Pathfinder General /pfg/

Slayer is probably what you want to go for because of the attack bonus, although since you're using a firearm you might be fine going straight Rogue for the higher amount of sneak attack damage. Just remember that you have to be within 30 feet of a target to make a ranged sneak attack, be using the Sniper archetype for Slayer or Rogue, or have Sniper Goggles (which you can say are Hammerlock's glasses).

Convince your GM to allow Path of War.

Can we go back to the pregnant waifus instead?

Steel Hound Investigator using Vital Strike and a Double Hakbut may be an idea. It'll give you a lot of damage on single shots (to take down big animals with a bang).

Stop.

GM very much hates PoW, so no.
Oh shit Steel Hound is a thing I forgot about that

Alright lads, I need to know if throwing six level 7 Initiators at the party would be a bad idea.

There's four of them and they're level 12, however only one was smart enough to take Warder as their class.

Putting initiators against a party is almost always a bad idea. Initiators who aren't retarded are too efficiently deadly. They'll kill party members. You can't hold how you build them to the same standards as PCs are built.

Depends on how well optimized your party is, and what strikes your initiators have.

Be prepared for a lot of tears from your players

We are using the commonplace gun rules, by the way

I warned them that messing with a foreign kingdom's investigation of a missing person would have consequences, especially if those investigating were the handpicked knights of the heir apparent himself.

...I think I'm good.

Are you building them like they're a dedicated strike force/investigation team?

Build them with teamwork feats like they actually train and work together, and make sure they cover for each other's weaknesses. Make them a team, and show the party how much actual team work fucks them over.

That's my magical realm, so I can't say no
But Op pictures probably should be a bit more pathfinder related, and the only pregnancies on golarion are that lamashtu bullshit.

>Are you building them like they're a dedicated strike force/investigation team?

They're essentially the Royal Guard, they're never found without a partner and tend towards watching the other's back.

So yes, I'll absolutely be looking into teamwork feats to make these guys as vicious as possible. The Lumenaires (the name of the rank) should have Elemental Flux too, but I think that might be a bit too harsh on these guys.

There are six initiating classes. Make them one of each.

You're not supposed to, balancewise. It's warned about in the books, too. You give critters a strike or two, often one counter to go with it.

But full initiators are literally killing machines. It's what they do.

Be very careful, as if they're competently built and decide to focus-fire, here's how it will most likely go:
>TPK Ambush
>Else: Party wins init, kills two. Remaining 4 kill 1-2 partymembers. Remaining partymembers finish off enemies.

See, this has always been a problem for me when people argue that initiators are combat balanced. The books literally say "Yeah, they are far too good at killing to have them anywhere near a PC".

>Teamwork feats
>As vicious as possible
PICK ONE.
Because teamwork feats are a fucking waste of space for the most part unless auto-granted to the rest of the team by a single character (vizier at worst, tactician at best). They're not worth it if everyone has to buy the fucking things themselves at all.

Nothing wrong with pregnant Lamashtu waifus :^)

Nah there are 2 teamwork feats that are 100% worth it.

Warlord can share teamwork feats.

Best thing to do would be to take a base class, and give them a few iterations of Martial Training; throwing full initiators can be REALLY bad if you don't know precisely how strong your group is.

The level gap you have should be enough to make things fair, though. I've rebuilt a few of the Reign of Winter NPCs as initiators, but I know exactly what I can expect from my party. I replaced the Winter Guard Falconers with 4th level Ravenlord Harbingers, and the party had a very "back to the wall" fight, but they won.

They likely won't "Kill" Kill the party, just drop them. Which is fine; you can get back up from being dropped.

One of the best kinds of waifu.

Outflank and Golden Lion Commander's Stance is fucking brutal.

Hello everyone, Bartitsu user here. I decided to actually write an archetype that uses Bartitsu. It is an initiating archetype of the Investigator.

Cane Fighting reference:
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canne_de_combat
Bartitsu reference:
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

The major themes are drawn from the following three principles:
>To disturb the equilibrium of your assailant.

>To surprise him before he has time to regain his balance and use his strength.

>If necessary, to subject the joints of any parts of his body, whether neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist, back, knee, ankle, etc. to strains that they are anatomically and mechanically unable to resist.

Indeed the archetype focuses on three ranges. That of striking range using cane fighting, grappling range using a combination of jujitsu and european wrestling, and savate/boxing for ranges that fall between the two.

