Cyberpunk 2077 Thread

Previous thread: suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/48185231/

So last time a bunch of anons came together and made a cyberpunk setting set in 2077 where the Japanese economic bubble never burst. Here are some of the details for the world
>Japan is a major economic power in East Asia
>The South Koreans won the Korean War
>China is split by the Orange River with the communist People's Republic of China in the north and the Republic of China in the south
>The USSR has expanded to the Middle East and North Africa, taking over areas such as Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, ect...
>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population
>Germany is a major producer of tanks, luxury cars, trains, and firearms
>American corps have established many operations in the Banana Republics, exploiting them for resources and drugs
>Heavier reliance on sustainable and nuclear energy
>Some technologies in this new future are: robots for recreational use (as well as some experimental military ones), mechanical transplants, lab-grown meats, exoskeletion suits, smartguns, and augmentations

Here is the google doc for those that want to make suggestions for the world:
docs.google.com/document/d/1xVFbFnROjO4Tz1YOoX9SaiYO-PxBdNR9IBCd_1cCcjU/edit

Now let's start off with some questions:
>What's going on in Europe? How are the French and British reacting to the new strength of Germany?
>Let's figure out some corps. What are some examples of Japanese corps? American? German? Russian? Chinese?
>How far removed is South Africa from the Muslim-Russian struggle in the northern regions of the continent?
>Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?
>How common are augmentations?
>Does Japan only dominate Pan-Pacific trade or does their influence reach to Europe and the Near East? What about Germany?

Pic is a map of the current borders of East Asia (with Japan in corner)

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=PCblCImmgu8
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn)
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

I kinda do not like the how China is split up. I think RoC should just stay in Taiwan. Why? It would led to a far, far weaker China for my suggestion. So you have Russia expanding in Asia and Middle East, which China somewhat regards as its sphere of influence. China would absolutely hate this and probably fight some wars with the USSR over this. We can make it so that the wars cost both the USSR and China economically and socially. We can make it so that the Republic of China (Taiwan) has made revolutionary groups backed by Korea, Japan, and the United States of America. I feel like this can led to way more interesting social, political and economical impacts throughout the setting. For example on the news we can hear about "freedom fighters/terrorist" bombing some government building in Beijing. Plus it can led a war between Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and United States to restore the Republic of China. Or that can be the back story behind that.

The revolutionary groups would be based in People's Republic

So during the Chinese Civil War, the Communists fought the Nationalists but couldn't force them to surrender so the Nationalists sought refuge in Taiwan and built a new government there? I do think though that the RoC would try to retake some mainland cities, possibly the nearby Hong Kong. The only thing I don't get is why the majority of China (which is communist) would be fighting Russia (a major superpower). If it was the RoC with capitalist backing, I could imagine that though. I think the RoC would be too busy with the PRC to make attacks on Russia though.

If you study Cold War history you would know after the Sino-Soviet split the Chinese and Soviets had small border wars. In this setting's timeline these border wars ended up the same way but both countries still vastly disliked each other over these. So later on, when the Soviets expand, the Chinese feel threaten by this. The Chinese build up their military along the Sino-Soviet border. Some incident happened which sparked into another border war that then quickly escalated into a full blown war after talks broke down. The Chinese were able to capture a decent amount of land and the Soviets countered attack. The war is in a stalemate. I'll make another comment about the social issues and Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and United States role.

>after the Sino-Soviet split the Chinese and Soviets had small border wars
Wow did not know this. Thank you.

This map is just full of shit and so detatched from any political reality it's not even funny.

To make it simple the Nationalists will be the revolutionaries that Taiwan/Republic of China backs.

During the war between USSR and the Chinese, Taiwan inserts propaganda (can make a cool cyberpunk quest) into the Chinese public. The propaganda shows that the Chinese government lied about things about the war and Chinese troops committing war crimes. This cause Nationalist groups pop up and start rebeling against China. They bomb, take out top officials and other acts of terror. The Chinese government calls the Nationalist terrorist and massacres a decent chunk. Taiwan, Korea, Japan, United States, ANZAC, and the UK decides that China has gone too far and intervenes. In the West, there's resentment due to apparent imperialistic actions but is positively accepted in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. Anyways the Blue Dragons (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, US, ANZAC, and the UK) helped the Nationalist to capture what is shown on the map. During this time the Chinese Government signs a peace treaty with the Soviets. The peace treaty reverted territories back to preborder war but China is forced to pay the Soviets. Anyways, the Civil War and the War with the Soviets greatly weakened China.

OP here. Didn't make the map, it was just posted in the previous thread by another user. What would you change about it?

