What is the best part of warhammer fantasy lore and why is it Ogres?

Wow rude

I don't really like the Orges because they're kind of treated like 40k Orks - they have a bunch of funny goblin minders that they treat cruely but hilarious things sometimes happen, they follow vague gods that give them special powers, and they function more like warlike tribes than any actual civilization. It feels to me like someone was handed some of their mercenaries to look at and told to figure out where the hell they came from and make an army out of them, and the only thing they could take from it was 'warlike and fat.'

I could see why someone would like them, but I'd much rather focus on one of the human or dwarf factions, or either of the undead ones. Orges are probably my least favorite part of WFB, and I think they could've been replaced with Chaos Dwarves or something.

My favorite part of warhammer fantasy is that they took the already fucking metal tolkien elves and cranked them up to eleven.

Although I feel the best is the undead, both TK and vamp, I have to argue in favor of Ogres.

Consider this: Ogre Maneaters, and the Imperial citizen Ogres in Ostland. A faction with so much variety, they can be found literally everywhere in any theme, blending into any culture.

Furthermore, there's already far too much Chaos. Remove Beastmen if anything.

One of my favourite bits

Or de-chaosify them somewhat. Make them playable as Taalite/Ulrican beastfolk OR Chaos mutants.

But they had all that before someone tried to slap a more unique culture on them as part of their own faction and rules.

The main reason I brought up Chaos Dwarves is because they've kept up a small fanbase for years that never got much. I would've been perfectly happy with Tileans or Estalians, maybe a proper Albion army instead of just mercenaries for an old celtic theme, or made some sort of remnant of a past civilization, like Mourkain or the Sky Titans that giants used to be.

>not lizardmen

Get the fuck out.

Sky Giants and Albion are already basically a variation on Ogres.

May as well expand the Ogre army to include them.

Chaos Dwarfs should have an expansion, but are already eatablished.

I get your point, but compared to Beastmen the Ogres are pretty unique to Warhammer.

Are the Saurus too thick to into diplomacy, or just pathologically incapable of caring about anything other than tactics or efficiently driving an obsidian spike through somebody's skull?

>Sky Giants and Albion are already basically a variation on Ogres

Is everything just ogres now? That's a weird thing to say, since there are definitely a lot of non-ogre things. I would hate for an expansion of the Ogre army of that sort, especially since Albion is supposed to be it's own unique place with humans acting as elves.

And just because they're unique, doesn't necessarily make them good or likeable. A lot of people like most of the factions in WFB because they're obviously based on real cultures or fictional creatures and fantasy ideas.

is this what warhammer has come to??

>Fat mongolians
The ogres struck such a chord with me that I literally cannot make "bestial giants" (giantkin, orcs, ogres, anything vaguely resembling WH ogres) in my settings anything else but fat mongolians. It's just too awesome to give up.
>Remove Beastmen
Does not compute.
>De-chaosify them
The fun thing about WHFB setting is/was that Chaos or the warp weren't nearly as much "necessary evil but god damnit is it bad" as it is in 40k. Several of the "gods of order" to which the human nations pray are technically warp entities that are benevolent.

The warp in general was an 80's metal version of the otherworld or the ghost realm where evil shit waits to fuck you but not everything is out to get you.

So Beastmen being born of chaos didn't technically need to mean that they were daemon sympathisers or fleshy daemonspawns, themselves.

I do agree though that Beastmen could deserve a lot more fleshing out in the form of evening out their hateboner for civilisation and their mindless anger. The only thing that must always be preserved in them is that they must be the brutal side of nature. Wood Elves are pretty metal but they're still the nice and easy side of nature that we eat all to often in fantasy.

Beastmen are nothing of that. They are pure, unadultered brutality of survival. They don't have a pretty pact with nature spirits to help protect their villages or misguide trespassers in the woods so they don't reach their secluded communities. They live in the deep end of the woods where even shittier monsters live and they have to wrestle each day from fate's grasp, caught between a paranoid imperium and territorial wood elves who want them all dead and living life at the edge of possibility. Play up their underdog role in more satisfying ways than "literally forgotten by the very powers that made them".

>gods of order
>benevolent

Beastmen are literally just Games Workshop stealing Broo from Glorantha.

They didn't make them unique in any way, they just stole the idea then proceeded to shit on it. They even stole the look.

There's no reason to have them.

Please explain mroe about the Broo.

Because I seem to remember they were supposed to eb able to turn anything into more Broo or something otherwise crazy.

Also GW must have had it in their contract that they could re-use the molds for their own products, and so they did.

Didn't the ogres kill the sky giants? I remember one of the best parts in their codex was the description of them attacking the giants mountaintop kingdoms in massive battles.

