Alright Veeky Forums I like big ass monsters...

Interesting.

Fair points. I've done the latter, treating them as environmental challenges with stabbing in the past. The issue is, it still isn't that great, either.

I remember hearing about an rpg that was heavily influenced by whaling for it's giant monster slaying. At least i think I dead, at this point I may have just imagined it. I have been tempted to read up on whaling though.

But mechanics and narration aren't all together separate. Or at least shouldn't be. Like your example doesn't feel like giant monster fighting though. It's just bigger numbers. I get what you mean though. I've made mobs into swarms in the past much to the same effect.

Meant to link to not myself. Whoops.

Have them deal with it in a non-typical way. Say there's a collosal collosus, if they swing at the toe have it not do too much, but have them manuver around and over it and try to get to the things head or something. Have it be different, being the DM is all about presenting a situation and choices and simulating the results of the choice your party decided on.

Looks like the next villain in One Punch man.

Oh yeah, tend to do that for the miniaturized version of the environmental option. You know for when the giant is only like 20ft tall and not the size of a small town.

Though if they hack at the shins eventually the monster will be forced to take a knee and thus make it's squishy bits a little more reachable/vulnerable (also because sometimes players can't take a hint). With varying results depending on the number of legs the thing has.

Damn I can't click on the right posts for shit.

>It's not in the mechanics, it's in the narration.

Basically this. In D&D, big monsters usually just have high HP and deal to lot of damage, but if you understand how to play them right, they can feel genuinely huge.

My favorite example is the T-rex. Statistically, it has nothing special about it except that it hits really hard and can take quite a beating, but that's exactly what makes it feel big because players do not want to try and go toe-to-toe with that kind of monster. They need to scurry around it, using the terrain to avoid direct confrontations as much as possible, and if a player is unlucky enough to get caught by it, they're gonna feel like they got hit by a dump truck.

That's wayne barlowe you uncultured swine

That's not big, that's tough. The experience is little different than fighting a single humanoid with a fuckton of health/damage

When you're dodging into alleys, diving into wells, doing your best to squeeze through spaces it can't, it's quite different.

And, once again, it's mostly about narration. A single humanoid may, potentially, deal a lot of damage, but a T-Rex does it all in a single bite, and that can be quite scary if done right.

I will also agree. If I am running a BAM, basically run i as a landscape. It's not a creature you can fight. It's a hill side about to fall on you.

>A single humanoid may, potentially, deal a lot of damage, but a T-Rex does it all in a single bite
It's just numbers. No reason the half-orc demigod berserker can't deal a lot all with a single hit

>It's just numbers.

You sound like a bad GM, and I think the fundamental problem you have isn't that the mechanics don't support your ideas, but you just really can't wrap your head around the importance of narration, regardless of how often people will repeat that answer to you.

Yes, a berserker can hit like a T-Rex. But that's the berserker feeling huge, rather than the T-Rex feeling small.

Rolling the dice do affect people's perception of what they're doing though. Narration is important don't get me wrong, but when the mechanics are completely divorced from it, it can fall flat.

Keep in mind that d&d is also a very specific type of game with a very distinct feel to it. Especially in regards to the power level of the players and the worlds they inhabit.

For example the t-rex example I can see going horrifically if say a group of 20 people tried to kill it instead of a group of 4 that are all the protagonists of their own heroic epic. And yes it should go horribly. I'm talking in terms of the feel of the combat not the expected narration of the slaughter.

If narration fully trumped mechanics nobody would be able to legitimately complain that X combat system is boring. Or that Y system boils do to just repeating the same old thing due to lack of options. Hell if narration was all that mattered why do we have so many different systems with so many different feels and so many different dice mechanics? Because narration is half the puzzle I'd wager.

>but when the mechanics are completely divorced from it, it can fall flat.

Good thing they're not.
Hitting big is probably the most important part of feeling big, and that's exactly what they feel like.

You are absolutely in the smallest possible acceptable margin of the term, technically correct. Still doesn't change the fact that nothing special is happening. And fighting something several times your size should be a special occasion.

