Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Arthas was objectively right. Everyone was already dead, the only variable was how many soldiers Mal'Ganis got.

We know this now, but you're looking at it with hindsight. Jaina had no way of knowing that the plague was totally incurable. To her point of view, Arthas was leaping to the most direct and most brutal solution without trying any alternatives.

She's the hero the Alliance deserves. And with Genn in charge, they should actually take down the horde like it deserves.
Of course, Kosak's waifu has too much fucking plot armor and is fucking warchief.

>Naaru
>creatures of light

How would that lead to more nature worship?

>Jaina
>Possible of doing anything after she was kicked out of Dalaran

Has Kosak done anything good?

He ruined the Horde, ruined Sylvanas, killed Cairne, turned Varian into a blue warchief, made Varian a generic good guy king instead of the angry asshole he was, got rid of Theramore, ruined Jaina, ruined the entire concept of the dragon aspects, is responsible for pretty much all of the "green jesus" bullshit, still hasn't let us kill Azshara and is responsible for many, many more problems with the lore

I have a feeling Azshara is going to hijack this expansion after the first tier.

I think he meant naaru influence was the whole reason humans started worshipping the light so remove the naaru and humans would probably worship nature

I think it was meant to be a reply to "why did humans start worshipping the light anyway" but he clicked the wrong post

>implying Varian didn't just grow up

All the other complaints are valid, though.

She should have turned out like this a lot sooner.

Arcane magic is corruptive. It breeds pride and arrogance. It's an addictive gateway drug, and if you take too much you end up with demons.

How Jaina stayed so bubbly for so long is a complete mystery.

>grow up
>7y/o varian sees the horde nearly destroy the alliance, kill his dad and bring the eastern kingdoms to it's knees
>doesn't destroy the horde
>old ass varian sees the horde nearly destroy the alliance, bring pandaria to it's knees, and nearly loses his son
>doesn't destroy the horde, again

he was chronically retarded.

>How Jaina stayed so bubbly for so long is a complete mystery.
because she's human and humans can't be evil
-Kosak

>who are half of the Cathedral of Light NPCs being Twilight cultists

nah, kosak turns people randomly evil if they are near his waifu.
>arcane magic is corruptive
to elves, not to humans. Humans don't turn cray cray when using arcane magic.

threadly reminder that silithids are amphibious and can live indefinitely underwater

...

>made Varian a generic good guy king instead of the angry asshole he was
Angry Varian was a fucking idiot, though, and unlike most Warcraft characters, he actually went through a character arc to become more level-headed.

>ruined Jaina
Zealous Jaina is awesome, though. Also, like Varian, her change in outlook is pretty logical after everything that's happened to her. I don't just mean the destruction of Theramore; for years, she kept campaigning for peace between the Alliance and the Horde, and no one was listening to her except Anduin (I don't have it with me, but that "How Jaina Proudmoore Became a Sith Lord" comic summarizes it perfectly). Jaina finally snapping makes sense, particularly with Theramore's destruction (you know, just about everything she's ever loved, plus a symbol of everything she's worked for) acting as the final straw.

If her character had stayed as the bleeding heart all this time, it would've gotten old. Especially if the writing with the Horde and Alliance constantly having on-and-off wars. Jaina whining about it would've become tedious AND pointless.

>got rid of Theramore
I miss Theramore too, and I would normally prefer it not be destroyed, but its destruction DID have a point in the story. Besides, what would be the point of plot progression if some things didn't change? The world would be as stagnant and sterile as SWTOR.

I agree with you on the rest of your points, but some of your arguments have more to do with you not liking that some things are different, instead of actual criticisms.

when Thousand Needles flooded, everything drowned except for the silithids that are now sitting on the bottom of the ocean

Varian in Wrath was exactly what WoW needed, an aggressive leader, one who didn't just accept conflict, but wanted it.

Then Cataclysm came, and Kosak was all like "What? Human's can't be aggressive, don't be stupid, only orcs can be the aggressors" So he made Garrosh the warchief so the Horde could have the Varian character instead of the Alliance, and made Varian want peace instead.

Eventually, he figured out that this was a bit stupid, so he turned Jaina into Varian too

So for most of MoP, we had two Varians, neither of whom were actually Varian. Now we have one Varian, but it's still not actually Varian

I consider the bombing of Theramore to be the single most stupid part of WoW lore.

Forget all the Chronicles bullshit, forget Garrosh becoming warchief in the first place, or Gallywix remaining as the head of the Bilgewater cartel instead of having his fat face mashed in, forget the fat lot of nothing that has happened with the dwarves following the introduction of the least stable leadership ever.

