Warmachine and Hordes General

Two part answer:
(a) People started playtesting the hellmouth.

(b) It turns out most of Legion's stuff in Mk2 was so broken that even if you nerf it, it's still ridiculous.

I think you're overstating how good Behemoth is. He's still most of a casters WJ points for something that can be disrupted or knocked around and dies to a properly applied heavy in one round.

Isn't there also that zany pLylyth list with two minion warlocks that's been making waves?

>Behemoth's probably a bit better than the Stormwall ever was, aside from having fewer boxes and no Lightning Pods. But I guess that's an okay price to pay for being 17p cheaper.
Hard to make a comparison between two jacks at such different price points, but there's no doubt that Behemoth is very good.

Not sure about "Mk2 Stormwall Good" though. That phrase can be translated as "So good it makes all other jacks in the faction obsolete". I don't think the new Behemoth quite fits the bill. He does a lot, certainly, but he's still got plenty of competition.

That falls under line item (b), I think. It's basically just a pLyl assasination list.

You could have actually run that list (or something very close) in Mk2, but eLylyth Double Ravagore needed to get knocked down a notch to make room for it.

I don't agree. If you commit him late and just have him shoot 2 fully boosted AoEs every turn until turn ~4 none of those things you mentioned should threaten him.

>So good it makes all other jacks in the faction obsolete
If he wasn't FA:C I'm fairly certain most Khador players would take 2.

Don't count eLylyth out yet, either. People are down on her because she's different, but she's still got a game.

>If he wasn't FA:C I'm fairly certain most Khador players would take 2.
It's an interesting point, but Khador is now a faction with a lot of really aggressively priced jacks. Uncle Karchev's Discount Warjack Emporium is going out of business and EVERYTHING. MUST. GO. (except spriggans, for some reason)

Behemoth costs about two "regular" jacks, or one and a half of most of the other high-end options... plenty of interesting choices there.

reposting classic Veeky Forums because Khador Stronk!

needs to be updated, though.

Oh definitely. It's just that he shoots as well as ~2.5 jacks.

2013 is not "classic".

>2013 is not "classic".
It is if you're three years old!

>Behemoth costs as much as two jacks
>It's just that he shoots as well as ~2.5 jacks
But he doesn't fight as well as 2.5 jacks. He still trades like a single Jugger (+10% maybe), so he has to justify that extra 12 pts on the way in... which is possible, but not automatic. So that's where the tipping point is.

it was an instant classic, regardless of date.

>He still trades like a single Jugger
Does a single jugger kill an average heavy on average dice without caster input (aside from 1-2 focus)? Because the Behemoth absolutely does without any trouble.

It was some mediocre meme that you chose to resurrect because to you ALL CAPS is the epitome of humor. Nothing more.

you seem butthurt.

Oh come on. You get called out on your lame shit and "U JUST BUTTHURT" is the best you can manage? At least put forward some effort.

>Does a single jugger kill an average heavy on average dice without caster input (aside from 1-2 focus)? Because the Behemoth absolutely does without any trouble.
Sure, the behemoth hits a little harder. Acknowledged. But it doesn't hit enough harder, or survive enough longer, compared to a Juggernaut to put you significantly ahead in the piece trade.

And it's not like Khador casters are exactly hurting for melee jack buffs.

It hits a damn lot harded. Add a buff and watch a colossal vanish.

Also, the difference between taking out a heavy in an activation and leaving it on a few boxes is huge.

We're probably going to be seeing a lot less colossals in the meta compar9to MK2, so I'm not sure that's a major selling point.

Some warmachine stuff was on clearance at my LGS, so i picked up a convergeance battlegroup box. New to the game, where should i go from here? A friend of mine got into hordes recently and theres a small community that plays

Colossal lists are still a thing, but yes, not as much as in Mk2. That still leaves the Behemoth as a heavy that can one-round any other heavy without a dmg-buff and can shoot as well as some colossals.

Does anyone have the Flashpoint novel they can share? Skullisland literally won't accept my credit card

About how long does it take for PP to get back to tickets on their mispack/replacement site? I filed one five days ago and I haven't heard anything back yet, not even a message confirming they'd seen it.

