It's a "the antagonists that have been trying to kill you all campaign are actually misunderstood good guys" session

"You are the monsters" and "Everyone's a monster" are both shit-tier. If lycanthropes run about murdering humans in retaliation for us killing them, they're just proving the point.

Want us to stop killing you? Then come over and we'll talk over some beers and let both sides speak.

>"the antagonists that have been trying to kill you all campaign are actually the Sheriff's men who want talk to you about some killings you were involved in, earlier."

Physical or Moral high ground? This is important, I need to know how quickly I can manage to master my Spinning.

How did that happen?

We... kill them anyway?

The monsters are obviously the monsters, but when you call them out they'll nail you with the compelling argument of 'No U'. Which is fine, you just accept the label and do what you've gotta do rather than arguing about it like a gooner.

>"If you kill me then you'll be just like me!!!"
>"I just wanted to make the world a better place!"
Gray """"morals"""" suck.

Well maybe you should stop attacking everyone with a weapon who isn't you, eh?

What are some good motivations for bad guys to be bad?

Money, power

Protagonist centred morality.

>the antagonists is just neutral character you pissed off by unintentionally wrecking all his plans
How often this happens?

Having a different opinion.

how the fuck did we get 4u from that
/tv/ needs to stop forever

Women.

Proper grey morals are more along the lines of "I fucked over all those [insert racist term] to improve the lives of my people. No regrets."

I can do this all day
I am enlighyened cleric of Bane

As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster. To me, being a gangster was better than being President of the United States. Even before I first wandered into the cabstand for an after-school job, I knew I wanted to be a part of them. It was there that I knew that I belonged. To me, it meant being somebody in a neighborhood that was full of nobodies. They weren't like anybody else. I mean, they did whatever they wanted. They double-parked in front of a hydrant and nobody ever gave them a ticket. In the summer when they played cards all night, nobody ever called the cops.

Making the world* a better** place.¤
* may not be equivalent to or directly continuous with/from other interpretations of what constitutes the/a "world".
** relative to one particular person's opinion
¤ may occupy only conceptual or virtual space
GET READY TO GET TANGED BITCHES

Just wants to hurt people?

REVENGE!

>GM reveals I was the evil twin all along, and after I killed my good twin (years ago), the party had my memories wiped so I'd think I was him and they wouldn't have to let go

Wat do?

Money
Sick gains
Political power
Revenge for some slight real or imagined
Utopian vision (corresponds well with #3)
Jealousy

>greed
Good
>clash of interests
Maybe
>Helen of Troy
Hmmmm....
>dark gray morality
Nope
>madness
Boring but okay
>culture
Orcs orcs orcs orcs
>zey killd my family and my cat better kill them back at any cost and cause sooo much collateral damage
Ugh

Entertainment.

Who cares? So long as you think you have the memories of the good twin, it doesn't matter who you really were.

What about the truth, user? Would the good twin want me to facilitate their continued living in denial? And if I'm the evil twin, does that mean I should do the opposite of what he wanted?

But if I'm supposed to think I'm him, doesn't that mean I should do exactly what he would have wanted?

Being a faerie and having an alien system of morals.

>Insulted? Time to KILL A BABY!

Just be the person you are now, not the one you used to be.

Honestly trying to make the world a better place, but thinks the best way to do that is to wipe out another (note entirely bad) race.

Which does the character prefer (assuming he has both memory sets now).

If he only has one memory set, why does it matter?

>the truth
Who cares? You're a different person now than you were before.
>what would he want
Who cares what he wants, he's dead.

Wouldn't you be worried if you found out you weren't really who you thought you were? What else is a lie? And don't your friends deserve to know the truth?

Hunger.

>>dark gray morality
>Nope
By your logic Hitler's a bad villain, since he thought the world would be better without Jews in it.

>Wouldn't you be worried if you found out you weren't really who you thought you were?
No, because I am, in fact, exactly who I thought I am. The continuation of consciousness is the entirety of the self. If I have the same memories and think the same thoughts, then I am the same person.