The bombing of Theramore was the final nail in the coffin for the possibility of WoW have interesting and meaningful conflict. There is no way around it. Horde = bad guys, Alliance = good guys. No depth, no thought, just Horde bad Alliance good.

Also, Jaina herself, pre-bombing Jaina was great, the most solid voice for peace in the setting, someone who would turn on her own family for the sake of peace.

I will never forgive Kosak for proving her father right

>So for most of MoP, we had two Varians, neither of whom were actually Varian. Now we have one Varian, but it's still not actually Varian
World of Variancraft when

Arcane magic isn't corruptive in the same sense fel is. Most mages don't spontaneously turn evil and become raidbosses.
However, some mages get addicted to the rush of power you get by wielding it, and start looking for ways to get more and more power, which likely eventually leads them to fel magic.

Jaine has generally seemed pretty levelheaded, and not the type who pursues power for its own sake at the risk of her mind and soul.

>People legit arguing that Jaina is right.

The Horde is necessary because they are a very good united fighting force that will without question always side WITH the Alliance against a threat than against the Alliance.

Let's say varian following Queen Stupidity's advice, Dismantles the Horde.

No more Horde Warmachine.... What do the Races of the Horde do now?

The Orcs were in dire straights because the lack of resources in Durotar AND it suddenly got flooded so it became half desert have dusty quagmire.

The Bonds of kinship between the Tauren, Trolls and Orcs was huge. so what exactly do you do?

Put three entire races into camps, cost the Alliance so much resources as to be unfeasible and weaken yourself so the Legion returns and fucks you over?

user here. is right, it was supposed to be response to but I clicked on a wrong post

Horde is problem precisely because they are trying to stay together. They are trying to keep high population density city in an area where something like that is unsustainable. Smaller, spread out tribes would be able to use the available resources better. Orcs would have to relearn the ways of life from Draenor, but both tauren and trolls would help them with survival skills. They would be more vulnerable to outside threats, true, but the "threat" that kept the Horde together was the Alliance.. and that was because they felt threatened by the Horde.

I'm pretty sure Alliance would be friendlier to the Horde if the later stopped being a military threat. In addition... belves were about to join the Alliance in MoP, tauren and nelves got along just fine, goblins don't care who they deal with as long as they get the money, trolls propably could get a truce (seeing as they rebelled against Garrosh in the first place), pandas already are with the Alliance and now have access to their ancestral homeland and screw Forsaken, they are assholes hated by their own allies. Orcs are the aggressors, and if they are divided in smaller tribes, troublemakers would lack power to start another big war, or would be weak enough to be more more easily dealt with by those who don't like their shit.

In case of a larger threat like the Legion, everyone would join against a common enemy (just like now), only it would be more effective, because they won't waste strenght fighting against each other too.

>divide the orcs into small tribes
>In the Barrens of all places, forcing EVEN MORE encroachment into Night Elven land

Think about it for two seconds. Where would the Orcs go if they were split up?

Stonetalon, Ashenvale, Feralas. Night Elven territories.

>What do the Races of the Horde do now?
Did I hear free bodies?
Because I think someone said free bodies.

>Attack the Horde
>Horde attacks back.
>wtf Jaina did nothing wrong.

K.

Redpill me on the Ebon Blades involvement in Legion

they're protecting Azeroth from the Legion, don't worry about it goy

>horde legitimately fucks off and goes to the other side of the world
>helps defeat the burning legion
>starts trying to create a nation from nothing
>daelin proudmoore steps in and starts flinging shit for no reason, getting his ass killed in the process

DAELIN WAS RIGHT, HE A GOOD BOY, HE DINDU NUFFIN

>a massive invasion force pours out of theramore and starts building a goddamn road right through horde territory
>theramore, a completely valid military target, gets nuked

JAINA WAS RIGHT, SHE A GOOD GIRL, SHE DINDU NUFFIN

Get a cool idea to start recruiting again while also trying to help Bolvar stay sane (And NOT have to unleash the scourge he can barely control as cannon-fodder against the legion)

Then they get a little over-enthusiastic about recruiting badasses and Morgraine proposes raising Tirion starting a skirmish in the paladin class hall that they lose.

Bolvar is also really losing it with schizoid episodes where he suggests punishing souls that escaped Frostmourne both because they rejected the Light AND because they held onto it.

>>a massive invasion force pours out of theramore and starts building a goddamn road right through horde territory
The roaditself wasn't in Horde Territory, it was used to connect to the barrens and once Garrosh chimped out and started praising the people that killed those druids then restarting the Warsong Lumber camp on a massive scale it ended up being a route used by the alliance military to open a second front.

