Dungeon Exploration

Doesn't it have all kinds of crap that's mechanically focused on your character's backstory and personality and "narrativist" (even though GNS theory is bullshit) crap like that, which isn't necessary in a dungeon crawl at all?

Literally a shitshow compared to AW. Enjoy that munchkin XP treadmill, watered down bonds, and lack of moves that build on top of each other cleanly.

The GM advice is well written but not unique, and it is worth reading over, but it is the single most overrated TTRPG on be market basically earning AW's same accolades over again for the same reasons.

I desperately want to do some hardcore dungeon crawls with Classic Fantasy. Combining RuneQuest 6's combat and "common sense" approach with AD&D turned out really solid.

It is super crunchy though.

>Doesn't it have all kinds of crap that's mechanically focused on your character's backstory and personality and "narrativist" (even though GNS theory is bullshit) crap like that, which isn't necessary in a dungeon crawl at all?

Yeah maybe it does! Please explain EXACTLY what the fuck is wrong with that? I'm waiting.

Shut the fuck up. Dungeon World takes Vincent Baker's fledgling idea and turns it into a true system using mechanics from the most popular RPG of all time. Dungeon World is an actual evolution in roleplaying games. It is UNEQUALED in its quality as a beginner's game, and for play much later on.

Last session in Dungeon World my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. This is real roleplaying we're talking about here, not babby 3.5 shit. Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?

OP wants "dedicated dungeon delving." That is, a game where you go in holes and try to steal treasure from monsters. A game that focuses specifically on doing that, and success or failure at doing so.

So a game that focuses on that kind of stuff is not what OP is asking for, as per the EIGHT words you had to read in order to be able to accurately answer the question, but apparently chose not to in favor of shilling your favorite system.

>Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?
Yes. Do you think that kind of shit doesn't happen in old school D&D games? That Dungeon World innovated the idea of player improvisation?

You seem incredibly butthurt.

Don't feed the trolls.

Just like when this pasta shows up in the 5e thread, yes. The answer is always yes except for 3.pf games which no one will recommend in this thread.

...

Normally this faggot refuses to respond to legitimate criticism, so it used to not hurt. I'll avoid the (you)s

>Whats the best system for dedicated dungeon delving?
>yes.
What?

I don't recognize that acronym.

>Shut the fuck up. Dungeon World takes Vincent Baker's fledgling idea and turns it into a true system using mechanics from the most popular RPG of all time. Dungeon World is an actual evolution in roleplaying games. It is UNEQUALED in its quality as a beginner's game, and for play much later on.

>Last session in Dungeon World my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window. This is real roleplaying we're talking about here, not babby 3.5 shit. Can you say the same about your AD&D games? Or any of the other shitty dungeon crawlers you are shilling in this thread?
Pic related.
Basic/Expert. It's one of the early D&D versions. Google for more info.

>OP wants "dedicated dungeon delving."

Yep. That's Dungeon World.

> That is, a game where you go in holes and try to steal treasure from monsters.

Again, Dungeon World does that. That is exactly what the game is about.

> So a game that focuses on that kind of stuff is not what OP is asking for, as per the EIGHT words you had to read in order to be able to accurately answer the question, but apparently chose not to in favor of shilling your favorite system.

Nope because I gave OP a recommendation that EXACTLY fits his criteria.

> Yes. Do you think that kind of shit doesn't happen in old school D&D games? That Dungeon World innovated the idea of player improvisation?

It did not "innovate" it as that is not the proper verb there, but it basically did invent it as a core roleplaying mechanic. As well as partial success and consequences for failure. There are many original ideas in Dungeon World. What original ideas does D&D have? Oh, that's right, ZERO.

>Basic/Expert. It's one of the early D&D versions. Google for more info.

It's also complete shit. Dungeon World takes everything good about basic / AD&D and makes it 100% cooler with mechanics that encourage roleplaying and backstory development, and reward players taking creative action. As opposed to D&D, where just to grapple a dragon I have to pass a shtiton of rolls. But it won't matter because I didn't take the feats that would allow me to grapple, and I'm also not the right class, so fuck me, right?

No, I say, FUCK THAT SHIT

Dungeon World represents a new era in gaming where you are free to play the way you want to; not the way some faggots at Wizards of the Fucking Faggot Ass Coast want you to.