The major themes are that of the gentleman's defense, and the gentleman's fighting style. Some of the major changes to the Investigator class is the removal of Alchemy first and foremost for initiating. The second is Poison and associated abilities due to being unbecoming of a Bartitsu practitioner. As well I am going to add new Investigator talents fit for the archetypes themes. Inspiration will be tied to the recovery mechanic, spending inspiration being necessary to recover maneuvers.

What would you all want to see out of such an archetype?

>Initiating

Dropped.

It's almost like PCs and NPCs have different narrative roles.

You wouldn't put an optimized RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian against your PCs either or a caster spamming no-save, just-die stuff. Why is this suddenly okay?

I'm gonna do it.

One will be on his way back to the kingdom to report what's happening there, and the remaining five will be a Warlord (Golden Lion) and four Zweihander Sentinels, two of them specializing in Piercing Thunder/Primal Fury and the other two with Scarlet Throne/Iron Tortoise.

I warned them Initiators will be in the campaign, and now they're getting it.

If they survive this they'll hopefully be ready for the Wild Hunt, which are *advanced* initiators that are at least 11th level.

It fits the themes of a gentlemanly martial artist.

Because PC and NPC should be built with the same principles when they fill similar roles and at similar power. Anything else is narrative inconsistency and a failing of the system.

Why even investigator then? Why not just make a discipline?

Because investigator fits the rest of the themes I n their mechanics. Only the alchemy doesn't.

Fits how? Studied combat? Inspiration?

Both, yes. Studied combat, studied strike, and inspiration for the themes well. As well as the scholarly dilettante.

> RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian against your PCs either or a caster spamming no-save, just-die stuff.
I wouldn't use like I wouldn't have my party face a troll using primal fury punching +broken blade. There are certain tactics that you shouldn't try with NPC initiators but the concept isn't terrible in and of itself.

Hey, /pfg/! What is your favorite alternate racial trait (whether in terms of mechanical viability or flavor)?

The system is already broken, user. The game is flat out not designed to have monsters and PCs be built along the same lines, it falls apart really fast if you do.

Only if players never expect to die.

>There are certain tactics that you shouldn't try with NPC initiators but the concept isn't terrible in and of itself.

This is what I'm going to do with the Lumenaires; I'm not going to make the fight easy for them, but I'm certainly not going to break out the killing blows first round.

If you're looking at it as a simulation of the world yes. The fact is that it's a game, and the PCs by necessity have some plot armor and different capabilities.

If an NPC dies too quickly, it means the game moves on to the next scene.
If a PC dies too quickly, it means the player spends the rest of the session, and possibly more sessions /not playing/, along with losing anything they were invested in with their character and probably feeling pretty shit because of the unfair death. Deaths should matter.

An NPC in a combat is expected to live through maybe five rounds max.
A PC is expected to live for multiple sessions and levels.

Thus, NPCs don't get as much fleshing out or abilities (or need them) mechanically, while PCs get build level-by-level and ideally have lots of unique and useful things to do.

It's not a failing of the system unless you consider "requires you to remember there are other people at the table and the goal is for everyone to be having fun" a failing.

This fluffy posting has gone out of hand please do not associate such a great thing with pathfinder.

I prefer simulationist games. Pathfinder is not one but the only game in town so I can't make much choice.

Nnno? The game flat-out doesn't work if enemies and PCs are built the same way. That's why NPCs have a worse statline than any PC should have, it's why monsters are not nearly as lethal as a PC of the same CR would be. It's expected that a CR-appropriate fight should be decently (75% victory) in the PC's favor, not a coin-flip.

The bigger problem is that the numbers just don't scale properly for PCs and NPCs. PCs are comparatively squishy as fuck but do way more damage, monsters do a lot less damage but are tanky.

Which isn't that big of a deal since it works out in practice, except that they're supposed to be built from the same baseline and they really aren't. Trying to use PC-built opponents is going to be a bloodbath, even more rocket tag than pathfinder already is.

The main question to using Initiating on an Investigator is that the Polymath already exists, so you'll want to keep that very much in-mind when designing the archetype.

I am sorry to hear that. I recommend starting a group with some like-minded friends. Personally, I prefer crunchy games with a narrative bent. Like 4e, actually.

Polymath? I wasn't aware they was already an initiating investigator. Can you link it?

Who are you?

Does it matter? He's a tripfag and /pfg/ has been without our tripfags for days. DAYS.

