Warmachine and Hordes General

The bane thrall nerf is p irrelevant imo, i was only taking them with lich2 in a min unit with no ua before (i didnt play goreshade2). They really werent as ubiquitous as people think.

Now bane knights on the otherhand, may have gotten a sidegrade. Now they can vengance behind their target for a mat bonus, and technically do the same amount of damage on the charge. They are also less suceptable to dice spikes, wich goes both ways.

This so much. Gaspy2 is probably my most played caster, i fucking loved him. I would have actually still played him just as much in mkiii if they left his feat unchanged (and also kept him at speed6). I would take feat over cloudwall anyday.

I would settle for d3+6 guys returned, but would want the cloudwall back.

I actually think they could have just left him unchanged and he would have dropped in popularity but still been very strong. The thing, besides lack of feat, that kills him are 1 inability to charge friendly models 2 changes to burrow. Excarnate is a distant 3rd.

Excarnate also got stealth nerfed with the Bile Thrall change, so it got double-teamed with nerfbats.

Do you have any idea of what kind of cryx casters you like? With most a good foundation can be built with bane knights, blood witches+ua, or nyss hunters.

You really want wrong eye and snapjaw (goes for circle as well).

For solos you need Daragh Wraith. You will want 2 warwitch sirens, ragman, saxon orrik, a scarlock thrall, the withershadow combine and bane lord tartarus (he goes with banes and agathea).

You might want a satyxis raider captian, goreman de wulf, madelyn corbeau, Aiakos, Cephalix Overlords, satyxis raiders + ua.

For jacks hold off on Deathjack- his resculpt is in the pipes. Wait for the inflictor kit to come out next month. Maybe snatch up a harrower or 2.

It was a pretty overt nerf, not stealth at all.

I dont rank it very high because the trick is resource heavy and takes up a lot of time. You also don't always get to use it. Don't get me wrong, its hilarious and the most fun thing about him- but its not the best thing he could do.

>werent as ubiquitous as people think

11.5'' threat
Tough w/ auto up during upkeep
stealth
arm 15
effective mat 8
effective p+s 13
weapon masters

all for 15pts

13 attacks for the unit and UA and a thresher solo that reanimates

19 pts, you included Darragh un that math.

11.5'' threat - only vs 1 model\unit. If Tartarus wasn't killed and was able to curse it. And Darragh used his Ride.
Mat 8 - as with threat - only vs one model\unit if Tartarus alive and cursed it
Arm 15 - only good vs blast damage

They wasn't bad per se. They wasn't best Cryx unit either. Not in faction with both satyxis and two other bane units.

Menoth - we lost a major strength within the Choir, but somehow got better. Vindictus and Severius 2 became A grade casters, if not more. We don't have medium based heavy infantry anymore and the Zealots were gutted and our ability to say "NO" was mitigated to a point. But hey, we got gender equality now in the Knights Exemplar.

But to answer the question, just get Daughters or TFG as a jamming unit, the jacks you like and sprinkle in some solos, while enjoying the fact the Sunburst crew is actually useful.

its actually calculated without darragh, i just fucked up on basic math, id say 10.5" so we wouldn't have to take a solo that doesn't add that much.

but with stealth you really only have to worry about blasts, which is why 15 is perfect.

tartarus dying also shouldn't be too much of an issue with an armor 17 stealth dude with 8 boxes.

all of this allows you to make the alpha strike first and end up ahead in points.

Mk3 made me pick up Cryx.

Also you can no longer Spell Slave/Necromancy it, which I think is a bit much.

Me too, they look fun. But if I'm paying money to enter an event where I need to win to get prizes, I'm sure as shit bringing my Mercs instead.

Only exception is Champions, because Lich1/Denny1/Skarre1 is one fuck of an ADR lineup, and Agathia might be a clutch meta pick because her feat is like a shitty Coven feat with Ghost Walk stapled on, and even a shitty coven feat can buttfuck a non-Sloan gunline.

I love how powerful Abby 1 & 2 became for legion. They were always my favorite casters.