You are such slaves it is astounding to me. Keep deepthroating WotC cock. Dungeon World is an evolution of roleplaying and will destroy D&D as it gains momentum, which it is doing more and more every day.

Without D&D where would we be?

The splats are incredibly restrictive in my opinion, I like the system, but feel I lack much customization of my character.

>What original ideas does D&D have? Oh, that's right, ZERO.
It invented RPGs.
There were no feats before 3e. You'd roll one time to grapple the dragon. As far as backstory development, it's not ABOUT your fucking history. It's about who you are now. About the fact that you're the asshole crazy enough to go into a dungeon and steal gold from scary, horrific things, and will live and die by that decision. Also, B/X was made by TSR, not Wizards. You can play a B/X clone (as found in the OSR thread) without Wizards getting a cent.

>It invented RPGs.
Before you get pedantic with me here, what I mean is, the invention of D&D was the invention of the RPG.

Please do not respond to the Dungeon World fag.

He is trolling. That should be apparent by now.

But I'm bored.

>Whats the best system for dedicated dungeon delving?

> best

>It invented RPGs.

Yeah and if Gygax hadn't invented them, the idea would have been created eventually. We owe him nothing. If he had died in 1970 the world would be a better place. Maybe we'd have gotten a better-designed game, like Dungeon World, as the world's first RPG, and RPG design would start 30 years ahead of where it started out.

>I like the system, but feel I lack much customization of my character.

Dungeon World offers more customization than any other game. Want to be an orc paladin? Homebrew it. Want to have a laser machine gun? Homebrew it. Dungeon World offers all the tools to be the most homebrewable game out there. It certainly doesn't force you to conform to its autistic rules the way D&D 5e does, using outdated mechanics like hit dice and healing surges that have nothing to do with what matters, which is the roleplaying and storyline. That is what matters, not your stupid character stats.

Name one thing about Dungeon World that:

1. Is objectively a good thing.
2. Wasn't already present in at least one edition of D&D that was released before it.

A dungeon crawl is about surviving or dying. It's not about your half-orc warrior's depression because he lives in an oppressive society or the fact that your wizard can't get laid. Nobody gives a shit.

It's about getting treasure and getting out alive, and you win or lose based on how good you are at playing the game. It is a game of skill to be won or lost.

Any game that doesn't offer you the chance to win or lose based on your ability to appropriate respond to threats and challenges is a bad dungeon crawling game, and any game with extraneous bullshit about the trauma your dwarf has because he saw mommy and daddy fucking is wasting player time on shit that DOES NOT MATTER.

>with what matters, which is the roleplaying and storyline
Story is only good in a dungeon crawl if it happens to emerge from the events which occur in the pursuit of the treasure in the dungeon. Trying to make a story happen for the sake of it is a surefire way to ruin the game. Which is why Dungeon World is a shitty game for hipsters who think PBR is anything better than the most drinkable pissbeer.

1) Bonds, which 5e ripped off from DW
2) Fast combat
3) Rules light (don't even pretend OD&D is rules light)
4) easy to home brew (unlike D&D's autistic constrictive rules)
5) Fuck you
6) Fuck you

You can not play Dungeon World and wallow in your 5faggot shit hole if you want to, but DO NOT DARE POISON THE MINDS OF NEW ROLEPLAYERS ON HERE LOOKING FOR GOOD SYSTEMS. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR QUALITY, NOT YOUR BABBY D&D SHIT. HOW DARE YOU RUIN THEIR ROLEPLAYING EXPERIENCE FOR YOUR OWN FUCKING SELFISH GOALS.

I fucking hate D&D players. I really hope the next ISIS attack is at a D&D convention. Fucking faggots.

I think its a fun simple game, I think it could probably be improved upon. Not sure if its best for what OP is asking though.

>Bonds
Irrelevant to dungeon crawling.
>Fast combat
Combat that takes time is only bad if combat is not enjoyable or interesting, which depends on the DM.
>Rules light (don't even pretend OD&D is rules light)
Aside from EXP, it is, though.
>easy to home brew
Old school D&D is easy as hell to homebrew.
>Fuck you
>Fuck you
I'm glad we're being civilized here.

>5faggot
But I play Swords & Wizardry.

