Horus Heresy General /hhg/

The Beast Must Die.

Ah. In that case I'm pretty sure he means don't look an Ork in the eye, and eat its face off before it eats yours off.

POLK HAS SPOKEN

...

That's unfortunate

Welcome to the Blood Angels. The mandatory assault cannon is on the door to the left, if you feel like being a shooty suicidal guy the hand flamers are to the right. The Perdition Blades are in the room in the middle of the hallway. Be sure not to get lost as the back hallway leads to the Dark Angels's Ark of the Covenant(they really have it as a relic). We have to share the same office building, but none of us want to drop the "Angels" from our names. It's a lot better than the Fists/Warriors shared office complex. Trust me on that.

Damn it.
First it was the World Eaters after a long time of indecisiveness, then the Dark Angels. Now Duncan's painting video got me warmed up for WE again.
Pros and cons are really not of any importance here as both are similar in a manner of speaking.
The only thing standing out is that DA support more builds, but that way is really punishing for the wallet.

The iron "skull" helmet isn't bad. Can almost picture it in some old art (cue someone posting image of it from old art), but the bottom one could have used a more solid and bolted on looking plate like on the second from the right in . The MkII(?) helmet is kak.

I really like the old IW MkIII helmet. Far more than the FW one. Lucky for me, I got a few of them and at some point, hopefully with plastic MkIIIs, I'm going to cast extras and make at least a Breacher unit with those helmets and Anvilus backpacks.

Bread dead?

Nah, I'm just busy working on my LR Exterminator and I'll be going to sleep soon.

SA or IM?
I'm at work so I'm up for some heretical doscussion.

IM, my friend.

A shame you can't use sponson MMs, I'll just call them count-as HBolters.

Pic related.

It's my first vehicle model

Nice, I have to unpack my Mars pattern Rhino and Land Raider, looking forward to it.
I suppose you're on the loyalist side?

So are 4 point stars an IW thing?

Literally the first time ive seen them is on the conversion bits

That's a point. Did any of the traitors start putting horns on their helmets during the heresy? (Don't want to make an army like that, by the way, just wondered.)

Pic sort of related, lots of stuff from 40k is getting callbacks in 30k.

Maybe.

I'm looking to start Iron Warriors once I've saved up enough and painted all my stuff up, I feel like fluffing them up as loyalist IWs.

Here's my color scheme for my army.

Same, I've heard people say it's for Texas or the Unification Wars.

SA all day erryday. Pick the human team that looks like a much sexier Astra Militarum. Unless of course you've got a great theme for your IM, in which case definitely still use SA models because they're the shit.

The infantry are a bit tall though.

His face looks like he's taking a moderately painful shit

>pick glorified scuba divers over khakis and a lasgun

Do you even proper Army?

>scuba divers

You fucking bet, they look awesome. The only AM models that come close are the Kasrkin troopers. Vostroyans look dope but are better suited for IM. Solar Auxilia rock the steampunk 10,000 Leagues Under the Sea IN SPAAAACE look and it's beautiful.

If you enjoy canc- I mean steampunk.

Personally I dislike the bolted on gloves and boots, as well as the tanks that are from the 19th century. These guys are suppose to be the elite of the Army, the top tier, second only to Marines, yet they don't have rhinos, land raiders, etc. Army had those things, but SA don't. Instead they get vehicles and weapons that make Kriegers look advanced. They do not fit the bill.

Do you already have a colour scheme?
If I did IW, I'd definitely do loyalists, maybe even without the stripes, as they were Perturabo's personal heraldic colours, and with the winged bolt of the 8th Expeditionary fleet.

As for me, I'm still unsure on whether I should to Ravenwing or Ironwing, or both.

I think they look great for voidwar operations. Though I realise the problem with that is that the SA aren't fluffed as a pure voidwar force.

Oh, the colorscheme I posted is for the guardsmen/tank, if that's what you meant?

>as they were Perturabo's personal heraldic colours
Didn't know that, actually.

>winged bolt of the 8th Expeditionary fleet
?

Though, I'm more than likely going to do the stripes. I quite like them.

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand they're the best-armoured human infantry GW have ever produced. Their lasrifles are better than those in the Army. Their shock troops are better than the regular Army. Their mainstay transports are better armed and armoured than Rhinos with a better transport capacity to boot, and they have access to Arvus lighters when the situation requires.
Their tanks are void- and trench-ready. The tanks operate in squadrons that benefit from one another, and they can outflank. Not sure Kriegers can do that. Plus they have Volkite demi-culverins.
SA are pretty much better in every way to the regular Army.