It COULD have been a trade route if people hadn't been cunts about it.

But Kosak demands Red vs Blu.

>>theramore, a completely valid military target, gets nuked
b-but muh civilians
-General Hawthrone while picking his teeth with the bones of tauren civilians

That's the problem with the WoW. There's a lot more orc that there should be (for no obvious reason, other that the Blizzard couldn't show how tiny the Horde is comparable to the Alliance), even if you include immigrants from Outland (and Old Horde was mostly made from male warriors, not whole tribes, they should have insanely skewed male/female ratio, meaning the numbers would get even smaller after Thrall's original group starts dying from the old age and their reproduction would be slower than what pure numbers suggests), and ingame lands are tiny. Barrens should be huge, hundreds of kilometers across (even with the post-Cata divide). And smaller tribes would be more tolerable.

They could also spread out through the world: pandaren wouldn't mind orcs settling in Pandaria, if they stay peaceful, parts of Northrend are tolerable living space, and nobody cares about it, even some settlements in neutral areas of Eastern Kingdoms (like Swamp of Sorrows and Stranglethorn) could propably stay, if they stop representing strongholds of a much more powerful hostile faction

they are true heroes.

>start a war with the alliance
>"why are they attacking me?"

>bolvar
>schizo

Come with me citizen

Of course, if we take the Horde as being as small as it should be, nothing in Cataclysm makes any sense at all. Because the conflict is borne from a lack of resources (which small numbers wouldn't consume) and is led by the orcish war machine (which should never be able to match the human or dwarven war machine, so the conflict should have ended in seconds)

Well, near as we can tell, the road was constructed as a preemptive strike against the Horde, given that Theramore's forces hit the Crossroads, Taurajo and Honor Hold before the Cataclysm.

So it wasn't Jaina opening a second front, so much as opening the -first- front.

Which is fine. Blizzard's got to have their red vs blue, and all that. It's just funny how people will then take the Horde defending itself against a clear aggressor as a sign Daelin was right, when the Horde killing Daelin was also an example of defending against a clear aggressor.

>start a war with the horde
>"why are they attacking me?"

t. daelin proudmoore

>Daelin attacks the Horde
>they defend themselves
>FUCKING SAVAGES I KNEW THEY'D NEVER CHANGE

The Ebon blade was giving him therapy though, which is nice.

Sword therapy still counts right?

>Well, near as we can tell, the road was constructed as a preemptive strike against the Horde, given that Theramore's forces hit the Crossroads, Taurajo and Honor Hold before the Cataclysm.
>So it wasn't Jaina opening a second front, so much as opening the -first- front.
But after he started sending demolisher battalions into Ashenvale. Most of the initial blows of the war happened roughly the same time as the Shattering book during the pre-shocks of the cataclysm itself.

Scourge is the ultimate redpill.

Just drink the plague nigga.

>And NOT have to unleash the scourge he can barely control as cannon-fodder against the legion

That's a nice case of Blizzard stupidity. Why is there still Scourge in the first place? Bolvar could order them to destroy each other or jump into nearest volcano. Even if he had no control over them other than to keep them doing nothing, why didn't the Alliance and the Horde used the inactive undead as target practice?

Why did everyone suddenly forgot there's still a huge undead army? If Tirion somehow kept new Lich King's existence a secret, everyone involved should know the undead still exists, and they had no idea they could use them against other threats (like Legion) who weren't very active at the moment. For all everyone knew, some escaped lich, necromancer or whoever could take control of them and start wrecking shit again.

>But after he started sending demolisher battalions into Ashenvale. Most of the initial blows of the war happened roughly the same time as the Shattering book during the pre-shocks of the cataclysm itself.
Didn't Wolfheart happen after the Cataclysm, though? It's got Worgen and Goblins involved, so it had to have taken place after the Cataclysm, and before questing.

Which would put the timeline as Post Lich King truce > Shattering book > Theramore invasion of the Barrens > Shattering event > Wolfheart invasion of Ashenvale > Cataclysm expansion.

Wolfheart happened after the Cataclysm, yes. Theramore had already invaded the Barrens prior to Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale.

>Get a cool idea to start recruiting again
I thought they, like everyone else, hated being Undead, but unlike the Forsaken were moral enough not to make more Undead?

To be fair, at the time of his invasion Proudmoore was wrong.
It took some absurdly bad writers to make him right.

How the balls DID Thrall ever allow the Forsaken?

