Warhammer 40k General

How would you feel about Overwatch costing your close combat on the turn you're charged?
If it doesn't already, I'm tired and haven't played in some time.

Overwatch should be something you choose to do in lieu of shooting.

Hey Veeky Forums, I used to play 40k a few years ago, and I'm thinking of getting back into it now that my siblings are interested.

Just wondering how Imperial Guard fare in general, and how Imperial Knights stand up against other armies like AdMech or Orks (What my siblings want).

Also, if anyone has any tips on collecting/building/playing IG/IK, I would appreciate the advice.

I have a large 30K Alpha Legion force and I want to create an element of it that can be played in 40k using C:SM rules. I'm unsure what chapter tactics would fit best for them, I was thinking Ultra's as it shows flexible doctrine, or Raven Guard. Ofc you could claim they are fighting as any chapter therefore any rules can apply... But I want to play them in 40K as Alpha Legion fighting as themselves.

Would be good, but a lot of those who would be fine with it (think of tau) would still be golden while other (marines come to my mind) would drop a lot in efficacity

*are already fine with it

Well Alpha Legion "fighting as themselves" could be basically anything you want. The only ones that wouldn't really work would be Salamanders from a fluff perspective, and Imperial Fists are pretty poop.

Eldar is OP.

Even casual players use jetbike + Wraithlord + Waveserpents + Optimized psykers. Fill out the rest with "flavor" units to justify you playing an overpowered codex.

Ha.

IG are in a much better state now you have the Cadia detachment and formations. Great way to start is the 'start collecting' box. You can then choose if you want mech/mob/tanks from that. Knights are good fun, though can either seem really good vs new opponents or fall short in objective games. Either of those armies will hold well vs AdMech, sadly Orks have a bad time vs everyone as they are really lacking Codex love. Also the renegade box set is great for starting a knight army

+ + +CAD+ + +

HQ:

>Pask (Punisher) - 210
>[Leman Russ Executioner - 155]

Troops:

>Veteran Squad (2x Meltagun) - 80
>[Chimera (Autocannon) - 70]

>Veteran Squad (3x Meltagun) - 90 (In Valkyrie)

>Veteran Squad (Forward Sentries, Vox) - 75

Fast Attack:

>Valkyrie - 125

>Hellhound - 125

Fortifications:

>Aegis Defence Line (Quad Gun) - 100

+ + +Emperor's Wrath Artillery Platoon+ + +

>CCS (Volkov's Cane) - 60
>[Chimera (Autocannon) - 70]

>Techpriest Enginseer - 40

>2x Wyvern - 130

>Manticore - 170

Total: 1500

List I posted last thread but with a couple of slight changes.
Techpriest mans the Quad Gun, Wyverns are two separate units to fulfill the formation requirements, but I couldn't be bothered to do two separate entries.

When I say 'fighting as themselves' I just mean not in the infiltrating legions way

Are you designing this for tournament play ? Because I see one major flaw: no one would like to play against this.

>Eldar is OP
>Wraithlord

Top bait btw

Would that not defeat the entire purpose of overwatch? Why wait to fire hitting only on sixes when you can fire on your full balistic skill in your own turn at the same unit?

I'm saying you could justify almost any CTs with that. Pick one you want.

Then you could troll tau by being close enough to change but never doing it so they never fire their guns.

My LFGS has a "Cadian Defense Force" box so I was thinking of picking that up to start my army off. Gives me either 1 platoon of soldiers or two veteran squads. What all does the Renegades Box come with? Two bodies at least, but what weapons? Can you make a Knight Warden with it? How about Icarus Autocannons?

What was the purpose of it again? Aside from adding another barrier to getting into close combat.

What is the point of the wyverns really in emperors wrath? They already have twin-linked, they don't really benefit from ignores cover, maybe the pinning thing is useful? Correct me if I'm wrong, but points better used else where or find points for basilisks

Name one codex that is can compare to Eldar.

I try to avoid one-dimensional Necro/tau gimmicks and Grav marine shenanigans.

Good luck.

Fair point. And it would help balance the tau a bit.

Giving Tau another layer of "I shoot at you anyways" shenanigans. Next step will be allowing ranged weapons in close combat.

Two groups of upgraded jetbikes and a wraithlord would rape your list.

The rest of the eldar army would just cuck you on objectives.

It's for a tournament with my mates next weekend, it's competitive, but not to retarded levels (i.e: no one is bringing riptide wings, double demi, skyhammer, ridiculous spam lists, etc. The Eldar player uses more than just jetbikes and no wraith units, the tau player just has one Riptide).

8 of us get together for Hammerfest twice a year, it's a lot of fun. Any list can be fun to play with or against if you're doing it with your best friends.