I wrote out a decent explanation in these two posts

What's the point of this alternate CP2020 timeline? The original CP2020 is already an alternate timeline in which Japan is quite powerful.

This is a great explaination. So to sum up:
>Chinese Civil War splits China in two. The RoC is forced into Taiwan as a result
>The PRC strengthens their northern border due to fears of Russian invasion due to their expansion in the Middle East
>War breaks out and grinds to a halt
>Taiwan/RoC inserts propaganda in the Chinese public to disrupt the public and sow distrust. This works and Nationalist groups pop up in the PRC and commit acts of terror (possibly led by Taiwanese agents)
>Communist China retaliates by purging many Nationalists. This causes other countries (namely Taiwan, Korea, Japan, the US, and the UK) to intervene
>The intervention garners a bad reputation in the US but other East Asian countries celebrate it.
>The capitalist forces push back the PRC and recapture parts of mainland China for the RoC
>This leads to a peace treaty with the Soviets and the PRC is forced to pay the USSR, which in turn leads it to a weakened state.

Only question is what Germany is doing during this engagement. Do they involve themselves?

Everything. It literally makes no fucking sense.

1) You've got united Korea. A SERIOUS stretch already, but probably the only thing possible in the entire map
2) You have ROC that magically lands on the continent and takes over entire south of China - HOW THE FUCK you even imagine that? ROC was pushed away, because it lacked any support from rural population. After a generation under Mao people would fucking fight ROC soldiers with stones. Not to mention such "minor" inconvinience as in entire ROC population being smaller than People's Liberation Army or ROC not having any fleet capable of going back.
3) Korea is united and under ROC control. By means of magic, I guess?
4) Korea, under ROC, a relatively flat peninsuala, separated from rest of ROC, is not taken over by Communists just by throwing shitload of people on it, not to mention actual tactics.
5. Communists and Soviets are on war, they lose entire souther underbelly (the fucking granary of the nation) and somehow they not only still can feed their population, but stop full-scale Soviet invasion that would be in case of such magic inamment
6. Rest of the world does absolutely NOTHING

This is so fucking detatched from any plausability or just basic eco-political reality fucking Twilight 2013 starts sounding reasonable by comparision.

>not trying to make a different cyberpunk setting with some fa/tg/uys
come on user

>I don't understand international politics: The Post

Not him, but the original CP2020 setting was good as it was and now is a fun retro-future concept.
This thread is just bunch of random bullshit.

Not the user you are replying to but:
>Korea is united and under ROC control
Wrong. The South Koreans won the Korean War.
>Korea, under ROC, a relatively flat peninsuala, separated from rest of ROC, is not taken over by Communists just by throwing shitload of people on it, not to mention actual tactics.
See my previous comment.
>6. Rest of the world does absolutely NOTHING
But they do do something.

Nice try shiposter-kun

>muh realism

>random bullshit
Such as?

1) Not a complete stretch if you rewrite the Korean War history for the setting.
2) It's in a fictional setting somewhat based on reality plus you missed the part that a good chunk of the population are nationalist.
3) We can write it so there's a pan Asian NATO treaty mostly led by Japan and backed by the US. Of course the powers are different than NATO.
4) What? Korea, with support, can handle and protect itself.
5) The war ends in a stalemate and the treaty reverts land back to the original owners
6) US, Commonwealth, and the Pan Asia Alliance does something.

I quickly whipped up an explanation that can be added onto and fixed.

Well. Is the Warsaw Pac still around or nope? If yes, the Soviets would get support from Poland, Czech, and E. Germany. If nope, I'm not too entirely sure. Maybe we can write it so that Germany gives the Pan Asia alliance some assistance.

>fought wars with local muslim population

you know that Ethiopia is 80% christian right?

My bad, just mixed the two up after looking at the archive.

I don't know much about East European history so I don't know. I was imagining the Germans would give the Pan Asian Alliance assistance, though this would all depend on when the conflict takes place.

In the first thread (which was actually just extrapolation from a random "what-if"/"Explain X" question ) it was figured that the Chinese civil war was a stalemate and that the PRC was friendly with the Soviets in this timeline, in a not-quite-a-puppet way - there's no Sino-Soviet split

The RoC wasn't amazingly hot either, but they had a lot of economy in producing cheap copies of Japan's commercial tech

Fucking this. Thank god someone from the old thread is here. god knows how terrible I am at explaination. Wish more people would just read the old thread instead of complaining.

