Chaos Tech

Think of all the rules the Ad-Mech have to discourage any form of innovation. Rules that the Dark Mechanicus would ignore.

I wonder how many Dark Mechanicus research projects end due to daemons showing up and killing everyone involved.

That's not true because every legion can take land speeders and land raiders in 30k. I know the reason why they can't take land speeders is something something grav plates too hard to maintain, but there's literally no reason why they don't have access to land raider variants.

Huh, that must be something that's changed in the fluff then. I fairly certain I'm right about Arch-Magos Land though, it sounds stupid enough to be real

that just bugs me. yet another chaos bit is just corrupted loyalist tech

I have read the story about Land, and that being the ridiculous reasoning for the vehicle names.

I'm willing to bet you're right about the Land Speeders, but Chaos definitely has the Land Raiders, but only the lascannon model (Godwyn I think).

The Crusader was created by the Black Templars, a 2nd founding chapter, and the Redeemer is a variation based off of the Crusader. That's why Chaos would lack those two.

I clearly remember pieces of fluff talking about land raider companies going around during the heresy so there must be something wrong here

If I recall correctly, the land speeder thing is because they're very finicky devices that require a lot of delicate maintenance, and chaos marines don't have access to the necessary precision technology to keep speeders in working order.

I suppose it's hard to get forge worlds to work properly in the warp.

I thought their manufacturing and maintenance capabilities were very limited, even with the Dark Mechanicus being around.

Chaos is not exactly helpful for science.
I mean, yeah they are free from the restrictions the orthodox Mechanicus face. But while the orthodox members of the red cloth are unstable and secluded at the best times, with chaos involved that goes up to batshit insane and completely paranoid.

Literally no good reason. GW writers have fudged some transparent excuses that aren't really credible, but in the end it just comes down to "because that's how the armies are in the army books". Same reason why Chaos daemons are so unchaotically uniform - because rules first, fluff later.

In universe it's because the CSM don't have access to all the new STCs that the Imperium found. They're also a bit strapped for supplies, a lot of them are using heresy era bolters and what not.

Gameplay wise it's to differentiate CSM and SM. Space Marines get special land raiders, landspeeders, storm(insert bird name) flyers, etc.

Chaos doesn't have these things, but they get stuff like Obliterators, Daemon Engines, Demon Princes, etc to (in theory) make up for it.

It's mainly the lack of infrastructure. Compared to the Loyalists, the average Chaos Marine gets by not via some Chaos Forge World but rather whatever they can scavenge from their enemies. Where a Loyalist would have entire planets making gear like armor, weapons & vehicles for them, the average Traitor doesn't.

>Chaos is not exactly helpful for science

Indeed. Lets think about how the 'scientists' in each faction would behave:

> Khorne
Lots of them would die because they want to be killing things themselves, which puts them on the front lines of a battle, probably with experimental equipment that needs more lab testing before it's subjected to a real battle.

Probably also lots of anger any time an experiment doesn't go as planned. Which leads to lots of setbacks due to stuff destroyed in anger.
> Slaanesh
To much self testing of the drugs they are developing.
> Nurgle
Their workspaces are too contaminated to produce repeatable results.
> Tzentch
One scientist working on his own could probably produce results. But single scientists are very limited in what they can do without a team. Once they form a team, their plotting against each other will lead to them lying to each other a lot. The honesty that a research team needs between its members simply isn't there.

That's just a Mk 3 helmet with mods bruh.
Are you new to the setting?

It's less that Chaos isn't helpful, and more than the personal tinkering and modifications done that creates unique vehicles is not the same as creating a standardized pattern of entirely new vehicles.

Is there some chaos mod of a Land Raider that's covered in mechadendrites and gets melee attacks? Sure. Does more than one of such vehicle exist? No.
I think this is what you're angling for, but you don't explicitly say it.

Basic fluff explanations I can think of were that some STCs and tank variants were found/invented post heresy so traitor legions don't have them, chaos lacks the unity and infrastructure to maintain things like anti-grav for speeders, followers of chaos are more distrusting of each other than ad mech so when a warpsmith dies, his info and research tends to go with him, they lack resources in the warp for major things, they have less forge worlds, life in the eye is nearly constant warfare so research isn't really capable of happening. I know I'm forgetting some though.

game-wise itt's to prevent
csm from really just being marines with spikes on them.