Tau and muhreens can compete. Others just decline games after seeing this kind of list :)

Overwatch is in the game solely because GW can't balance the assault phase worth shit.

Yeah, but this one just looks too painful for normal games, as it requires to specifically tech against it :)

The defence force is a good buy also yeah. You wanna go for the autocannons on the weapons teams btw, and regular battle cannons on russ' aren't worth it with the ordanace rule. Yeah I'm pretty certain the renegade box is 2 of the 'new' warden knight kit

>overwatch hits at full BS

BUT
>negative BS modifier if either unit ran and if the assaulting unit moved
>all assaulting units have some kind of gap closer
>can assault from deepstrike
>if a unit with power lances is charged by a HoW unit, they can do HoW attacks back at the enemy equal to the number of lances at AP -
>all power weapons are dropped to 5 pts across the board, fists to 15
>plasma pistols 10 pts
>minimum charge distance of 4", minimum run distance of 6"

Y/N

"Low tier gods" tell me how you defeat Wraithlords with your "fluffy" army lists.

SoB gets wrecked without allies unless they roll 6's for days on exorcist.

How about the rest of you boys ?

I'm trolling, but I'm also genuinely curious.

Marines, tau, corsairs :^)

I meant if you Overwatch then you don't get to fight back in that round of close combat. It does nothing to the shooting phase.
Am I being stupid because I'm tired? If so please point out where.

wraithlords are the good, balanced wraith construct.

Oh, and

>Epic style suppression mechanic

What's so special about the list ?

Flyers and a few arty pieces is now "TRYHARD MODE" ?

Wake up. His opponents are playing ELDAR.

Fearless swarms work, typhus zombies, zealot conscripts. You can bog them down for a turn. If you are that bothered by Wraithknights tell your opponent and if he sperges out then they aren't worth playing

What's wrong with overwatch as it is ?

Closeted Bloodmarine player ?

One of your veteran squads has a Vox. Why? The only guy who can give him commands is the Company Commander and he doesn't have a vox. You need 2 voxes to get the reroll.

I feel like it'd be more intuitive that way.

Played a Contact Lost Maelstrom Mission against an Ultramarine Battle Company w/ an Armoured Task Force. I was bringing a pure Ravenwing list. Each tile had one ruin and some craters as well as other scraps of terrain but it was built high on the outskirt with a single level ruin in the center.

When we rolled on Contact Lost I figured I was screwed for the mission so I opted to gun him down and obtain what points I could while decimating his fort.

I popped his Predatorand a Razorback on the first turn and grav'd his Vindicator and a second Razorback with the only units that I had scout. The rest turbo boosted for the free jink to protect against the ton of shooting that may come my way. Heavy Bolters from my Support Squadron took out a few Devastators

He poured tactical squads all over the board and scored a few points not much damage besides glancing a Landspeeder, immobilizing a Darkshroud and killing a 3-man grav squad.

I continued to blow up his armor including the Whirlwind that seem misplaced. My Deathstar smashed into a 5 man tac Squad and wiped them while some other Black Knights plasmad his Centurians (that didn't have a transport) that were in poor cover and within rapid fire range.

On his second turn he took out all my meltas besides two separate attack bikes that got tied up by Tac Squads. He finished off the two Double Multimelta Landspeeders. He finally made my Support Squadron and Deathstar Jink but no real damage.

On my third turn I was all over his side of the field, he had a bunch of empty Razorbacks all over and a Dreadnaught shooting at me but most of his tac squads got ripped apart. My jinking Deathstar took out 3/5 marines before the charge and cleaned them up.

His Chaplain and Captain with Jump Packs and some Assault Marines fought well against some black knights taking 4/6 of them out in exchange for 3/8 Assault Marines. His bikes charged mine but died in overwatch. His Thunderfire Cannon killed my Apothecary and another

Yes, but unfortunately I must rid myself of this wooden spoon

I would go with
>No more overwatch, this really sucks, shooty armies already have quite an edge without that
>maybe update the to hit rolls to range from 2+ to 6+ to hit
>min charge distance is 4

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Platoon. The Manticore gets twin-linked if the vox can see what it's shooting at and is within 18" of the Manticore.

I was planning Autocannons. I was also planning to eventually have the option to choose between mortars, Lascannons, and Autocannons.

That's great. I'll have to pick up the Renegade box then, and maybe another Knight Warden later on.

My siblings and I are starting small, and I think that my LFGS is starting a new 40k Escalation league soon. Will the defence force make a decent 500 point army?

I could continue in depth but due to his early landgrab and spread of troops for points and generating objectives he scored 8 to my 5 but conceded at the end of turn five with three Razor Backs, four tactical Marines and a couple Devastators left on the field while I still had Two Darkshrouds, two units of regular black knights, my two HQs with their banner bearer and grenade launcher Black Knights and two Landspeeders.