I don't really have any intention on winning prizes. But if I want to win I'll bring my Cygnar. If I want to have fun I'll bring Cryx. And if I go 80 hours without sleep and inject pure crazy serum into my veins I'll bring my Skorne.

What's good to bring with Sturgis?

Lube and tissues.

A different caster.

Sorry.

As a new player (2 weeks) who has Khador (Both starter boxes, a spriggan and some MoWs), what makes this Winter Guard build so exceptional?

I keep hearing how good it is, but I don't understand why. What role do they fill?

Riflecorps +3 rockets +joe?

They hit very accurately (5+3D6). The normal rifles can combine and the rockets just have brutal built in. Their range is amazing. They are very buffable, for example with Hand of Fate or Signs and Portents.

Their role is simply killign shit. And they are extremely good at doing it.

>Most playable melee infantry
SP6
RNG2
Charge threat range = 11"

>Most playable gunline ranges
12"

This is fucking dumb. Not only do gunlines get the first shot off, but they also get another to mop up what's left.

They're absurdly fucking good at killing things. There isn't anything deep or complex to it, Joe gives them boosted to-hit rolls and they blow the enemy away.

Run to engage. Engage range in your example = 6*2+2 = 14"

>Run to engage the Dawnguard Invictus
>Oh by the way they're MAT7
>Die to their melee attacks

You can't really tie up something that's powerful in melee.

Hell the reality of Invictus is even worse than this. They have a mini feat that lets them shoot 16", have SPD5, and assault. They can get the first shot off starting at 24" away, and ending 16" away. Even if you run in my example you won't tie them up. Dawnguards are the new Banes.

>Dawnguards are the new Banes.
Banes never had guns. War has changed.

The reality is even WORSE than all of this. Assuming everything is in a flat line for simplicity's sake:

>Invictus shoots your Nihilators from 16" away
>Nihilators run 12"
>Invictus walk forward so they're 2.5" away and shoot again
>Nihilators can't charge at this range
>Invictus have 17ARM so the Nihilators need to roll a 6 on damage to kill

Assuming you don't just want the aim bonus. But then again, the ball is always in the court of the Invictus. If their list has any kind of ARM buff to throw on the Invictus, it's a completely one sided fight versus Skorne's best small based infantry.

> Banes never had guns
They're changed faction and evolved.

I can't really see myself playing anything other than Mak3 into Ret. Problem is that Vyros murders her to death.

I'd want to play Makeda1 into them. Quicken puts you up to SPD8 and DEF15, which is very relevant. They need to CRA to reliably hit, so if your entire unit comes forward in a line they can't not get slapped by something. If I make sure to stay 25" away before going in, they only get one shot, one opportunity. And if I brought a Tyrant Commander any that make their tough roll can stand up and charge up. Invictus and UA is 20pt, Nihilators and a Tyrant is 21.

I'd even consider Naaresh because of the +3DEF from Blur and his upkeep hate. And hell if anyone can get close to a ranged unit, it's that cunt. Tyrant puts Press Forward on him, charge 9", Cyclone another 8".

No matter how playable their infantry actually are the infantrymachine is dead. It's jackmachine now. Unless some bane themes show up, banespam is dead.

Melee hit way harder though and doesn't need to deal with clouds and stealth.

Anyone got a copy of Into the Storm? Or the Rights of Passage? Or that flashpoint book? I just finished Wrath of the dragonfather and blood of kings, and wanna keep riding the fluff train.

I forgot the last line of that banana meme, but just pretend I typed it out anyway.

I do have one of those

What's so bad about Sturgis2?

He's an off brand Cryx caster IN Cryx.

Also, Amon is a beast now. Idrians are great. All of our heavy jacks are playable, and most of them are good.

Basically, Choir lost the hit bonus on Hymn of Battle, Harby, Bastions, and Vassals got nerfed. Everything else stayed the same and a lot of stuff got better. We lost some jack support, but due to Power Up we now run jacks better, and are only second to CoC in terms of running jacks in a jack-heavy edition.

It's a good time to be Menoth.