Yeah, I had a brainfart. Tanks will be the same scheme?

Both the stripes and the facemask are his heraldry, so yes, although the stripes are part of the appeal for IW.

Aye, though I'm not sure if/how I should do the camo. Thinking maybe a banded camo with Pallid Wych Flesh/ Abbadon Black bands around Caledor Sky spots.

For bases, I'm going to do Stirland Mud with a terminatus stone drybrus and maybe some sprue 'rocks' sprinkled around. Still not sure what color to make them. Celestra Grey with Pallid Wych Flesh? I dunno. Going to use this as their bases as if it looks good then I'll definitely use it on my future IW for a 'mud in the trenches' sort of worn down look.

>builds a fortress that holds back 9 traitor legions while only 3 man it
>lends a hand and stops the first BC in its tracks
>doesn't accomplishments anything

Choose one

Don't forget he was a good daddy and his sons went on to be total badasses

Still a faggot.
Dorn and Guilliman couldn't simply do mind their own goddamn business, but had to shit over others' and alienate other primarchs.
Also, post-heresy shitfest that is the Imperium is mostly their doing.

>The Legions are clearly too powerful, lets place arbitrary restrictions upon them to forever more prevent space marines from being an effective fighting force.

Accidental namefagging is accidental.

>Their mainstay transports are better armed and armoured than Rhinos with a better transport capacity to boot

Well so is a Chimera as well, so I guess IG is better than Marines.

>have access to Arvus lighters

So does Militia. Meanwhile Marines get Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks, etc.

>Their tanks are void- and trench-ready.

So should Marine ones.

>Not sure Kriegers can do that.

Yet Krieger stuff doesn't look like it rolled in from 19th century steampunk.

>SA are pretty much better in every way to the regular Army.

Yet they don't look it. They look like feudal world void armoured troopers with Lucius pattern lasguns and tanks that make Russes look high-tech.

For an army that's suppose to be second only to the Marines, they surely should get to use all the Imperial vehicles Army was known to use, such as Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. But they don't get them. And if they don't get those things, I fear regular Army won't get them either, which is contrary to the fluff. At that point it's clear this isn't 30k, this is 40k with a lot more Marines.

This dude has helmet-horns, and looking at his possessed mates (+all the Gal Vorbak) it's really not such a stretch that some traitors might have taken to wearing horned helmets.

Division into chapters wasn't that much a bad thing such as creation of the Adepta and instituting the High Lords.

and if they'd done that, everybody would be calling FW a bunch of cheapasses.

While i am all for issuing Landraiders and Rhino's to the SA and IA, i feel the unique vehicles are neat too. If anything i'd imagine that Rhino's and stuff are mainstay, but both arms would develop their own, specialized units for roles that Marines did not encounter a whole lot.

The division into chapters also restricted their ability to obtain armaments, maintain self sustaining fleets and recruit as they see fit. Pretty much neutered any Legions ability to be self sufficient.

So Curze is confirmed the best Primarch?

>everybody would be calling FW a bunch of cheapasses.

No, only retards who don't know the fluff. And everyone who did know it would point and laugh.

>unique vehicles are neat too

So have both!

Well that's the idea, isn't it? If a Chapter decided to get uppity and break from the Imperium, they're suddenly without a good supply line and the rebellion should crumble. That's not how it ended up working, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

Can anyone confirm if the Mk2 despoiler kit from FW is compatible with the BAC stuff?

By compatible I mean that the hands are separate from the arms. The Mk2 kit has pics showing that it is so, but Mk3 doesn't have the bits.

sorry I meant if the Mk3 kit is compatible

How come you can dream about primarchs? I havent dreamt about anything 30k since kid-Scoria.

>to forever more prevent space marines from being an effective fighting force
Space marine chapters are pretty fucking effective, considering a major part of the codex was adding in actual recruiting standards. They just can't single handedly topple the imperium anymore. You'll notice he also split up the various non-marine military organizations.

Until Vandire loopholed his way into power over most aspects of the imperium, the division of the army/marines did its job pretty dang well.

As far as I'm aware, the hands should be separate. The models are compatible with the weapon packs FW makes.

There are some exceptions aren't there? I mean the Black Templar Crusade Fleets are self-sufficient, and total to far more than 1000 marines.

Oh that's right. Thanks!