Hmm, so China is more like a North/South Korea and Vietnam setup. In my explanation I was somewhat trying to make things a little more interesting in the present day setting. Although my explanation would assert the Pan Asia Alliance and the West as the world powers which can make the setting a little more bland.

I honestly like the set up that was presented by mainly because it allows for more international politics and posturing without any need for multinational alliances and treaties. Also makes relations more tense I think, what with the interactions with the Koreans, their Japanese suppliers, the RoC (whom the Koreans support) and the PRC (who have a tenuous relationship with the Russians)

It is 250+ replies, and you didn't even link it.

I feel I should point out that the OP map doesn't have the RoC and Korea supporting each other, just on the same side.
But thanks, I agree that having the two Chinas both as lesser powers supported by major ones (not that they're happy about it) makes for a more interesting proposition

OP linked the archive of it. But I get what you mean about the long reply chain.

Sorry if it didn't come across clearly but I think what the map is trying to convey is that they are both blue/capitalist.

Are we not going to talk about how the flying fuck Japan's economy didn't collapse?

bump

Holy shit the amount of fucking autistic sperglords in this thread is extraordinary. I never knew people could be this autistic about a fucking pretend setting.

>Lack of basic logic is good
Kill yourself

>I quickly whipped up
That's the main problem, you idiot. Instead of thinking long and hard about setting that makes even a vestige of sense, you whipped bullshit out of your ass within few minutes and you are apparently amazed it doesn't make sense.

You contribute to the setting then, you autistic sperg

>What's going on in Europe? How are the French and British reacting to the new strength of Germany?
France never got over their Gaullism stage and have incorporated many of its overseas territories into France proper. It's mostly unconcerned with Germany as it realizes that it doesn't have to economic strength to compete against Titans like Japan, the USSR and America.

Britain remains relevant only in its political influence via the UN. The actual country never went through the resurgence of the 1980's, so its national industries continued to decline until they were made near irrelevant as British Industry simply collapsed under the strain of extensive subsidies, and continues to exist as shackles that slow British economic growth. London is still an important city, but the UK remains very weary of German industrial might and knows that it could easily be economically crippled by any of the major powers. With this economic stagnation and little hope for the future, the British youth increasely resort to crime.

>against Titans like Japan, the USSR and America.
I like that name for the world superpowers. France stepping away (like I imagine many other European countries would) is a realistic choice as well.
>Britain remains relevant only in its political influence via the UN
I can see the British government trying to exert power but failing to under the strain of the superpowers such as Russia and Germany (don't know if Germany would be a part of the UN, Japan definately would though)
>the UK remains very weary of German industrial might and knows that it could easily be economically crippled by any of the major powers.
Makes for an interesting dynamic how the UK (which used to be one of the world's main players) is now reduced to one that is heavily reliant on German/Japanese/American goods for support, especially the expansionist USSR moving into the Middle East.
>British youth increasingly resort to crime.
London turning into a hot bed for crime makes for an interesting setting, especially with the Russians trying to incite rebellion in Greece.

I would imagine Spain would more or less follow the French's lead though.

Spain would also probably faulter, potentially never democratizing as the fear of foreign influence is much too great. Maybe even become a hotzone or seperatists in this timeline (Spanish Civil war 2, electric boogaloo?).

Ireland may or may not be united. Depends on how weak we want to make the UK.

>Maybe even become a hotzone or seperatists
I don't see there being separatists though (unless we were gonna go the anti-capitalist/anti-christian route). I'm the wrong person to ask this though, since I'm more of an asian history guy.

It honestly could go either way with Ireland. They could take this opportunity to split away from England or stick with them for strength in numbers as well as a united Britain. I honestly would like them to stick together.

>How far removed is South Africa from the Muslim-Russian struggle in the northern regions of the continent?
South Africa is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. American and Japanese companies basically control the country, which is a post-apartheid market liberal state. Its parliament is still mostely white and the current PM is actually the son of a Japanese immigrant. Its valued for its mineral wealth but otherwise holds little importance.
>Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?
Probably a little bit longer to the point where Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first place. It would also justify feelings of uneasiness as a long term occupation would hammer the point home to the Japanese that a moments weakness could result in its further defeat and reoccupation from a predatory US or USSR.
Spain had basque seperatists throughout the 80's-90's. At worst, we could see an independent Basque Country.

>the current PM is actually the son of a Japanese immigrant.
Congrats on your election..er...Mr. Yonazawa?
>Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first place
This makes a lot of sense actually. A longer occupation would also justify a more nationalistic country (due to anti-American sentiment) and in response more trust in the JSDF would form. Maybe a rewriting of their constitution would come sooner.

