Does Magic the Gathering really require skill, or is it just based off of who has the best cards at the given moment?

The thing with brainstorm is that it's a card that becomes better the more information you have. Typically with brainstorm you want some kind of shuffle effect because ideally you're going to put the two worst cards in your hand back on top. The issue is that without a shuffle effect you're replacing your next two blind-draws with known bad-draws. If the three you draw initially are good enough you can over come this (say they combo to win the game), or you have a way to eek advantage (say putting something on top to ensure you flip your Delvers), you're going to want to then shuffle away the bad cards. Casting a blind brainstorm on T1 is a terrible move because you're at best getting a slight advantage, and at worst crippling your early game. Likewise brainstorming with an empty hand only nets you one card.

There's a lot that goes along with the card.

These are all the right and wrong answers some of the time.

Hell even Mono Red Burn requires some level of skill from the player. Should you slow your clock and kill your opponent's turn one mana dork to prevent them from being able to race, or should you go for the face and hope you'll just end up so far ahead they can't keep up?

Depends on the matchup, trying to out-advantage a deck like Jund is a silly proposition.

>Typically with brainstorm you want some kind of shuffle effect because ideally you're going to put the two worst cards in your hand back on top.
I agreed with your general concept, but I disagree with a few things. Generally you want to order your cards to ensure you get good draws early game, particularly in EDH. Popping a brainstorm in EDH T1 with 2 lands in hand is a good play, in my opinion, because it allows you to see how your next few draws are going to be shaped, and a brainstorm can let you keep an otherwise risky starting hand. If you see a land, you aren't necessarily putting your worst cards back, you're putting back things with high casting cost, and ordering them to expedite your next few plays. If you only hit one land on card 3, that's awesome because it gives you information about your next 3 draws that would have fucked you, had you not known it earlier. Even if you hit no lands, you can know not to instantly blow your wad assuming you're hitting a land drop each turn. Yes, it is vulnerable to mill, but if you're playing someone who throws down that way, chances are they're not going to use their mill on two cards you discarded from your hand t1. It's more likely that they wait until you draw those cards and then hit you in that context, but it can backfire hilariously if you aren't prepared.

Long story short, Brainstorm is a very strategic card and we have slightly different opinions on how to use it based on the formats we play.

Valid reasoning, but I do still think the more information you have the better. I can definitely see the times where a T1 blind brainstorm is an ok to good play, but I maintain you have to have a solid reason for doing it.

Ultimately I think the best to say about brainstorm is: be cognizant of why you're casting it.

>Ultimately I think the best to say about brainstorm is: be cognizant of why you're casting it.
Well put. You are a reasonable person and I want to take a moment to recognize that in the middle of summer. Hope you have an awesome night.

something something mana weaving

Pile shuffling is not manaweaving and it's a fine way to sort your cards before mashing them a few times and offering your deck to your opponent.

Thanks. You're a reasonable user as well. There's a reason I only post in Veeky Forums, have a good night as well!

This is objectively false, pile shuffling is explicitly not sufficient randomization in the fucking tournament rules

The fuck it isn't. Only reason to pile shuffle is to count your cards at start and between sideboarding. Pile shuffling is inefficient, time consuming and not even randomizing.

....Did I take the bait?

Oh, and relevant to the post.

youtube.com/watch?v=gUmsg7VD3pw

Now, to be completely honest with both of you, I've pile shuffled in a sealed draft with decklists, while playing against a judge, and while the actual judge watched, mashed my deck like four times, and no one really cared. It's only a problem if shenanigans start happening, I just do it because I'm superstitious as all fuck and if I don't do it, I'll bitch if I lose because I didn't do it. It has nothing to do with anything else, just puts my mind at ease.

Eh, I've just been using it as a neat 1 cost for pic related in my mill deck.

Then you are objectively stupid to believe in fallacy...

How do you shuffle without riffling and fucking up your cards? Go on, I'm all ears.

From my understanding, formats exist to mitigate p2w. If you can't afford a legacy deck, go play modern, standard or pauper. I really wish pauper was more popular, its such a fun format.

I mean, I play death and taxes in legacy, and I cannot tell you how many times I have had opponents get fucked over by a questionable hand they kept because of brainstorm.
It's fine when the card is U, but when its now 1U, it gets a lot worse.

test

That's one thing I learned early on from DnT: I should never keep a bad opening hand because I happen to have a brainstorm.

I play Canadian Threshold which is why I have a lot of thoughts about brainstorm.

>From my understanding, formats exist to mitigate p2w. If you can't afford a legacy deck, go play modern, standard or pauper. I really wish pauper was more popular, its such a fun format.
I don't really agree with you user. Every deck has a T1 ubermensch that's cost prohibitive, but you're right, some formats have a lower cost associated with them.