No just really fucking wasted, I just went back to look and ya. Didn't see the eye NOT covered, thought it was just a one sided thing.

Well, they're few, and generally don't get along. Numbers and co-operation are strength when it comes to creativity. On the other hand, they have no reason to be held back by any of the Imperium's self-imposed limits. But mostly just numbers and co-operation.

OP here, thanks for the useful information DESU i was mostly annoyed by the fact that the roster of chaos shit is very very limited. and it seems weird that chaos, who are supposed to be chaotic and random and everything have so little customization, im hoping for changes with another codex but atm its really dumb.

>Is there some chaos mod of a Land Raider that's covered in mechadendrites and gets melee attacks? Sure

Does it function at all when taken out of the warp ?

Good question.

Would you want to find out in the middle of a battle ?

Or would you just stick with the ancient equipment designs that you know function in the materium ?

My biggest complaint is the lack of vehicles and units that make up a an adequate or just down right substitute for all these power toys the loyalist get, at least we got deamons to make up for them right guys? *turns to see the daemons huddled up all together and seperate* "uuh ya's we good and all but we ain't fivhtin with chu no more, we good douh so laters"

How does ammo work for demon engines like Obliterators, Forgefiends, Defilers, and the like. Since they are machine and demon do they have unlimited ammo based on their warp power, or does a Forgefiend get pallets of autocannon rounds shoved up its ass?

>do they have unlimited ammo based on their warp power, or does a Forgefiend get pallets of autocannon rounds shoved up its ass?
One way for some. The other way for others. Both if Slaanesh is involved.

This post reads mostly like gibberish.
Are you talking about taking some object of the materium inside the immaterium (chaos), and seeing what happens? Given the context, the only way this works is if you somehow stuck a Gellar field on a Land raider.

Otherwise, you seem to be taking the meaning of "chaos mod" far too literally.

Some of the fluff mentions them eating metal and munitions and drinking oil, so I assume they have some method of self-manufacture.

IA13 says that forgefiends eat dead people and dead machines and then their daemon magic turns that scrap into warp bullets, and vraks mentions that blight drones are seen 'feeding' (no idea how that works), so most daemon engines probably feed off of organic life somehow to power their non energy based weaponry.

I'm talking about taking something that was designed and built in the immaterium by followers of chaos and trying to use it to fight a battle in the materium.

I wonder how many battles the Imperium has seen where the weapons of the chaos forces fail to work, or horribly backfire, because the weapons weren't built with the materiums laws of physics in mind. Or maybe the daemon powering the thing can't stay manifested for the entire battle.

All the stuff that everyone else has said about not benefitting from post-heresy tech innovations, and being short on supplies. But aaaaalso.

Recently fallen chapters do have the new tech however the better it is the more maintenance it requires so it also becomes an issue of not having the technical knowhow to maintain complicated technology like grav manipulation.

yeah agree, i miss the old days of veteran skills and build your own daemon prince/chaos lord

though that said the veterans skills were bloody expensive, but at least you could infiltrate with chosen (chaos veterans)

>gw is really dumb
>i just now figured this out

Welcome to the party, pal!

the biggest glaring exclusion from the chaos codex is drop pods

the major issue with chaos that restricts the usage of chaos space marines is a lack of delivery method (forgeworld doesnt count)

also in universe it doesnt make sense as for chaos space marines securing and maintaining drop pods would be a priority, it just doesnt match their narrative that they would instead prefer to enter the battlefield via drop ships and traverse the battlefield purely in rhino's

also even without the different varients the landraider just ends up being a very expensive assault transport, lacking power of the machine spirit the vehicle can provide little fire support as it advances, you can only shoot at one target and due to the sponson weapons being so far apart you have practical issues getting them to shoot at the same target

List of factions from the most technologically advanced to the lowest :

-DaoT humanity
-
-
-
-
-Eldar
-Necrons
-Imperium
-Chaos
-Tau
-Orks
-Tyranids

Is this correct?

No

Orks
-
-
-
-
-
Everyone Else

Pretty certain Necrons should top that list.