'No necromancy' was literally his #2 rule when he made the new Horde. #1 being 'No demonology'

I'm fairly certain Garrosh started redoubling Horde presence in Nightelf lands first, he sorta started right towards the end of the Shattering though perhaps not a FULL invasion

And at the very least refused to investigate and outright praised the execution of diplomats which is sorta Casus Beli.

They only raise a small handful with their minds and it DOES seem optional and isn't being used for particularly selfish reasons, the rest are soulless automatons same as any of the DK spells.

Mostlygthey rise and go "wanna beat up demons?"

t. Mal'ganis

That's like saying keeping the NATO after the end of the warsaw treaty was a good idea.
Only extremely blue eyed idiots thought that.
The horde from wc3 on existed because outside threads, which would endanger their members if alone. With Proudmores invasion and Theramores cooperation with the invaders humans and by extention the alliance are a collective thread.
If you want to disable the horde, you have to do the same with the alliance. Otherwise similar blocs will form again.

They didn't use Necromancy untill the Cataclysm when Thrall wasn't in charge.

>They only raise a small handful with their minds
A small handful too many for the good guys

Yeah but what about all those sensations of being constantly hungry and tired and horny but not having any of the bodily functions to sate those needs? As an example.

And then if you use the light you get back your sense of taste and smell and what not and are forced to live with the monstrosity you are, on top of the Light burning you like fire, the maggots burrowing under your skin and all that nasty stuff.

Exactly my point

Desperation, the Horde/Forsaken allegiance only exists because both sides desperately needed allies

>They didn't use Necromancy untill the Cataclysm when Thrall wasn't in charge.

Right.

It kinda annoys me to look at the WoW horde as someone who just played the RTS warcraft games and actually liked the idea of the Horde trying to redeem itself.

The current horde is a mockery of everything Thrall tried to do.

>No demonology allowed!

Warlocks and Demon-powered Demonhunters everywhere!

>No necromancy allowed!

Forsaken and Death Knights everywhere!

>Horde and Alliance were moving towards friendlier relationships with Jaina's help

Oh god, oh gods and demons what the fuck.

Only duty now nigga. Also agony and hatred and rage

Again, he's only """"""right"""""" if you ignore that Theramore was destroyed in response to the multiple armies it threw at the Horde.

undead warlocks milling around, beign a living middle finger to Thrall's ideas.

>>I'm fairly certain Garrosh started redoubling Horde presence in Nightelf lands first

You being certain doesn't mean anything.

There are NPC's in the game that corroborate the fact that Theramore attacked first, by stating that Theramore had already begun its invasion well before the Cataclysm happened. Garrosh's efforts in Ashenvale happened AFTER the Cataclysm.

That's the bottom line. Stop trying to weasel around the facts with statements such as "I'm fairly certain..." and "Garrosh not investigating and praising the druid ambush grants Theramore a Casus Belli to invade."

I imagine the amount of forsaken warlocks that went to Kalimdor (and Thralls jurisdiction) was pretty low, and they'd have the good sense to hide their demons and pretend they were mages.

New Harbingers short.

youtube.com/watch?v=UW5IYrgOgYU

how does that even make sense from a logical perspective. The horde is always on the offensive in kalimdor, and the alliance is nearly always on the backfoot except for maybe the southern barrens which ends with an old dwarf settlement being destroyed and the alliance pushed out of the barrens altogether. Blizzard's bullshit about how the horde attacked later logically inconsistent with the way the horde itself attacked.

I thought rule#1 was "no demon worship"

Demonology is useful, it's the first line of defense against demon worshipers and demons, because warlocks are the best at detecting that shit, even if they have a risk of becoming a part of the problem

Which NPCs?

Nah. He actively got rid of the Warlocks in the horde.

To quote the WC3 manual on Shamans:

>Under the leadership of Thrall, the Orcs have rediscovered their ancient Shamanistic traditions. In an attempt to rid the Horde of its demonic corruption, Thrall banned the use of Warlock magic and necromancy. Now, all Orc magic users practice Shaman magic which draws its power from the natural world and the elements.

But Neeru Fireblade is RIGHT THERE!

Not that user, but he probably means Kilrok Gorehammer.

>Thrall doesn't care about warlocks and necromancy
>best warchief ever
>Garrosh speaks out and works against both
>stop this, he's Hitler
yes goy, the (((warlocks))) are on your side

Up until Hyjal, I imagine the no-warlocks stance was pretty hardline. Post-Hyjal, I can see him relaxing it a little in order to have some experts on hand to try to avoid the like happening again.

...not that warlocks helped at all with Mount Hyjal. It was entirely druidism, magecraft and shamanism that stopped them.