Anyone playing the journeyman league?

Usually only a couple of days, though with the new release it could be longer. If you haven't heard anything at all I'd try emailing them, sonce it might have slipped through the cracks.

Tired of listening to Cryx players wet their pants, going to play Cryx as my new faction.

Looking at pDenny and pGore although I really want Denny3 to work because of the model.

I'm not sure she's viable this edition, even with Grave Wind/Shield guard--thoughts?

Best bet for expanding from the battlebox without spending a ton of $$ is to grab a multi-part heavy warjack kit, add another caster, or pick up a few solos.

Getting a heavy kit, and magnetizing the arms on it and the one that came in your battlebox, and you'll have a lot of options for how to configure your battlegroup.

Adding a caster will totally shake things up, since each supports their army differently. Axis and Lucant are probably the easiest to move to after Syntherion.

Solos are great for spending those last couple points or filling a specific niche. Convergence doesn't really have any bad options here, but the Steelsoul Protector or the servitors are probably the easiest to slot into any list.

Playing Convergence, I'm really feeling the lack of TEP - I miss the colossal too, but the TEP is just too amazing.

Sorry, you're gonna play Venethrax.

pDenny is still the best Cryx Caster. Hands down.

pDenny is really strong, even though her feat took a hit. But the new Lamentation... holy hell that spell is vicious. Venethrax and Shade1 are both rocking it (and unlike mage Blight, you can actually cast it and not immediately die). A lot of hordes lists, in particular, just have no good answer for a 14" Lamentation bubble.

I agree.

I'm not sure who in Cryx can handle Khador/Ret though. I just don't see it yet but there has to be a good matchup there.

Hordes, I think Cryx has that covered.

Oops, didn't meant to click post yet..still had thoughts.

So I was thinking Denny3 maybe as Mortality can be spread pretty easily for her and that can wreck any unit/jack...but damn she'll just get shot to death by Sloan.

So don't know who the answer is in Cryx yet. Maybe Termintard .

So If I want to run a merc jack in Protectorate but I don't want to shell out the 12 to 18 points for the devil dogs, do I want shaw, dirty meg or gastonne?
I've been thinking about picking one of them up for friendly games.

So I just looked at Deneghra1's card and what the fuck how is this remotely fair and balanced?

Because she's a shit polishing caster, and now Cryx infantry is pretty shit.

And hey, she was worse in MK2

Gastonne obviously.

As a Minions (Gators) player, I'd like to think that we're upper mid-tier, if not low-top tier. We don't have anything gamebreaking imo, but one of our big problems (ARM cracking) simply isn't an issue anymore.
Pigs also got better overall, which is a plus for the faction as a whole.

honestly if i were to rank them in any order in tier, it would be

minions
cryx
trollbloods (which is closer to skorne than to cryx)

every faction got powered down in some aspect, but there is a subtle power bump between warmachine armies vs hordes armies, the buff to jacks swung the pendulum a little to far to their side.

legion was a God tier army in mk 2 they still have alot of their former capability despite the power increase to jacks, this is why they moved up a tier (also the hellmouth is fucking bonkers).

On the flipside the other god tier army of mk2 was nerfed into the fucking ground. Not saying they weren't broken but it seems like the over corrected the issue. Their premiere infantry unit lost Tough and stealth and their line infantry were also nerfed slightly. Coupled with some of their jacks already having pseudo power up, they didn't really enjoy the power bump that most warmachine factions got.

Were the full faction decks ever leaked? Specifically Khador, Legion, Mercs? Well I guess minions too but I can't remember any that work with legion.

yea, in may. But the link is in the op

Wow, had to have looked over that link at least 3 times. Forgive me user, for being a water head and all.

I think minions and cryx should get bumped up. Idk if legion belongs up there and I don't think CoC is popular enough to be up there.
I'm not sure if Cygnar belongs that high either

Can you run two warcasters in a game? Is it a smart move? And im guessing the big box comes with all the arms as opposed to just the arms that came in the starter, so with magnets i have 4 options as opposed to two? Also, are any units worth it for convergeance? Or should i stick to jacks and solos?