They're cheap and it lets me use my Manticore, a model I love that now has new purpose. A basilisk is my next hobby purchase, I'm just working with what I've got at the moment.

But you are completely right.

What's wrong with overwatch is not really the mechanic, it's the "extra shooting phase and fuckton of shenanigans that give your opponent half a turn of extra shooting" part. Getting in melee in 40k is already hard, it shouldn't be made harder.

Sooo annoying bike spam beats a mish mash marine list? Was the game any fun, that part seems missing because report wise that looks like a snore fest.

For sure, it makes a really solid 500pts. Command squad, vet squads and a Russ will do fine, that can be the core and upgrade the units where applicable

People have been complaining how little "active" input players have on each others turn since the first edition. This is a step in the right direction.

I'd like the player phases to be interjected even more, such as sacrificing WHOLE phases to get a D3 modified unit moves on your opponent turn and such.

And overwatch and interceptor proves it's not worth having without redoing the game from the ground up.

Why not just use epic rules and trade off turns for each unit (choosing what actions you want to take with a unit, then your opponent does it, then you pick a new unit, so on and so forth)?

Yo, tg. Dark Eldar player here. I recently came to possess 33 (finecast) Wracks; 30 wracks + 3 acothysts. I want to build the acothysts to have some special weapons for if I ever want to drop some more shooting into a squad. Question is this - Build them with 3 liquifiers, or 3 hexrifles?

As I said, the mechanic is fine it's the amount of shenanigans that come with it that is really annoying :)

>Sooo annoying bike spam beats a mish mash marine list?

We had a good time, though it was a pretty quick game for five turns. I always like facing SM but other Space Marine players had been much closer and more of a blood bath. His Tac Spam stuff was pretty eh but he wanted to try it.

So what do I put on the Russ, then? If Battle Cannon isn't good, then what else can the kit in the defence force make?

That's good, I dread having to play against my groups marine player with my marines. The guy has so much IG, Chaos and Ork shit but no he has to use Gravturions and a Knight Crusader the cheeky git.

You can build the vanquisher, eradicator and the auto cannon one I think

Epic is alright, but makes the game very slow.
I'd rather have a hybrid that makes the game faster AND adds a new dimension at the same time. (trading phases/VP for limited immediate interruption.)

>
What shenaningans ? Other than "assault sux now" I don't see whats so broken that a FAQ or 8th edition can't fix.

Now this is true! Both mechanics are crutches to a much bigger flaw in the game.

If you don't want to use the battle cannon, you can buy an Exterminator with bolter sponsons for the same price, or an Eradicator with bolter sponsons for ten points less. The Former gives you autocannons, the latter ignores cover.

>forgeworld with lots of mountains
>hive cities and industries built in the carved mountains
>call it "alpina"

is the latin correct?

I'm fine with that, can we rename the Psychic phase the Command phase? It could include IG orders, Tau marker lights and any other buffs.

Getting nearby units to also fire overwatch, allowing multiple overwatch in the same phase by the same unit, allowing overwatch on squads with hit and run...

How does the Vanquisher fare? S 8 AP 2 Armourbane seems like it could be useful for punching Ork vehicles in the gut, and the AP 2 would be great for taking down the Admech Kastellan Robots that my other brother wants to use.

They are pretty bad as Tank Destroyers unless you are using pask or fielding an Armoured Company CAD. With AC, you can purchase Beast Slayer rounds for the Lead Vanquishers in your squads for 5/10 points each which will grant you a second firing mode with a small blast, str 8 ap2 instant death.

Alpinus or Alpini would be more correct imo.

Your autocannon variant is better in both scenarios. More shots. The problem of the vanquisher is that the dude inside is only BS3, so you'll miss 50% of the time. He gets better when you take a tank commander/pask for the BS buff etc. Also with regards to the robots, they have a rule where a saving throw of 6 reflects the shot back at you! So autocannons can't hurt your front hull

Beast slayer rounds? What book? FW IA?

A common tap IG players fall into.

A vanq is 135 points without Pask. For that, you get a long-range almost-meltagun with BS 3 that shoots 6 times per game.

You hit 3 of these times. Most vehicles in the game have 3 hull points. Given that at least once you will probably fail to roll a good pen result even on 2 dice, you are spending 135 points to take 2 HP off a vehicle per game. It's a huge waste of points. With Pask it gets a little better, but not much.

>but mutlimelta sponsons!

Or just take servitors with multimeltas in an INQ chimera, or even enginseers with meltabots. You get teh same firepower for less. Even better - take meltavets in chimeras for obsec, mobility, and bs4 melta. You lose the range, but they are more reliable and useful overall.

