Exalted 3e

Aw, that's a cute fish. She doesn't eat it, does she? The fish lives a long happy life and has lots of adorable fish babies, right?

Because the loser is craving (You)s to try and fill the void in his life.

Your honor, if you compare the samples of text side-by-side, it is plain to see that the "Sane rules" sample is of a much smaller type than the "Natural language" sample. I move that the evidence be re-submitted with both samples in the same type, font, and formatting. As it is here, the presentation is clearly biased!

Would it be better if more powers just had you flat out succeed to do physically impossible shit?

I'm guessing you would say yes.

I agree with you.

While your point is valid, I assert that this is also a stylistic problem. Exalted blindly applies a tired stylistic standard when better alternatives exist.

>adorable
Well... Maybe

The thing is, Holden and Morke have Notions about Exalted and the Solar Exalted and everything else.

Like, they want to avoid narrative storygame taint in a White Wolf game. They want to avoid being overly concerned about balance while also fixing the system. There are so many contradictions in the pack of promises we were give that argh.

I knew it would be shit when they said that they hadn't looked at the nWoD(fuck you paradox, you're going to wreck everything about the oWoD to sate eurotrash shitbirds in a desperate attempt to relive your 90s goth glory days and get underage pussy)

Ah, 4e style text.

Lets you write better purpose.

A lawgiver never runs out of ammo, as long as there is essence.

A lawgiver can literally wield their will with those arrows, using either treasured memories or deep ire.

Such use does cause the feeling behind such motives to fade somewhat, requiring some recovery.

Still. using your emotions in these manner should probably curse those impacted.

Maybe extra damage for everything for a duration of time?

>why can't i just auto-succeed on these tasks that are very difficult even for a superhuman godslayer?!?

And how, exactly, can a SIZE of lettering be "tired"?
Further, the idea that the stylistic standards seen here are somehow inferior to the suggested standard is not evident from what we can see here. Another key difference between the "Sane" and "Natural" rules is that the Natural language section is more properly formatted for a rulebook organized by columns -- in other words, it's not only possible that the formatting here is actually MORE preferable than a format that favors unbounded right margins!

Seems like a better example would have been to compare two professionally done examples of each style for the same effect, rather than one professional and one fan work that seems to abuse the margins to avoid getting vertical length.

If only I could find my ol' 4e vs. 3.X stuff.

Or 5e vs 4e.

4e did game piece formatting for class powers designed to be used in combat.

nobody used those

like, exalted has never been about CAN YOU LIFT THIS COLLAPSED ROOF?, BY THE WAY, IT'S ABOUT FIFTY POUNDS AND THIS MATTERS TO THE GAME MECHANICS AND STORY BECAUSE

In Exalted As It Actually Was Played increasing strength exercise increased your strength by a factor of whatever, and you adjusted your dicepool ac'rdingly, Nobody I knew referred to the fucking feat of strength chart to determine how much shit, exactly, that their character could lift

unless

oh god

Holden and Morke were the two shitheads who, when told the dice-pool, got into a huge fucking semantic argument about how heavy heavy is, necessitating the existence of such charts in the first place

or they're the shitty sts who couldn't reign that shit in

THEY BOUGHT EXALTED FOR THE FEAT OF STRENGTH TABLE DEAR GOD KILL ME

at civilized tables we banish those fuckers back to D&D land how the fuck did these shitheads land this gig with OPP what the fuck

A style is more than the size. The two column organizational style can be deviated from. I do admit that personal bias caused me to overlook the fact that the sample of "Natural language" has likely been cherry-picked to further arguments against it.

I would like to argue that the "Sane rules" style would be succinct and pleasing to more people than the "Natural language" style, but it would be a weak argument, with little evidence.

Have you actually played the game? Because sure there boring to read about against a background of white but no one I know of who's played the game still felt charms were boring.

>Godbound has natural language too
Where?

Because the alternative is inferior by almost any standard you care to mention.
In 2e there was this charm that just auto succeeded at every feat of strength. Sure that's cool when you read it, and might be fun the first couple of times you use it, but after that it just makes everything dull. It removes any sort of challenge or roadblock based around physical prowess, and when it is used you're just pressing the magical make me perfect button. 3e has this whole branch of charms around feats of strength. That isn't as fun to read but when you actually hit the capstone after however long and activate a bunch of charms to bench press a city it actually feels like a monuments task.