>mfw Skorne is top tier but everyone's too busy spewing epic memes to notice

yes, but not common
its essentially a different format
yes
their heavy infantry is pretty good
only if you want

epic, skorne is top tier maymay, user!

Technically you can run as many as you want. You only use 2 warlocks at higher point costs like 100+ games, but no one ever plays them because they're just clusterfucks that take 4 hours to play. You can use journeyman warcasters in your normal games though. Assuming they're the same as lesser warlocks, it's just a mini warcaster solo that you give jacks to and works the same way your normal warcaster works.

i'd be interested in why you think that.

But i also don't think a factions popularity should dictate its tier rating, due to the high buy in to a especially for a new army with few releases.

Denny3 is fantastic and, imo, one of the strongest casters in the faction. This is the list I have been running with some success. However, I find she is a very technical caster to play. Not very forgiving in the order of activation department.

Hey, I'm new and making a Circle list, but don't care for the starter box.

Is Mohsar good? I'm bad at understanding if things are trash.

Thanks user for the reply.

Talk out your list for me. What does this do--and what does it pair well against? Thanks again.

Minions are amazing. They have access to an excelent gunline, great beasts, fantastic threat ranges with Arkadius

Cygnar are good, great even, but I think they are easier to counter than people think.

Regarding popularity and CoC. In this case I think it is something to be taken into consideration because of it niche status. Its a limited faction, with a relativly small base. I think there are only 2 people in nor cal, a fairly good sized meta, who field them competativly.
My point, if a faction is strong but no one plays them- does the faction matter in standings?

Heavy infantry? Sorry to be a scrub, but im new to the game, like the persecutors?
Are they under solos or do you use the warcasters? Once again sorry guys for being so new. Just trying to figure it all out.

*perforators

Mohsar is okay, but not great. He's got some good spells and a feat that's good against hordes and mediocre against warmachine, but his pillars can now be charged and he's geared towards army support, which doesn't mesh with how much work Circle wants its warlocks to be doing now.

Thanks for the insight. Do you have any personal recommendations?

Right now, pKromac and pKrueger are good options, since they're fairly simple and good at what they do. I've always been fond of the Kayas, but they're mostly upper-middle class warlocks as always. Tanith from the starter box is also good, I've been coming up with more and more ways to use her. People also really like the Baldurs, but haven't played with them yet in the new edition.

I think its important that people who are thinking about getting into the game, know that they are a good army. Especially since popularity is a location based factor. What's popular in NorCal could be different than in seattle.

minions are a great army, they are my main hordes army, they just lack the ability and tricks that major factions possess. Being mid tier doesn't mean they are terrible, but you do have to play slightly harder against other armies. You can't just throw a character jack into the enemy lines and call it good.

As for cygnar, alot of people make them a big deal, They aren't unbeatable but the changes to the game made them a little better for some people.

Premeasuring is huge, while most top tier players didn't need the help, the majority of players don't have to think and make good estimates on their attacks. Making the faction overall easier to play for most people.

couple that with amazing shooting units and support. The faction got its lower limit of skill range bumped up.

Also the shift to a jack focused warmachine, mean that jack shooting mean a whole lot more, since taking a shot or two at an enemy jack reduces the enemy army by more points than when it was more spread out in units.

yea, their multi health box infantry

im a different user, but i'd recommend the battle box, its just so cost efficient and lets you feel out the army and naturally try to progress it instead of going in blind.

I just picked up Ret Mk3 battlegroup. How is our new caster? She seems like she's likes Jacks since she can heal and recover shields with her feat. Maybe running 2 Phoenix would be a good combo for her?

As far as Convergence goes, pretty much everything is playable, but it's very caster dependent.

Aurora loves herself some infantry, Axis and Lucant are balanced, Mother can run pure jack, but has some benefits for infantry, and Syntherion pretty much does nothing for them.

In esscence the list sits arround untill its time to win. I tend to play my caster very conservitavly so I dont comit them untill its time to assasinate or score on scenario.
The nyss are there to give the oponent something to kill/snag souls for the trappers. WSC have great boostable stealth guns and pass out mortality/puppet strings. Nightmare and DJ kill stuff/look scary and get filled for free.

