Women in Bretonnia

post more fair lady knights

Maledict remains one of my top pratchett characters.

That could mean literally anything

Haven't read that one. Is it any good?

I think it was implied that there are a ridiculous amount of questing lady knights, and that pretty much everyone knew, but it was an unforgivable offence to actually be open about it. Sir Bors eats alone and never removes his helmet in company? He clearly made a vow, or else is too horribly scarred for polite company (presumably this also explains his high-pitched voice). Sir Bob's slim physique and youthful looks are merely because of his good luck, and is sure to be a hit with the ladies at court when he lets his hair grow out.

Now Sir Guy, he who is built like yon brick shitehouse, and once headbutted an ork to death? That guy I'm suspicious about. You see, I suspect he's actually of peasant stock!

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It's good but I don't think it was exactly what original user was referring to.

>What did they mean by this?

Veeky Forums please stop replying earnestly to /v/'s formulaic shitposting.

>Veeky Forums please stop replying earnestly to /v/'s formulaic shitposting.
We brought this on ourselves

Because some really really dumb (and noisy) people nowadays believe that anything which show up in a work of fiction is something the author endorse, even if the work of fiction depict such act or concept in a clearly negative light.

WE MUST CLEARLY BURN HIM LADIES!
I MEAN LADS.

It's not Pratchett's best work, but it's still a good read.

>What did they mean by this?
They knew you spend your free time scouring the Internet looking for inconsequential things to get upset about, so they included this text just to cause you butthurt.

It means that Bretonnia doesn't appreciate boobplate and the authors are sorry for that.

>using books

I now need this to be a thing. Thanks /tg!

Are there any women here?

It is a way of distancing themselves from the content of their FICTION.

Bretonnia is a seething hellhole, the authors know that. By writing about a seething hellhole they are not endorsing the status quo of that seething hellhole.

>Games Workshop et al are not sexists, and do not support sex based discrimination, even if it is in our game. It's just historical, in the same way that just because they're in our game, doesn't mean that we support any of these other bad things. Feel free to play your game any way you want, though.

NO! We can't just burn him on suspicion! That would be utterly dishonourable. And we certainly can't ask him, as that would be even worse!

This will require subtly and guile. Perhaps we should keep careful watch to see if he does anything like the, Does anyone know what peasants actually do all day? I'm fairly sure sheep are involved at some point.

Just look at his teeth, does he have most of them or 3 of them.

Hmmm... might work. We'll have to watch him closely.

Then again, I've seen my share of archers with a good set of gnashers, and my father had but three after an ork hit him the once. No doubt Bors has even fewer 'neath that imposing helm if his wounds are even worse than my noble father's.

Mayhap this will be trickier than I had thought.

Someone hide behind a bush and get some peasant to gift him a sheep. If he doesn't kick the peasant in his nuts the knight is not as noble as he wants us to think.

...He kicked the sheep in the nuts and now the peasant is chasing it, does that count?

It could be some kind of peasant sport... we need to find a better test

>If the sexism of Bretonnia makes you or your players uncomfortable, feel free to ignore it.
>feel uncomfortable
>feel
Here's another suggestion: if roleplaying hurts your feelings, quit roleplaying.

>When the lady-knight finally reveals herself, all her companions act very surprised to make her feel better, and then quietly add her name to the list of hundreds of women who have done it before.
Cute

It and Snuff are terrible and are the only two Diskworld books I've never reread and never will

I think I once heard stories about their mating rituals involving sheep.

We should be careful.

NO NO NO NO

Who is this cutie? Image search only turns up her seiyu

Someone from Maoyuu Maou Yuusha?

>if roleplaying hurts your feelings, quit roleplaying.
OR...and here me out:

You could isolate what it is about what it is that is being roleplayed that makes you feel uncomfortable. Then you can remove it from your campaign/story/whatever instead of dropping an entire hobby that contains hundreds of potential systems and stories that better suit your tastes.

Does that not sound reasonable?