B/X
Various OSR games; see OSR thread for more info
4e, if you crave the video game feeling

Avoid:
3.5/pathfinder (For reasons we all know)

Dungeon World (it's a "dungeon crawler" based on a system for hardline interpersonal drama, tries to fit things like meat-point HP into a "narrativist" system, essentially a lazy mishmash of two different systems that misses the point of both)

'In all the dungeon world games I played I only think one actually involved a dungeon.

>You are such slaves it is astounding to me. Keep deepthroating WotC cock. Dungeon World is an evolution of roleplaying and will destroy D&D as it gains momentum, which it is doing more and more every day.
You know there are more games than just Dungeon World and DnD 5e, right? You should probably try something less restrictive than class based fantasy focused systems like GURPS or Savage Worlds.

Yes I know your'e a troll. But you deserve a (you) you're going all out.

Mythras Fantasy will have everything you need friend.

Well, OP wanted good dungeon crawlers. If none of your adventures involve dungeons, you're not playing a dungeon crawler, now are you?

I've run a few DW sessions myself, and I'd say it does dungeons pretty well, actually. And unlike the troll I actually like Dungeon World I feel it's better for that than generic fantasy adventure, as the rules are geared towards dangerous situations where stuff gets out of hand quickly.

But I'd still recommend Basic D&D for most folks dungeon crawling -- it's what I came into the thread to say.

Well, actually it depends, I guess. If their idea of dungeon crawling is more heroic fantasy with protagonists cutting down bad guys left and right then maaaybe I'd point 'em toward DW, but if they want a more gritty Darkest Dungeons kind of thing where foolish people go down into the murder-hole and either get rich or die horribly, Basic is the shit.

This system doesn't specialize in Dungeon Crawling, but it manages it fairly well.
The formatting, page layout, and page style are balls though.

Anyone here ever play Dungeon Crawl Classics? I got the beta rules at Free RPG Day probably five or six years back, and I remember it seemed like it had some interesting rules, but I never got around to playing it.

>The formatting, page layout, and page style are balls though.

Huh know where I might be able to find this game? low fantasy it looks like? something i might be able to get into

Did the troll leave or is s/he just really putting a lot of effort in and taking time to make the shitposts just right?

WHAT DO THE POKEBALLS MEAN!?

Try the OSR trove. If it's not there, post in the thread, and I'll upload it.

I think he left, I'm the reasonable Dungeon World guy.

Why is the dm advice in Dungeon world so fucking good?

They're doors. The colors mean different things like one way, locked, or opening only from one side.

DM's advice in narrativist games is always good because those are the only games where the designer put any thought into helping the GM beyond "here's mechanics to referee, fuck you"

...

>as the rules are geared towards dangerous situations where stuff gets out of hand quickly.
One of the complaints I've heard about DW is that it is just too easy to do everything. Something about a dragon's HP or something. I was only kind of paying attention. So is it super easy or crazy hard out of hand times?

YES I GET THAT BUT WHAT DOES EACH TYPE OF SYMBOL MEAN?! RED MUST BE TRAPS BUT WHY ARE SOME OF THE POKEBALLS RED AND THEIR BOXES WHITE AND OTHERS HAVE HALF-RED BOXES? AND WHAT DO THE GREY POKEBALLS MEAN AND THE BLACK ONES?! WHY ARE SOME SIDES OF THE POKEBALLED COLORED AND OTHER NOT?!

FUCKING MAP MAKERS, THIS IS WHY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ALWAYS PUT A FUCKING KEY ON YOUR SHIT REEEEEE

Oh okay, WAIT! BLACK IS TRAPPED AND RED IS LOCKED!?

but seriously, thank you.

I dunno. Some of it is obviously inherited from Apocalypse World, but in some places it's noticeably better. (AW notably doesn't bother to explain jack shit about what "be a fan of the players" means, which led many folks to think it meant pander to them or give them what they want or something.) I think it just comes from LaTorra and Koebel being good GMs?

There's also that. I really hate it when a game's dm section is like "I dunno, do some gm type shit or something. Make it up, you're in charge!" Of course I'm in charge, but what should I do to run YOUR fucking game specifically so it doesn't just fall over?

