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I use to play a lot of tabletop GW games a few years ago, but it was already on a decline. I quit around the end of wh40k 5th edition. (6th was just coming out) I had sizeable IG and Lizardmen armies I put into storage somewhere. What has happened to both WH40k and WHF since?

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WHF Is dead. Sigmar took its place.
40k still going strong.
M.Ward is gone.
Sobs haven't had an update in eons

40k is still going, but now its even more of a bloated unbalanced mess than it ever was. the meta has never been worse

whfb was dying a slow and painful death, so GW killed it by advancing the story where everything died, and aos is its sequel. the system also got simplified and streamlined. a lot of whfb players were pissed with the changes, but its picking up steam among a new community of players.

Fantasy has been replaced with Fantasy: Age of Sigmar. More streamlined and more like 40k I guess. Just came out with a generals handbook that gives everything point values which they didn't have previously.
40k is bloated and unbalanced so no changes there, fundamentally.

40k is even more bloated and unbalanced than ever before, to the point where it's almost collapsing under its own weight. GW haven't released a full new codex in several years. Armies are getting new units and small rules tweaks via expensive campaign books, the content of which you'll only use a fraction of unless you own every army they cover.

Warhammer Fantasy was axed because it didn't sell enough, and replaced with a much simpler, stripped down skirmish system. The rules are a complete mess and it was only just given a points system, which GW largely cribbed from an existing homebrew comp pack. I can't say how well it's selling worldwide but it's utterly dead here.

Guy at my gamestore said fantasy is outselling 40k for the fist time since... ever?

in the financial report, GW reported fantasy sales are better than they have been in years, heavily implying it's due to AoS, which I am inclined to believe. Granted it's probably not selling as much as 40k or 30k, but its doing well enough for them to keep the course. But the game is bringing in new blood and starting a whole new growing community, which i think was its intended purpose. And this financial report includes earnings before the points system and generals handbook.

GW has been opening communication back up to the community, which is obvious with the FB group, the faqs, and actual deals with their kits. They used the SCGT points system for the basis of the new points system and I don't think it's a sign of weakness. It's a sign of them recognizing the valuable resource that is their customers. The SCGT guys talked with the devs on how to make the game better, and they listened.

The funny thing is, overall sales are still down, so if they're telling the truth that AoS is now selling more than Fantasy was, that means that 40k sales are down way more than anyone thought.

The part that floors me about the 40k sales model is the fucking codexes themselves. The books are atrocious. 40-50$ for a book that covers most-ish of the rules for a given army list, plus any allies you have you need another book, plus supplemental units in another book, plus the rulebook. By the time you have all the rules to actually play a game of 40k with a decent sized army you're pulling shit out of four books that cost you a solid 250$ all told. That's retarded.

Granted, I play 30k, so I clearly don't care all that much about pricing, but if GW would just do the following I'd be so happy.

1. Pare down the bloated unwieldy mess of rules to a simpler system. If every unit has 1-2 special rules, they aren't special anymore, they're just rules.

2. Release the core rulebook as a pdf for a pittance/free, or a hardcopy for whatever.

3. Release army lists IN FULL (no more Horus Heresy bullshit of spreading one army across six 80$ books, you fuckers) as pdfs for a pittance/free. You could throw together a fucking MS Excel codex in an afternoon with all the relevant rules and it'd probably be laid out better than some of the current books.

WHF was axed and replaced with a skirmish game. While the rules certainly aren't well designed and well balanced, and the lore is at its lowest point ever, and the models look stupid, if you like it then try it out. I am sure that it can be tons fun with the right group.

40K is better than WHF, but not by too much. I adore some of the more recent releases, especially the mechanicus stuff, which might make collecting new stuff worth it IMO. The rules are just bloated and they continue their trend of pushing huge centerpiece kits as usual.

40k is still shit. WMH is dead. This is a prime opportunity to start playing some better game.

your talking out of your ass

How exactly is what he wrote not spot-on?

Have they even released much 40k in the last year? Seems like it's been all Sigmar all the time. Hard to sell a lot without new products to sell.

Horseshit. We don't know any numbers, all we have is conjecture.
Supposedly, "AoS is selling better than WHFB sold during several years!!", according to GW, which tells us exactly nothing, because they dont't tell us which years.

