I hate Dragonborn, do you?

I hate Dragonborn, do you?

Yes

"Lizard People" is done better with other races/creatures.

"Dragon-related Race" is done better AND first with things like Kobolds and Half-Dragons

"Other Race who works to become more like a dragon" was done first with Dragon Disciple.

Dragonborn have no clear reason to exist. I wouldn't say I hate them but they're kind of a beacon of the bad parts of later 3.5 and 4e for me.

Hell, even if you're looking for a "Race that came out in late 3.5/4e that's done way better than Dragonborn", you've got Warforged.

Dragonborn don't excel in any niche.

Actually the real problem is that the reason Dragonborn exist is so someone can be half-dragon without the level adjustment.

At least that's how I read it.

I don't really hate them myself, the trick is often just finding a niche for them in my campaigns besides "they are there", and try not to be petty or something and say "no, I don't like them, you can't play them."

I really enjoy them. I was neutral on the concept, but I got into a game and ended up making one, and the mechanics and in setting position of them are really interesting and fun.

They aren't very well thought-out.
They seems like something more out of scifi in some ways rather then fantasy, and the thinness of their entire deal and characterization seem to bear out the theory that they were purely created as a way to appease newer players who wanted to play dragons for whatever reason.

I don't have any issue with them whatsoever. My group has a Dragonborn sorcerer, and it's just fine.

I suspect the real problem, going by what I hear on Veeky Forums, is that Dragonborn lend themselves to being played very, very obnoxiously by That Guy. But I don't think there's any inherent issue with them, aside from personal preference.

I greatly prefer them to half-dragons. I'll take Jim Henson muppets over Jim Henson makeup jobs any day.

>Half-Dragons
I honestly like those less than Dragonborn even if they make somewhat more sense in origin, if only because the inherent shittitude of being "Half-[Ancient Super Being]" is always present. Anyone playing a Half-Dragon are always about an inch away from falling off the cliff of edginess that Aasimar and Tieflings live in, and they have the "Descended from" caveat, rather than the "My mom was a slut for non-humans".
Honestly Spellscales do the job a lot better for that caveat too, since they're also originated from the "So what if we took Sorcerer's bloodline shit SUPER literally" thing.

I'm pretty sure back when Half-Dragon were playable that wasn't an issue, but that was before 3.5 went fucking batshit with supplements.

I don't hate them but their concept in 4e and beyond of being "Lizard people from another realm who have breath weapons" is kinda boring. Even in D&D likes the Dragonborn are kinda' meh on their origins.

Then again in 3.5 they were a fucking race comprised of people that sucked Bahamut's dick so hard that they turned into dragons. So...no matter what they're just a gateway to furfagging.

Kinda, but they haven't brought dragonfire adept from 3.5 to 5e, so nothing else has a breath weapon for me to use.

I'm indifferent about dragonborn. I can't say they *shouldn't exist*, it's nice to have the option of a beast race without level adjustment or Drizzt syndrome, but I probably would never include them in an original setting except as rare NPCs.

Vehemently.

Not once I realized I could have them be fantasy Mandalorians pretty easily.

>3eboldposter

Your opinions are literally worthless. Now go head back to the PathFurry General

DRAGONBORN ARE COOL

I like them
lizardmen that are more like dragons than lizards to make them more intelligent, its cool

I concur. 5e's Dragonborn are just fine.

With that said, it triggers my autism that they don't have tails. I don't know why that bothers me, but it does.

Kobolds are shit

they- they don't have tails?

well fuck me sideways i guess i drew my character wrong.

In every DND game ive ever played, we unanimously agree that Dragonborn have tails

I'd like them better if they were just humans with dragon bits tacked on, but at least theyre not 3e dragonborn

im glad that some people on Veeky Forums have sense.

one thing i didnt realize is that female dragonborns have breasts. so i think i accidentally made my dragonborn trans without realizing it.
why do the lizards have titties, though?

