Paladins done right

We were playing in a pre-campaign to set the stage within the DM's homebrew setting. An avatar of Cas (the moose headed God of spite) was being summoned within a ruined cathedral in the center of a medium sized city.

The party paladin resisted three different attempts to save or die (fear, bribe, instakill) in the games climax, giving a short in character speech alongside each one. The rest of the party had been bodied and were dead silent during the whole thing. It was the most "hero of justice" moment, cheesy or not, I've seen that didn't devolve to in jokes.

He ended up facing the party's Rogue, who accepted the offer from Cas, in the acid rain on the cathedral steps.

Paladin fought to the end but ultimately lost as the session faded to black. We picked up with a new set of characters for NE/LE game set within the aftermath of Cas reigning in the region and the Rogue ascending to sub-Demi-god hood.

>Save or die
Literally the worst mechanic ever devised. A character should never die as a result of random chance, but bad choices, whether those be combat strategy, social gaffes, refusal to rest and recover, or pointless risks.

Tarquin was cool, but still falls under "something with a desert". Malak can go die in a fire, and darth V was angst to edge to angst.

>Fucking over the Paladin
That's the part that annoys me the most. A Paladin falls when he turns to Evil willingly and without duress, being forced to kill all the babies isn't going to make you "Fall" at least not directly. It may make you fall if you're presented with the chance to avenge the babies via Evil though.

>playing CN rogue
>there is a paladin in the party
>we are at a farm talking with a farmer
>I sneak off to steal some shit
>Paladin catches me
>gives me a warning, says not to do it again and confess to the farmer about what I tried to do
>later on party is in a mansion
>again, I sneak off to steal some shit
>for some unknown reason, the rest of the group manages to catch me just as I am leaving a room with a pocket full of gold
>he turns me over to the guards
>get jailed for the rest of campaign
>have to create new character

I hate Paladins

>I don't doubt the kindness of your heart, my child...
>But you might lack wisdom to represent one of my chosen warriors
Boom

As originally devised, save or dies were what happened when you *had* made bad choices and should be viewed as "save to live", a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card. Play smart and you'd avoid needing to make them in the first place; the saving throw was your second chance (or third chance, or fourth...) after you fucked up.

But I agree that they've become a monstrosity as they proliferated.

Ha, fagt

>I hate [narrative construct]
Okay

>owns all the goddamn books

>As originally devised, save or dies were what happened when you *had* made bad choices and should be viewed as "save to live", a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card
>angering a spellcaster
>fighting a spellcaster
>not shanking a spellcaster in his sleep
Sounds like a good time for a "save to live" to me :^)

Shouldn't have gotten caught bitch.

To be fair here, stuff like
>This instant death potion is indistinguishable from a potion of healing, unless by means of casting a spell that's more expensive than a healing potion to begin with unless you've been lucky enough at character creation to roll Identify for your wizard's only spell but not lucky enough to roll Sleep
>This completely innoculous fountain kills you if you so much as touch it
>There's a millipede with instant death bite under a privy bucket in orc chieftain's room
Are complete bullshit

Look man, when the DM forces you to kill babies, you're gonna end up with dead babies no mayyer what you do. This isn't the RPG at the schoolbus of kids, this is explicit "kill these kids or I kill the world"

So tell me, if "save or die" is a consequence for making bad decisions, why do only mages have them?

I mean, why don't Fighters have save-or-lose or save-or-die for dealing a certain percentage of an opponent's life in one swing?

Why don't Rangers have a SoL/SoD for striking a specific area of an opponent's body.

Why don't Rogues have a SoL/SoD for dealing enough sneak attack damage to someone who isn't aware or something?

Now, sure, Monks do get a SoD effect at level 17...but the problem is that by that time, either campaign is over or every other creature you fight has many more SoL/SoD spells than you, with the added benefit of having high Fort to boot.

don't forget
>not reading up on the spellcaster so you can prepare appropriate protection/resistance/immunity

Aaaand then spellcasters were proliferated and all assumed to be sharing spells like they're medieval open-source geeks rather than secretive recluses clutching every scrap of power.

While keeping the save or dies and adding a bunch of "save or lose in a way that is technically not death".

If GM's not leaving a third option, he's a fag.
If paladin isn't inventive enough to find a third way...

"save or die" *was* that. It isn't anymore. Now it's just an appendix: serves no purpose, randomly kills you with appendicitis.

Massive damage, slaying weapons, assassin death attack.

But see also on how "save or die" and mages got stupid as they got ubiquitous. Mages used to have to research for even a chance of a new spell; now they just scribe it off the great spell library in spell land where spellbooks grow on spell trees.

>Oh, you want to be clever and sidestep my catch 22 scenario?
>Well congrats, you save nobody, take that L faggot.

Seriously, shit GMs and edgelords are a mistake.

As that user put it, "as originally devised", so let's go with old D&Ds

There's not ONE SoD spell in Moldvay Basic book. Two Save or Sucks but there it was supposed to emulate whether the target had strong enough will.
SoDs were (WERE!) for the exploration part of the game, not players' aggrandizement

Captain Obvious?

My GM is running an urban game so I was considering basically making a paladin based off Batman. Shadowy vigilante dedicated to justice.

The problem is I've discovered it is at odds with the shining Knight archetype

Paladins are traditionally brave warriors who smite All The Evil. Batman is in many ways a dirty fighter but is so dedicated to not killing he'll stop to save the joker.

Should I just ditch the idea to play a a rouge or it worth continuing?

What's the system?

Good old fashion 5e.

We were using second ed. but enough of the old guard move on that we upgraded.

LG Vengeance Paladin then?
Though it might be more Batman to make him martial, like a Battlemaster Fighter or Assassin Rogue

Mechanically just how do 5e paladins in the TANK DPS BUFF Trinity? They always seem to be split three ways in older editions.

>Tank
Tanking isn't much of a thing in 5e but Paladins can wear plate, use shields, buff their AC with spells and have fighter-tier HP. It might still be a bit hard to force youur enemy to pay attention to you

>DPS
Paladins can give out immense damage with their smites but once they run out of spell slots, Battlemaster Fighters are better at murderizing
Oath of Vengeance paladins are the killier subclass

>BUFF
Pretty good. Aura of Protection is one of the only ways to give pluses to saves in the game and that's kind of a big deal
Oath of Protection is the buffier subclass

Oath of the Ancients is the badly done attempt to emulate the concept of an amazingly cool 4e class subclass

which subclass was that?

Warden. It was a kind of wardruid that partially transformed by assuming aspects of nature spirits. Wore no armor and carried shields.
Oath of the Ancients Paladin is... a paladin with some fey paint

Ah interesting.

Kind of skipped over 4e but I don't think it deserves quite the hate it gets.

Any other classes that got knocked to the wayside? I know Warlords was supposed to be cool I regret not playing them the few times I did as I assumed they would just be the 'edge' class from the name.

Yeah, but given the way Oaths work in 5e, it's pretty damn cool. Encourages good and kind acts without a care for law, and gives some tasteful variety in the class that people sometimes forget when not given the explicit option.

>getting caught twice
Sounds to me like someone's just a bad rogue.

There isn't any Avenger class, maybe because its primary class mechanic was advantage on attack before advantage was a thing. Unarmored holy assassin is cool as fuck though.