A fuckload.
>space marines
>dark angels
>tau
>space wolves campaign
>calth box
>genestealer cult/deathwatch box
And that's not counting the bundle/repackage boxes.

investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2015-16-Press-statement.pdf

lizardmen fucking rule in age of sigmar

aos is outselling 40k at my local gw by something like 4:1, according to the store manager

Nice opinions. Because that's all you wrote were opinions.

Solid point and nice trips, Captain Obvious.

>And this financial report includes earnings before the points system and generals handbook.
Not to mention that the General's handbook has had a significant impact on the popularity of the game. The aos fans Facebook group is flooded with "just starting aos, where do I begin?" type questions, the aos generals too. Frontline gaming and the ITC are picking it up, supporting US tournaments as official itc events.

So if the reports are good on aos before the ghb, they're going to be even better after.

Fantasy was outselling 40K not even 10 years ago you fucko.

WHFB is dead, 40K is dying, AoS is stillborn, and the company doesn't really intend to do more than cosmetic changes.

Better hop on another train.

Maybe his store is under ten years old? Did you maybe completely miss the part where he was talking about his store and not the market as a whole?

>Did you maybe completely miss the part where he was talking about his store and not the market as a whole?
Yes, maybe because it wasn't mentioned at all.

>AoS is stillborn
What's it like living in fairytale land?

It cracks me up how much people are in denial despite repeated evidence to the contrary.
>Inb4 aos completely killed fantasy sales in my store

>40K : one dozen on players at my LFGS
>KoW : more than 30 regular players
>Warzone : a dozen of players
>Saga : a dozen of players
>AoS : 3 players

>0 national tournaments
>0 national events
Keep in mind this is where one of the most active WHFB scene was.

lol no.

I feel it needs to be mentioned that gw went free rules and free army list entries with the new warhammer fantasy. So getting into the game is cheaper than ever, especially since you don't need a fuckhuge army to even start playing. And the game can still scale up to those massive numbers easily.

If anything, the base rulebook now for it is the General's handbook which provides the points values for every single unit in the game, including the out of print stuff, and the book also provides several different campaign and narrative system options. And this book is only $25.

In my opinion, 40k needs the aos treatment really bad, and here's to hoping that's what the rumored 8th edition will be.

AoS isn't for the scene kids.

>And the game can still scale up to those massive numbers easily
AoS system is way too slow for anything over 50 minis on the table, unless you have a whole afternoon to spend.

Nice anecdotal. All that shows is aos is dead in your store, not nationally. But there is truth in it worth noting.

A majority of the whfb players did not make the switch to aos. They went to either kow or 9th age. AoS is coming into its own under a new crowd of players, a lot of which I see are either completely new players to tabletop wargames or coming from 40k.

Despite releasing more shit than ever and having actually worthwhile starting boxes, GW sales are falling while all their competitors are rising.

Take that as you will.

The games are slightly worse but the models are much better.

However, if you ever bought into GW for the games rather than the setting and hobby you're possibly a colossal moron, they've never done anything but write half-baked rules to loosely support the fiction.

If you see something nice you'd like to paint, pick it up. Otherwise, don't bother.

>So getting into the game is cheaper than ever
When one unit box is more expensive than what the battalions used to be, it's a bit preposterous.

Have you even played the game? I did mega battle last month where I had at least 100 minis and the game took like 2 hours tops, which is the average length of an 1850 pts 40k game.

Just because shit isn't on moment trays does not mean the game's simplified system doesn't move fairly quickly, especially if both players are familiar with their armies

You mean the battalion boxes that were about $120 compared to the new start collecting boxes that are $85?

Sure there are some kits that are $100+, but I feel your are cherry picking.

>Have you even played the game?
Well yes.
>does not mean the game's simplified system doesn't move fairly quickly
The game system isn't simplified at all, it's spread out over dozens of special rules for each units, obviously different for each of them. But at least they kept the spirit of WHFB 8th edition : painfully drawn out close combat lasting for turns upon turns, lack of movement play, and special rules galore.

Nice anecdote tho.

>battalion boxes
>50+ minis

>start collecting boxes
>a dozen ones

Somehow GW managed to not be the most expensive maker anymore. PP's models are expensive as fuck right now for some strange reason. Pretty funny considering one of the reasons for me to get into WarmaHordes was it being less expensive than GW shit.