Dragonborn don't have tails? Fuck that bullshit, in my campaigns, they have tails, DM's law.

my niggers.

you just want this, don't you?

well that's kind of a cool way to do it.

You know, I was actually thinking of making it in my campaign setting that Dragonborn ARE half-dragons, sort of.

Basically, half-dragons CAN'T just breed with everything in the setting without some serious mojo involved. The end result is that the child is kind of less 'half-dragon half-whatever' and more, well... ALL dragonborn.

Because of this ritual's residual energies being in their blood, it means the few races dragonborn can interbreed with just push out more dragonborn.

The magic eventually will fade over generations until, like about 10 generations down, they try to breed with a non-dragonborn and out pops the non-dragonborn parent's race. Though the energies of the ritual renew if the dragonborn has two dragonborn parents.

I pulled most of this out of my ass as I was typing.

Our group similarly agreed that Dragonborn have tails. They just don't seem right without them.

>Lizard tits

The same reason Argonians in TES and Vipers in XCOM have them, [pseudoscientific or magical reason that serves as a thin disguise for "sex appeal"].

I feel ashamed that I recognize that art.

also whats with everybody being so into humanoid dragonborns? where is the love for scaly lizard people

Actually, the answer would vary.

in the case of Dragon-related species, a friend of mine propositioned this: because dragons AREN'T exactly reptiles or mammals. They're an ancient, primordial race that have existed since before mammals and reptiles split, or in many ways, they're their own class in the animal kingdom.

with Argonians though, Hist sacks make some sense since, what's an argonian mother going to do if she lays her eggs far from the nearest hist tree? You'd think the Hist would have some foresight on this.

I've never seen someone so mad about something so inconsequential.

Actually with Argonians the Hist gave them breasts so they can seem more relatable to non-Argonians.

More like this

Thats what lizardfolk are for

yup

no because I'm not such an autistic fuckwit that I hate anything even remotely related to anthropomorphic animal characters

Female Argonians don't actually have breasts in Morrowind, though I don't know what the lore explanation is for the variance in Argonian physiology between different regions.

Or this

>what's with everybody being so into humanoid dragonborns

Because they'd have trouble walking if they lacked legs, have trouble in fights without arms or if you made their arms wings, they would just be weird if their heads were in their chests, and it's hard to hold a weapon if you'r a quadruped. And also party members then insist on riding on your back.

there's that too.

that doesn't look too bad, got more?

id let everybody ride on my back. i'd be puff the motherfucking magic dragon.

No, just this
Really, I just like the tiefling look for dragon people

Not at all. It's a much nicer way to be a playable dragon without being a total fucking joke with it like half dragons. I'd sooner let my players play PC dragons than half dragons, and Dragonborn easily fix that problem to be a non issue.

>Spellscales
This was THE best way to do a playable dragon race, imo.

Yes, with a passion. Not because I think they are poorly done but because how they were shoehorned into Forgotten Realms and other settings. It felt incredibly artificial and forced and for me they symbolize how the marketing team took over creative control.

So, yeah FUCK DRAGONBORN. Fuck the spellplague. Oh and fuck the new tieflings.

On the other hand, If they had been introduced with a NEW setting that'd be totally fine. Breddy cool lizards in that case. But that was not the case.

This too I guess

I really, honestly, don't. They're alright. Not worse than gnomes, certainly.

Nope. Dragonborn make a lot of sense in-universe, especially given the cosmology of the D&D universe.

1) Dragonborn mature much faster and can breed true, so they don't require the same kind of inter-species escapades that Half-Dragons require. I mean, to a dragon, sleeping with a human must be like a human mating with a rabbit. Most would find it distasteful or even taboo, even if there's shapeshifting involved. Regardless, Dragonborn get around that qualm and can serve as 'fodder troops' for Bahamut and Tiamat (and perhaps Io and the others, if they're so inclined).