>In Exalted As It Actually Was Played increasing strength exercise increased your strength by a factor of whatever, and you adjusted your dicepool ac'rdingly, Nobody I knew referred to the fucking feat of strength chart to determine how much shit, exactly, that their character cou
Sounds like a shit group problem instead of a shit game problem to me.

Why would they design a system where unique powers just remove challenges. pathfinder wizards already exist :^)

I think he wants something where more of the powers do something interesting.

The arrow charm posted is a good example of what he doesn't want.

It allows you to just shoot your bow without ammo, and gives you a wonky bonus to attack for free, and only later does it give you something that is more than "you use your weapons forever, and do it better."

If it gave something semi-unique as the rider for the arrow made of desires, maybe he would be happier. (For example, examples,positives apply an effect that makes your opponent suck at attacking for round, and negative means that they take extra damage from attacks for a round.)

I fail to see how this isn't a personal taste thing.

The charms I really, really loathe are the things like 'You now explode on 9s/reroll 4s' Things that just make the final dice result more fiddly without concretely doing something. They are dull but they also add time to your turn and are utter hell for newbies to evaluate the value of.

The issue is that the first one takes up a hell of a lot of room without actually adding anything. It adds a lot of extra pages over the course of a book that could be used to create more actual material of note.

Double Cross does it, too.

Moveover, the flavor description has to use the game terms that exist, and somethings they just don't read good.

Wouldn't it be nice to refer to the things that characters are seriously invested in as things other than Intemencies?

And a simple statement of (this is not something that can be used completely at-will in two different ways)

I'm going to bed, for reasons that are obvious.

Yeah, that is something that 4e did a LOT better.

Here is a line or two of flavor. Now here is the mechanics without any ambiguity or wasted space.

It's really weird. 4e has likely my favorite depiction of demon summoning in an RPG and it's almost 100% due to the mechanics. If you are giving them commands actively? They are very potent and will behave.

However unlike other summons, if you leave them alone they will completely run amok on ally and enemy alike. The Druid's giant bear isn't quite as potent as your demon but he's not going to go chokeslam the fighter into the ground if you suddenly need to focus on something else.

Yeah, 4e's strong point was actually making things feel distinct mechanically.

The general of an infernal legion wasn't only the general of an infernal legion because he was a devil and high level with lots of HP and damage, but because he had abilities that enhanced the mook-devils working under his command.

>nobody used those

Perhaps in whatever fucking negaverse you spawned from where up is down, black is white and nobody wanted the cool wushu shit.

Because Holden and Morke aren't half as good as they think they are.

1d4chan.org/wiki/Linear_Build_Quadratic_EXP#Examples

Godbound's "charms" are like three sentences, maybe two paragraphs tops, never require prerequisites, rarely outmode each other unless you intentionally buy two extremely similar Words and then buy two extremely similar gifts, and tell you exactly what they do without muss or fuss. What fluff they have tends to be sparing to leave it up to you, with ideas on how you accomplish Feat X.

Exalted takes what could be done in half a page and does it in twelve, and each successive charm is usually a fucking stepstone to the charms you actually want to use.

Exalted's problems go way beyond the language. Godbound's at least quick to pick up, learn, play, and be kind of cool in.

Mythender did a better job of the god/mortal power discrepancy.

It basically says "You kill mortals as a non-action, no save. If you say you kill a mortal, you kill them."

>ctrl+f "pal"
>0 of 0.
Come on man.

And by God more games should do it. I don't want to read your pretentious overly-detailed descriptions trying to figure out if something does damage or not, or have to wrestle with your #NoFunAllowed legalese.

I feel like in a pheonix wright game they wouldn't correct it to appear non-biased and they'd either threaten or give you a penalty for not giving evidence that they shouldn't be biased after the prosecutor openly threatens the judge with a sword or something

That does not sound better, user. That does not sound better at all.

But mortals aren't irrelevant in Exalted, because while you are just straight better at your fields of expertise, nobody is a master of everything. Even if you're an undisputed master of combat, legendary mortal scholars are going to be able to out-think you, legendary mortal diplomats will be able to sway you with their words etc.

I loved the one that had an aura that let allies of it get a bonus attack each turn with extra accuracy and damage...and eat a massive hit of damage immediately after that attack. He's making them fuel their attacks with their lives and turning hordes of minions into hero-seeking missiles.

iirc, his theme was supposed to be 'I'm a tyrant commander, my men are to be spent for victory' like some Evil Warlord.

First off, that's terrible.