Why do you think so many people seem to be taking the environmental approach if their only issue is in the description? And I just want you to think about that. Because I'd very much like to talk about system to handle fighting giant monsters not argue with you.

You can make a fighter in that system who can hit as big as the t-rex, but that doesn't suddenly turn him into Godzilla. Hitting big is just part of it.

A "proper" rendition of a t-rex would get to grapple/throw you with each bit it does, tail-sweep in a huge area, overrun enemies (probably multiple ones) as part of its movement, etc.

>Still doesn't change the fact that nothing special is happening.

If you don't want to argue, then don't posit "facts" that are not true.

Compared to other monsters of its challenge, the T-rex doesn't just hit hard, it hits VERY hard. It is ultimately designed without any frills or secondary abilities or even rudimentary intelligence, and is instead a monster that is almost elegant in its simplicity.

Something special does happen. When fighting against little monsters that deal far less damage, the players feel something else. They recognize the damage comes in smaller doses, and they can fight using standard tactics. But, against a T-rex, they're forced to realize that an ordinary hit deals as much as most creature's criticals, and a single criticial from it could reverse the tide of the entire battle. They are strongly encouraged not to fight it in a reckless manner, and optimally doing their best to avoid being hit by even one of its attacks.

Same goes with similar "large" monsters, like the elephant. When one is in the room, you can't ignore it. It calls attention because even a single mistep could potentially be fatal.

Of course, this is a gross oversimplification. In D&D, large monsters have a number of other considerations that make them feel mechanically large depending on how they're interacted with (resistance or immunity to being pushed or grappled with heavy bonuses to pushing and grappling, space and movement concerns, etc.), but at the core, all you really need to make a monster feel big is big damage, big HP, and some good descriptions.

That's basically the 5e T-rex, but instead of a tail-sweep, it gets an extra tail attack against an opponent it did not use its bite attack against.

What I'm saying is that the ability of a thing to hit hard or eat damage does not contribute to one's perception of it's size. It's maneuverability, the physical space it occupies and the ways those things alter a player's usual combat tactics are what give a sense of differing size. Just hitting hard doesn't mean much

>What I'm saying is that the ability of a thing to hit hard or eat damage does not contribute to one's perception of it's size

And you're wrong.
It's not the end-all-be-all, but yes, it is an important facet of making a creature feel "big".

Small creatures can occasionally deal a lot of damage, but the hallmark of a big creature is that if it hits you, you are going to feel it.

You are arguing about something's threat level. Threat level is not unique to large creatures and can (and should) be applied to any foe meant to pose a challenge. OP wants things that give a sense of scale, not danger. The methods for communicating either have some overlap, but still differ. The T-Rex doesn't have to hit hard to seem big. When it covers half your movement with one step, that makes it seem big. When you have to roll a check to keep your balance because it fell prone and shook the ground, that makes it seem big. When you have to pull out your longsword just to parry a blow from one of it's clawed toes, that makes it seem big. None of that has to do with hp or damage.

RuneQuest literally his a Size stat. A human can only possibly have a SIZ of 18, but a dragon is on average a SIZ 51.

SIZ has a bunch of effects: more HP, longer reach, unstoppable attacks, etc. I found it very easy to make a ridiculously big creature that became terrain but also had a legitimate stat block that made it "killable" in multiple improbable ways in addition to the narative I was trying to present.

>Threat level is not unique

It's the type of threat. Creatures of a similar threat level are dangerous for other reasons. They might have magic, more attacks, better maneuverability, special defenses, illusions and trickery, and a myriad of other possibilities. Hell, the T-rex doesn't even have any ranged attacks.

But, a T-rex hits really, really hard. Not just "owie, this guy isn't holding back, he really means to hurt us!" hard, but "HOLY PELOR, THERE GOES MORE THAN HALF MY HP IN ONE HIT, WE CAN'T FIGHT THIS THING."

I don't think you've ever encountered a T-rex in a game. All that superfluous stuff about parry a toe with a longsword? None of that matters in comparison to how hard the T-Rex hits you.