It's as easy or hard as the DM wants to make it -- difficulty is largely decided by what you're rolling and when, and the DM is in charge of that, within the rules.
If the DM is lazy, hasn't read the DM rules, or whatever. then it can be a cakewalk. But one thing I like is that I can really put the screws to a party in DW, in ways that would cause an instant TPK in Basic, and they can probably, with effort, pull themselves out of it.
The Apocalypse engine does escalation really well, and rather than death happening in the blink of an eye, you get a sort of slow motion feel of a train careening towards a cliff, and desperately trying to pull the handle and stop it.
Players are tough and can take a beating, but when the rolls start going poorly and the DM starts making moves, it becomes difficult for players to stop the downward slide.

You are exactly the reason people hate DW.

>narrativist
No such thing. GNS theory a shit. Besides, the AD&D DMG was huge and is so awesome that people use it for inspiration in running totally unrelated games.

He's a troll pretending to love DW. Stop feeding him.

I just can't really see what it brings to the table that's worth keeping over other, lighter retro games. I found it plays like a well worn set of someone's BECMI house rules: it probably worked well enough for the original audience.

The level 0 meatgrinder is amusing and is probably the only thing I'd directly crib, but only for a certain type of game (the kind where the player doesn't care if you decide his or her background and profession).

The tables of lelwhacky wild magic, fumbles and crits feel like imports of the very worst parts of 2e, and the combat in general just is complicated by things like the spellduels (get ready for more tables), dice chains and luck. The deeds are alright, but probably things i would just ad-hoc during play anyway if my players wanted to take creative actions.

The luck mechanic, as presented, is alright and reminiscent of hackmaster honor. For a game played as written it's kind of necessary as padding against the possibility of hitting a landmine result on a crit, fumble or magic table.

The boner for zocchi dice is just fucking stupid. I know you can get around it. That doesn't make it any less stupid.

With so much else to choose from, I couldn't find any justification to keep bringing it into long term play over any of my other nostalgia-motivated games.

>The level 0 meatgrinder is amusing and is probably the only thing I'd directly crib

Go for it, DCC borrowed it from TSR's module N4 - Treasure Hunt.

>the most homebrewable game out there
This has to be on some greatest hits of the most retarded things posted on this board.

It's not my map. And the source does have a key. You'll find that key here

Whats the OSR trove?

mega.nz/#F!3FcAQaTZ!BkCA0bzsQGmA2GNRUZlxzg!jJtCmTLA

>so fuck me, right?

Indeed!

The trove for the OSR general:

>dungeon delving
Dungeons and dungeon ecosystems make absolutely no sense, unless they're a fever dream pocket dimension created by a wizard with a boner for infinitely large dank crypts or castle basements.

Fireballs and dragons seldom test my suspension of disbelief. But dungeons... what are they even doing there.

GNS theory holds up when classifying game design types because some designers have bought into it - there's an entire sub-set of game designers who not only buy into it but actively try to avoid doing "narrativist" things in their games in favor of being "Simulationist".

(Like I swear to god this is the problem with a lot of Paizo's fucking bullshit as people are that company not only buy into GNS theory but feel that "narrativism" causes penises to roll up into their owners bodies and give them menstruals. Which just goes to show you that even a stopped clock is right once a day)

1. As a new person to the thread, Holy fuck you're butthurt.
2. Even if you don't like d&d, dungeon world is shit. It's a shit spinoff of a mediocre system.
3. It's a fucking storygame, not a role-playing game. It's not about getting into and role playing your character, it's about collaborative story telling, which is why you can influence the world as a player outside of your characters direct actions.
Storygames are fine , but they're a different type of game entirely. You play as a writer/director, not as your character. The focus is different.
4. Id rather play fate any other apocalypse world engine game than dungeon world.

That will be all.

>people still taking obvious bait

Man, Veeky Forums never learns, huh?

What if the rooms of a dungeon were so large that they were mistaken for countries and their walls for mountain ranges?

Your pain will be legendary, even in hell.

What if we learn but it's our fetish?

This is slightly updated copypasta, right?

This map is awesome. What's it from?

>Best Dungeoncrawling
OSR Games, several flavors of unisystem, gurps dungeon fantasy, fantasy craft, openquest, rq6 classic fantasy, maybe harp, 5e, 2e, to some extent 3e.
Seriously user, there's a ton of options, many of them quite good.

