To all bcash supporters

same blockchain, miners and white paper.
bitcoin cash is real bitcoin.

with a deflationary currency the commerce wouldnt just instantly freeze to a halt. just take a look at something like iphones: you can get an iphone for almost half a price if you just wait a year or so (the price is deflationary), but theres still plenty of mongoloids camping overnight for weeks to be the first cuck to trade in his neetbux for the shiny piece of shit.
people would need to change their habits slightly and would need to stop buying useless, trivial shit like they do right now, but that wouldnt mean the end of economy like some keynesian kike dick sucking cucks want you to believe.

>Why would you like to buy shit with crypto, what's the point?

Banks can't print them.

>look, for instance, if i bought a game on steam 2 days ago worth 40 bucks (0.0034btc), the same amount of btc would be 52 bucks today.
>What's the point of buying shit with a currency that volatile?

Well, what's the point of holding a currency that doesn't go up in value?

>look, for instance, if i bought a game on steam 2 days ago worth 40 bucks (0.0034btc), the same amount of btc would be 52 bucks today.
you have to get used to it.

>And slowly but surely you realize crypto is all a big ponzi full of hypocrites

not profitable use as a currency yet => is a ponzi full of hypocrites, man that is one long bridge you want us to take

>banks cant print them

this is why you would sell something for it, not buy, case in point you are selling fiat for the bit coins.

>point of hodling currency that doesnt go up in value

that is precisely the point, it keeps the gears turning

>you have to get used to it

easy as long as you're the guy that always had it... why are you buying these internet monies again? the big boys could still buy your life out in an instant, let that sink in.

>appreciating asset
so for you bitcoin = crypto kitties?
meh that's not totally false atm

nope, the fees and transaction time issues comes from his proposed used case of crypto (which is commerce). the volatility problem for bcash (but the other way around, cause bcash is inflationary compared to bitcoin)

the goal of the game is to hold more bitcoins

don't tell me you came with that on your own

You're confused by too many memes. Let me put it this way, if you knew something was going to be worth more next year why would you want to spend it?

Bitcoin currently has 10+ dollar fees and it's not accepted anywhere and nobody is using it for commerce.

>Banks can't print them.
in theory banks print money to inflate its value, to encourage consumption.

>Well, what's the point of holding a currency that doesn't go up in value?
no one holds fiat, you do something with it, you buy shit, you invest etc

>you have to get used to it.
nah i'm feeling better holding btc and buying more, we'll see about the spending part in a year or two.

Mostly true, keep in mind a $10 fee is fucking nothing, literally dust, compared to what it can cost to send large sums internationally

Friendly reminder:

The problem is that transactions on chain are either going to be expensive OR they will be less expensive (but still expensive) and the network's security will be compromised.

With LN and sidechains, we will have a system that can begin to be used for commerce for real and not just as a proof-of-concept. People like Roger Ver and companies like Coinbase, Bitpay, SatoshiDice, etc. are pissed that their free ride is being taken away.

Read this, it explains what has been happening and what will likely happen next:

medium.com/@rusty_lightning/the-three-economic-eras-of-bitcoin-d43bf0cf058a

to deflate it's value user

Yeah but I can actually use that money that I'm sending anywhere.

>Whats the point of spending with a currency that deflates
This argument is bad. I will explain why.

If you have 40 dollars worth on a day and you can decide whether to have it in fiat or BTC when you make the payment for something you're buying anyway it makes no difference whether it's in BTC or fiat because you're spending it anyway.

It is only in the case where you are not spending it that it is important to hold it in BTC instead of fiat. You lose nothing by instead of having your spending money in fiat, you have it in a deflationary currency. In fact, you are likely to gain by having your spending money pool in a deflationary currency because you will never completely empty your spending pool.

Illustration:

You have 400 USD worth of currency in your wallet for spending, you can have it in either BTC or USD, you buy a steam game with it.

Scenario 1: You are a BTC user. You buy the the steam game with BTC, you have 360 USD worth left and maybe it rises to 390 tomorrow, who knows.

Scenario 2: You are a USD user, you have 400 USD, you pay with 40. You have 360 USD.

You lose nothing in choosing scenario 1 over scenario 2. This dispels the argument that it is bad for an individual to choose a deflationary currency for personal consumption spending, because it is at least an as good choice as having one's spending money in fiat.