Damn, I've seen the mindwiped villain plotline before and forgotten completely where I saw it.

Usurp the thrones, both of them.

The thing is.

By definition, you are always who you think you are. Your memories define you, what you remember is what /you/have experienced.

Would I be uncomfortable with my /history/ beign different then what I thought it was? Yes. KOTOR, it was Revan.

Yes it was, I guess that shows how much of an impression it left on me.

Pfft, other than political megalomaniacs and shit, the whole "power" thing is a bit stupid.

Some of the worst things done by people not at the head of an army were done for money/prestige/spreading ideas rather than just "I want to lord over you muahaha!"

Probably around the time you smashed up a guy's store over can of coke.
But more likely when you held a fast food joint at gunpoint over a burger.

Gotta deal with that anger dude, life's tough on everyone.

I think we could all learn a lot from the Goblin Slayer.

Wanting to be a big man and not understanding the proper consequences of actions.
upon being faced with the destruction he's wrought the BBEG falls to his knees and throws up. He tries to keep face but you can tell how deeply guilty and embarrassed he is for everything he's done

Boredom.

Because it's the only thing they're good at.

Sorry I forgot my picture.

>It's a bad guys are people too episode

You know I'm pretty fucking sure the "monsters" would be shitposting in a cave somewhere (maybe they actually communicate with shit?) the exact same sentiments about you.

Can a robot be a hero?

Could've been worse.

>Uwe Boll made a good movie within your lifetime.

...

I was half expecting a "You Died" to show up on the screen

Yeah, why not?

Don't worry, he lived that time

Nope, never once seen that.

I just don't like it when GMs try to browbeat the party with moral conundrums like that. Having an antagonist whose motivations make sense beyond wanting to burn down the puppy orphanage for fun is important of course, but you shouldn't play take away and say that it was a trick the whole time.

>Genocide
>dark gray
Are you stupid, autistic or both?

Villainy as intellectual exercise, manifest destiny or just because they simply do not give a fuck about you, your crew or anything you hold dear. As ants are to humans, the protagonists are to the villain.

The best way to make a villain organization that is both believably and realistically evil and yet also unambiguously and obviously evil is to have that organization practice Blood In Blood Out.

Isn't it better to think in terms of antagonist? Villains and bad guys is pretty narrow.

>game boils down to trying to teach players a lesson

Fuck that shit.

I did not come to be taught how my morality is shit and I should take my head out of my ass and shove it up yours.

I agree. It should never be "oh no, it turns out we were in the wrong the whole time" but instead it should be "we knew from the beginning that X character wasn't wholly bad however their motivations/moral compass conflicts with our own and we decided to defend our own interests"

>the antagonists that have been trying to kill you all campaign
no
fuck you
I hate this kind of bullshit

This is why I either play chaotic evil or lawful good, so that I won't let this slide and "I don't give a shit about your supposedly good intentions, you made a mistake by trying to kill me and my friends and you must pay for it"

this

if you play it well enough it isn't even the bad guys anymore.

>"I murdered the entire royal family, fucked up all the countries that could oppose my reign and now the people rejoice in the best time of peace since centuries while I bath in their taxes, no longer needed to be spent on warfare. Why the fuck are you going to kill me for? For literally making the country a better place? Retards like you need to be put in place"

>It's a "Nobody knows who's the good guys anymore" kind of session

"You are the monsters" and "Everyone's a monster" are both shit-tier. If humans run about murdering lycanthropes in retaliation for us killing them, they're just proving the point.

Want us to stop killing you? Then come over and we'll talk over some fresh meat and let both sides speak.