Mostly because other they'd in a manner of speaking be SM+.

Lore wise, Warbands from the Traitor Legions and Chapters that went renegade thousands of years ago don't have access to certain things like the Land Raider variants because they're either recently rediscovered STC blueprints or innovations.

In a way though it doesn't make much sense because something like the Crimson Slaughter should have access to most, if not everything a SM Chapter does since they only recently went rogue. I guess to truly play Renegades GW just expects you to use the SM codex.

It actually makes a bit of sense, for a Chaos version to exist there is a decent possibility that a Loyalist version existed first. Also it possibly opens up the idea of there being Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or generic Chaos drones and not it just being something Nurgle has access to.

Customization is not necessarily good, the more options you have the less likely they are to be either balanced as a whole or even good.

People like to talk about how the old CSM codex gave you a lot of options, they don't say how many of them were actually viable and how many were useless.

>putting tau behind chaos and Imperium of "secret of forging this vehicle has been lost long ago"

Im no tau lover, in fact I dislike them, but I have to admit that tau is way more advanced then Imperium of man and Chaos. Pulse riffles, all drones `n shit. Having resources and ability to mass produce because of fuckloads of forge worlds =/= technologically advanced. Hell, on Battlefleet gothic it was mentioned that non-mechanicus ships have to reload their macrocannons using slave labour. (maybe it was retconned)

More like
-Necrons
-DaoT humanity
-
-
-Eldar
-Imperium
-Tau
-Chaos
-
-Orks

I'd be hesitant to even put Tyranids on the list, if only because they have no use for actual technology. They use biological equivalents entirely and comparing that to the industrial technology of the other factions is like trying to add apples and oranges.

>or does a Forgefiend get pallets of autocannon rounds shoved up its ass?
I think it eats anything, from corpses to ceramite, and makes THAT into ammo.

Technically the necrodermis and others isn't exactly their tech, but gifts from the C'tan.
I'm fairly sure the Old Ones were the most technically-advanced in the setting. Creating life is pretty big.

>Technically the necrodermis and others isn't exactly their tech, but gifts from the C'tan.

.....

Necrontyr had Necrodermis before they met the C'tan. In fact, Necrontyr clothed the non-sentient C'tan with Necrodermis to give them a copereal form. So how can you say what you just said? When the C'tan awoke, they didn't give the Necrons nothing but cosmic and eldritch knowledge. The Necrontyr had to work with the knowledge and decipher and translate it into equations and then use it to create technology.

If a gave scientists raw data, do I have all the credit for everything they do with it?

Also it's stated that the Necrontyr had superior technologies compared to the Old Ones.

You bloody racist.

The entire idea of a list of factions in order of how "technologically advanced" they are doesn't make much sense because their tech bases are so different.
Craftworld Eldar have lots of psychic stuff.
The Dark Eldar have intentionally turned away from having psykers. But they still understand the warp/webway. They are probably the best at capturing a foe alive.
Necrons have no psychic stuff
Chaos have literal daemons helping their stuff work and bend/break physical laws.
Orks have their gestalt field, which also messes with physical laws, just in more reliable ways.
The Tau are more advanced than the average Imperium in most areas. Though the Tau don't understand the Warp at all.

Likely nothing except things coming out of the Forge of Souls exists entirely within the Immaterium and that is pretty much stuff like Soul Grinders. The closest CSM or the Dark Mechanicus would come to that is a daemonworld which exists in both the Immaterium and Materium, in which case the laws of the latter probably do exist in some form. At the very least it'd be simple to just send out the technology and see if it works.

Matching the Imperium and Tau up techwise is hard without any parameters.

Tau technology is better than what the Guard has access to, possibly even some of what SM have access to, but it's incredibly likely that the Imperium and Mechanicum have more than a few things squirreled away which are ancient and shit all over the Tau.

It's similarly hard to compare Chaos and Tau because Chaos could have access to incredibly destructive stuff.

And as the user above said, both have at least a modicum of understanding about the Warp which the Tau can't seem to wrap their heads around because it doesn't fit within the way they view the universe.

I don't really think DAoT humanity should automatically be put above the Eldar. To my knowledge the only assumption for that is because a few BL library books say that DAoT humanity had access to this or access to that.