Castles the size of entire cities where beings far larger than men are brought down by a ravenous horde of ogres who would then feast on everything in sight. Then they would tear the castle down in a series of strength contests.

Alluminas never wronged anyone.

Nah, Diplomacy is for the Skinks, Sarus are for war. Thats why Skinks are much smarter.

Broo are literally Beastmen, except that they reproduce by raping everything rather than just females because they were created to be rape made manifest by a goddess who was raped then told "you must have asked for it" by the god of justice.

Also, Broo are sometimes able to gain a good alignment whereas Beastmen only have good females, and the rare neutral Minotaurs.

Every single other thing is the same. Same models, which GW never bothered to change, same lore and behavior, even some of the Beastmen characters were stolen.

GW at least came up with unique things for Ogres.

Ogres destroyed most of the Sky Giant race. The only ones who survived either built castles on clouds and floated away, or were so ancient they became mountains. Teclis met the cloud ones once apparently, meaning they still exist.

whats that?

There is old White Dwarf issue that had a lot of insight about how they updated the ogres to 6th edition. IIRC There were lots of clever ideas and reasons for what ogres finally became, inspiration being mostly in Huns.

>because they were created to be rape made manifest by a goddess who was raped then told "you must have asked for it" by the god of justice
I'm not a SJW nor a guy that has a problem with rape as a fetish. But even I think this a bit too much.

It's fun in the "over-the-top horrifying" way warhammer can be fun.

Reading up on Broo.

I can already say: What a shit retarded name. "Beastmen" sounds like the second coming of a prosaic jesus in comparision.

Glorantha sounds like it's the main inspiration for neckbeards and Fa/tg/uys to go full on tryhard when trying to reinvent classical fantasy with unconventional races or giving conventional races unconventional spins.

Obvious choice

To be fair, its kinda SJW in a way as well
>Mother fuckers, you think rape is funny?
>Enjoy some living rape-cancer, dick heads

Its supposed to be dark as fuck. Like if you looked at modern India or Pakistan, and based your deities on that.

Because a minor goddess was raped by the god of justice's brother, he shrugged it off.
So she decided to make it something that can't be ignored, ever again. God of Justice, your prayer inbox is now just cases of rape and incest. But not just people, objects and ideas too. God of nature didn't speak up, so her rapemonsters rape dirt and plants. Poetry and art didn't speak up for her as a witness, now her monsters rape music and beauty itself.

I think the big problem I have is this part
>then told "you must have asked for it" by the god of justice
It almost sounds muslim Maybe the writers had some other pre-modern cultures in mind with this, but I can't think of any female deity that was raped.

It came out of the era where everyone did that.

Some, like Shadowrun, did it well. Some like Starjammer were just interesting, Glorantha was a bit too boring.

But hey, I would bet good money that it inspired Berserk. So there's that.

>Because a minor goddess was raped by the god of justice's brother, he shrugged it off.
Oh okay, I understand. It's still pretty dark, but before that I thought the god of justice raped her and said it was okay. This makes more sense.

>returntheslab.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology

Noob here, tell me about these lion lads.

>Castles the size of entire cities where beings far larger than men are brought down by a ravenous horde of ogres who would then feast on everything in sight

This reminds me of the opening prologues for Moorcock's Corum stories, which likened the Mabden's (human) encroachment and destruction of the Nadragh and Vadagh (basically elves) peoples to vultures feasting on the body of a disabled poet, and the greatest tragedy came from that the vultures couldn't even appreciate or comprehend the beauty they were forever destroying.

Its also less edgy when you consider that Broo treated with kindness become good and civilized. Breaking the cycle of molestation basically.

But nobody wants to treat Broo well because they're rape monsters that raid villages, look like animals, and shit on everything. Plus, you know, they can make men pregnant. Which is scary.
So people just kill them until the Broo fuck enough rocks and trees to have a horde to wipe out a civilization, and nobody learns anything because people are dumb panicky animals.

Like the Warhammer Fantasy thread argument about Grimdark/Noblebright. Both Glorantha and Warhammer Fantasy are dark, but in Warhammer Fantasy the ability for an average person to change the world is very low making it Neutraldark, while Glorantha can actually have change for the better making it Nobledark.

GAR

>Glorantha
King of Dragon Pass was great. Not particularly because of the lore though... Hmm what are some good stuff set in Glorantha?

A long time ago, Elves decided to have kings when previously there was just a queen and her husband. They elected a male amongst the high nobility (called Princes) to lead the armies of all the kingdoms. The king also fucks the queen for a year, so all her heirs are the daughters of queens rather than her kids with the man she actually marries.

