I feel no responsibility to comrades who've lost lives under my command. Because they chose to fight in each battle...

>in service of a noble cause
>Griffith wanting to be a king in a castle
>noble cause
Okay. His dream was always selfish bullshit, but people went along with it because of his charisma.

He climbed that mountain of corpses to reach the castle. He was a piece of shit even before he sacrificed his comrades.

But people will do all those things realistically.

There's a difference between leading people where's the risk of them dying and actively killing them.

But they wanted to die.

Leading people to their deaths in pursuit of a goal doesn't make you evil

Literally sacrificing all the people closest to you to literal demons in order to obtain another chance at that goal does.

I have no idea about the source material, so I'm just going off of greentext here.

I think you can make that case, and I'd allow it at my table. That said, I expect more empathy from someone who wants to play 'good'. I can kinda see this working if the 'dream' in question is some kind of great good. That's the sort of empathy I expect from a paladin: empathy for the victim and justice for the criminal. Moreover, I don't accept that he can be better than 'neutral' without personally taking part in the battle in question, even if he just leads from the back strategically. Then it's too much like he's sacrificing people without the personal risk I expect of 'good'. (Specifically in reference to the second-to-last sentence.)

Prettyman up there wanted to become a demon king, so he became a loved army commander. So loved by his men that they trusted him in every battle. Eventually it's time for his apotheosis, and the price was the body and soul of every soldier in his army. His betrayal was total, and he felt no guilt over it.

One guy fought back, and the demon prince raped his ladyfriend until her mind broke, then branded the only dude who stood up to him so he'd always be a beacon for demons to follow him and try to kill him for the rest of his life.

Not good in any sense of the word.

To be slightly fair to Griffisu he didn't START wanting to become a DEMON King, just a King. Nor did he START with the intention of sacrificing everyone who ever liked him to huge hungry demons.

He was just given the choice to do so. And he took it. Making him evil.

>Hey guys, wanna fight as mercenaries for me and help me get a sweet kingdom?
>Sure!

>Wanna be sacrificed to demons and suffer horrific deaths so I can become a raping demon overlord?
>Hey wait a minu--
>TOO LATE ASSHOLES I'M KING THICKDICK OF FUCK MOUNTAIN NOW

The difference is in prior consent. It's one thing to willingly make a sacrifice on someone's behalf, and another to be made a sacrifice against their will.

Ah, fair enough. It's been ages since I read em, so I appreciate the clarification.

Also, new anime a shit that ruined chocolate waifu.

>Chivalrous to a fault
>Voluntarily celibate
>Puts himself in harm's way rather than send more inexperienced knights to their death
>Shows honor and courtesy to his enemies, to the point of stopping his comrades from killing an unconscious Guts in retribution
>Even when no longer a knight of the holy sea he still travels to right wrongs
>Arguably the most heroic character in the series

If anyone deserves to be called a paladin, it's Azan.

Griffith is evil as fuck. Just because he feels some amount of guilt about throwing hundreds of soldiers away so that he can be a king doesn't make him a good person, because he does it anyway.

He starts neutral, but when the chips are down he trades everything for his own personal ambitions.

The crusades were immoral as shit. They were basically excuses for knights to murder and loot.

To be more fair, he was not exactly in the right state of mind when he made that choice. Being a shattered wreck of a person who was tortured for an entire year and is trapped in his own body unable to do literally anything, even talk is going to mess a guy up.

I'd say the goodest of the good guys in Berserk are
>Azan
>Serpico
>The two Midland knights in the royal court whose names I can't really remember
>Shierke
>Rickert

The kid noble who hangs around with Griffith also seems pretty good despite being on the wrong side too. Skull Knight seems very just and selfless too but I imagine his past as Gaiseric is full of some pretty awful shit.

Obviously Guts becomes a nicer and nicer guy as the series goes on but he did some questionable shit during his mercenary days and as the Black Swordsman. Likewise, Farnese is good now and completely fucking bland and boring Serpico too despite my fondness for him but has a pretty shady past.