You know I come to this site daily and I don't think I'll ever get used to the sheer amount of nazi sympathisers I see here every day

Maybe they have just been here all along, just hiding in plain sight, and that is why Donald Trump will be our next president and the media keeps trying to shove Hillary down everyone's throat because chugging a tall glass of diarrhea is better than taking cyanide

>triggered warlock
aren't you supposed to be in the Tomb of Sargeras right now?

Also Wolfheart may have just fucked up the timeline since it's literally the worst warcraft book of them all.But yes lionizing the murder of ambassadors is a good way to get war justifiably declared.

He phrased his praise in a way that was pretty clearly Casus Belli, and I'm STILL pretty sure there was some mention of troop movements in the Shattering, but I need to actually go home and re-read it.

Yeah, but they only got that far because no one noticed the rampant corruption in Lordaeron

Seriously, the cult of the damned was fucking huge by the time the plague was unleashed

Would it kill anyone to have one totally good and trustable warlock that isn't the player character?

On the other hand: Demonology would have done very little to help there. They were running 99% on necromancy.

Oh right, those are separate now

Generally people who risk their soul for power are not trustable people. They are people who want power without caring about the risk.

Necromancy taught by Demons.

That white haired warlock that occasionally shows up in Golden novels around Varian. (Though shes probably just a joke saying "Guess what class, race, and haircolor I main?") which in essence makes ehr a player character.

Yeah. Demons taught necromancy originally but the necromancy itself wasn't demonic.

Wolfheart is still canon, regardless of your opinion on it.

There's no troop movements in the Shattering. I don't know where you keep getting this from.

Also, why are the goalposts being moved? We were originally discussing how Theramore had invaded the Barrens before the Horde invaded Ashenvale, but now you're trying to justify Theramore's invasion because Garrosh supported the attacks on the night elves. It seems like you've accepted the fact that Theramore DID attack first and are now trying to justify it.

I don't care whether Theramore was justified or not in their invasion. I've already proven the point I was arguing (that Theramore struck first) and I don't care to argue about something unrelated.

Risking your soul for power can be done for the right reasons

To protect your country from demons, for one

Funnily enough though, the one race with the highest quantity of not-evil warlocks is gnomes. And they all risk their souls for SCIENCE!

>Necromancy taught by Demons.

Well, necromancy taught by Other Necromancers and Forbidden Tomes mostly. The scourge had very, very few actual demonic forces (Just the spooky vampire assholes)

I don't mean that they helped at the battle, but that Thrall didn't actually know shit about demons until that point. He fights a bunch of Infernals rescuing Grom and then manages to cure him by relying on Jaina's help and expertise, and then at Hyjal his only job is to be a delaying force until the Night Elves can enact their master plan. And without their help he explicitly cannot hold the demons off.

The whole thing has got to be a wakeup call that even if legion-aligned warlocks are a terrible evil, having someone with some actual demonic know-how on hand to advise him is probablya good idea.

Horde attacking Theramore in itself makes perfect military sense. No matter how much Jaine supports diplomacy and is freinds with the former warchief, at the time Horde and Alliance were in a rapidly escalating war with each other. And even if Jaine wouldn't personally like it, she could hardly stop the Alliance forces from using Theramore as a military base and port for their warships. Not without leaving the Alliance, which she would be unlikely to do. Theramore is the biggest Alliance port on eastern coast of Kalimdor, and very close to Orgrimmar as well (even though in "real life" the distances are far greater than in the game, Dustwallow Marsh and Durotar are still veyr close to eachother geographically), so letting the place remain in Alliance hands would be an incredibly stupid military move.

It's like, say, if a war would've broken between Soviet Union and USA, and Cuba would've supported the Soviets. Even if Castro had somehow been the best friend of the president of USA, having an enemy-controlled island right next to your coast that they could use as a staging ground for an invasion is unnacceptable.

The problem is that the Horde jumped straight to nuking the place with no warning, which is generally seen as an extremely shitty thing to do. There's a protocol that people usually follow, and blockading the city and informing the defenders that they can either let the Horde to occupy the city or face military action would've been considerably better than suddenly dropping a nuke on a city that aside from having a military garrison also had a large civilian presense. Plus Garrosh's treatment of the survivors the Horde took as prisoners was hardly in accord with what is considered honorable conduct when dealing with prisoners at war.

Something, something, is Anduin cute?

Mind you, you can know stuff about demons without actually being a warlock. You don't suddenly get black robes if you can identify what an Infernal is.

Warlocks can literally sense demons and demonic taint