2) If Dragonborn don't have Draconic souls, then they don't deplete the finite reserves of draconic soul energy that sustains dragonkind. If they DO have Draconic souls, then they can serve as a useful safeguard and power battery for all Dragon gods, who explicitly exist due to the faith and worship of their Draconic followers. According to the 2E Draconomicon, a Dragon God only dies when his last draconic true believer dies, and some ancient dragons exist solely to keep their obscure Dragon Gods alive. No, really, check out the book, there's an example dragon in one of the mini-adventures in the back.

3) Dragonborn can more easily use humanoid-designed magical items, which are the majority, and can deal with humanoid settlements and cultures without being driven away for being a huge goddamn dragon. They're 'human' enough to fit in and function, and 'dragon' enough to serve as a constant reminder of the power and influence of their creator deities.

4) Transforming a humanoid into a Dragonborn (as outlined in D&D 3E) can be a useful reward or incentive for loyal followers of Bahamut and Tiamat. You can't make someone a Half-Dragon, but you can perform a ritual that turns a willing individual into a Dragonborn.

Naw. I prefer half dragons from 2e though.

I just hate the fact that out of all the interesting playable races that came out in some of 3.5's splatbooks, that these fucks got chosen to be pushed hardcore as the new cool race, and not something actually interesting.

>Do you hate Dragonborn?
4e Dragonborn? Yeah. Half-dragons in general? NOPE.

We could have fucking had Lizardfolk. They had a culture, they had a history, they could have been secretly worshipping dragons. No, instead we have to have HUMANOID DRAGON PEOPLE who BREATHE FIRE.

Oh fuck Gnomes, what's the point of them?

They tinker shit? Well, Dwarves are master engineers, shouldn't tinkering shit be their deal?

They're sneaky little people who view bigguns as clumsy? Halflings do that without being tools about it because Halflings don't need illusions, they're just that quiet, and because Halflings are chill instead of being smug little shits.

Worst of all, Gnome characters attract SJW players like spilled Chinese food draws ants.

Why do you need a breath weapon when you can throw fireballs?

Furries will never, ever be cool.

That said, Dragonborn do have a purpose in 5e. They make an interesting replacement for orcs as the generic monster enemy. It's easier to take enemy soldiers seriously when they have real armor and breathe fire than when they're best known for being green retards.

Yes, we want humanish ones like Giera or whatever they were called.

Where it belongs, with actual Lizardfolk. "Muh honorable superior culture" Dragonborn are furry bait pure and simple.

The worst part is that they're a "goodly" race, so you're expected to tolerate them coming to our cities, throwing their weight around, get drunk and setting our taverns on fire when they aren't scowling at us as though they're too proud and honorable to drink, pushing their gods on us, and refusing to integrate. Humans, Brown Elves, Halflings, and Dwarves are the only species that belong in this alliance, and I hope someone does a little arson in the Dragonborn quarter tonight to prove it.

>Humans, Brown Elves, Halflings, and Dwarves
But what about the non-brown elves?
My wife's a non-brown elf, man.
I'm with you on the "Dragonborn are arrogant pricks" front, but you're taking the whole thing a bit far.

No, because I want to look like a Dragon.

Fuck your wife and fuck her sideways pale elf vagina. You can't judge all pale elves by looking at your favorite one. Non-brown elves just want to use us for their own benefit, not actually integrate and contribute to society. They openly believe a human life is worth 1/10 of an elf's life. I mean, good for you finding a good one, but she's a regular elf and not one of the ones that makes decisions for her people like whether or not they'll actually send troops if the Dragonborn revolt or the Orcs invade.

>sideways pale elf vagina
Trust me man, that's not true at all.
It's a perfectly normal vagina.
>They openly believe a human life is worth 1/10 of an elf's life
That's one, extremist group within their society, whose rhetoric is quite similar to your own.

There was PoL

I'm not advocating we use them as fucking shields against every wannabe Dark Lord that comes along and breed intensively with their royals so that they'll grow up loyal to their mother's people, I just don't think we should have an alliance with them at all when we do the bulk of the work and get none of the reward. Don't let your dick lead you into betraying your people, man, even if you should have gotten a proper, traditional brown elf wife like I did I can understand and respect your choice...but not when it makes you blind to the machinations of the pale elven royalty and their centuries-old schemes. I get the feeling they're the ones pushing for more Dragonborn here, too.