Thanks

>>You could isolate what it is about what it is that is being roleplayed that makes you feel uncomfortable
Maybe you could, but if it's something as broad as 'sexism' or 'killing' maybe you should see a shrink because you will be exposed to those things via the media every single day.

Just a pity they made the Fire Dragon Princess look so terrible in the anime, when in the manga, she was in the running for best girl.

>traditionalist medieval feudal society has organic hierarchy
>MUH SEXISM

If any player was ''uncomfortable'' with this, I'd throw them out of my game.

>because you will be exposed to those things via the media every single day.
>you see it every day
>so you want it in the fantasy roleplaying where you can determine the way the world works.
>Not liking something is the same as being completely unable to handle it.

Or, maybe, they think it would be more enjoyable without an element that can be removed from the setting without much difficultly.

Because while there are some fun quirky things that come from bretonnias sexism, I could run WFRP without it, and even an adventure in Bretonnia, without even needing prep work.

It is sexism. The inclusion of it in the setting wasn't an act of sexism, but what's happening in the setting is sexism.

Throwing someone out for not liking a thing, that is not necessary for the activity, makes you an asshole.

You know, it IS possible to take a middle ground with these things...

And as for medieval society's sexism... Ehhh... I mean, in theory, circumstances COULD exist, to make a society in a culture analogous to Europe circa 800-1300CE more egalitarian? I mean, it'd have to be some pretty different circumstances to our world, but it COULD happen. Force multipliers like heavy armour; an aristocratic class capable of devoting time and resources to extensive combat training; a well-bread and trained warhorse; a lance; a good cavalry formation; etc. etc. make the difference between men and women much smaller for, say, knights, than it would be for a footslogging levy. It's not to say there ARE no differences, but when fighting against their inferiors, the differences are less noticeable.

The point is that it's a frivolous matter to take issue with. It is sexist because the society it's based on was sexists and no one who doesn't have neon hair and a gender studies degree should throw a fit about it. If I wanted an egalitarian setting then I wouldn't have based my campaign on feudal society.

I prefer the Game of Thrones version, where they go something like:

> "Yeah, a girl joined the Night Watch disguised as a boy...And her song is sweet and sad."
> "What happened to her when her brothers found out, though? Holy shit, she died REALLY badly."

Why would you want to do that? Why should you give them the middle ground?

>Women in Bretonnia are second-class citizens

And yet sluts of the lady literally run the country.

I understand and agree with you, but there are going to be some people that are going to be mad about that, and not for completely wrong reasons: think about how many settings and games and videogames make almost no difference between male or female characters, giving you absolute freedom? And a lot of different races are usually available, and many people homebrew races that aren't available?

If you're used to that, having a setting where as a whole women aren't allowed to do a lot of shit without being deep undercover would feel like a slap in the face.

But those are specially chosen sluts who are chosen more for magical ability and loyalty to a goddess, rather than people who got to rise through ranks. And even then, they certainly don't fight like a knight or slog alongside any of the peasants.

Women aren't allowed to do some shit even in modern day USA. Why the hell wouldn't that hold true in a grim medieval fantasy setting?

Honestly, I don't do the -4 Strength thing. In my games, which are all set in fantastic universes, Sexual Dymorphism is of no concern when it comes to physical strength, any more than I take issue with Dwarves being able to fight unimpeded against foes with vastly superior reach and size.
Besides, Heroes are Heroes anyway, so yeah even if the average woman in setting is weaker than the average man, a HEROIC Lady Knight isn't.

mages aren't people

You fellows seem to know an awful lot about sheep and the peasantry... I hope you're not speaking from experience.

I don't know why you're asking me that, when I'm just saying that players used to a lot of freedom might not enjoy not having a lot of freedom.

But in my opinion, biggest reason I can think of it for not holding true is that shit is so desperate gender roles are breaking down just because they need bodies to throw at the problem, or they just need people who can manage the shit that needs to be done even if they have a pair of ovaries instead of balls. More of a meritocracy in that sense.