The stars of the list are Wrong Eye and Darragh Wraith who together create what I call 'the magical realm' with starcrossed and beyond death.

I'm not sure what I dont drop it into yet. Its preformed well against Ret

I pair it with scaverous and venethrax/lich3

she is indeed a jackcaster and if you can handle a bit of skornagy she works great with multiple sphinges (sphinx), due to thier low point cost to high damage output.

upkeep rhythm of war, cast deceleration every turn, and cast hand of destruction on good targets through a chimera.

There's a simple algorithm for Cryx in the new world:

if !hasStealthHate(army) then
take(BloodWitches + Hag)
else
take(Satyxis+SeaWitch)

>I'm not sure who in Cryx can handle Khador/Ret though
Shouldn't bile thrall, blood gorgers and satyxis make those match up rather easy?

>i'd recommend the battle box, its just so cost efficient and lets you feel out the army and naturally try to progress it instead of going in blind.

I hear you, I just don't like the Orboros box, aesthetically. The only model I like the look of is the werewolf. I'm in it for the golems and such.

Thanks! I'll check 'em out

None of those things survive getting shot by Khador or Ret.

If you're in it for the wolds, you're gonna have an unfortunately bad time of it. They're not great at cracking armor and they're slow. There are three that are worth taking and not even with all casters. Megalith is pretty solid in general, Woldwardens are only really useful with e/pKrueger and maybe Wurmwood, and the Woldwrath goes best with the Baldurs and you kind of have to build your list around it.

>def 16 immune to blast damage
>getting shot off the table by khador

You could also always run an occultation caster

DEF16 isn't enough anymore, not against Joe and Rifle Corps.

Im not the other user, but against a ret shooting list, def 16 isn't too scary.

pressed enter too quickly.

Rat 6
aiming +2
Deadeye + 3.5
Normal roll of 7
= 18.5 of avg dice

not to mention the same unit that can do that, is also a pretty good melee unit aswell with mat7 pow11 and def/ARM 12/17 base.

not to mention furture sight on the jacks

Running screaming into Khador Gun Corp with Joe = Death. They're fucking dumb.

I just don't know what does it in Cryx. I've been toying around with 3 Bloat Thralls + Coven/Shield Guards

just imagine him screaming, "be like bear, comrades!" and everyone in the unit gaining the strength to beat light warjacks in arm wrestling.

maybe 1 Hjack too many?

That is possible on a single caster that has no way of ignoring stealth.
Your scenario involes an upkeep spell, and almost certainly the unit's mini feat if they are aiming.

>future sight on jacks
let them shoot at satyxis with jacks. Unless its the daemon, but people don't like that jack for some reason.
Also, future sight on jacks is only on one caster.

Sounds like Ossyan booty blasted you

Wait, aren't we talking about Raiders?

Or are you still pitching that Occulation caster thing, when eEyriss is a thing?

>when eEyriss is a thing?
You mean they are placing eEyriss within 5" of your satyxis just to cause d3 damage to your caster?
Sounds like your about to be playing 6 points up

Wait, I just looked up.

Your two Occt casters are the ball and eWho.

And both of them hardcore want that spell on themselves so they don't die to Ret shooting.

I'm on a phone so I can't do meme spoilers, but I am the ozzy player ;)

If Jacks have nothing better to shoot at, then shooting at raiders aren't a bad thing.

Turn one upkeep also isn't bad, neither is popping a mini feat on an equal cost unit

Why are you taking Raiders when Witches are a thing?

I think 3Shade has occultation as well and he is still good

Because the convo was about Raiders.

Why are you talking about witches when blasts are a thing?

They have stealth, and you *can* space your pieces out right?

I really only consider them with lich3. I just can't get into them. Its because the prayers are on the sea witch and not the unit leader.

The witches just have more reliable delivery*

*except v khador

You can try to space things out in your 9 inch bubble but I'm dropping templates on you for days.

Because Retribution is an army feared far and wide for its blast templates

Houseguard Thane lets Riflemen and HRT ignore Stealth

In an ozzy list? Yea.

>Houseguard Thane lets Riflemen and HRT ignore Stealth
Good tech.
Its would be a shame if something happened to it.