Could you imagine this giant lizard covering your movement with one step, making you roll to keep your balance, etc. etc., and then nipping you for 2-4 points of damage? It would be almost embarrassing, like you would feel sorry for the T-rex.

>Hey what systems handle this scenario in a neat and interesting way?
>Just play d&d. If you disagree it's because your imagination is shit and you don't understand how to have fun.

Gee fucking thanks, bud. You have an example of say a giant monster without big teeth and a blatant and distinguishing source of raw numbers? You going to just tell me to add X quality to it or give it Y power like the half assed patch work substitutes that they are?

I can paint the prettiest fucking picture down to the smell of the paint and the texture of each and every stroke, but that doesn't change jack fucking all when the next words are "I move here, and swing sword" Or "I move here and swing spell". Followed by "It's numbers go slightly down, but it still has many more where that came from clever boy". It bites you now, oh look at that you are dead now because of it's HUGE numbers". Where's the action? Where's the spectacle? Where's my mob of 20 hunters desperately trying to get this thing's leg secured to an anchor so phil can get a clear shot at it's eye? Because while yes that will just make it angry, we really need to limit it's peripheral vision so the chasers can better make an opening.

Where the fuck is even a fraction of that in your big numbers BIGGER DESCRIPTION?

>Creatures of a similar threat level are dangerous for other reasons.

Or for the same reasons. Damage is not a T-rex exclusive thing FFS.

My point was anything can take half your hp in one hit. Hitting hard is not unique to big things, it's unique to things the GM wants you to be afraid of.

>You sound like a bad GM, and I think the fundamental problem you have isn't that the mechanics don't support your ideas, but you just really can't wrap your head around the importance of narration, regardless of how often people will repeat that answer to you.
Oh the irony

"Unique" and "exclusive" don't matter. That's what you're getting hung up about, when you really should just worry about trends and general feel.

Small and light opponents have multiple attacks that deal less damage in comparison to larger opponents that have fewer attacks that deal more damage. It's not a hard rule, but it's something so intuitive that when something bucks this trend it comes as a surprise or is treated as a special exception.

If a small guy can hit as hard as a T-rex bites, people don't just say "Oh, that's normal and not special at all."

>Small and light opponents have multiple attacks that deal less damage
Why? Why wouldn't the small and light assassin seek to pack as much into a single killing strike as possible, ala rogue sneak attack/assassin death strike/any other single hit massive damage mechanic that's been thought up over the decades? You're hung up on the most flexible element of the mechanics. How hard and how often a thing hits is not something locked into a creature's size category. They're narratively supplemental to actual effects that change how you can even physically fight a thing

With the right options selected, GURPS can do differences in scale pretty well (at least human vs. giant scale, possibly not so great with bug vs. human).

Your Size Modifier makes a major difference in terms of how likely you are to hit, positioning (and therefore how big you are on the hex map and how much reach you have) can be very significant with the right rules in play, things like what body parts you can grapple or bite are highly dependent on relative size (and make a huge difference; being able to fit your opponents whole head in your mouth and chew on his neck is much better than ripping chunks out of his arm).

BRP-based systems have size as a base-stat too, although I've never run a combat with a large monster so I'm not sure how well it actually works in practise.

>any other single hit massive damage mechanic that's been thought up over the decades?

Oh, you mean a SPECIAL ability?
Something that BUCKS the trend, and is treated like a SPECIAL EXCEPTION?

As a fair warning, if you're going to make me repeat myself, I'm going to do it with greater exaggeration at each iteration.

I pity anyone who would have to play with you as GM

I have. I was a low level druid. I jogged faster than the sole party member that opted to solo it. I didn't run because it felt big. It didn't. It felt like we found ourselves up against something significantly more numbers than us (now don't you go trying to turn this into an appropriate encounter for your level argument now. because I'm one of those coots that thinks sometimes the players should be under or over powered sometimes). So we ran. Except for B. But that's because B doesn't give a fuck. It followed when it was done with him. I turned a cliff side into sand and it plummeted to its untimely death. Because gravity is the biggest numbers of them all.