>How common are augmentations?
Common and cheap enough that you can get a couple basic ones if you're solidly middle class. The lower-middle could maybe afford one basic ones if they're lucky, and the absolutely impoverished might result to illegal, jury-rigged augmentations performed by unlicensed specialists. Anything potentially dangerous is of course extremely restricted and is outright banned to any non-active military personal. However, the Yakuza have connections that they can use to their advantage to obtain some...higher quality equipment.

>Mr. Yonezawa
I rike it.

So the military has access to augs? Wouldn't this cause a huge scandal/controversy in the international community, especially among communities like the UN and the Pan Asian Alliance?

>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population
>>Germany is a major producer of tanks, luxury cars, trains, and firearms
>>American corps have established many operations in the Banana Republics, exploiting them for resources and drugs
Transplanting history a hundred years into the future does not make for the most intriguing setting

Also what's the status of Brazil, considering it's the country with the largest Japanese diaspora. Do we see a real dominance of the political scene by Japanese Brazilians? Do they migrate back to Japan en masse?

I would imagine some would try to become Japanese citizens again. Considering the strength of America, some would try their luck with some connections with Japanese corps or risk being laborers to the Americans. Possibly some would try their hands at politics but only the ones hand-picked by the Americans would make it into office.

Most augs would just provide logistical support. Stuff like built in night vision or enhanced hearing. Any explicitly offensive would be barred under the Geneva convention, but im sure they can find a loop hole in it somewhere to exploit.

I think there was a mixup, in the previous thread we had discussed that Eritrea would be the place were the Jews would be relocated to, not Ethiopia.

I think strictly offensive or physical proformance-enhancing augs would be developed by security/cybernetics corps and used by them, just not by the national military. The Yakuza would be a prime example of this. They would have military-grade augs that would allow them to preform better than most JSDF troops but as a result they would be much more expensive to maintain/buy as well as smaller in numbers due to the nature of the Yakuza.

Prime Minister Tashiro Yonezawa
I can already see it now.

That makes sense. Maybe just the USSR uses them for combat troops, and that they're effective during combat but are also really bad for the poor sods health (not that it would matter, always more Tovarisch to die for Soviet Motherland). This disgusts the Japanese government so much that they are very careful what kind of augmentations are distributed, even among active personel. Offensive Augmentations could be Japanese knockoffs of Soviet versions (or authentic Soviet versions that somehow managed to be successfully smuggled in by a sheer miracle of incompetent border security).

>that they're effective during combat but are also really bad for the poor sods health (not that it would matter, always more Tovarisch to die for Soviet Motherland).
This is very good for flavor reasons (and also because it would retain the Russian "die for the Motherland" montra).
>Offensive Augmentations could be Japanese knockoffs of Soviet versions
I see that more of a Chinese things than a Japanese thing though. I imagine the Japanese would be all about creating their own augs (even offensive ones) while still keeping them humane as to differentiate themselves from their Soviet counterparts. Again, smuggling strictly better Soviet combat augs would be more possible through the PRC border than the Japanese border, especially when they are so far away from the Russian heartland.

>>Does Japan only dominate Pan-Pacific trade or does their influence reach to Europe and the Near East? What about Germany?

So far, they dominate in Asia, most of Africa, parts of Europe, South America, and present a major threat to U.S. manufacturing. Their (somewhat) friendly rivalry with the U.S. economically would be a sharp contrast to their quite hostile relationship with Russian expansion.

>Japanese passive aggressiveness vs American straight forward aggressive competition
Makes for a very interesting dynamic.
>most of Africa
Why? I thought Russia was expanding/a dominating force in the Middle East/North Africa. If anything, it should be them, not the Japanese. And if not the Russians, at the very least the Germans.
>parts of Europe
I can imagine Germany being more of a presence than Japan.
>South America
Makes sense, considering the Brazilian-Japanese population there. Would be a fierce competition with the Americans though.

I do think that Japanese goods would still be popular in America. Especially in the present day.

Africa just because it's a region that has resources that are very important to exploit. I was thinking more South-Central Africa where you can see the influence

And in Europe, they would be trying to sway European nations to invest in their country and the region in general. Think the AIIB.

>I was thinking South Central Africa
That would be intresting. The length is a biy of a stretch but if there are India-based corps that are part of a Japanese conglomerate I could see it. I can imagine Africa being more an experimental region/test ground than an actual area of intrest though. I think America/other Asian countries would be most Jap corp's main areas of intrest.

As for Europe, friendly competition between Japan and Germany would be nice, especially when they both share a common enemy. I would imagine many nations would be wary to trust the Japanese though.