For medium and light vehicles, chimeras are actually better at stripping hullpoints point per point than most other things in the IG list, even if they need 4s 5s or 6s to do it. Volume of shots on cheap platforms and good range behind decent armor with 3 HP to keep it on the table.

High strenght, high rate of fire weapons are enough to handle ork vehicles. They generally dont have high armour and the ones that do (Battlewahon) have weak sides so with positioning one can easily tickle their av12 sides (or av10 backs).

Same with castellans. They have T7 and 3+/5++. They also bounce back shots with 6+ to save so getting your ass lascannon/AT-shell bounced back is going to hurt Vanquisher.

All-in-all, Vanquisher is not great. It has a clear role but doesnt excel in it.

If you want good Lemanruss against both then I suggest Exterminator with hull Lascannon and side Multimeltas. Good all-arounder that puts out ton of shots (more fire is good in 7th due how hullpoints and Monstrous Creatures work) so on average they will hurt almost anything and do it with moderate % of success. And moderate % of success is what IG is all about.

Unless we are talking about Vultures. They arent moderate. They only have one setting: Allout rape of *BRRRRRRRRRT*

Imperial Armoud 1 v2. Its Armoured Battlegroup list. Beasthunter-vanquisher are totally different toys than regular vanquishers.

So how do I deal with AV 14, as IG? Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads?

You're welcome

Rapier laser destroyers. TL ordnance lascannon artillery pieces.

Whats the most fun out of GK, ravenwing and crons? Or are they all pretty good ?

How are autocannon heavy weapons squads? I feel like they'd be useful in my horde-heavy meta.

Vet squads with meltas in chimeras.
Deep striking scions with meltas.
Demolisher russ.
Lascannon squads with tank hunter.
Forge world rapier laser destroyers.

No, IG has few good lascannon options outside of FW (FW has rapier laser destroyers and LR annihilators).

Meltaguns are the best bet for IG. You can take a lot of them on scoring units with BS4 for pretty cheap. They are mobile. You can put them on deep striking units, as well - if you are careful, scions can make their points back as 5-man suicide melta units.

Other than that, other codices are your best bet. Pic related is a beast.

Melta-vets, rapiers, pask in a punisher to an extent, vendettas.

Never heavy weapon squads. Ever. Never ever.

IG has few real ways to deal with av14.

1. Meltagun it. Even better if you can get orders up for Tank Hunters
2. Shoot it with Heavy Artillery Carriages. S10 medusas or S9 basilisks will do wonders, especially since they roll 2d6-take-highest on penetration and can be ordered for Tank Hunters.
3. Those Multimelta sponsons on your russ. A bit risky but you opponent will most likely try NOT to enter within 18" of your russ so they dont eat up to two armorbane S8 ap1 shots.
4. Ignore it. If its empty battlewagon, fuck it. If it cause too much damage, meltabombs are good choice.

heavy weapons teams are too vulnerable to return fire to be called good but of the heavy weapon teams many feel autocannons are the best.

I find grey knights a lot of fun, I've been using my mates a lot recently and have started building a doomglaive dread for him (but actually for me, married couple tier). I've got ravenwing as well and they're also pretty fun, but less so than GK I've found, but I enjoyed building and painting them.

Necrons are fairly boring all round. If you know much about warhammer fantasy at all, they're comparable to dwarves in playstyle.

HW squads in general are poor investments. You are paying a lot for 3 weapons on very fragile platforms that don't work well with orders, since it's hard to buff their leadership in a cost effective way. 50-man platoons are better, but then you run into problems of having 40 lasgun guys sitting around playing with their dicks while the autocannons shoot vehicles.

Chimeras, meltavets, scions (maybe) are your best bets. The vendetta gunship can be good if you use it wisely, otherwise it's a huge points sink.

And before you ask, yes - I have used heavy weapons squads before.

What's the point of archons?
It seems to me the only way not to make them died weight is to spend 100000 points of war-gear on them.

Please say there is a real use for them outside of deep striking a raider.

+1 vets in chimeras

+1 deep striking scions

x demolisher russ

x lascannon squads

+1 FW laser destroyers

I see.

This list is supposed to just be a casual list but should I spend the points on those HW teams somewhere else then?

Oh and of course.

Vendettas. You can hardly go wrong with 3 Twin-Linked Lascannon shots.

If you're going to bring scions, make sure to take an allied detachment or double HQ CAD for their unique orders and special weapons spam.

You can when it costs 170 points. Vendettas are honestly better at dropping medium vehicles, finishing off independent characters, that kind of thing. They can hurt AV 14 in a pinch, but they are an expensive way to do it. If you put a platoon command squad in there, they become scoring and then you get more mileage out of fielding them.