D&d has it's place. This isn't it. Stop trying to desperately pretend it is. The only thing you're doing to making me think you're deluded.

Hell to answer my own question. The second 20 people shows up in a d&d game in general the answer before the monster is even involved is a bookkeeping nightmare. How are your descriptions going to hold up when you said them 40 minutes ago and we're halfway through turn 1? That still going to "feel big"?

Alas I couldn't get my group to try gurps. Mostly because the book is massive and aside from the aforementioned doesn't give a fuck B nobody wanted to have to familiarize themselves with that much to get a one off going.

>As a fair warning, if you're going to make me repeat myself, I'm going to do it with greater exaggeration at each iteration.
You've been repeating the same unhelpful and completely besides the point thing this entire thread, why even consider not being a cunt now?

I vaguely remember the Call of Cthulhu D20 book having a load of these with decent illustrations, haven't looked at it in a while though.

I assumed the capitalisation of BUCKS was gonna lead into a load of horse related puns.

GURPS grappling rules also allow for pretty easy "climb on giants" mechanics, if you assume the giant for some reason won't try to shake you off (numbness and/or special equipment might help with that).

As long as the giant doesn't throw you off, initiating a grapple (especially on its back) is beneficial to you since
>He can't use his superior move to run away from you
>He has to use inaccurate wild swings at you
>you get free shots at his back and there's nothing he can do about it

Moving around after initiating a grapple can either be accomplished by some creative interpretation of the "shift grip" rules in GURPS Martial Arts, or you can make your own system using the climbing skill I guess.

...

>D&d has it's place. This isn't it.

I had a feeling this was the root of your problem.

You don't understand a system, so instead of trying to wrap your head around really basic things, you perform mental gymnastics to try and figure out how your stupidity is right and common sense is wrong.

So, instead of a really basic and intuitive way of making things "feel big", you're going to try and throw heaps of clunky and unnecessary mechanics around to try and simulate something that can be done pretty easily enough without them.

You're arguing against at least two people. Nobody here has agreed with you

...

And?

Two idiots don't really make much of a difference between one and three, or even ten idiots, and if you're having a hard time making monsters feel big, I'm pretty sure you need to be a special kind of idiot considering that it's hardly a challenge for anyone with even a basic understanding of how to run a game.

I think Combat Writ Large formalizes the rules for climbing on huge monsters.

As for shaking off, I would use the Last Gasp rules for short-term fatigue for that monster. They can only shake a dude off for so long before having to take a breather, and a lot of giant things would realistically have HT under 10, meaning they have to take longer breaks more often.

First post system. That. Handles. In. Interesting way.

Your only response. D&d. For the SOLE reason that the gm and all players (because if so much as one fucking player not being your kind of delusional means this breaks apart entirely) in the table are capable of mental gymnastics in order to make BIG NUMBERS BIG FUN anything more than just big numbers.

You've also ignored every single counter point, and every single example that shifts things to a completely different situations where said mechanic wouldn't even make sense.

Anyway I've lost interest in continuing to search through my folders for more pictures of big things and that's kind of been my modus operandi. I'll be back in a day when I can pick through the husk of any continuing discussion.

Thanks everyone but the guy I'm directly responding to for your thoughts and time.

There's also technically speaking an action economy to shaking off a small pesky human on your back.

If you are busy shakin' it, you aren't punchin' it.

>Your only response. D&d. For the SOLE reason that the gm and all players (because if so much as one fucking player not being your kind of delusional means this breaks apart entirely) in the table are capable of mental gymnastics in order to make BIG NUMBERS BIG FUN anything more than just big numbers.

Why must you make me repeat myself?

The big numbers feel different. They evoke different responses, and force different tactics. They're not just arbitrary values like you seem to believe.

And, as far as your "counterpoints," none of them have managed to explain why big monsters hitting big isn't important.