Yea but he boned Charlotte and got himself caught because his dream shattered when Guts left and he realized that not everyone will always bend to his will.

t. a sociopath.

Pre-Eclipse Griffith was amoral.
Post-Eclipse Griffith is immoral.

The Band agreed to fight for his ideals. They did not agree to be sacrificed for godlike powers.

The crusades brought civilization to barbarians. While i agree it didn't have the desired effect it wasn't from lack of trying and i feel we have the tools at hand now to succeed where we previously failed.

>mfw i dont have a bait image.

>liking griffith
I shall destroy you with the rage of guts

Dude, no. During the crusades the Middle East was more civillized than Europe. They had actual doctors, not retards who cut off limbs and drilled holes in people's heads.

If you define the barbarians of that conflict as the Europeans, you could actually make that argument.

Whatever you say ackmed.

Poor Middle East, getting barbarian-fucked from both ends. You got the Mongols burning all your libraries and smelly Christians sacking everything else. Though their invading Iberia didn't exactly make them popular in Europe.

A girly boy who would sell his body to old men and sell out his own loyal subordinates to demons.

Overselling it. Amputation was still a battlefield remedy at the time since it takes a lot of particular tools, time, knowledge, and skill to know how to reconstruct a leg. They were just far better at doing it without the amputee dying since they sorta understood how infection worked better then Europeans did.

This post brings to mind an old saw. Something about failing to learn from history...

What the shit? No they weren't. They were excuses to get the knights out of Europe. They were going to murder and loot no matter where they were.

There was nothing immoral about the crusades in and of themselves. Muslims had conquered all of North Africa, took loads of Byzantine land, conquered Iberia, invaded parts of Italy, and actively raided France. A Christian backlash against it was inevitable and justified.

I don't know if he was trolling or just not specific, but the crusades in Eastern Europe brought civilization to the barbarians there. Funny enough as soon as they accepted Christ it became much harder for the crusaders to rob and pillage them. The Teutonic Knights are mediocre fighters with a crazy bonus against pagans.

I would assume he was talking about the crusades for Jerusalem.

Did the Eastern European Crusades even do anything besides get Lithuanians to barely speed up the conversion to Christiany?

Brought tech and knowledge to the areas visited.

They created the state of Prussia, converted Livonians, Lithuanians, and other small ethnic groups around the area, and made enemies of Poland, the Mongols/Tartars, and later free Russia. For the prologue they actually went and drove heathens out of Transylvania on behalf of Hungary for which they were thanked by being told to fuck the hell off. The Teutonic Knights are basically very skilled warriors who are equally skilled at getting themselves screwed over.

That whore who took care of Casca in the Conviction Arc is a better person than most of those.

Griffith's cause wasn't noble. He wanted to become a king and rule over people, not to help anyone by doing so, but because he just wanted it.

Why not?

The whores are pretty high tier morality too, yeah, but I wouldn't say quite as high tier as the others listed. Also I just remembered - Godo and his daughter. They're good.

>Takes Casca in because she realizes Casca can't take care of herself, even though food is scarce
>Bandages Casca's face and tell people she's a leper so no one will rape her or try to buy her
What has Schierke or Serpico done that even comes close to her selflessness?

Was Griffith always a complete sociopath, or did becoming Femto do that?

>During the crusades the Middle East was more civillized than Europe
Citation needed.

Look at the middle east now. Doesn't look so civilized.

He was always a sociopath. He always saw other people as a means to an end.

To be unfair it was entirely his own fault because he couldn't deal with Guts surpassing him and effectively stealing Casca's adoration.

Hell he tries to rape Casca when they help him.

I hated how the CGI movie made Casca's rape seem like a hentai. That really pissed me off because it undermined the whole fucking point of it.

No, but literally sacrificing them as an offering to attain pseudo-godhood and then raping one of your most trusted lieutenant in front of her lover who betrayed you?