>not approving of worshipping the ruinous powers

>throwing someone out for being a whiny cunt about disagreeing with the fictional characters in a fantasy game
>being an asshole

Not only is being a whiny cunt ALWAYS a good reason to kick someone out, being a whiny cunt for a retarded reason means they're likely not even worth having around even when they aren't whining.

I actually disagree with the former point - Bretonnia is mostly defined by its rigid accordance with social boundaries in both ways of gender and class. Some of the most interesting parts of Bretonnia are about spots where that isn't fully true, like Bordeleaux, as the pressures of the rest of the world and other situations Bretonnia faces strains at those traditions which are more viable to uphold during less stressful times.

Is that from Nausica?

What do you think most Bretonnian women who aren't magic users or the rare knight do?

Women stuff. They do women stuff all day long. Women stuff, being the opposite of man stuff, is not worth knowing about, and so we simply call it women stuff because we don't know what it actually involves.

>second-class citizens
Thats just dumb. Just because they're treated differently doesnt mean they are 2nd class. You have Queens, Maidens of the lady, princesses and even a recognized Lady Knight. They're /definetly/ not a second class citizen

Here, let me correct this:
>Peasants in Bretonnia

>Peasants in Bretonnia are second-class citizens, and many Careers are only open to them if they pretend to be people. This is not a feature of Bretonnian society of which the author or Games Workshop approves, but peasants pretending to be people make interesting characters in a roleplaying game. If the Perfectly structured and natural order of Bretonnia makes you or your players uncomfortable, feel free to ignore it.

>Aww look, they think they're people!

I would say the vast majority are going to be peasants doing the same sort of horrible, backbreaking labour that the men are up to. Possibly a bit less manual labour in exchange for more child-rearing. Noble ladies are going to be doing a lot more Housekeeping, in the sense that they'll be running the noble households, organising servants, keeping an eye on the accounts, acting on behalf of the peasants as an intercessor at manorial court. Everything that you don't have a clerk for that isn't directly involved in murdering things for the king or training to murder things for the king, essentially. If married, they'll probably also be involved in childrearing in some form, particularly the girl children, as well as various ladylike hobbies like tapestry or religious contemplation. Hunting and falconry too, albeit very likely with smaller birds - a good hunt is the sort of day out you can take the whole court on, and in Brettonia can probably double as a means of clearing your estate of beastmen, orcs or rogue elves.

The thing to remember with Bretonnia, its not at all real. Its a schizophrenic mixture of medieval France and Britain, Arthurian legend, 2000AD-esque ultra violent fantasy and what everyone imagines the Dung Ages to have been like. Its more violent than the real thing and, depending on the story you want to tell, at least as ridiculous. If you want you can make absolutely everyone ridiculously inbred psychopaths where uncaring feudal overlords tax their dung-farming slaves into grinding poverty because that's Just How It Is. You can make it a functioning medieval state where it just happens that real world myths are actually true (and are liable to burn down villages every so often). If you want the knights of Bretonnia to be approximately 50% girls in all-enclosing helms and straw beards that everyone politely pretends not to see straight through that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. Its

Or you could woman up and roleplay whatever makes you uncomfortable, so you can become a better human being.

"Don't get pissy about this."

"ALSO don't get pissy about the previous sentence asking you not to get pissy."

"Just stop being pissy, piss-heads."

It turns out that Sir Guy is actually a woman, while Bors and Bob both have dick for days.

I'm reminded of that bit in Discworld that quite a substantial part of Dwarven courthship is tentativley and sensitively finding out what lurks beneath the armour of your beloved.

I'm pretty sure the WHFRP Bretonnia book had a bit about the stereotypes of each region, but I can't remember if there was one for "massive hairy idiots".

>I don't like thing, could we please not have it in the game
>whiny cunt
If you actually believe this, you are in fact an asshole.

because it's not real, so as the GM and players you can say what's true or not.
If you want to have a game where that's true, good for you. If you don't want to have that in your game, also good for you.
That's the point.

>I actually disagree with the former point
what former point? That Brettonia is sexist?
Because they are. Also classist. and other things.