Scenario 3: You have 400 USD worth of BTC, you turn 40 of it into fiat before buying your game. The same outcome as buying with 40 USD worth of BTC, that is, scenario 1.

Scenario 4: You have 400 USD, you convert 40 of it to BTC and buy your game. Same outcome as scenario 2.

Venezuelans and Turks don't have another choice. Their currency is free falling. Other coins have the same scaling problems as btc. And btc has solved it yesterday on mainnet.

medium.com/@lightning_network/lightning-protocol-1-0-compatibility-achieved-f9d22b7b19c4

ok so we agreed all along, that's what you're saying?

nobody is using bitcoin for commerce, because as the dude higher says it's an "appreciating asset"

So when everyone tries to move their bitcoin to a 2nd layer. What happens to the network and fees?

No people used it in the past. They don't use it now because it costs over 10 dollars to do transactions with it. This is one of the main reasons just yesterday steam stopped supporting it. Which was long overdue imo

Well you can't because you sent it somewhere, the other goy would have to convert it back to fiat to use it yes, it's fucking cumbersome but no more than shit like SWIFT, and that is right now at this minute

He's right though

It's literally a bubble. Fortunately, the bottleneck of getting your crypto into cash is so narrow that it popping would be difficult. Even if everyone wanted to cash out at once, they couldn't.

iphones aren't deflationary, they're a commodity. Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency, but no one can and no one will use it as a currency because it's so volatile.

Yeah we are, but now I'm going to ask you about the other side of it, do you think it would be easier or harder to get somebody to give you something they knew would be worth more vs something they knew would be worth less next year? For example, would ANYBODY buy that game?

>Why would you like to buy shit with crypto, what's the point?
Uh. Dude. That's the whole fucking point. It had one fucking job and it can't even handle the transaction volume of a medium-sized walmart.

Dinosaurcoin is going to die because it can't be used as a currency. It can't even be used as a "store of value" because you can't move around or withrdraw that "store of value" without spending 8% of it in transaction fees.

It was a nice experiment that proved crypto is possible, but now it's time to move on. bubblecoin is like the Netscape of crypto. It's deprecated. It's legacycoin at this point. You're just buying it to sell it to someone else at a higher price. It has no use beyond tulips.

The logic still applies analogously in the case of deflation, but you're right about the volatility

i bought a car several months ago using bitcoin (a used skoda, still waiting for lamboland). the $10 fee was smaller than a wire transfer fee.
its not used to buy dildos and coffees, but its pretty good to use if youre buying anything more expensive.

Not everything is going to be moved to 2nd layers. Bitcoin can't be "moved" from the main chain anyway. LN just uses some neat tricks to allow for payment channels where final settlement happens on the mainchain.

I think that people will balance mainchain, sidechain, and offchain use based on their security versus cost priorities.

Yeah that's pretty cool. Houses/property are also another big one.

the price deflates, there is deflation and then there is deflation user

If people are constantly managing between first and 2nd layer it will only make the problem worse.

you hold flat, it basically takes a -2%hit every year.
you hold btc (for last year that was +1650%, which is insane btw).
you have a fiat revenue every month.
you use this fiat to buy more btc, and buy other shit.
if you want to use your btc, fine, you don't "lose" money sure, but you've just missed one hell of a potential income.

that's it, why is this argument bad?

This

I believe in crypto, but Bitcoin is literally tulips at this point

>Even if everyone wanted to cash out at once, they couldn't.
And this is why anyone smart has already cashed out. You won't get your money when it crashes.
No, he's an idiot. The reason the price of an iphone drops is because the latest and greatest new version of the iphone just came out.

Why?
>constantly managing
You make it sound hard, but would it really be?

>What happens to the network and fees?
Think about it like this: Once a month you open a LN channel and transact funds there. You pay for everything offchain. At the end of the Month you close the channel. This means there will be 2 onchain transaction per person each month, so (amount of people)*2 transactions.

Right now we have N onchain transaction per person each month, so (amount of people)*N transactions. N in this case could be Coinbase with millions of transactions.

So now we have like 1 Billion users making 1000 Transactions each month (average) and after LN we have 1 Billion users making 2 Transactions each month.