>Does the US occupation of Japan end earlier or later than it does in our own history?
>Probably a little bit longer to the point where Japanese society was really influenced by American venture capitalism that would allow it to grow so large in the first place. It would also justify feelings of uneasiness as a long term occupation would hammer the point home to the Japanese that a moments weakness could result in its further defeat and reoccupation from a predatory US or USSR.

Yeah, one would assume Hirohito and his Generals and Admirals would realize their dire situation and not just prolong the war out of their spite/honor. As such the Japanese surrender would come way earlier and Hiroshima and Nagasaki would never happen which would lead to a way different relationship and outlook of Japan and US on each other.

>>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population
ETHIOPIA IS CHRISTIAN YOU DENSE FUCK

Refer to

So wait, if the bombings never happen, then does an American occupation still happen as well?

>The South Koreans won the Korean War
>After WWII, the Jews were relocated to Ethiopia and fought a series of wars with the local Muslim population
Damn, that's a pretty far back place to start for a Cyberpunk setting. I'd figure you'd need to diverge in the 80s, but, damn.

Russo-Japanese and Russo-Sino border skirmishes, still happening? If so, it could set the stage for a good war.

Yeah, occupation still happens - the US wants a strong presence to resist the communists at the end of the war, perhaps even to the point of forcing the Japanese to support the RoC against the PRC.
It's worth noting that the USSR at the end of this WWII has managed to claim/negotiate their way into having Istanbul and a fair bit of Turkey, so the US is very keen to halt them where they can.

That said, not 100% on their not being an a-bomb

India hasn't been covered yet I think, save maybe a murmur of being at least a little friendly with the soviets.

I think it's probably a big enough country, in the right place, to be a mix between the two sides while not being split - at least by 2077 - but I don't really know

>That said, not 100% on their not being an a-bomb
Fatman and Littleboy were not just to force Japan to surrender, it was to scare the Soviets. It failed miserably, of course, because Stalin had a great spy network and they already knew about it, but nonetheless the idea behind it was that the Soviets would see America's power, and fuck off.

I doubt the Chinese would be eager to go to war with the Russians again but it could possibly work out between the Japanese and the Russians, especially considering Japan's allies in Asia. A inter Chinese war sounds more intresting imo.

>I think it's probably a big enough country, in the right place, to be a mix between the two sides while not being split - at least by 2077 - but I don't really know
India was socialist for the most part, and very much was in bed with the Soviets. If WW3 ever kicked off, they had treaties to assist the Soviets by any means. I'd imagine that India is still aggressive towards Pakistan, and pro-Soviet.

Russian bid for land in China using border skirmishes as a justification? North China is pretty damn industrialized after all.

Alternatively, the Russians never fully captured Sakhalin, and Russo-Japanese border skirmishes kick off on the island, which leads to a low intensity conflict for control of it. Ends in a relative stalemate after peace and a DMZ is established, but absolutely soils any and all relations between the two nations?

Yeah, it's a bit far back, but it's good for depth - it's also good for answering stuff like "why is the USSR still around in the 2070s?"

Yeah, I like keeping the Bomb as a way to keep wars between major powers off the table

Russo-Sino not really - maybe a couple of scuffles with the RoC, but they're further away.
The PRc doesn't split away from the soviets in its smaller form, it's still mostly friendly (though a little resentful)

Russo-Japanese is a bit more likely

>What is ETA

I can see the war ending a bit sooner due to stronger anti-war efforts from the military/emperor but ending up the same way (except with a longer occupation) simply due to anticommunist pressures in America. The longer occupation (as well as the bombings) foster a stronger sense of nationalism in Japan, leading to more of a trust in the JSDF

What if they make a deal with the USSR to buy Sakhalin? This could happen in the 90's with a cash strapped Soviet Union undergoing Perestroika, agreeing to hand over a mostly worthless piece of land for a hefty sum, that would help save the Soviet economy from total collapse like it did in reality.

This would also be the moment where the U.S. starts questioning its ability to control Japan like it was able to in the past. Cue an event in which U.S. diplomats unsuccessfully try to get Japan to call off the deal, which produces fallout and animosity between the two nations.