Hell, this isn't even about D&D. D&D has a number of minor subsystems at play that help make fighting big monsters feel like big monsters, but most of these end up falling to the background because the easiest, most reliable, most intuitive way of making something feel big is to make it hit hard and be able to take big hits.

That makes them feel big. Don't agree? Then that's your personal mental handicap, because this is something even small children can intuitively understand.

>You don't understand a system

"Give it bigger numbers" is not hard to understand.

A T-Rex does not feel big. Fighting a T-Rex and fighting a high-level npc with the Commoner class feels identical.

>The big numbers feel different. They evoke different responses, and force different tactics. They're not just arbitrary values like you seem to believe.

Big number X on a T-Rex feel identical X on a medium-sized level 40 npc with the commoner class feel identical to X on the Orc Champion.

>That makes them feel big. Don't agree?

ITT: High-level medium sized commoners feel like they're size category Colossal.

>They evoke different responses, and force different tactics.

Okay. How does fighting a T-rex that does ~50 damage on a charge, and a barbarian who does ~50 damage on a charge, and has comparable hp and defenses differ?

Both boils down to "charge and attack". Both has high hp, but low defenses.

How do you change your strategy?

That commoner would have to be very, very high level in order to dish out the same amount of damage in a single attack, and to have anywhere near the amount of HP. And still, they would fight differently and feel differently because of the different ratios of their abilities.

I'd show you the math, but you're just making stupid statements when you should already know better.

>That commoner would have to be very, very high level in order to dish out the same amount of damage in a single attack, and to have anywhere near the amount of HP. And still, they would fight differently and feel differently because of the different ratios of their abilities.

Yes, the commoner is whatever arbitrary high level will make the example work.

>different

OP didn't ask about different. OP asked about big. How does the T-Rex feel BIG in a way that the identical-stat medium-sized commoner does not?

Aw shit. It just dawned on me.

That dismissive attitude.

That lack of reasoning beyond repeating your statements.

It's you.

You're Richard Petty (also suspected to be virt).

The jigs up, you can continue trolling the DW thread.

>The problem with doing that in an RPG is that once you segment it, it doesn't really feel like one big monster anymore, but smaller several ones.
Instead of segmenting it, just make it one big thing that's only vulnerable at certain points. In 5e terms, it might look something like:
>When the creature takes damage anywhere but a Weak Point, the result of any damage dice rolled are treated as 1 and the damage is halved.
>Attack rolls against the Weak Point have disadvantage if made from more than 5 feet away.
And you have to make Strength (Athletics) checks to climb it, and if it moves you have to make a Strength saving throw to stay on.

And if you're playing a different game you can port the same basic idea to its mechanics.

Because the T-rex isn't level 40.

This shouldn't be so hard for you guys to understand.

When you encounter the T-Rex, it's ratio of damage and HP comparative to its level is considerably higher than you would encounter with other monsters.

But really, this is getting silly.

Imagine a gnome. He has the ability to take big leaps (large strides), and each step he takes makes the ground quake, and he's magically attuned to the earth so he can't be pushed, and he can telekinetically lift and throw people around. He can also attack large areas with earthquakes, and all that other jazz.

Mechanically, identical to a wide list of suggestions for making a monster "feel big", but he's just a little gnome. Just like you can theoretically transplant "high damage, High HP" to a smaller creature, you can transplant just about any mechanical suggestion to a smaller creature. Hell, give him a 20ft radius force-field that the players can climb on if you feel so inclined.

Overall though, the key thing to wrap your head around is that compared to other monsters of similar rating, the T-Rex feels big because it's talents are skewed towards High Damage and High HP. A much higher level smaller creature may end up being roughly comparable, but at the same high level the T-Rex would feel only bigger.

You are a sad and terrible person

True enough, though tough monsters with DR could probably survive mutliple rounds of AOA: Double to do both.

I was also imagining something like a Monster Hunter scenario where climbers have to juggle maintaining their grip vs actually doing something to the monster: while the monster's shakin', you ain't stabbin'.

>Because the T-rex isn't level 40.