It is less about tech and more about infrastructure.

I can agree to them wanting to have differences because different factions and whatnot, but what the SM has in their book dwarfs what chaos has by an insane amount.
>Customization is not necessarily good, the more options you have the less likely they are to be either balanced as a whole or even good.

People like to talk about how the old CSM codex gave you a lot of options, they don't say how many of them were actually viable and how many were useless.
I dont entirely disagree here. Honestly in my opinion i think most other factions could definitely use some more upgrades that show how varied and individual that faction is. eg. Orks, Tyranids etc.
And yes lots of options isnt always a good thing but I think it should at least be a chaos gimmick. I mean space marines are so much more varied than Chaos which doesn't make sense, you have like 5 flavors of SM and then you have all the chapter tactics. And then every chapter has its own chapter master, and while i can understand Alpha Legion not using their Chapter master in a fight Iron Warriors cant, which is stupid.

My biggest problem with the lack of options is that not only do chaos lack things they probably should have, but it kills what makes chaos cool, fun and unique. They don't want them to be SM+ so they made them SM-

Cause the CSM fluff and rules can't decide whether they want to be about legions or warbands.

I'm not sure how SM being varied doesn't make sense. Even some who are descended from the UM and follow the Codex Astartes have things that they inherit from the culture they recruit from and such. It's how you make Chapters more than just a color scheme.

I kind of think GW has made it clear that 40k CSM are about warbands and that a decent number of them do not originate from the Traitor Legions. It's kind of hard to to just replace the Chapter Tactics from the SM when you have warbands like the Red Corsairs and Crimson Slaughter who are descended from Loyalist Chapters.

Im not saying it doesn't make sense within their own context, its just the magnitude that loyalist have so so much more variation than chaos is a bit weird.

>I kind of think GW has made it clear that 40k CSM are about warbands
Then why don't they have "modern" gear?

>GW has made it clear that 40k CSM are about warbands
Not him, but if this is the case, I'd love to see more than just VotLW for any Marines who lasted from the Legion days. They can't all be daemons/warp entities by now, and being represented by more than Chosen, if that, would be nice.

>loyalists deal more wounds via sternguard
>chaos gets more...BS? Wounds? Armor save?

Admittedly, this will never happen because berzerkers/plague marines/1k sons/noise marines exist, but I could dig a ten man of BS 5 marines. Berzerkers give WS5, but no one has the BS 5.

I'm going with
-Necrons
-Pre fall Eldar
-DAoT humans
-big
-gap
-Achaeotech and Eldar relics
-Eldar
-Stuff the Tech Prests can keep working
-Tau
-Stuff the Imperium can understand
-Stuff Chaos can keep working in large numbers

Both Orks and Jokaeros are not on the list as they don't have the same relationship with technology that other races do.

This is the best and most accurate ranking imo. Necrons have lost very little from their hibernation; mostly just tomb worlds that got blown up or infected with the flayer virus.

When you look at shit they have (world engines, aeonic orbs, etc), you have to remember that they fought a galaxy-spanning war with these weapons, and the only thing stopping them from using them widely is that most Necrons haven't woken up yet.

Thanks, I read the others first so I can't claim I would be able to come out with it on demand but I think I've gotten it right. Also the 3 entrys below big gap are so wide I make no claims that I could defend it is someone wants to go into detail about what belongs in each category.

Back in glorious 3rd-ed, they had CHAOS Armour, which was just artificier but with more backstory flexibility.

They're more popular, simple as that.

Because there are warbands from Traitor Legions too.

People have this idea that the Traitor Legions still functions as Legions, the majority don't. Only the Black Legion and Word Bearers seemingly do while the other Legions have all fractured.

Maybe this will change in 8th Edition, but it's currently not the case.

scared to piss slaves make poor maintenance staff

all of the tech people have gone full retard and just slap shit together on a whim instead of worrying about efficiency

and finally, daemons kill off true innovation because they're deeply afraid of being supplanted by technology

Arkhan Land is pre-heresy.

Chaos doesn't get antigrav because they don't have the resources of the Imperium to maintain it. (setting reason)

Chaos doesn't get land speeders because they have daemonic allies to fill that niche (game reason)

Separating chaos daemons into their own book was a mistake.