Then they are perfect for making veteran tacticals

BT are pretty much to chapter strength now. And IH got turned into a more codex chapter instead of each company being like a mini-chapter with their own scouts, terminators, etc.

Kek
>They look like feudal world void armoured troopers with Lucius pattern lasguns and tanks that make Russes look high-tech.
Their void diver theme looks nice. But, like with the different versions of stormtroopers, I wonder if they all look like void divers. HH4 seems to imply they do.
Old lore said the whole IM had access to Anvillus' Land Raiders, but now only the survivors of the Old Night have access to them.
They still lose rights to them after Istvaan V though

>They still lose rights to them after Istvaan V though

The Emperor may decree that only Marines get Land Raiders, but enforcing that rule is a different thing. You can't just take transports from whole regiments without providing alternatives. And certain high ranking officials probably won't take too kindly to some pencil pusher coming to tell them that the king has decided that they must hand their battle tanks over at once. The Emperor wasn't the god figure among the population back then as he is in 40k.

And Rhinos, Speeders, etc. were never made Marines only.

might be a production issue? If a full scale war breaks out, and Rhino production is not sufficient, wouldn't they opt to arm second rate formations with a simpler design, just to be able to produce more transports in the same timeframe?

Much like the Panther Tank was a simplification on the Panzer IV (costing about the same, while easier to build)

>Crusade Fleets are self-sufficient
Even the black templars rely on the imperium for raw resources and manufacturing. They also don't conquer and seize worlds for themselves.

There are plenty of exceptions to the organizational/doctrinal aspects of the codex, but no modern space marines act in the same capacity as the legions did.

only exception i can think of is the Bedab war, and even that one is rather poor example at that

The Rhino IS a simple design. That's why it has the repair rule, because you can just hammer it into a working order in the middle of a battle.

>If a full scale war breaks out

You mean, like, I dunno, the Great Crusade that's been raging for the last few centuries? It'd be shame if that era of peace and disarmament was to suddenly cease and a war broke out.

It's not exactly cheap to set up a whole new production line to start producing tanks to replace the other tanks either. Nor do all the tanks already in use by the vast armies of the Imperium vanish overnight and new tanks replace them like that.

>Panther Tank was a simplification on the Panzer IV

The two were nothing alike. They had totally different designs, philosophies, etc.

>might be a production issue? If a full scale war breaks out, and Rhino production is not sufficient, wouldn't they opt to arm second rate formations with a simpler design, just to be able to produce more transports in the same timeframe?
Well that's the reason the LRs got restricted to marines only: the FW Anvillus was lost, so marines has to requisition all surviving LRs from the IM, and the (relatively) meager production of LRs could only attend the astartes

Not entirely, the Great Crusade is a very different kind of conflict, where demands for war material is nowhere near the demand for equipment during the HH, where the loss of men and equipment was substantially higher then during the Great crusade. combine this with the need to replace entire armies, legions and fleets, (as opposed to fighting a series of smaller, at best, sector wide wars that happened for most of the Great Crusade) the picture changes quite profoundly, and demands will be substantially higher due to the scope being far larger.

As for the Panther, Panzer IV, the Panther was envisioned to be the next main line tank of the German tank force, hence, unlike the Tiger, steps were taken to simplify the design as much as possible for ease of manufacture, hence, if you compare the price per tonne, that of the Panther is substantially lower then of the panzer IV, despite being 20 tonnes heavier. For comparison, its 117,00 Reichsmark for a Panther compared to the 103,000 for a Panzer IV.

secondly, ease of manufacture and simple design are 2 separate things, consider the following, Is the Rhino Hull cast, or made up from seperate armor plates welded (or whatever they do) together? does it come with extensive life support systems? does it have a large quantity of electronic systems, or perhaps it uses a lot of expensive alloys that are costly and time consuming to make?
hence, a simple design to use and repair, can be time consuming to build, which is fine when production capacity outstrips demand (Great Crusade) but becomes a major issue the moment demand begins to outstrip supply. sure you can do some simplifications, replace 2 piece doors with a single hatch, replace the 2 separate frontal armored plates and vision slits with a single one, etc. But at one point, there will be a moment that you cannot keep up, and that is the point that your operational strength drops, and high command will issue a new requirement for fixing this shortfall

Keeping with this, now imagine that the demand for Rhino's is 15.000 replacement units per month. Production after simplification is say 7.000 units a month, meaning an 8000 unit shortfall that needs to be made up in another way.