I nominate Crix for Tertiary Princess.

That might be difficult, considering the remarkable number of fluffy player options provided by 1pp content alone.

It's a class template for both the Alchemist and Investigator, in Path of War Expanded.

>literal tripfag worship
I hope you're fucking around

can you not

Yes. I don't really see the big deal with tripfags but I felt it'd be amusing.

Let the tripfags live in peace.

Fuck off and die, tripfag

Polymath is probably your best bet. Probably rejigger the granted disciplines to include Scarlet Throne, maybe Golden Lion. You can find Path of War: Expanded in the pastebin in the OP, or just google for Path of War Polymath

Christ polymath is strong.

That's straight up false. You can argue that it fails to meet its design goals, but NPCs use the same classes, feats, spells, equipment, etc that PCs use and fall into the CR system based on level in the exact same way.

Polymath and Warpath are some of my favorite initiator archetypes since they're roughly the same strength as the base classes if you optimized them well, but have more interesting things to do than full attack with some buffs.

>etc that PCs use and fall into the CR system based on level in the exact same way.

user. Tell me the CR of an optimized wizard 10.

Now tell me the CR of an unoptimized monk 10.

They are the same, in the system.

Polymath is a good deal stronger than base investigator/alchemist, like god damn.

Let's also not forget that the average NPC is supposed to be partly NPC classes, losing an additional CR (so -2) only if they're almost entirely made of it.

HELL of a difference between "WIZARD 10" and "Fighter 4 Warrior 5 Expert 1"

What are you talking about. They're exactly the same, the CR system says so :^)

My point.

>the average NPC is supposed to be partly NPC classes
Well that's certainly not the case for the vast majority of NPCs you actually encounter past level 2

Actually, they are not the same in the system.

The wizard falls under the monster category "spellcaster" while the monk falls under the monster category "skilled". As a result, each one would also be best used agaisnt different encounter types. Also, whether or not they have NPCV gear (+1 CR) or PC gear (+2 CR makes a difference as well.

The monster categories are in the back of the books and change the setup of how an encounter goes quite drastically when used properly.

Doesn't Abrogail herself have two levels of Aristocrat?

>liking a tripfag just for being a tripfag

Is this the avatar of Summer?

See

True. Her class levels were revealed quite a while ago before they actually statted her though.

>I say "You can argue that it fails to meet its design goals"
>You say that it fails to meet its design goals
Okay? And?

Are there rules for combined or aided casting? Especially Psionics. Like how in Avatar a bunch of coordinated Earthbenders can move more than the sum of their parts.

Witches can do it with the Coven Hex.

Spheres can do it with Circle Casting.

I see. I thought you were arguing that the system functioned and wasn't shit, rather than agreeing that the system is fundamentally broken and that you can't rely on CR ever.

Anybody have a decent level 12 build for the beguiler's scarred mourner archetype?

Any tricks to convince yourself of your own lies in this game? As in, I want to establish a character legend and make it seem like my character has been mind whammied and implanted with a trigger that switches her over from "Ordinary Chef" to "Vampire Hunter".

Wait, I can just dip vigilante, can't I?

That, or see if you can nab the Masked Identity feats from N Jolly's vigilante book. Theyre good.

Look up the Metaconcert psionic power. I'm sure there's more but that is pretty much the epitome of "psions working together".

>GM very much hates PoW

Why?

Not him, but I GM I had was against it on the basis that Casters were too powerful, so he preferred to lower everything to Martials' level rather than add power creep.

Thanks guys, metaconcert should work perfectly.

Good man.

It doesn't matter who they are. What matters is their tail.

No one cared who they were until they put on the fluffy.

The Elemental Conmixture Teamwork feat should work, but it's a bit shit.

www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats/elemental-commixture-teamwork

>roughly the same strength

Rubato is a downgrade from regular bard.

Polymath and Warpath Follower are strict upgrades.

Gareth hates bards.

Because PoW classes are imbalanced, especially at low levels. They are almost impossible to build weak. If you play a tier 1 wizard, you can gimp yourself and still not overshadow. If you play "tier 3" initiator, even if you specifically try to build it wrong, you rolling too much d6s at low levels and can spam overpowered maneuvers at high level.

Only because Path of War 1 has shit balance.

>PoW is overbalanced
>Thats just because PoW has shit balance

Wat.

Broken Blade.
Primal Fury.
Black Seraph.