Second, in Exalted, you're not a literal god who can kill humans by thinking about them really hard. You're incarnated. If you get surrounded by at least five of them, they can start plinking health off of you.

>without actually adding anything
But it does. It adds flavor. That's the whole point of the fluff proise in the charms.

Eh, while I like the system having enough awareness of when it should make you roll to do things, and when you shouldn't. Auto-killing all non-godly npcs is not always the best choice for how to handle them.

As well as some non-gods having power roughly like those of explitly divine power, you should not be able to kill a unit of men because you could strangle each one to death if they didn't group together to stop the choking.

That may be how it works in your named system, but it didn't sound like it.

It adds flavor badly, and make the mechanics harder to understand.

It also forces the use of mechanical words in flavor that people in setting probably don't use all the time. (see intimacies)

Honestly, anytime where insistent terminology isn't followed in setting makes the world believable.

Of course, the succubus vs incubus difference in 4e isn't going to be common knowledge and commoners are going to just use those words to describe the apparent gender of those shapeshifting devils and demons.

>It adds flavor badly, and make the mechanics harder to understand.
Again, i fall back to personal taste thing. I can think of only a handful of charms that i didnt understand after one read.

This is a nitpick but that doesn't make sense for phantom arrow. There are charms that just add incidental bonuses, but if 'you never ever need to worry about ammo again' isn't a charm that does something interesting i dont know what is

This

Is Spider-man a better character when he can or can't run out of web shot?

It's nitpicky tracking for a power that if a character runs out, they would just run.

And even so, it's not like you actually have infinite arrows, you just have the ability to tie your arrow stock to your mote production, something that generally is dedicated to something actually interesting.

Hell, that plenty of mythological heros have "the quiver of never ending arrows" why would you spend exp to replicate a effect used to reduce bookkeeping?

Because quivers of never-ending arrows aren't actually everywhere if Exalted, because an archer character who can kick ass as long as he gets his hands on a bow - well, with whatever-the-Charm was, Immaculate Golden Bow maybe? - is cool, because it's an effect that just plain makes sense for a Solar archer to have.

>Is Spider-man a better character when he can or can't run out of web shot?
Yes. He is. Spiderman who can't ever run out is better than spideer man who can.
>It's nitpicky tracking for a power that if a character runs out, they would just run.
I fail to see your point. Yeah if an archer runs out of arrows he has to run, thats really bad. Now he never does.
>And even so, it's not like you actually have infinite arrows, you just have the ability to tie your arrow stock to your mote production, something that generally is dedicated to something actually interesting.
One arrow is one mote, you gain five a turn, you essentially do have infinite arrows. And how is 'keep me attacking when i dont have ammo' not something interesting?
>Hell, that plenty of mythological heros have "the quiver of never ending arrows" why would you spend exp to replicate a effect used to reduce bookkeeping?
Because thats what charms are, you spend xp to do things mythical heroes do.

If you think five arrows a turn that has an opportunity cost of being able to do actually magical shit is infinite, then I laugh.

Sure, I can understand wanting to play complex resource management games, but please, not during my RPG session.

>complex
Do you have dyscalculia or something? I honestly don't get what you could possibly have against a simple, useful, thematically appropriate power like Phantom Arrow Technique.

>has an opportunity cost of being able to do actually magical shit
You missed my point, pulling arrows out of thin air IS magical shit. Besides you don't lose anything of that, you can make the arrows and also use all your other archery charms at the exact same time.

Ignoring bullets in gun is something plenty of action movie characters have, so it isn't magical feeling

And they don't think to themselves "I've been shooting magic bullets so I can't survive bullshit using my magic fuelled powers".

Basically yes, I am. Don't you feel smart?

If phantom arrow technique was a 5 mote reflective duration scene charm, I would have much less problems with it. Burning 5 motes to actually have infinite arrows and no additional mote costs lets me ignore my arrow tracking for a scene and not replace it with trying to figure out if double attacks cost me double the mote arrows or not, and worrying if I should go back to real arrows to be able to use defensive charms.

That's not really an argument.
You're not playing a movie. It doesnt matter how often or not something happens, thats irrelevant. Exalted isn't trying to be an action movie, so no you don't just get infinite ammo all the time.

>Fish out of water
>In front of cat
Cute fish is going in cat's belly

Sure, but as a way to represent you being able to pull arrows out of nowhere without a thought, Phantom Arrow Technique doesn't do it well, and the fact that it costs your character progression points to be as flaccid as it is is terrible.