Gives it a good reason to be on better terms with the Japanese and less preyed upon by the US megas - as Brazil's the biggest and probably most stable country in South America this seems reasonable - their natural strengths combined with the support of the Japanocorps for Japanese Brazilians in positions of power making Brazil a respectable secondary power, though there's a fair bit of preference to Japanese business

I like the idea of a short lived Russo-Japanese War where Japan gets to test its new military might and is successful against the Russians as a result (pro-captialist Chinese and Korean help helps them a lot in this conflict)

>"why is the USSR still around in the 2070s?"
Speaking of which; why is the USSR around in the 2070s? The country was very clearly destined for death. They would have to have serious reforms and handled dissent MUCH better than they did, because the USSR collapse was almost inevitable. Not being able to feed your people, having a military that was a fucking joke (The Red Army by the 80s was absolutely garbage. NATO would have steamrolled the Warszawa Pact if it weren't for the fact that Russia's nuclear doctrine existed), and encouraging in-fighting and misinformation in your intelligence agency makes not for a good country.

I recommend having a period of reform for the USSR, to make them more stable in the long run. Better international trade relations, and perhaps a military coup to keep the country's leadership more on the same page than its internally balkanized structure that was in place by the 1980s.

Perestrojka still happened? Sure, and I think the purchasing of Sakhalin would make sense to help the Sovs, but Perestrojka needs to get undone. Maybe have Janajev assume power in the attempted coup in 1991, and have the hardliners run the show from there? Gorby really was the death of the Soviet Union. The nation just didn't work without hardliners running the show.

Vid related is a good idea of what good have happend (Minus the nuclear armageddon)
youtube.com/watch?v=PCblCImmgu8

I was thinking Perestroika was done in a different way that still lead to a recession, but didn't nearly damage the Soviet economy as much as it did in real life.

Brazil would be a point of contention between the U.S. and Japan, where both countries would battle it out for diplomatic favors and political influence. Brazil itself also is much wealthier and developed than in real life due to the Brazilian Miracle going on for a lot longer than it did in reality, making Brazil much wealthier with a robust middle class that would be able to survive the eventual crash, which didn't hurt the Brazilian economy nearly as bad In this timeline.

Sounds like a good idea. The purchase of Sakhalin will certainly be a major event in the 90s, comparable to the annexation of Crimea. It will not only show to America that she's not in charge of Japan anymore, but it would also make evident the new power of Japan to other Asian nations, who still have in memory the atrocities of WW2.

I'm also sure that these events would cause some turmoil in both countries. In the Soviet Union, military leaders and nationalist will protest about the weakness shown by the progressive goverment. Heck, it may even trigger a coup in the USSR to restore hardliner power. Meanwhile in Japan, liberals and pacifists will protest about the imperialist turn of the country. This can have an effect on Japan's internal politics in the coming 21st century.

Well for one thing they've got Constantinople (which is about as big as Moscow and a huge port) and a large part of the Middle East as Soviet Republics and/or Satellite States, so they have a lot of oil money from that.
They also have some significant investments and allies in resources in the PRC/Mongolia region, though those may have come later

The other thing is that their economy hasn't been quite so disastrous - their central planning was both somewhat compartmentalised and largely computerised - first with telex-type machines a la Project Cybersyn (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn) then later with AI - by 2077 the Soviet Distributed Economic Planning AI is the largest and most advanced of its kind in the world, though other, less ambitious AIs are "smarter"

This seems like a good turning point for the USSR - a period where allowing the dreaded foreign investment and purchasing shook up the country, while adding an influx of money - for example if the USSR grudgingly facilitated the Japanese and the Germans (major economic powers and allies again) to trade via the Trans-Siberian railway, under two conditions: the engineering powerhouses upgrade the damn thing, and they have to pay Soviet handling/rolling stock fees.
It's a huge cost, and a galling admission of weakness, but being able to ship thousands of tons from the Japanese sphere to European markets in a few days made the costs worth it

Hardliner power might thus be more focused on keeping the ideology of the country strong and stable

Not the user you are replying to but I like this a lot. Changes Japan from a passive to an active nation while stirring up imperialistic sentiment in the nation ironic how the opposite happens in Russia.

>Soviet planning AIs for the Motherland
I love it.

Obviously, Germany is going to be the biggest fish on the pond on that continent, but its power was limited to the ECC. An organisation which Spain was not allowed to join for the whole dictatorship drama. In OTL, one of the reasons the Franco regime fell was the percieved backwardness of the country compared to the rest of Europe, symbolised by the ECC. But if in this setting the Franco regime continues, that means that it will have to use force. And that may isolate Spain further, making the country less stable. Its only real ally is the US, whose public opinion is increasingky disgusted by the Spanish regime's actions against its own people.