After one of the kings died, the election was underway and a dude won. He thought he wouldn't win so he had fucked off to Chrace for a vacation, which is like Elf Canada (lumberjacks, mounties, trappers, and forest waterfall type landscapes) mixed with Elf Australia (everything alive is crazy dire, and trying to kill you). He got the message that he won and started to return to the capital when Dark Elf assassins attacked him. The local Chracian lumberjack Elves saved him and escorted him to the capital, and as thanks he made them a special police organization to protect kings like the US Secret Service, police the Elflands in general, and just kill monstery stuff and get paid for it.

They are called the White Lions of Chrace because magic lions that were mutated by Chaos (but are not evil) populate their region, and they have to keep the numbers low without wiping them out. So they wear White Lion pelts of their kills and use chariots pulled by White Lions. Plus carry HUGE FUCKING AXES.

They're basically Elf Doomguy mixed with like Dovahkiins.

White lions are the fucking best, nothing comes close.

Weird way to spell Skaven.

While a beautiful sentiment, I just really liked that they had a coming of age ritual where they had to headbutt through one of the giants' stone walls.

Guess I have something in common with those vultures too.

Well, no. Swordmasters are the FBI/CIA to the White Lion Secret Service. They also have similarly badass swords to the Lion axes.

Fuck Phoenix Guard though. Malekith's fucking cock polishers.

Thats one scraggly looking beastman.

>Glorantha
>Boring

Have you tried not being wrong?

Rune Quest - duh
Hero Quest - more narrative and less crunchy than Rune Quest
And there's many setting books, like The Book of Heortling Myths.

And of course the strategy board games Dragon Pass (originally White Bear Red Moon) and Nomad Gods.

Glorantha seems to have been tragically ignored as an IP to explore.

Also, the lore you get out of KODP is just snippets from one particular cultural perspective.

My favourite thing about Glorantha is that there isn't some universally acknowledged cosmic order or single "True creation myth" - everybody argues about who's myths are true, and sometimes even seemingly contradictory things can be true at once due to the setting's weird mythopoeic logic.

If there is one thing I don't regret about End Times, it was how awesome it made Settra. It wasn't the empire or the age of his ambitions that made him cool - it was his drive and will.

It's that sort of black humor that makes me love Warhammer's world so much.

I loved playing Ogres.
Honestly one of the funnest, and simplest, armies to play.

that's kindom death you idiot

Who's the most aesthetic army and why is it dwarfs?

Beastmen were woefully underdeveloped in WHFB.

What they should have been in the True Children of Chaos, born of a mindless, primitivism given agency to sow ruin, at war with the very world they existed in, the Heralds of Chaos whose raids that fray the edges of civilization leave a stain and stink in their wake, brutal guerilla warriors who inflict wounds with rusted and filth-encrusted weaponry that never heal right, aberrations on all natural form, essentially, the physical manifestation of Chaos in the world. They are a seething pagan horror forever teeming in the forest's edge, waiting to burst forth in a frenzy of clanging metal, throaty gurgles, foaming snorts and thudding hooves, to just melt back into the unnatural darkness.

The Warriors of Chaos can be the symbolic barbarians at the gates of Rome, but the Beastmen are little more than daemons in physical form whose wretched and terrible forms exist to be at odds with everything else around them.

Instead they were just sort of a shitwave to be stepped in, and then to be complained about because you slipped in the shit and banged your head.

I'll always love the Beastmen for potential.

My fellow Beastigor

Also,
>What they should have been in the True Children of Chaos
They are though. In one of the Beastmen Codexes it says something like "The Chaos Gods do not honor Beastmen with gifts because they are extensions of their will. The Chaos Gods desire the destruction of the Way Stones, thus it is the Beastmen's instinctual desire."

That would be Chaos Dwarfs, actually.

Not being super familiar with warhammer fantasy as whole, but form what I do know the lizards always seemed kinda tacked on and unneccesary, sort of like they fluffed out one of the generic asian cultures even though their geographical positioning makes them irrelevent to anything interesting in the metaplot - compare with the tomb kings who get dragged into the happenings in warhammer!Europe via their connection with the vamp lords in a way that made them a lot more palatable.

"lizardfolk were a big deal a long time ago"
Are they important or interact with any of the other factions in interesting ways now?
"No."
So why should I care about them?

Then you need to read up on Warhammer lore.

The lizards are the descendants of the Old Ones, creators of the gates at the top and bottom of the world and life in the Old World. They're sworn enemies of Chaos and the lizard lads carry on the war against Chaos.

Also
>asian

They're mesoamerican as fuck, there's no asian in their design at all.