More transactions = more network usage = higher fees = slower transactions
repeat

Nah, crypto kitties is literally tulips, you faggot.

Nobody is currently using bitcoin in day to day transactions. You keep it on a wallet or keep it on an exchange and move between to the two once and awhile.

>Other coins have the same scaling problems as BTC.

Not really. Bitshares alone can handle VISA tier tx/seconds. There are multiple coins that can handle at least 1000+ tx/s too, like lumens.

its actually more like 5-6% every year.
since (((they))) calculate inflation as the rise in prices of certain goods, the prices rise ~2-3% (thats what (((they))) call inflation). you actually have to add another ~3%, which come from increased productivity, ie if inflation was 0% (constant money supply) the prices of more or less everything would fall by ~3% every year.

Holy shit you're fucking retarded. You wanna buy more Bitcoin with it's dollar price increase?

>Hey user, it's the taxman. Where the fuck did you get all that money to buy that property? Where is your tax form? We never got one from you.

LN combines a lot of transactions, possibly thousands, into 1 single transaction to be settled on the main chain by big centralized hubs.
Exchanges already do this when they send out bitcoin or ethereum. When people withdraw, they send out a single multi-destination transaction that bundles all the user withdrawals in the last X amount of time.

> Divorcing the settlement and transaction layers; the long con and maybe the real story behind the hijacking of Bitcoin.

reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7fsbw5/divorcing_the_settlement_and_transaction_layers/

Read this and come back.

that's what ln is for, making it everyday usable

You still think in visa scale. Cute. Bitcoin is thinking in 1.000.000*Visa scale

The reason for the price decrease doesn't matter, you know you'll get a better phone for the same dollar amount if you just wait six months but decide against it anyways because you value it at present time more than in the future, same logic applies to deflationary currencies, hence deflation is in no way a problem, it's a desirable characteristic of sound money

I didn't talk about buying with BTC instead of fiat that you have. I'm talking about having all your money in BTC at all times and you spend from that BTC when you want to spend.

Having any money in fiat instead of BTC at any time is bad according to your own argument, so you should also have the money you use for spending sitting in BTC as well.

This is why BTC makes at least as much sense as fiat for spending.

Yes but in order to accomplish this (it wont) you all need to send bitcoin to the second layer.

>Divorcing

Get lost. Nothing is being "divorced".

the reason of the price drop of iphone doesnt change the logic one bit, you fucking brainlet.
you can buy 1 iphone now, or 2 iphones in a year. keynesian cucks like you try to convince people that nobody would spend a deflationary currency (why buy a loath of bread now if I can buy 2 in a month?), but thats not how the actual world works

Let this post be a warning to all
The stupid normies are here
Crypto game is over - leave before the crash happens and all withdrawals are blocked!

You literally said
> Other coins have the same scaling problems as btc.
My answer was in the context of this.
Take your pills.

this works the same for every banking system, look at Greece, why the crisis? because ppl withdraw their funds at the same time and banks didn't have enough liquidities.
you're talking about a 300billion $ bubble, that's literally one drop in the ocean, i wonder why aren't you more concerned about things that can literally fuck our economy.

you mean like i'm selling a game and i'd rather like be paid in bitcoin? i don't get you m8

this will happen one day, but it has to grow a lot more, i mean a LOT more.

>Dinosaurcoin is going to die because it can't be used as a currency. It can't even be used as a "store of value" because you can't move around or withrdraw that "store of value" without spending 8% of it in transaction fees.

just look at what is happening, 3000 usd daily candle for bitcoin yesterday.

>It was a nice experiment that proved crypto is possible, but now it's time to move on. bubblecoin is like the Netscape of crypto. It's deprecated. It's legacycoin at this point. You're just buying it to sell it to someone else at a higher price. It has no use beyond tulips.

you're talking like we are hitting the bottom, yet it's ATH.

yeah i heard some stories like that, ppl buying cars and houses with bitcoin, seems more reasonable to me, not the greatest investment tho, anyway one day or another we need to cash out.

Yes, but you can actually use USD. It's a CURRENCY, much like Bitcoin, but it's actually useful as what it's designed for. It's not meant to be an investment. Why do you think the super rich aren't pumping money into Bitcoin? Because they have their money in actual investments that won't leave them broke. There is too much risk in Bitcoin. The people who "invest" in Bitcoin are just using it as some get rich quick scheme.