The same as with Sturgis1. They are worse versions of other casters in the same faction. They are both perfectly playable, but there is no reason (gameplaywise) to ever ply them.

What makes irdians good in mk3 all I see is a poor mans rifle corp.

>Sturgis has Dark Shroud and can Teleport
>Sturgis has 7 MAT
>Sturgis can get two attacks for 1 focus
>Sturgis can make units have Stealth

I don't see what can top this

Only the fourth of those points is actually worth something.

""Balancing""

3 years of MSPaint

Sturgis also hits himself in the face every turn if you're not careful

A lot of units look terrible if you compare them to one of the top3 units in the game.

>Different casters
>Different games
>Different factions
>Skorne

What did you expect user? Literally no one is surprised by Skorne being shite

infantry machine will be back once people remember that WM infantry shred jacks and light infantry shred WM infantry. just watch.

i also think PP recognized Fury > Focus in mk2 and swung too far the other way in trying to balance that, instead of just accepting that there can never be real balance when the systems work so different.

and they still think having animi justifies bad lock spell lists, after gutting most animi

shrug

I have a local who switched into Cryx in Mk2 because they weren't good enough to win with their older faction. They gleefully picked up Cryx and proceeded to noobstomp anyone they could.

Now that Mk3 is out they refuse to play since they can't hack it anymore. The best part is they sold all of their Khador to switch to Cryx

The tears are glorious

>Different casters
Yeah comparing a cster to himself is kind of pointless right?
>>Different games
Now come on.
>>Different factions
Well yes. That's true. But despite what the PPIDF might have told you, comparing between factions is totally valid. Skorne having worse casters would be fine if they had better beasts or better units or better support. But they don't.
>>Skorne
Precisely my point.

>What did you expect user? Literally no one is surprised by Skorne being shite
I'm not going to lie, when Mk3 was announced I expected Skorne to be okay. Skorne would have been so easy to transfer to Mk3. They would have to do almost nothing. Yet they fucked up doing nothing. Yes, that is how hard they fucked up. Doing nothing (but doubling points costs I guess) would have been the far better. Yet they were too fucking stupid for that. Yes, I mad.

>and they still think having animi justifies bad lock spell lists, after gutting most animi
This is my worst problem with their design currently. They just don't give all warlocks complete spell lists. Look at Rasheth. He's well-rounded heh and can actually do what he is intended to do. And then you look at stuff like Morg2 and start to seriously question how these designers manage to breathe.

>i also think PP recognized Fury > Focus in mk2 and swung too far the other way in trying to balance that
Somewhat. It seems more like they started reworking Warmachine and did a reasonably good job at it. Then they had a look at the calendar and went "Oh shit, release is in 2 weeks and we still haven't started on Hordes. Let's just wing it."

Vindictus became great? Huh? Mind showing a list and battleplan? Because i sorta like the guy but i literally cannot see how to use him.

I know about six dudes exactly like this.

Feels so good to be Ret. They look at me like I've personally attacked them by no longer being at a huge disadvantage against them.

Been playing a ton of Malekus recently and holy crap is he awesome. List I've been running is attached. Have had no problems with Caine2, Durgen, Helleyne, or Denny1 so far. Just need the Revelator to officially release.

Which brings me to my problem. Who is a good pair for Malekus? I'm still pretty new to Protectorate and I'm kind of stumped.

Yes, they were slow, expensive and needed support.

Compare knights, cheaper and more mobile and witches with gang and incorp delivery.

Thralls I think were a problem at lower levels of play, but not so much at the tournament level

The problem with Thralls was that they were an amazing second line unit to contrast with knights.

Like, Raiders gave you an amazing jamming unit, Knights gave you a superb alpha unit, and Thralls could close a game.

I'm going to try and look on the bright side of the Cyclops Raider.

>16" range
>Boostable hit and damage
>Can see over small infantry so has less LOS issues
>Seems like a solid solo sniper or repeatable annoyance to heavies and lights
>NINE
>FUCKING
>POINTS

Ok I tried. Like, if it could pick where its damage went or something. Cyclops are supposed to be able to see into the future, but the Raider and Shaman have nothing to reflect that.