In the 80s, Spain is practically isolated. There's a real fear in the Goverment of a communist revolution lead by the Soviet-backed ever-growing PCE. Terrorist organisations like GRAPO gain popular support. The late 80s in Spain are marked by brutal terrorist attacks and political violence and even more brutal government repression with the aid of CIA. Even the Catholic Church, one of the foundations of the regime, protests against the violence of the regime. By the early 90s, the Governement is at its knees, in spite of American support. A communist takeover seems certain.

Enter Japan.

After the purchase of Sakhalin, the Japanese government, with a newfound confidence in their cnation's power, and the US pressures the USSR to stop funding the PCE and GRAPO in Spain. This gives some breathing space to the fragile Spanish State, but stability is far from achieved.

Then, Japanese diplomats make a series of negotiations with Spain without the US knowing. In exchange for economic and covert military support, Spain would grant Japanese companies privileges and it would reduce political repression to prevent a Second Civil War from breaking out.

cont.

Allying with an unstable fascist nation in a faraway continent may not seem like teh best idea at first, but Japan has two main interests in Spain. First, its large fishing fleet. The unstoppable growth of the Asian economy has meant that the fish reserves of the continent have greatly suffered. Spanish fishing may be the only thing keeping the Japanese supply afloat. Remember that the Japanese are the top consumers of fish of the world.

The other is Spain's geostrategic location. Once Japan has gained the trust of the highly nationalistic Spanish government, it can open naval and aereal bases at the other side of Eurasia and in North Africa (Canary islands). Thus Japan would have presence in both the Pacific and Atlantic. Spain may also be used as a lever by the Japanese to replace Soviet influence in Africa by theirs.

In spite of its secrecy, by the 2000s, Japanese support to the autocratic, yet softening, Spanish State is evident. This makes unconfortable both the US, who further realise the true extent of Japanese power. Japan also begins negotiation to the ever-weakening UK in order to gain access to Gibraltar, the key to the Mediterranean.

Germany is shocked by the turn of events. Japan, its greatest economic ally, has entered its natural sphere of influence, Europe, without permission. As a result, Portugal is added in the EEC, to contrarrest Japanese influence in the peninsula. France is also not amused by Japanese influence in a bordering country, which may also pose a potential threat to her African colonies.

I like this but my only worry is that i don't see Japan doing something that they know would both upset the Soviets and the Germans. Sure it creates conflict, but ultimately its unnessary conflict for the Japanesr side as it makes too many enemies than it gives them gains. The fishing/naval angle is very intresting though and I can still see Japan/Germany/the UN working together against Russia.

I would much rather an unstable/wary web of relations than nationalistic Japan making enemies that they don't need.

It's very simple - operate in realistic boundaries, instead of running wild.
Want a change?
Here, get Korea united. Suddenly ENTIRE REGION has a massive shift. Japanese are no longer extorted by North, so is South. South needs to invest shitload of cash in North (because North taking South is a joke, really), Chinese interests are completely fucked up in the area (they are currently leasing a non-frozing port from North to cut short 1k km over Manchuria, shipping over 150 km railroad and then loading on ships)
Congratu-fucking-lations, you now have:
- Korea that is both at odds with China and massive expenses to put on North (while keeping their army)
- China that yet again is fucked with access to the sea
- Japs that lost one of the main reasons they maintain half of their army... or, sorry, self-defense forces
- RoC is still a strategically important, but absolutely meaningless military shithole in the middle of nowhere, with no real means to get back on land

And even based on those, you can still run a decent cyberpunk setting. For crying out loud, Feng Shui managed to have an entire setting build around future Hong Kong and you can't handle broad strokes of a full region setting.

You're right in that softer power is more appropiate for the Japanese. Maybe the Japanese can take over the Spanish fishing sector economically while having an ambiguous relation with the government.

On the geostrategic interests of Japan, maybe you can make that the rise of Japanese power create a kind of imperialist lobby/faction/party that wants to make Japan grow militarily and economically. The general public in mainly against said faction, but they are still quite influental in Japanese politics.

I think an emerging militaristic/imperialistic factor fits better. There's growing support within the government for (though the general public, especially those that lived through the war don't support them) it. This causes tension in Japan whilr not outright giving them unneeded enemies abroad, especially amongst their trade partners and allies.

The return of hardliners to power can be most exemplified by the People's Network - the soviet cyberspace.
Heavily monitored, widely available, and in many places the networking services are mandatory (check China's credit systems ideas to see what sort of thing I mean), the People's Network is a massive technocratic organ of control, even as it allows the citizens of the Union to communicate with each other and access the great libraries of public data and media.

That said though, the tracking systems, business servers and secure intranets of the People's Network make it a juicy target for hacking, by criminals, foreign agents and even internal soviet forces.