>Some of the most interesting parts
mostly agree, there are lots of interesting bits.
The work around on the sexism for shit like Shepherdesses is hilarious.
It's still easy to remove from the setting.

The classism would be a lot harder, because that's kinda the basis for the whole economy, and I'd have to do a lot of work.
But switching everything to being co-ed. I could do that three different ways before breakfast.

Legends of the Wulin was spot on IMO when dealing with sexism in a setting.

Kislev?
Though there'd be something in there about drunkeness, as every Kislevite career had a bottle of kvass as a career trapping. Literally every career.

Kislevite culture as actually pretty cool.

The former point that the user was saying that he felt he could run WFRP without it, when I make it clear I think it's a larger part of Bretonnia than he gives it for. You can't just remove it without taking away part of what makes Bretonnia interesting.

Sure, you could just take away sexism, but most people tend to tone down the classism anyway. By that point you're basically playing in a French-themed Empire.

> By that point you're basically playing in a French-themed Empire.
okay, but I can still play the game.

Of course it wouldn't be exactly like Brettonia in the setting, but it wouldn't stop me from playing the game.

As for the second point
>but most people tend to tone down the classism anyway
that might be true of most people, but doesn't need to be true of everyone. Also doesn't need to be connected with removing sexism.

If the players didn't mind, I'd highlight the classism more if I removed the sexism. To keep the rigid social structure feel of Bretonnia.
Removing one does not mean removing both.

Didn't come up in the WFRP game I last played, but forcing the very sexist (roleplayed) brettonian knight to interact with very lady like women in positions of high political power was very fun.

Yeah, I've never played this game, but this is perfect.
I kinda want to play this game now, just because the rulebook sounds like it was written by cool people

Hello my magical realm. This is going to be the basis for a nation in the setting I'm building.

It was. Cool people with cool ideas and no editors!

>no editors!
That bit sounds less than encouraging.

>no editors!
>four paragraphs to say 'sexism in this game's setting is only as important as you make it', 'we assume it doesn't affect your characters at all, there are special disadvantages for that', and 'taking those disadvantages doesn't stop you being heroic'
I can see that.

Fantastic game.

Fantastic rules.

Terrible editing.

I highly recommend it. I also highly recommend someone who already knows it to help make it less confusing on your first play.

Roleplaying raping children and destroying kingdoms does not make you a better person just because it makes you uncomfortable. What kind of logic is that?

There's really not that much point putting yourself though the headache that is learning it unless you have a wuxia-boner to shame an elephant, though.

I think that would work for the Empire, but if you wanted proper Brettonia, right up until the last noble brettonian drew breath they would have to hold to tradition, or cease to be Brettonians.

I think I read somewhere that Bretonnian women can become knights. Its just very, very, very rare.

I was thinking more in the sense of individual Bretonnian regions, like Mousillon having terrifically ugly peasants and even the best knights being being gaunt, shifty types.

My view on this is:

I have female players, I don't want them to feel punished for playing a character of their gender, so I tweak a tiny bit of the setting to suit my group in a way that doesn't really affect much. It's not like it's the first time I've tweaked something for the sake of fun.

Onna Kishi.

That might happen to a peasant girl pretending to be a knight in Bretonnia, but raping a noblewoman, even one pretending to be a knight?

They're not only going to kill you, depending on your blood, they might kill your line. The Brets are queer like that.

Interestingly, Kislev is actually explicitly an egalitarian society. So much so that Imperial nobles visiting find themselves confused and not a little unnerved.

Their tsarina is also Elsa from Frozen.

If a knight finds someone's been sticking it into one of his peasants its almost certainly going to go really badly for them too. Apart from the whole feudal social order thing (knights get to rule because they keep the peace, which usually means more than just the occasional Orc war), those filthy serfs are essentially property. They have value, even if individually they're worth a lot less than a good horse. Nobody damages your property and gets away with it. Honour demands it!

>ust because they're treated differently doesnt mean they are 2nd class.
We don't take kindly to logic 'round these here parts, cis scum.

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So not even RPGs are safe from SJW faggotry eh?