Neither is the peasant. We're using a system with very balanced rules, after all, so the identical-stats peasant has the same threat level as the T-Rex.

Same threat level, but different stats. Different strengths.

Are you... stupid? How many times can something like this need to be explained?

>Same threat level, but different stats. Different strengths.

Your common npc has: Attack, damage, hp

Your common t-rex has: Attack, damage, hp

So if they're the same threat level, they'll have about the same stats.

So, you are stupid.

Thanks. This is all I really needed. A quick, simple, easy, poignant, and indefensible display of just how stupid you are.

Do you really think those are the only three stats they have? Hell, that even with just those three stats, that the number and types of attacks don't differ?

Is there even a point in repeating "Same threat level, but different stats. Different strengths"? Or is that really beyond your understanding?

Have I really been arguing with a moron of this caliber?
If you don't even have a basic understanding of what's being discussed, why are you here? To drop the amazing bit of wisdom that "If you arbitrarily assign identical mechanics to two creatures, they will feel mechanically identical"?

Hell, we're not even discussing any system anymore, because D&D includes things like space, reach, size, and so on and so forth, and somehow you're still trying to argue that "big damage doesn't make a creature feel bigger."

He's specifically saying he won't be happy unless there's an additional subsystem for handling giant monster fights distinct from regular combat or else he's gonna hold his breath until he turns blue and dies.

>Hell, we're not even discussing any system anymore, because D&D includes things like space, reach, size, and so on and so forth, and somehow you're still trying to argue that "big damage doesn't make a creature feel bigger."

Damage does not confer information about size. Medium-sized peasants can deal big damage if they have Power Attack and enough levels.

>reach
Yes D&D includes reach, yes that makes a creature feel big.

Maybe if your first post had been "give it reach" instead of
> a T-rex hits really, really hard
I'd have taken you seriously, but "can hit hard" was what you posted so "can hit hard" was what I engaged with.

>Damage does not confer information about size.

For the last time, yes. Yes it does.
Larger weapons deal more damage. Bigger monsters deal more damage. It's almost impossible to find a large monster that deals less than 1d4 damage. There is a direct correlation between size and increased damage.

Just because a small creature CAN deal more damage through alternate methods doesn't mean that there's no relation between size and damage, ESPECIALLY if a small creature has to OBTAIN A CONSIDERABLE NUMBER OF LEVELS in order to COMPARE TO A LARGE CREATURE in DAMAGE. I'm NOT even SURE why I'm capitalizing, BUT I DID PROMISE THAT IF I HAD TO REPEAT MYSELF, I WOULD DO SO WITH INCREASING EXAGGERATION.

Please, just stop for a minute, and stop being stupid.
Damage is a complex abstraction, and while size is not the entirety of the equation, it does play a part, and larger creatures do feel bigger because they do hit harder. This isn't some new or surprising information, but something that's been an aspect of just about every single roleplaying game since the start of roleplaying games.

Here's what I mean, as opposed to segmenting the monster. It requires you to go outside the normal bounds of the system quite a bit, but if you're already homebrewing...

I already realize I might have accidentally referred to it as a "colossus" at a couple points.

You are really starting to sound like a cunt. Players aren't always going to know, and shouldn't always know when a special ability is involved. You wouldn't announce to the player "The doppelganger assassin only does 4 damage to you, but his sneak attack and magic dagger does an additional 33!"

...why in the name of all that is unholy and dark am I the only one who noticed that crazy shit right there?

>Players aren't always going to know, and shouldn't always know when a special ability is involved.

Actually, for the most part, yes. They should know, or at least be able to make a good guess.

Aside from abilities that interact with sneak attacks (including immunities), an appropriate description is necessary if the players are being hit for an extraordinary amount of damage, because it's not fair to subject them to something they could potentially avoid or that might alter their strategy.

If you have a dire hippo smashing someone for 40 damage as base damage and a pixie rogue striking someone for 40 damage due to them flanking with the hippo and getting sneak attack damage, this needs to be somehow communicated so that the players don't simply sit still and assume that the pixie is dealing 40 base damage.