Interesting that Japan would do such a thing, but if Spain is unstable and in danger of collapse I guess I could see it - Germany, the US and the UK might have just looked at it as a pariah/exploitable zone with little to offer them, but Japan wants something from Spain, and as possibly the world's largest economy it's in a position to get it - though it might not do so quite brazen a fashion, given that they are friendly with Germany

Seems like a good idea to me. Maybe in the future a kind of pacifist movement appears in Japan to prevent another disaster like WW2 if the government gets too expansionist.

Yeah, Japan's plans may be a bit rushed. Instead, I propose that the Japanese try to convince the Francoists to give up power voluntarily to prevent a civil war. Then, a democratic regime is formed under Japanese and German guidance, which is then accepted into EEC, but it still holds many economic and political ties to the Japanese and the Germans. Maybe later on the Spanish suffer some kind of economic crisis and decide to break off from the EEC and allign themselves fully with Japan.

I would say the opposite. Tired of being linked to Japanese and German corps, after economic reform, the Spanish break off and formally re join the rest of the European nations.

I can imagine the pacifist faction in the Japanese government already being pretty popular, at least after the war/occupation

Nth for Rhodesia becoming succesful

>reminder that Japan outfits the Yamato with railguns
TENOU HEIKA BANZAI

Yah, a /k/ommando suggested that last thread - he was immediately outed as a /k/ommando.
But that's okay, /k/ and rhodesia are cool - it'd be interesting to have an African state that's not totally gone to pot.

The NEW Yamato, not the original.
That really shouldn't have to be clarified, but you know

You know, in the last thread I figured a reason the Japanese Defence Force might build a new battleship (other than it being damn cool, ofc) - the JSDF is limited by various things on what it can and can't have - Japan cannot hold offensive military weapons - this has been interpreted to mean that Japan cannot have ICBMs, nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers or bomber fleets.
Japan's quite creative about getting around that - see pic related, the largest and latest Japanese surface combatant, a "helicopter destroyer", which is suggested to just happen have aircraft lifts large enough for the F35, at least some of which are being bought with mention of variants.

Post WWII it'd be reasonable to not ban Japan from building battleships - as obsolete weapons, they don't need to be banned, even when it's the nation self-policing.

Fast forward to, say, the 2040s or 50s (or earlier depending on tech), Japan is a major power, anti-missile lasers can lock on to all but the very fastest projectiles, the pro-imperialist faction is rising, their booming heavy industry wants to show off, lo and behold the JSDF gets a shiny new flagship - the new Yamato, with it's massive railgun broadside and bristling with laser point defence turrets.

Rhodesia would still be a very minor nation that relies strongly on South Africa to export surplus outside of Africa. This inadvertently makes them fall into the Japanese sphere via South Africa's PM's close ties with Japan.

Germany wouldnt necessarily be opposed to growing Japanese power in Europe if it opposes the interests of the USSR (which is everyone's common enemy in this timeline). I think it's a good compromise though that the more or less "friendly" relations the U.S., Japan and Germany have are also marked by economic rivalry between the three, each trying to outdo the other in terms of economic growth and political influence.

Japan's decision to prop up Franco's regime would be in everyone's mutual interests, though they would rather they be the ones with the say.

>the more or less "friendly" relations the U.S., Japan and Germany have are also marked by economic rivalry between the three, each trying to outdo the other in terms of economic growth and political influence.
That makes a lot of sense - politically they're all allied, but economically there's a lot of competition, and there's areas that they each consider "their" markets

I like the idea of the pro military Japanese faction outfiting the military with cutting edge tech. This could extend Japan's land forces as well (as was touched on earlier with augs and other tech)

I can see where you are coming from. I can just imagine unless the imperialist faction becomes very prominent in Japan, aggressive military action in foregin countries would be something they would be more careful about. Especially in Europe. I can imagine them doing something more subtle or subdued.

Like what areas? Cars and possibly heavy machinery, but I don't see much other cross over.

I was thinking locale-wise: Japan's biggest areas of influence are South-East Asia and the Pacific, the US considers Latin America as its playground, and Germany is the largest and most influential economy of Europe

There are wrinkles, of course - the Philippines, perhaps for US-influenced in the Japanese Sphere, Brazil being Japan-friendly in South America, the Spanish co-operation with the Japanese in Europe etc.

Oh ok that makes more sense. I would think India would br a contentious area for Japan/Russia, as would Turkey for Germany/Russia. And of course there's spain for Germany and Japan as well as North Africa/the Middle East for Germany/Russia.

Are there any I'm missing?