40k requires too much of an investment for new players.

If they were smart, they'd retool the rules and release something like kill team as the core product for 8th edition, with anything over 500 points or so getting a separate ruleset.

I only play kill team now because that's all I'm able to get friends to play. It's like 50-75 bucks for 200-250 points of units, and it's in some ways more enjoyable than regular 40k.

There was some semi-official launch event for AoS here in Germany with massive prize support. In the end it was cancelled because ~3 people signed up for it. I almost felt sorry for the people behind it.

>one of the reasons for me to get into WarmaHordes was it being less expensive than GW shit.
Then you got into it for the wrong reasons. It was never cheaper. At least not significantly.

battalion boxes usually had a bunch of trash models in them. no heroes/mages, no artillery, no heavy cavalry or monsters... just rank and file shit to fill your army.

and they were barely saving you any money from buying the stuff straight off the shelf, and that was only if you ended up using every single model in the box

start collecting boxes give you useful units and save you a ton of money. the seraphon box is the same price as the Carnosaur sprues within, so you're basically getting 12 warriors and 8 knights for free.

>but its picking up steam among a new community of players.
And that makes WHFB fans hilariously mad, at least here on Veeky Forums.

Yeah I'm convinced you are not a player. This is the same arguments I've seen against the game time and time again. You are likely someone who played it once with no scenario just so they can say they played it.

>it's spread out over dozens of special rules for each units, obviously different for each of them
This is not a complaint among the players, because it's not an issue. With the system being simplified, it's easier to remember what your units in your army do. And there is rarely 'a dozen' per unit. Generally it's about 1-2, not counting the command benefits, which are universal among their faction. So if you keep in your faction you already know what all your musicians do and what all your banner bearers do.

>lack of movement play
This is hilarious. Whfb had lack of movement play, but AoS has more movement play than 40k sometimes. With the way wounds and pile-ins working, I see more action on the table. It's not uncommon during the 'painfully drawn out close combat lasting turns upon turns' for positions to shift around on the table like an actual battle might progress. This is opposed to whfb where 2 bricks meet each other, shrink down a little each, then one disappears, then the winning block moves into the opponent's backline. Or kow where neither block shrinks, only one disappears completely. AoS is a game where you see groups of models pile in to each other, shift around as models are killed off or surroinging the lesser numbers. Not to mention what happens when another unit joins in. The hidden strategy in this game lies in how you handle your units movement during close combat.

>and special rules galore
Which are not from the expensive rulebook everyone needs to buy, and all relevant rules are on each army list entry. This is not a bad thing. At least they moved them all to one place and not split up between the main rulebook and army book. With the core stats being reduced down significantly, it's easier to remember what the units do.

good, fuck the WHFB fans, they are the League of Legends of wargaming communities

Oh well I'm pretty sure my 50€ box had both heavy cavalry and artillery.

WHFB never was as big as League was in relative terms. They are more like people who play DotA1 still on battle.net.

>somebody is unhappy that their 30+ year old game is unceremoniosuly dumped
>a few anti-AoS and pro-AoS trolls sling shit to stir up both communities
>LOL THOS GUIS ARE SHITTY COOOMUNITY

Awright.

>its all just trolls trolling trolls, REAL whfb fans arent salty sperglords!!!

Yeah sure, keep telling yourself that

>Whfb had lack of movement play, but AoS has more movement play than 40k sometimes
Did you even read my post ? I'm not praising WHFB 8th edition for its movement play, nor I am praising 40K either. I am even surprised to manage to breathe since you missed my point entirely despite being totally clear :

WHFB 8th edition was shit compared to the previous ones, that's why it failed. AoS didn't even fix its most glaring flaws.

Did you read mine? I outlined how AoS did fix 8th's glaring flaws, because you said that both games had the same flaws, and I disagreed with you.

>Implying a single thing he said wasn't true

So you guys are seriously arguing whether or not WHFB 8th or AoS are more shit? Does it even matter? The difference in quality is minimal.

Some people want to believe that their game is better, even if it really isn't. 6th was the height of WHFB IMO, and it went downhill from there.

Nah, one is arguing that they are both shit. The other is arguing that one is better.