I think there's a difference between cost prohibitive and pay to win. Cost prohibitive is relative to one's financial situation, and varies wildly. Pay to win meanwhile is concrete language, but doesn't really hold up in certain formats like say, Standard where rogue decks appear all the time. You're definitely right about the ubermensch deck existing in all formats, but I think the original user's point was correct in stating most formats are designed to avoid P2W from occurring.

turn 3 cluster fux

Depends on the format
Drafting has a really low skill floor due to the comparatively complex understanding of deckbuilding you need do well
Standard has no such requirements, once you're familiar with the basics and the meta it's pretty easy to know the optimal play at any given moment, because you know what cards they probably have in their hand and your deck's win condition is clear and defined.

By not doing pile shuffling and shuffling like normal. I'm sure smashing is faster than riffles with sleeves anyway and probably randomizes better.

>By not doing pile shuffling and shuffling like normal
Do you mean by mashing cards? Like I said I did IN ADDITION to pile shuffling?

>Does Magic the Gathering really require skill
Technically, yes.

However, the entirety of that skill boils down to knowing the current meta and how you should react to what using what, which makes it rather shallow.

Mana weaving is frowned upon in many playgroups, and is illegal in tournaments I think.

>Magic the Gathering
>Skill

Are you me?

As someone who fundamentally hates card games and people who play them competitively, yes there is some skill. Luck is a huge factor, if you're just getting mana-flooded or mana-screwed there ain't shit you can do and your own deck has beaten you more than your opponent has. But skill shines through in a few areas, there's skill in knowing what to play and when if you actually have options but mostly the skill part is in building a deck.

The basic way I see it is that it breaks down to roughly
>50% deckbuilding
>30% luck in game
>20% skill in game

It requires knowing the meta. I mean there's not really any skill in how you drop a card onto the table. But maybe some people would call acquiring and using that knowledge "skill"

its not just about what cards you have, its about when you play them

Both skill and luck, similar to other patrician games such as poker.

Just fucking riffle you cucks

There's a degree of knowledge required in putting together an effective deck, but yeah, it's very much pay-to-win.

Best way to play is agree upon a casual format with friends. Don't even bother trying to play with guys at your local game stores, as they no doubt have the NEETbux to waste on high-end decks.

Just play pauper.

Also, are you implying being a NEET pays well?

Where does this idea come from exactly?

>Does Magic the Gathering really require skill, or is it just based off of who has the best cards at the given moment?

Both. Magic is really skill-intensive AND really pay-to-win. Given decks of equal strength, expert players can absolutely crush newbies barring massive bad luck on draws - a mirror match against a better player is a 1-9 matchup. However, an expert player cannot beat a newbie if the newbie has a stronger deck. The range of power from weakest cards and decks to strongest in this game is absurd.

It requires a pretty good amount of skill I feel

>crafting your own deck and tweaking it
>changing your sideboard for certain events or metacalls
>limited requires quite a bit of knowledge
>knowing how to just play the game well, decision making and so on
>specific interactions go a long way

Obviously there is a pay-to-play entry fee but that's because it's a hobby not a fucking charity

>implying that bolting the bird isn't always the correct line of play.

>tfw I pile shuffle and mana weave just to rattle my autistic opponents

ofc it requires skill
>using sword to plowswhares on some 1 mana mob instead of saving it for the big guns

>Obviously there is a pay-to-play entry fee but that's because it's a hobby not a fucking charity

I wish more people understood this. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with playing on a budget but people who bitch about the cost piss me off.

>Bend my $600 foil Tarmo

F U C K O F F

People bitch about the cost because MAGIC COSTS TOO MUCH. No game should cost $1000+ dollars EVERY YEAR YOU PLAY IT. The game is objectively too expensive by any sane standard and if you don't like people bitching about it, too fucking bad because it's never going to end.

Why?

The cards are built to be bent as such.

Not to mention it's very possible and easy to riffle with very little bend.

Not that I would ever riffle another persons cards, merely my own.

I also cut by putting the first 2-3 cards on the bottom.

: ^ )

So buy chinaman fakes?

It's not hard.

Also;

>playing standard
>complaining about price

ohohohohoohohoho

Legacy is only expensive because of Wizards retarded promise to uphold the Reserved list

Standard doesn't even cost 1000+ to keep up with it in a year

Once you buy into a legacy or modern or whatever deck you really don't have to buy a new one every year unless you get cucked by choosing pod or twin.

I dunno how you are figuring you need 1000+ dollars a year every year to play this shit buddy

Every (official) format in Magic is too expensive. Only difference is whether it's an upfront ludicrous sum ($15000 for a Vintage control deck) or yearly extortion for a smaller, but still absurd sum.