Now imagine the time to build a single Rhino is 2000 man hours. Now the friends over in the Mechanicum state that only the Legiones Astartes need Rhino's and other IA and SA formations will be issued with a new transport.

Enter the Chimera, which is a cast hull, and uses many civilian parts in construction, rather then costly and time consuming components, so the time to build these drops to to say, 400 hours per unit.

Now the Legiones Astartes have a lower attrition rate, hence, the demand for Rhino's drop to say, 3000 a month, leaving you with 4000 Rhino's in spare capacity.

Now given that Forgeworld Veeky Forums is capable of producing 7000 Rhino's a month, only has to produce 3000 to fullfill demand, it can direct that production capacity to something else, in this case the chimera.
Now, in hours, they are capable of producing 5 Chimera's for every Rhino, hence, the Forgeworld produces 20.000 chimera's a month, this would be enough to full fill the 12.000 unit demand, while at the same time, replace hard to build artillery carriers (basilisks, etc) with a cheaper chassis that uses, for the most part, the same parts.

less than a week, hold on to your butts for:

Vultarax stratos automata rules + model for sale.
Thanatar-Cynis model for sale.
Secutarii Hoplites, Peltasts, Psiloi and Phalangites rules and Secutarii army list rules, not for sale yet.
Knight Porphyrion rules updated, not for sale yet.

Leman Russ completed model preview.
Model preview for SW Húskarls unique unit.
Model preview for TS Cephalon Psy-Automata unique unit.

Can confirm the MKIII despoilers hands are desperate from the arms.

Source on these!?

Don't you get my hopes up user...

>was envisioned

Until that idea was scrapped and they started studying the T-34 and figure how to use its properties. And then Hitler got (once again) involved and made them put more armour and a bigger gun on it.

>ease of manufacture and simple design are 2 separate things

Wait, didn't you just say "steps were taken to simplify the design as much as possible for ease of manufacture"? Both affect each other. If you have a gun that has 50 parts, it's not as easy to make as a similar gun with 30 parts.

Also, we have to remember that WW2 German manufacturing was bit of a shit. They didn't have American style assembly lines. Even Russians had factories built by the dude who made the factories in Detroit. And Brits weren't afraid to squeeze every penny and make machine guns out of bed springs and motorcycle exhausts, and bombers out of furniture.

At the end of the day, we can come up with various excuses for Army to use Chimeras over Rhinos (did Chimeras even exist during HH?), but before they just come out and tell us "no, Army isn't going to get Rhinos because fuck you, that's why," they should have Rhinos. There's no reason not to have Rhinos. The Emperor didn't say that all 40k Marine units are Marine only in 30k as well, he just moved Land Raiders to Marines. And even that didn't stick that well, seeing that Survivors of the Dark Age get to field Land Raiders just fine. Rhinos, Speeders, etc. should just as well be used by Marines as Army. Marines were just a military force among all the others. They weren't mythical warrior gods of 40k. And there is fluff (for example, 4e Codex: IG) indicating that by the end of the Crusade, Army was taking up the offensive and going at it alone without Marine assistance. So they weren't just second tier mop-up crews.

>Model preview for SW Húskarls unique unit.

So, 30k wolf guard. I expect either legion specific command squad or an Elite unit that's like command squad (PA or TDA).

>admech admech admech admech
yawn

When I say that I know shit better than anyone, you should believe me because I'm physically handicapped and cursed to have tufts of shit stuck to my ass' hair all day long that I'm unable to remove (until I get home and can use a long-handled brush) that stew within my buttock's stream of sweat from my generalized hyperhydrosis. And when I read this, I know it smells more bullshitty than myself.

But you know, I hope it's true. I like the sound of huskarl sand cephalon robots.

When the traitor legion falled some would worship the chaos gods, and would likely get signs of corruptions, be that of horns or other things.

Amon, Magnus equarry, had a hornet helmet during the great crusade, the one Ahriman currently wears in 40k.

>maybe even without the stripes, as they were Perturabo's personal heraldic colours
you sure about that? source?

Yes, Curze is the boss.

Amon's an interesting character. While a lot of BL books use equerries and other members of elite coteries (Mournival, Trident, etc.) as POV characters, Amon never came out of the shadows. You only ever see him from other characters' eyes, and rarely at that. I do like some mystery in my warhams.

He was apparently commander of the TS scouts.

Could this be done?