He's repulsive.

>all these Griffith apologists ITT

He didn't even betray him, Guts just wanted to travel by himself and search for his own purpose in life. Griff got salty, then lost.

The be unfair, if you sacrifice all your friends to demons you're the type of man willing to sacrifice all your friends to demons and everything up till then has just been haggling over price.

Didn't Treize give pretty much the exact same speech?

Shit he even did it so that he could be closer friends with Griffith because GRIFFITH TOLD HIM THATS WHAT IT TAKES TO BE HIS FRIEND.

Griffith is a monster who deserves to die. And I am normally someone who leaves violence as a last resort.

Griffith, however, deserves a nice thick slab of iron into his cranium at 300 mph.

I'm still convinced Guts will reject the Berserk armour and it'll go all Hellhound and end up devouring Griffith.

What's more fitting for a would-be godking then being eaten by filthy hounds?

I want Guts to go so berserk that he kills his friends in blind rage. Then, we will have Lost Children again, with Guts traveling solo.

This time, he won't have anything to lose. The only thing pushing him forward will be revenge.

>Poster confirmed to be Beast of Darkness

As much as I only like about half of the ever expanding Guts fun time party squad I really don't want them to die just because Guts' live sucks so god damned much already I really don't want it to take another sharp dive. Especially if Caska dies, especially if its Guts' fault. Jesus christ.

he literally sacrificed all of his comrades to undo damage that he caused to himself by fucking a princess in the night rather than asking for her hand in marriage and her father's blessing, things he would've gotten no doubt being the hero he was. and he did this just because his most treasured warrior was inspired by hi "Don't live in other's shadows, pursue your own dream" thing.

He literally couldn't comprehend guts wanting to try and step up and become his equal so he could see HIMSELF as Griffith's true friend and not a subordinate. Griffith is a fucking retarded sociopath, and lets not forget that when he raped Caska he was staring guts dead in the eyes with a mix of hate and longing.

I'm genuinely unsure if that post if bait or if you're just fucking autistic by the textbook definition.

It's like Hawk is with us here, in spirit!

There's this whole deal where he tells Guts he only respects people who pursue their dreams, so Guts leaves to go pursue his dream of being da biggest and da strongest, and Griffith gets all pissy that he left so he fugs the king's daughter and completely ruins his life. Crippled by torture and a clear burden to everyone around him, he does a sacrifice and fucks over his entire army, men who faithfully served and looked up to him.

Then he raped Guts' girlfriend in front of him.

I don't even know what makes Serpico a good person. He's a good dog?

>rather than asking for her hand in marriage and her father's blessing, things he would've gotten no doubt being the hero he was.

I dunno, her dad seemed to really want to fuck her.

I know the story, user.

I was just wonder whether he was truly a sociopath before everything went downhill in the Golden Age.

Nothing indicates he wasn't.

Yeah, having the mongols fuck you up can do that to you.

He would not have gotten it. Remember, having a behilt means that God will actively screw your life over to give you a moment of total despair.

No matter what, the Eclipse would happen, although he was free to choose to tell them to fuck off once it did.

Circumstance matters. It isn't like he actively sought out demons to get their power. He got offered power in the worst moment of his life.

He just sounds like an evil gaylord justifying his actions.

Honestly I think this is just godhand taking credit for things they never did, Guts walking out alive from the eclipse was something they never expected to happen, which their ability to see the future and change is not as great as they say it is.

If Griffith had been smarter he would have married the princess and made her pregnant with the kings blessing.

Instead Griffith basically went full retard and the god hand came to take the credit saying the planned everything, when most likely they just got lucky that Griffith was such a fucking retard.

Guts would have died there if it weren't for the Skull Knight. Most of fate in Berserk is set in stone, but in the tiniest window where fate can change, the Skull Knight appears.

The point remains that they did not anticipate Skull Knight's meddling in their affairs and "Guts escaping".

The reason is not important. The point is that they didn't see it coming and could not stop it.