It's by far the most crippling flaw of the game and the reason every time people ask me should they get into Magic, I have to tell them no, you can't afford it, I can't afford it either but I do it because I'm a fucking idiot.

I live in a third-world country where playing such an expensive hobby is unthinkable, me and my friends just play on forge and cockatrice instead.

>I dunno how you are figuring you need 1000+ dollars a year every year to play this shit buddy

Because I don't think playing a single deck all year every year is fun at all. I need multiple decks to even enjoy the game. I think only fucking weirdos can keep playing the same deck and not get bored to death.

Duels is pretty good too, its F2P model is really fair.

That vintage control deck is less than half the cost you quoted there, probably less with a measly investment of about $50-70 on chinaman fakes that are indistinguishable when sleeved.

Proxy legacy events exist.

Playing any non-rotating format insulates you from this 'yearly cost' you're obsessed with.

Pauper is an official format.

You should also kill yourself, or maybe just stop being poor.

Addendum;

Who the fuck plays vintage? if you're going to shitpost at least go for something believable like legacy ok?

No. Casting Brainstorm at your opponent's EOT is only correct if you're looking for a specific card and need the extra mana on your turn. If you're just looking for action it's much better to cast it during your main phase.

>entry fee

>"It's a one-time investment, guys!"

In other words, you've never actually played MtG in a competitive setting.

>Things cost money
Holy shit breaking fucking news stop the presses

So play cockatrice?

It's pretty obvious you can't hold a conversation for more than a few minutes anyway, why even bother going to fnm?

>$50-70 on chinaman fakes that are indistinguishable when sleeved
Your solution, when told that the game in question is too expensive, it to buy fake product? That should tell you that something is wrong with your business model.

It remains slightly odd that small pieces of printed cardboard are among the set of things that can cost a fairly large amount of money.

>Every (official) format in Magic is too expensive
sealed
draft

These are also usually going to be the best and most interesting formats to play in at any given time.

>mfw you get dq'd

How many would actually care if your opponent is playing with fakes? Cause I honestly wouldn't even at comp REL

I got all my deck 100% real because I'm autistic and enjoy holding something valuable but as long as my opponent's card look real enough that I can distinguish what card it is at a glance I'm already happy I can just get to play

The only issue I have with fakes is that I have to check every card I buy because some cuntnuggets sell them

Yeah, having more money for Magic always helps but there is a point where you just have to know when and where to play your cards. Hell, having a good poker face and not letting your emotions get the best of you even when you're getting manaflooded or manascrewed is a factor to victory as well.

Before I stopped going to this one LGS for FNM there was a guy there who Netdecked to the max (He had recently bought a set of Unlimited Moxes to put into perspective how much money he threw at the game) but was just the worst player. The moment he had a series of bad draws you know immediately when you could just start going all out on him and knowing he didn't have the mana curve or cards to do anything about it. Hell, I once saw him draw a card, grumble "FUCK" under his breath and pass; only to have it be thirty seconds later him cursing out loud that he forgot to play one of the four lands in his hand.

>The only issue I have with fakes is that I have to check every card I buy because some cuntnuggets sell them
pretty much my view on it as well

I wish wizard's would put out something along the lines of the old championship decks for legacy/vintage staples. "official" proxies would do the game a world of good.

While I agree with what you're saying something just feels wrong about how with the same amount of money to build certain Modern decks I could build a second high end gaming PC for my living room.

It's not the cost that's really holding me back, it's knowing what else I could do with the same cost.

Opportunity cost is a cost

before cracking polluted delta ofc

B>U>R>W>G in terms of skill required to fully exploit each individual color

youtube.com/watch?v=2pJyOtEzLWo

For anyone who has ever disputed that this is a skill game.

Just read some of the stuff the Top-tier players of any TCG say. Skill separates the top from the bottom, but at the highest level - luck plays as more determining factor. HS pros constantly nags about the RNG.

It's not too expensive for me though, it's expensive for you.

I have a job and can actually afford to throw money at a hobby if I so desire.

You don't so I'm suggesting a cheaper alternative to deal with said expense that is near indistinguishable for all intents and purposes of play.

That sounds like your problem.

Jewelry has no real purpose than to show how much of a pretentious/insecure cunt you are and it's pretty expensive.

Putting that aside, you have hoarders, reserve list and insiders to blame for the price of a lot of these cards. Hate them, not the game.

>Hearthstone

AhahahhahahhahHASHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAH

You don't think some people are just more money wise than you, when they decide not to put down tons of cash on cardboard?