He only gets dark shroud after he hits with both initials.

The only interesting spell he has is conviction since hes most likely going to occultate himself. I would rather just play gaspy1.

Yeah but when are you taking all 3 in the same list?

For me in mkii there were only 2 casters I reached for them first- Terminus, Scaverous. I had to bring them with lich2 to deliver dork shroud.
Goreshade2 was the other big thrall caster, but I never played him
I mean they were a 20+ point unit when you factor in blt dw and saxon.

I've been scouting around trying to find some reviews of the battle boxes, since I'm thinking of picking up a couple but there isn't much useful information. Could someone summarize the battle boxes (especially the new warlocks) or point me in the direction of somewhere to look for a review of how they play?

in mk2, maybe gaspy3 as well

now, can't think of any reason to really take thralls

Did we ever find out what happened with Goreshade's Eldritch army in Ios? Or what happened with CarverXBarnabas otp?

Is the complaint here the cost? 9 points is cheap for a light beast in mk3

you forgot that they also have assault, so after the nihlators run, they can assualt and shoot guys and then melee any that somehow survived the second volley.

I made a venethrax with min thralls and 5 desecrators. It was amusing

>9 points is cheap for a light beast in mk3
Meanwhile Khador gets an insanely powerful heavy for 12.

uh, no? Gorax Rager and Wild Argus are both 7.

bullsnappers are 5pts

The scariest part about Bullsnappers is that with Rask and a Rassler, it's 5 points for PS18+3d6, and 2x PS18+2d6. You just point them at heavies and watch the aspects melt away.

Aurora 1) Aurora, Numen of Aerogenesis [+29]
- Inverter [15]
- Inverter [15]
- Corollary [6]
- Diffuser [6]
Clockwork Angels [5]
Eradicators (max) [15]
- Transverse Enumerator [3]
Optifex Directive [4]
Steelsoul Protector [4]
Steelsoul Protector [4]
Steelsoul Protector [4]
Transfinite Emergence Projector [19]
- Permutation Servitors
Attunement Servitors [4]

ADR
Inverter 15
Mitigator 7
Accretion Servitors 2
Obstructors 11
Clockwork Angels 5

Pairing this with my mother gunline list, as something fast enough to not lose on The Pit and capable of clearing a zone every turn, with some added benefit against warjack spam(not that mother doesn't already destroy it).

Been a long time since I played. I used to have trouble cracking khador heavy armor backed by karchev. Cygnet get any buffs this edition besides pretty measure?

Cygnar*

So I'm looking into this game and was just wondering what a good starting army would be. Not model wise, but faction wise. I've been looking at the Convergence a lot because they look the coolest.

Pre measure. Godamn I hate spellcheck.

Here ya go, I really liked getting a glimpse into the story of each Journeyman caster.

basiclly, not skorne.

all the other factions are really close to each other in power.

What makes Khador so good?

They have really effective shooting, good damage output, and high armor.

Are they still the infantry faction or can I run more warjacks now?

You can do whatever you want. Khador is a magical dreamland where you do everything better than any other faction.

Might have to pick up some khador stuff then. They always had the best looking jacks IMO, but I always heard they weren't that good.

they have a handful of casters that can support jack heavy lists, karchev, butcher 1, and hark

I didn't say it was good, just cheap for Mk3 hordes

It's actually really bad. Oh God why am I playing a Hordes faction?

Right those are in the low end of the bell curve. 9 is below average for most factions and cheap for Skorne.

Man, Magnus really is the biggest patriot there is.

Stryker has nothing on him. Strykers a glorified errand boy in comparison.

>7 points
Drake
Krea
Razor Wurm
Agonizer

>8 points
Savage
Brute
Shaman

>9 points
Raider

That's all Skorne lights.

Know what fug uploading individually. Here's a rar of all the Skull Island stuff I have + The Haley Story.
www79.zippyshare.com/v/C1lDDldr/file.html

They have solid baseline troops and jacks and can make them shine via some of the best support in the game (mostly caster-based).

I think cryx and minions are top tier, where legion and CoC are mid tier.