My personal favorites are gurps dungeon fantasy and cinematic unisystem.

>Nobody *actually* believes dungeon world is any good, and that pasta is very stale!
Op might not know that, and pointing out how shit dungeon world is, is fun!

This pasta have been through the microwave too many times.

I agree, bro. The Classic Fantasy supplement made me goddamn thirsty for that Mythras release.

Okay, in the post apocalyptic Earth, rats replace humans as the flagship species, and a ragtag group of adventurers wander into the ruins of the Burj Khalifa. Rumor has it that an newly discovered, indigenous chicken/snake chimera has been spotted, and the king fancies the idea of his soldiers riding them into battle. Worst case scenario, they open a Kentucky Fried Chickensnake franchise. Little do our heroes know, a neurotic djinni has taken residence in the Burj, indulging in pre-war nostalgia. Can our fluffbutts navigate the illusionary horrors of 21st century life? What will they make of the Middle Eastern remake of Seinfeld? Tune in next session, where slap bass is rediscovered, and the party's druid reconsiders the appropriateness of her attire.

It basically is a good "how to GM a sandbox" advice. Forming memorable foes, designing living campaigns, etc.

It then gives the GM the rules to enable that in designing fronts and giving them their own sets of moves.

The problem is that modern D&D already has that same feeling of slowly losing control when things go wrong, along with a lot of game that are not D&D. DW really just makes it possible for a DM to fudge everything intelligently - because the DM has no dice.

So why does everyone pretend modern D&D is the only D&D?

>The problem is that modern D&D already has that same feeling of slowly losing control when things go wrong, along with a lot of game that are not D&D

While this is true, the mechanical focus on escalating tensions that's built into the apocalypse engine makes this stuff really sing IMO. But hey, that's just my opinion.
>DW really just makes it possible for a DM to fudge everything intelligently - because the DM has no dice.

Yeah, and I enjoy that. Running DW is a nice change from those other systems where I need to stat out a bunch of shit beforehand. It runs so smooth. (I still run other systems, though)

>Aside from EXP, it is, though.
XP isn't complicated. The worst it gets in the TSR editions is either 2e's individual XP bonuses or 0e's fractional system, depending on whether you find keeping track of odd things worse than multiplying by fractions.

It also appears in Greyhawk Adventures, if you want a slightly refined version.

Fuck if I know. I just pointed out "HP bloat" is there to slowly snowball defeats instead of making it feel like rocket tag. 3e failed miserably at it, 4e went too far pre MM3, and 5e has a good balance if you like lengthy boss encounters.

I just don't like DW compared to something that takes advantage of the social dynamics PbtA games are actually designed for. DW would be a lot better if it wasn't shoehorning AW stuff into D&D and just made a retroclone with BRP partial failure concepts.

Old d&d is clunky and lacks sufficient character customization options.

I prefer 3.pf (if i have to pick a d&d) because of the vast assortment of character options, prebuilt opponents, and prebuilt adventures.

These days, most of the time i lean toward something with point-buy creation and the ability to make/modify powers and magic on demand, to accommodate that.

GURPS and Unisystem are both good for that.

And i can homebrew for Pathfinder/3.5 pretty easily these days if I'm running that for whatever reason.

Degrees of success /failure are one of the best innovations in game design, for sure

>bloat is characterization

>muh: pathfinder has problems so there's no possible chance there might also be things people like about it, or that they might choose Pathfinders shortcomings over the shortcomings of another game!

Are there things anybody should be able to attempt stupidly locked behind a feat wall? Yes. Are there balance issues? Also yes.

If older d&d had less clunky mechanics and ACFs/archetypes and more races (or reasonable point - based rules for making your own races), and more special abilities (or again, solid point - based rules for making them yourself)?

Maybe I'd be playing ad&d or an ad&d clone instead of Pathfinder plus various non d&d games.

I don't *need* half a dozen books of character options if the core rules are flexible.

If i want to build a mediocre swordsman who transforms into a huge dragon for short periods of time, can i do that in ad&d? Not really.

Can I do that in m&m, gurps, hero, and Pathfinder? Yes.

Hi DWirt

Fucking lol

Torchbearers.

>when the bait is just right