Doesn't exactly have anything to do with being able to. I just got rid off real cards and changed to fakes, because there is absolutely zero reason to play with real cards. I can get behind paying for draft as money goes straight to LGS and WotC, but second hand market is a fucking cancer.

>HS pros constantly nags about the RNG.
That's because Hearthstone is nothing but RNG. Cards deals random amounts of damage to random targets and summon random creatures that do random things when they come into play and other random things when they die.

Or I just want to be able to actually trade and resell if I wish?

Not saying I'm against fakes, I own quite a few with many being in EDH decks and my cube because as you say, it's fucking ridiculous.

But people have payed more for less. What does the price of bread(or cardboard) have to do with me being money wise? Is every person who buys something for face value not money wise?

Even so, I'm not even saying that I'M money wise, it's just a stupid claim.

The best skill a player can possess in any card game is deckbuilding.

However, knowing how and when and why to play the cards you currently have is also an important skill.

Really though, it's still a card game, so luck is always going to be a large factor.

As someone who's only ever played the most casual of kitchen table games with friends; Mana Weaving?

Mana weaving is to kinda arrange mana into your shuffle, so you're guaranteed to mull/draw 2-3 lands every now and then. Like for example usually players who mana weave will separate their deck into two piles, one for spells and one for land. At this point, they arrange the cards in a set pattern when they shuffle their decks: two spells, one land, two spells, one land, and so on. In a 60 card deck with 20 land cards, this leaves the deck in a nice 2:1 ratio of spells to land and assures that the player will draw plenty of land.

This is objectively incorrect. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how decks interact with eachother and combine in various formats.

No.

>When's the best time to brainstorm?
there isn't a best time to brainstorm, there are only times when you should not brainstorm.

for example, if you have no reliable way of shuffling your library - you should not brainstorm.
if you have a generally strong hand - you should not brainstorm.
if the other guy is a miracuck with counter-top online or a stompy player with chalice on 1, probably just don't brainstorm unless you're trying to bait the miracuck into putting top on his library for whatever reason.
if you're holding two and bluffing force, definitely do not brainstorm unless they fire off a combo piece or lethal threat.
generally brainstorm is used on your own turn to manipulate your topdeck (flip a delver, etc) or shuffle away cards you don't want. ponder is what you're normally going to use for digging into your library because of the built-in shuffle.

>there isn't a best time to brainstorm
Yes there is, and that time is when you need to cast Brainstorm. What you shouldn't do is cast it early just to smooth out your draws. That's a wasted Brainstorm if I've ever seen one.

What you should do is wait for as long as possible before casting it, and when you do so almost always do it at sorcery speed because that way you don't waste a turn doing nothing, alternatively get to see an extra card before casting it. If your opponent cast a discard spell while you have Brainstorm in hand and one or more other good cards in your hand that you need to protect you can Brainstorm in response, alternatively if they're doing something strong that you need to counter and you don't have any counterspells in hand you can Brainstorm to look for one.

Probe, Brainstorm, Ponder, Visions; in that order.

Op here. From what I gather in this thread, and from my own experience in playing, I come to the conclusion that Magic does require skill to survive in the short run, but is unfair in the long run.

Basically if you master the fundamentals and you have an amazing deck you win the game every time. However, if you master the fundamentals but have an average deck, you will win some of the time.

It's a mixed bag. It's a fun game, but it's not one that I would take seriously.

>If you're just looking for action it's much better to cast it during your main phase.

I mean, it's nice to play it then get that spent mana back immediately during your upkeep, that's the way I see it.

>it's nice to play it then get that spent mana back immediately during your upkeep
And also much worse than getting to draw an extra card.

Ah, I see now.

>Basically if you master the fundamentals and you have an amazing deck you win the game every time.
You forgot the luck part. Even an awesome deck can be fucked by bad luck, bad matchups, or good luck by your opponent. Yes, the floor and ceiling are two vastly different levels, and a deck at the floor will not beat a top deck, but this is why other formats exist.

>However, if you master the fundamentals but have an average deck, you will win some of the time.
Ya, that's fair. I can give you that.

>It's a mixed bag. It's a fun game, but it's not one that I would take seriously.
Also spot on. It's a fun hobby, but not something to do competitively. You can play competitively for fun, like I do, but in general you don't play to try and make money or win, you play because you like it.

If the decks are around the same price point. If not, your wallet wins more often than not.

Hearthstone has RNG in its cards because you get 1 mana every single turn no matter what.

Imagine playing Magic where you didn't need to play lands and got to add 1 source of any color mana every turn.

Magic has rng in mana, hearthstone has rng in the cards themselves. It's also a digital medium so it can afford to print shit like lightning storm and yogg aaron

When you're as good at magic as brian kibler you can talk down the game all you want