I'm tired of the "Crusaders were ruthless pillagers" meme, Looting and the like was pretty much the same as other conflicts at the time, as in it happened and was horrible, but only slightly worse than the Norman Invasion of England. If you want horrible bloodshed, look at Charlemagne's War for Saxony

The crusades began because of three things
1: The Umayyids (A muslim Kingdom) had conquered most of Hispania, triggering the reconquista
2: Seljuk Turks had begun Expanding into Eastern Roman Lands
3: The Seljuks Didn't allow Christians to visit Jerusalem

The Pope wanted to Mend the schism between East and West, and so he came to the (Byzantine) Roman's Aid, many christians were already angry because the Muslims no longer allowed them in the holy lands (Because the Muslims that allowed them were kicked out by the Seljuks).

Admittedly, the fourth crusade was a horrible thing that led to the fall of the Roman Empire, but T\the crusades to the levant were just standard war campaigns with the aim of bringing the west together, instead of squabling kingdoms.

Dammit, I took the bait

>autistic by the textbook definition
what you dislike about his post and his reasoning has nothing to do with the definition of autistic.

I've gotten to the point where I can ignore that people use the term 'autistic' to mean things that have nothing to do with autism, but brining in textbook definition is a bridge to fucking far.

autism: a mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts. Given his inability to understand the difference between outright sacrificing people for personal gain and leading people into a situlation where they could potentally die for a "noble cause" he seems pretty autistic to me

>A Bridge Too Far
Hey now that movie was awesome, don't drag it into this mess.

then that's a shitty textbook, or a very poor understanding of 'abstract concepts' as meant here.
trust me when I say, the fuckups he made were not in any way autistic fuckups. People misuse the term massively on this site.

He's being a troll, and edgelord (nothing to do with autism), or doesn't actually know the charcter or the story.
Someone autistic enough to have confused what you think he confused, would be close to non-commucative.

What the fuck was wrong with the term 'idiot' or 'stupid'. It's what people actually mean.

t.asaltyautist

But the Russia is as cool as it's ever been. Big Bad Vlad is putting the empire back together.

>but in the tiniest window where fate can change, the Skull Knight appears.

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling GOD part of the name GODhand

It's right there
>says "everybody should follow their dreams!"
>"wait wtf his dream is NOT making ME king?!"
Pretty sociopathic.

>1: The Umayyids
Damn. That name.
Just.
That fucking name.

Nope. A cause that is pure and evil does not wrap around into being good.

>putting the empire back together
>ruining his countries reputation 15 different ways and permanently fucking over its economy

As much as I have always loved that worried puppy look on Zodd's face in that image, that scene was such a colossal disappointment. There was so much foreshadowing of Skull Knight actually doing something important with that damn Behelit sword and then we got absolutely nothing other than proof of how fucking strong Femto's in-universe plot armor is. Which I wouldn't have a problem with, but only if they had simply had Skull Knight attack him normally instead of with a badass sword that seemed really important.

Griffith never told that to Guts. He told it to the princess and Guts just overheard. From Griffith's perspective, Guts was already his friend and equal.

You know nothing about the crusades, libtard.

>Gets saved from torture by his two best friends
>Rapes one and has the other mutilated

>Orchestrates a war
>Invites demons to come end it

Yeah he sounds like a real defender of justice

Also I think it was mentioned that those who died during an Apostle's sacrifice are eternally condemned to Hell too. Don't even get rest in death. Good guy Griffith.

Yeah. It's fucked to think about that no matter how bad Guts and Casca's lives are now, they'll have it even worse when they die.

Yeah, Serpico isn't really a nice person.

He's your classic nice bishounen from a girls romance drama, except he really loves his psycho sister.

It's not just Sacrifices. Everyone goes to the Vortex of Souls when they die. If you go back to the Black Swordsman arc, Guts actually sees it at one point, with a character who had just died in it. Basically, there is no Heaven, everyone goes to Hell.