>Once a month you open a LN channel and transact funds there. You pay for everything offchain. At the end of the Month you close the channel. This means there will be 2 onchain transaction per person each month, so (amount of people)*2 transactions.

Therefore, you can double spend as long as you settle at the end of the month.

LN introduces fractional reserve into Bitcoin. And fractional reserve is the very thing Bitcoin was designed to eliminate.

If Bitcoin doesn't continue to rise in value, it dies. The only way it remains more profitable to mine over Bitcoin cash is if the price continues to go up. This is not sustainable. This is being artificially pumped until the futures market opens at which time there will be a valid enough excuse to say that the futures market killed bitcoin. not the Core developers, or people involved in Bitcoin the past year. Calling Bitcoin a store of value when it has little to no utility when compared to Bitcoin Cash...guys, when exchanges allow Bitcoin cash trading pairs it will be all over for Bitcoin. That is its only remaining utility. Good Luck.

>you can double spend
no you cant. you always spend REAL bitcoin. you never lose any control of your coins. nobody can run away with them. nobody can create coins. Read more about LN.

> Nothing is being "divorced".

What is the definition of a Bitcoin from the whitepaper?
What is the definition of a Segwit coin?
Is Segwit coin a Bicoin? Why?

It's not real bitcoin it's an IOU

> REAL bitcoin

See

Don't you see the difference? You don't need an iphone to live. You need food to live. People will use that deflationary currency IF they have to. They won't if they don't have to, which leads to hoarding, which leads to volatility, which leads to people being unsure in the currency.
>just look at what is happening, 3000 usd daily candle for bitcoin yesterday.
You're letting greed cloud your eyes. That $3000 upswing isn't a good thing. It's the sign of the bubble starting to burst.

what was the defined difficulty adjustment algorithm in the white paper?
what was the defined average block time in the white paper?
is bcash coin bitcoin? why?

The current price action of BCH makes no sense tp me.

BTC is at ATH and the network is barely functional. It's the ultimate vindication of BCH. While I don't expect it to approach parity or anything, I'm amazed there aren't more people buying right now when there's such a big gap in the price.

>if i bought a game on steam 2 days ago worth 40 bucks (0.0034btc), the same amount of btc would be 52 bucks today.''

What is the purpose of Bitcoin then? I couldn't give a fucking shit about what Bitcoin is used for as long as I'm making $$$, but what is the future of BTC then if it can't be used for anything?

yeah i thought the same as you when bitcoin hit 10k. but nah i cash out and i'm waiting for a good re-entry point, that might never come tho.
ok well i can agree with that, but i don't care about the last smartphone.

yeah in that case sure, but i'm not "all in" btc, that would be retarded, i cost average my fiat income in btc and hold. keep a small stack of fiat for food bills etc.

other crypto can potentially handle btc transaction in theory, but that nowhere close to be the case. the tech hasn't been test in real stress conditions.

Because bitcoins never been about functionality. Only serves as a ponzi scheme attracting retards.

Idiot here

Why is Bcash any better than Litecoin? Seems like a similar sales pitch

>the tech hasn't been test in real stress conditions
You don't know real stress conditions until a coin tries herding kitties

None of these are part of the definition. Read the fucking paper for once.

> We define an electronic coin as a chain of digital signatures. Each owner transfers the coin to the
next by digitally signing a hash of the previous transaction and the public key of the next owner
and adding these to the end of the coin. A payee can verify the signatures to verify the chain of ownership.

Does a Segwit coin have a "chain of ownership"? Why?

What happens if there is no "chain of ownership"? Why?

>but what is the future of BTC then if it can't be used for anything?
There isn't one.

people will use deflationary currency for the things they want, not just for the things they need. thats exactly what the iphone example show, you braindead mongoloid.
>You're letting greed cloud your eyes. That $3000 upswing isn't a good thing. It's the sign of the bubble starting to burst.
ffs, do you even know what percentages are? in the last week, bitcoin grew by ~65%. there were plenty of times where bitcoin grew over 100% in a week (may of this year for example). was that a sign of bubble bursting too?