Do you just believe everything you read on arcanet blogs?
You're rambling incoherently like a madman.

Dragon people are cool, it's just that the D&D ones look really goofy. Half-dragons look so much better.

I have no personal issues with Dragonborn.

As long as you don't play one like the on-again-off-again That Guy in my group where, when he was playing a Dragonborn Paladin, would run through dungeon doors and quickly attract the attention of monsters without any backup to support him and almost die, then you're a fucking golden apple in my book.

I prefer to do it as lizard people, and anyone, regardless of race, can choose Draconic Ancestry as a level 1 only feat. That way, you can be a dragonborn, or you can be a human with a draconic bloodline, or a kobold with more dragon in him than most, or even a character who gained draconic resemblance by consuming a dragons heart (for story reasons like that I would waive the level one only restriction). Basically, allow for in-depth customization instead of needlessly pointless core races. There is also a feat for Anglelic Heritage, Demonic Heritage, Fey Heritage, and various other subspecies (elves can be drow, wood elves, ect, ogre characters can choose to be trolls, oni, and so on for all the races).

You'd understand if you'd taken the octarine pill like me. You're still trapped in an illusion.

The "from another Realm" thing was FR only.

Forgot to mention the best part, having a level one species feat eliminates the need for any level adjustment.

Dragonborn don't lean Good, though. They lean Good or Evil, because the majority of them pick either Bahamut or Tiamat to worship.

They're not lizards, depending on edition they're dragons that mutated into humans or humans that mutated into dragons.

Either way human females tend to have tits.

I liked them better when Dragonic was just a template to throw onto other races like in 3.5's Dragonomicon. I always liked reusing the mad wizard trying to become a dragon and having a legion of failed experiments of whatever living thing he could get his hands on half turned into a scaley fire breathing menace.

>Because of this ritual's residual energies being in their blood, it means the few races dragonborn can interbreed with just push out more dragonborn

That makes a lot of sense! A few of my players have requested playing as a dragonborn, but I detest "dragonborn" as they're written otherwise in 4e. But, now I can try to incorporate it a bit better. This is probably how I'm going to make this work now:

First generation half dragons (i.e.One of their parents was a dragon) could have the most powerful dragon abilities and the most draconic physical features (dragon-shaped heads with horns and sharp teeth, scales, claws, tails, etc) present. Your typical "half dragon" falls around here, though I typically don't allow my players to have wings without some special concession being made for them.

As generations go on, the draconic genes show up less and less in their lineage, and do not manifest themselves as much (less and less powerful breath weapons, maybe no tails, maybe less scales, etc)

What most people and RPG books describe as a "dragonborn" has a relatively close relation to a dragon in their genealogy, perhaps a great-great-great-great-great grandparent or closer (I'm making this up right now, this is not set in stone or anything.) The dragon, if not killed otherwise, would likely still be alive, especially if the other half of its lineage is human.

Eventually, their shared heritage with dragons will be so distant that they'll only have a few scales here and there, or maybe sharper claws/nails and a disposition toward magic.

Dragons are curious enough to intermingle with the culture of humanoid races and keep replenishing the gene pool, but they wouldn't necessarily do it enough so that people with scales on their cheeks or "dragonborn" looking people are remotely frequent among the common folk. My NPCs are scared of these people.

Are your half dragons born in mammal-style childbirth, or are they hatched in eggs?

Does it depend on who is the mother?

There are basically nil metallic dragonborn, most of them are chromatic, and nearly all of the last category are assholes or minon race fodder.
Also, all of them are non-native to the area.
What do you think?