The party I'm running a game for are the bad guys though although they generally will do the right thing if it benefits them.
>The antagonists they're fighting who are clearly misunderstood bad guys... are secretly incredibly corrupt and nigh on bringing about apocalyptic events

a subtle kek to you user

Considering you've been doing good for who knows how long now, and you haven't reverted back to a life of evil, keep adventuring as a good guy, and constantly use the brainwashing as a chip to get whatever you want from them

Are the female "Villians" out of a platinum game? Cause if so, this is fine

As long as the GM doesn't punish the party for the decision, I don't see anything wrong with revealing the villain to have had a troubled past or their own set of morally acceptable goals and ideals. If they want to finish off the guy that actively tried to slaughter them like dogs, then be my guest, but don't be so easily swayed and start thinking I'm trying to guilt trip you when you find out he was his own person with a vision and morals. Fleshing out a character doesn't always mean someone's trying to make a point or paint you in a certain light for your actions. Sometimes things just are, and you should be able to stand by your own decisions given the circumstances and information without getting upset because things turned out differently than expected.

That said, there are absolutely cheap and unsavory ways of handling the matter, ones which often result in an inappropriate tonal shift or just feel like a poor attempt of making fools out of the party, but I don't think there should be a stigma around non-evil antagonists either.

Because it's the thing that makes you happy.

i know , it is an ugly truth and makes things a lot harder than they already are.

finding reasons why you believe what you think is right is the only countermeasure.

>clearly LE behavior
>instead LG or CE

Thanks to /tv/ i have been forced to ban all worshippers of bane from my dnd games.

Thanks you faggots.

learning from goblin slayer would require reading it, which i wouldn't do to my worst enemies.

>As ants are to humans, the protagonists are to the villain.
This one is actually cliché as hell.
It's acceptable if you can sell it. Fire up vocaroo and give us your best villainous "omoshiroi," please.

just do whatever that is the most effective
what else is there

What's wrong with ye olde bute newe Goblin Slayer?

It depends on what you mean by "misunderstood"

People who do evil shit but genuinely believe, as in completely without a shred of doubt, that what they're doing is good is kind of interesting in a frightening broken mind/zealotry kind of way

People who are fucking evil but indirectly through their actions cause good are also interesting, because it creates the problem for the players of eliminating the evil also causing a net reduction of good in the world

People who are genuinely evil but tries to justify their actions with "but its for the greater good" or "but it won't matter in the end" is bullshit that needs to stop

Played a game where the BBEG was basically fantasy Pablo Escobar. They were sadistic, calculating, outwardly very violent, and held ambition to gain power and territory through their guerrilla army financed by not!cocaine. But loyal men/women within the cartel are rewarded generously with food and wages better then what most poor could expect in an agricultural/manufacturing job, so their was a huge flood of poor youths joining their cartel and sending remittances home. Even though it totally wasn't their intention, their loyalty scheme ended up supporting huge swaths of fantasy Columbia's poor.

We still shot the bastard dead though, we were PC's after all

Mighty Max handled it best.

>"If you kill me, you'll be no BETTER than me!"
>"I can live with that."

>As ants are to humans, the protagonists are to the villain
Except by default people don't actively try to destroy and torment ants. All of this shit of being so superior empathy was impossible shit falls flat considering how common it is for people NOT to murder every small creature they find.

ant was maybe a bad analogy
what about
the mosquito

Mosquito is the deadliest animal when measured in total deaths due to disease transmission. If the protagonists are mosquitos they're propagating massive destruction by just existing.

sounds right to me

"No I won't. After all, you'll be dead."

attempt to kill them or die to them. if the DM tries to prevent either, walk off as soon as he starts talking. This is necessary to make sure he never tries to pull this stupid shit ever again.

Evil exists in the eye of the beholder. Players are generally inclined to believe the people who work against them are evil, but that doesn't particularly matter because their ethical standards are no more valid than any other set of ethical standards.

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do - I'm the GM and I won't stop you from torching orphanages and peddling drugs to kids if that's what you feel you should do - but your opinion is just your opinion and other peoples' opinions are just their opinions.

weeb pedophile faggot go back to your containment board

Show me the last time one of your DnD games warped reality, and then maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.

Gonna need it, because I don't think you can fly so good.