BCash is the original Bitcoin with Blockstream's alterations removed and some constants tweaked.

It can handle more transactions. Litecoin is still just as limited as bitcoin. Litecoin has one dev and mainly just steals from blockstream.

>braindead faggots cant understand what segwit is
>bitches about btc not being bitcoin
yes, it is a chain of signatures, idiot.
>queue the bcashie "anyone-can-spend" dance

well for me, bitcoin is a medium to get wealthier if you don't have access to immense wealth yet, not a failed currency.

would you mind using your own brain for a change, and stop using ver's cheat sheet, thanks.

yet i stayed out of the market. this green dildo is a healthy sign that a lot of new money is coming in.

i couldn't agree more, about the first part.
the second part on the other hand, bitcoin might become a currency, or a mean of exchange or whatever you want to call it, when it has achieved it's growth (we gotta go higher than most of the major currency in term of mcap).

no

bitcoin updated to segwit to enable LN, so what?

Yes you're bitcoin stays on the first layer and you are granted LN bitcoin.

lmao, man fuck those kitties

bcash cucks arguing about tech politics when they realise their coin has no legitimacy and no purpose.

looks like ver's book chapter 2 paragraph 5 to me.

crush the competition, instead of making your product better, meh ver's book chapter 3 paragraph 6, try me user

Vers main argument is that the coin can be curtailed and destroyed if we cannot get everyone using it for every day things.

That's why Pro centralized hub core cucks are doing everything they can to promote currency that cannot be used for anything. They know Ver is 100% correct.

You guys are going to have to try SUPER fucking hard to promote the centralized lightning network hub that allows for black listing wallets and addition micro transactions to use the hub.

>people will use deflationary currency for the things they want, not just for the things they need. thats exactly what the iphone example show, you braindead mongoloid.
An iphone isn't a currency.
>well for me, bitcoin is a medium to get wealthier if you don't have access to immense wealth yet, not a failed currency.
Why is it a medium to get wealthier? Who buys Bitcoin and why? Why do people buy Bitcoin? Because it goes up in value! Why does Bitcoin go up in value? Because people keep buying it! If you think that is sustainable, think again.

Think about this. Why aren't the super rich buying into Bitcoin? Because they all have stocks and assets that aren't super risky that could make them broke next year. The people getting into Bitcoins are the greedy ones who use it as a get rich quick scheme.

>ad hom
Core is destroying itself. You need onchain scaling even with second layer solutions.

Bitcoin is not for poorfags. Bitcoin is for 21+ BTC barons to move millions. Use any shitcoin that suits your subhumanity.

I'd rather use bitshares than LN BTC. Less centralized in practice and still scales way higher than VISA.

UNTIL WE GET LN THEN I GET TO CHANGE MY ARGUMENT HAHAHAHAHA. It's still gonna cost over 100 to open a channel.

The super rich isn't using Bitcoin. They have better ways of moving money around discreetly. They're super rich because they make good financial decisions.

Most of the people who own 21+ bitcoin are early adopters. The same guys pumping this coin up so they can cash out and buy back in from the idiots buying into it right now.

When will you understand we don't need poorfags for BTC to be worth millions?

Not him but you are a fucking moron. If someone tells you to get informed, you do so instead of screeching like a Roger Ver to prove your ignorance.

because they don't give a shit about x100 ROI, 10% or 1% ROI for a billion dollar investment is fine to me too.

bitcoin's growth is far from done, 7years of predicted imminent death, 7 years of new ATH, nobody has ever seen that kind of gain before, and yet you still call that a ponzi, why so salty?

no

LOL

The SMART super rich are using BTC. The rest of super richs that still haven't caught up will, or they will lose their money. The era of off shore accounts is over.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Reporting_Standard

Only dying boomers and retarded oil pajeets will not be on the capital B blockchain. The future of high finance will all be on there.

>You guys are going to have to try SUPER fucking hard to promote the centralized lightning network hub that allows for black listing wallets and addition micro transactions to use the hub.

LN probably won't even be able to resolve the kind of congestion we're seeing today.

It would ease the load in a theoretical scenario where people are using BTC to buy coffee and groceries, but on chain transactions will still be necessary and numerous if BTC continues to grow.

LN is really a separate payment system entirely and bears no resemblance to anything in the whitepaper.