>There are basically nil metallic dragonborn, most of them are chromatic, and nearly all of the last category are assholes or minon race fodder

What is the reason for this? I'd expect a towering armored fucking dragon dude to be great bad guy material. Maybe not BBEG, but a great first-in-command guy like vader or something. Not a common sight, of course, but if a red half-dragon had the means, I could see him or her rising through the ranks and becoming an evil badass easily.

Further, Metallic half dragons (assuming there are metallic dragons in your setting) are fantastic candidates for adventurers. In fact, I just did a thing with one of my players who was half bronze dragon where her mother (the dragon) was going to take her adventuring with her when she was old enough, but our campaign took her away before that.

>Also, all of them are non-native to the area

Easiest way to make them more rare, I guess. Where WOULD they be native to, then?

Got a sauce on that third image?

I literally just googled "half dragon" and it was somewhere at the top of the results page I still have it saved, so here ya go

It was a diamond in the rough, try googling it yourself if you want to cringe at some edgy character art

Thankee, didn't want to crop the thing and reverse image search. Felt like too much effort.

Someone mentioned 4th edition again, didn't they?

No problem! I like it too; she's almost like a zora with claws

Post half-dragons

...

...

Nay, they are good

>hurr durr durr durr

>I hate Dragonborn
Oh fun, another thing to add to the enormous checklist of things Veeky Forums disallows. Pretty soon we're going to be out of content.

>I don't know what the lore explanation is for the variance in Argonian physiology between different regions.
An Argonian's appearance varies depending on how much sap they lick from the Hist tree during their naming ceremony. Those that consume more sap end up looking more humanoid, while those that drink less end up looking more like their original lizard form.

So basically the ones in Morrowind are losers that didn't lick a tree enough.

glad you liked that.

in an urban fantasy story I collab on with a friend, it actually depends on if the mother is the human or dragon.

Which means my friends half-dragon character was a live birth.

Mine ended up apparently breaking out of an egg because his mom was the dragon.

Since this was something my friend figured on their own, I was a little surprised myself.

>Worst of all, Gnome characters attract SJW players like spilled Chinese food draws ants.

Never heard of this until now. Explain.

>this slime needs to be eradicated
Fuck you, man!

>ITT autists and grognards who need races to please their peens, hate change, and are afraid of the big bad furry bogeyman.

Or Dragonborn are just poorly written and were poorly hamfisted into previously existent settings.

Let me tell you the story of my setting, because it doesn't make sense otherwise..

>There was this swell land where giants and rabbitfolk and fishfolk and genies were the only races, sans the gods.
>Everyone could inherently use magic, like it was breathing, but more stuff like curses and blessings and shapeshifting than Fireball or Gate.
>There were no planes, because everything was connected.

>The child of the god of death and the goddess of life was the goddess of magic and chaos, and she was only surpassed in power by her parents.
>She was childish and flighty, because none of her actions really had consequences- she could just magic everything back together when she was done.

>Then a god called Gruumsh contacted her father about bringing orcs into the land.
>Her father agreed, as long as they used the same rules as the other people that lived there.
>Soon after, Corellon contacted her father as well, and the same terms were struck for elves.

>Now, some of the giants of the land used their magic to become smaller so that they could talk as equals to the orcs and the elves, without scaring them, so the orcs and elves thought they were humans.
>The name stuck.

>Eventually, one of the elves wanted to know how the native people used magic, but there was no way any of the natives could understand what they meant.
>To them, magic just happened.
>When the elves explained how magic worked back where they came from, the natives wanted to learn, and thought it wasn't fair that they could use magic and the elves and orcs couldn't.
>The goddess of magic didn't like this, because she wanted to do magic her way, but she eventually agreed after constant prodding from various sources.
>Magic was codified this way in Vancian terms.

>The goddess had also heard about dragons and how they could naturally use magic as well, so she invited some dragons and dragonborn over to make sure that at least someone retained inherent magic (the kind of magic she liked).

As usual Veeky Forums's arguments against them are "muh furries" and "they shouldn't be a core race" so I'll just reply with an equally oversimplified argument.
They look badass and I like them. If someone else wants to fap to them it's not my problem and I couldn't care less.