If you build it, they will come

Seriously. The place has become a war zone with the subtly of a cold war. Perturabo's too paranoid and fatalistic and Dorn's too uncompromising. Some of the marines want the place to become a regular office building, but none of them think it's their place to tell their primarchs to tear down the walls.

The chainglaives are so unbearably...lame/average.
I normally don't like EC because of the colour scheme, yet I love their new power spears, but fuck me if FW wasn't giving any shit when they made the chainglaives. Litteraly stuck a chainsword on a plastic rod and called it a day. They could have at least tried to give it a special form, something that would make them recognisable. Right now you might as well make your own, they'll have more character, and will be much cheaper.

I think they look fine.

Agreed. Sevatar's looks awesome, why didn't they use that as a template?

Our own podcast? I think that could either be a horrible mistake or something good.

he's not wearing a horned helmet he has fucking horns growing through hit body out his armour. It's a side effect of warp exposure. Chaos marines didn't just decide to wear horned helms thank god cos that would be even more retarded

Regular office building? But where do the trenches go? And the ramparts?
Ooh, you mean mock offices that We can flood with phosphex when we fall back, got it.
It's a shame that the perfect fortress, the one not even a combined force of BA and SoH could take, would be one designed by both IF and the IW.
Imagine, a mighty fortress surrounded by earthworks, IW precision artillery, IF Tank Hunters HW squads working alongside IW havocs on the fortress, while Fearless IW marines rally around the IF's living yellow walls led by their Marshals and Seneschals.
I would go full Kalkator-Magneric, it could have been Great...

>Regular office building? But where do the trenches go? And the ramparts?
>Ooh, you mean mock offices that We can flood with phosphex when we fall back, got it.
It's a little bit of both. At first it was an office building but everything changed when the Iron Warriors sneaked in a Typhon.

Wasn't the actual Perfect Fortress (the one the Raven Guard did take) designed to have all the defences integrated into the city itself?

didn't change that, if anything, the only 2 tanks more common in 44 then the Panther was the Panzer IV and the STuG's.

secondly, do not confuse second rate units to what essentially boils down to a garrison, but in times of shortage, every institution will make choices in assigning assets to units.

I'm fine with either, although i feel that FW should force Imperial army players (and SA for that matter) pick between 3 periods, early, middle or late heresy, each of them giving certain boni and access to equipment they otherwise cannot field

Are you talking about Gate 42 or something?
Dunno, but it only feels natural to make the enemy bleed to even reach the walls. I'm thinking about Vauban's Citadel of Lille, which could flood the lands outside its walls to make it difficult to attack an already well designed fortification.
Poor Vauban -- his greatness was on the attack rather than defense. Kinda like a reverse Perturabo.

>pick between 3 periods, early, middle or late heresy, each of them giving certain boni and access to equipment they otherwise cannot field
I could see choosing either Early Crusade or Late Heresy, maybe that's fix that Ally table.
Still, Early Crusade would feel like giving up Termie armour to gain lots of volkite, the non-marine factions benefitting the most (as in Late Heresy fucks everything for everyone else).

Weren't the forces of Kyr Vhalen at the Siege of Terra?

>>builds a fortress that holds back 9 traitor legions while only 3 man it
If you know anything about military strategy you should know the absolute minimum recommended numerical superiority for assaulting a defensive position is a 3 to 1 numerical advantage. However, 5 to 1 or 10 to 1 is much better, 3 to 1 is for attacking shit like a platoon with no heavy weapons hiding behind a small ridge. In other words either the loyalists really fucking sucked or Dorns defenses were less useful than just digging shallow trenches.

>lends a hand and stops the first BC in its tracks
And dies.

>doesn't accomplishments anything
Compared to everyone else he is kind of shit.

Do you know the absolute minimum recommended numerical superiority for assaulting a defensive position from space, with 4 gods on your side? Because somehow I feel like that is a figure that hasn't been calculated.

Last time I heard of him he was inventing new swear words in Paramar, but the fact his tale is known would mean they contact Terra somehow.>Compared to everyone else he is kind of shit.
Almost all Primarch's achievements fall short when compared to Guilliman, Fulgrim, Horus and the like.
At least Dorn was there when he was needed. Few loyalists can make such a boast.

Then bring 12 gods of your own? Gotta do the best with what you've got.
Or Drop the shields, whichever you deem the most appropiate :^)

Don't forget the traitors had uncontested orbital superiority as well as multiple Titan legions and auxillia/warp cults. I don't think it was just 9 traitor legions