Actually, all those races existing seems like the best reason for attempting to condense it all into one single race. Because, do we reallt need three or four different types of scalies with small variations when all they really are are ways for people to play as lizards.

>This entire thread in a nutshell

>She ended up liking dragons so much, she usually took the form of a purplish-metal (for speshul snowflake uniqueness) dragon whenever she took physical form, because being a primordial goddess of magic makes you pretty ephemeral in most cases.
>She also conveniently ignored all of the chromatic dragons hurting the elves and orcs.

>Fast forward 1000 years or so, some elves and orcs start breaking the 'no race war' rule.
>However, at this point, they're so entrenched in the world that as a mercy, the god of death only tells Gruumsh and Corellon to go and stay go.
>Their domains are picked up by orcish/elven demigods.

>With structured magic, the planes have separated from each other and become more normalized.
>Now magic is pretty much completely Vancian, and the goddess of magic is running out of patience.
>Turns out being the goddess of chaos AND inherent magic at the same time doesn't get you many worshippers.
>Divine rulebook says you can only have as much influence on the plane relative to your worshippers, no buts- only her parents get this pass because without them the whole show falls apart.

>So she sets herself up as a goddess of hedonism, stepping on the toes of a couple of the gods and attracting followers by promising them sorcerer powers.
>She's pretty much a semi-benevolent MTG Black goddess.
>Eventually, her influence swells, but her followers start getting pretty sketchy and the church is pretty much completely corrupt rather than just moderately corrupt like most power structures.

>The people that don't like her start really not liking her- her worship is legally banned in some areas, which infuriates her.
>The breaking point comes when basically the Pope of another god gives this tremendous Lawful Good speech about the need for moderation and generosity rather than mindless self-indulgence.
>She fucking goes livid, changes one of her domains to Fear, and rounds up all of her followers into an army.
(Cont, again, because why not.)

I actually see more upset/lack of argument from people defending them, funny enough. People seem to be oddly upset others don't like their pet race.

>Veeky Forums in a nutshell

Fixed that for you.

Don't forget you can play as an actual dragon, as if FC wasn't based enough.

Well, a mini-dragon, but still.

Not really, but I think I preferred them when they were called Draconians.

>Festival of LG pope's god, everyone there is having a great time
>Pope's paladin bodyguard was given leave because obviously nobody would be stupid enough to attack the pope on their holiest and happiest festival
>High priest of magic goddess brutally murders the LG pope in front of thousands
>Paladin swears revenge

>Turns out having the Fear domain means you gain power when people are afraid of you, regardless of whether they actually worship you or not
>Her power skyrockets in response to this WTF event
>The god whose pope she had shanked confronts her
>She attacks him, actually putting him out cold, he goes into a coma to seal away some of her power
>The god of war, brother to the god she attacked, flips the fuck out and fights her with moderate success

>Everyone's losing their shit
>She fuses every plane but the heavens back together and basically states that she's gonna reset everything
>This is a Very Bad Thing
>The paladin from before gathers up a party to fight her

>Chromatic dragons join her because it's better than fighting her
>Metallic dragons fight her on principle
>She goes full shadow/chromatic and curses the metallics

>It's the end of the world
>Chromatic dragons are slaughtering basically all the humanoids
>The rabbitpeople fucked off
>The genies fucked off
>The fishpeople either fucked off or went insane
>Some ogres and giants swapped sides to the goddess

>There aren't many metallic dragons left, only two or so of each type
>More dragonborn, but not quite as many
>They join up with the paladin
>We are canceling the apocalypse.mp4

>Forces of good win
>Goddess is now CE (no shit) and swears revenge
>Her power is split up so she never pulls that shit again

>She has an ongoing curse on metallics and metallic dragonborn that there can only be one lineage of any of them at any given time or her followers kill the rest
>Chromatics still worship her because she encourages their evil
>Most of them turn into not-orcs
(Cont again)