Let me sum up your post
>special rules are not a problem
>AoS has more movement than a shooting game where assault is nerfed to death, and more movement than the worse edition of WHFB
You are saying "how yeah this is bad but we can manage".

Again, you missed the fact that I said that WHFB 8th edition was shit. Total shit. Even fucking flanking was non-existent. Please tell me how strategic is your game where everything, including your charge distance, is random and where you're encouraged not to flank ? Well, AoS is even worse than that, with even more randomness.

But by all means, if you want to play a game that amounts to piling up your units in the middle of the table and shuffling them to fill the holes, do it. Just don't be mad when people point out the flaws of your system and why they aren't playing it.

I miss Oldhammer threads

Your entire post keeps affirming to me that you really only gave the game one shot with no scenarios. You are among the same camp as everyone else with the same stupid 'durr no strategy' argument.

>Just don't be mad when people point out the flaws of your system and why they aren't playing it.
I'm pointing out what people perceive as flaws really aren't even true. The same argument of 'piling in the middle' and 'no flanking' are signs of those not knowledgeable about the game. People who play this game regularly disagree with everything you said because they aren't true. Just because the rules don't have rules for flanking, does not mean it doesn't happen or doesn't provide its own tactical benefits. The battleplans, or scenarios, generally minimalize the piling in the middle, and there is no shortage of variety in those.

The game is not for you, I get it. But don't keep arguing about it like you know how to play.

>Fantasy died. Everyone who played Fantasy moved on to Kings of War or homebrewed a 9th ed.

>40k is a hideous mess. There are campaign books and white dwarf books and countless other places where rules and armies are spread out, costing close to $200 in books alone to run most armies.

>GW is in the middle of the largest FAQ ever. The first draft for general rules is over 40 pages, and thats ignoring codex specific ones.

>Kirby is gone, all hail Roundtree. Roundtree is desperately trying to unsink a sinking ship, but its still too early to see if he's been put in charge in time. Actual bundles are appearing, actual starter models in regular stores (as in regular stores like hobby town or something) using older sprues for a discount is happening, community outreach is happening again for the first time in years, and the ultimate stopgap, plastic 30k, has been pulled out.

>Rumors abound that a serious 40k 8th ed is in the works. Many people are torn on whether it'll be a stable 7.5 thing, just fixing the issues the system has picked up since 6th, or if it'll be a complete reboot.

Its an odd time, thats for sure. No one is really sure what the next year has in store. In general, people are far more optimistic about GW, but as the rules and regular models are still hideously expensive, most still quite havent been won over yet.

It's like seeing your alcoholic piece of shit uncle finally going to therapy and being clean for a whole month. He's made progress, and deserves some praise for that, but you cant shake the feeling that he could relapse at any moment

This is a pretty good post, which sums it all up well.

The nice thing is GW's future definitely seems more optimistic than during the kirby era, but it's still too early to tell at this point, but you can be more hopeful.

have they made any horrible decisions since the leadership change?

People would argue that AoS happened on Roundtree's watch, but these things start moving long before their release, so it was likely AoS and its first 6 months of releases was Kirby's doing anyway. But since AoS is actually doing well for fantasy sales, it could be that it was Kirby's only right decision he made.

But it could also be argued that while Kirby did start it, Roundtree is the one handling it properly.

>Kirby's only right decision he made
I thought the guy was in charge of the company from the mid-90s...

In recent years I would mean. I just remember GW's darkest days where I wasnt thrilled with ANY of their decisions, particularly about the "we are not a game company" switch to strategy, one in particular it looks like Roundtree is abandoning pretty quickly.

>GW gets a reasonable CEO AFTER fantasy died

That is just mean.

I would like to add that everything else would have been a colossal failure. They essentially introduced new armies after all.

They brought out the "space marines win" psychic powers in Angels of Death

>Pretty funny considering one of the reasons for me to get into WarmaHordes was it being less expensive than GW shit
Wat. You're supposed to enjoy memes, user, not to actually -believe- them.

It's interesting that they still haven't tried making 40k a fun game. Like, holy fuck, at the very least stop blatantly favoring some factions over others and fucking the game's balance all to hell.

>The hidden strategy in this game lies in how you handle your units movement during close combat.
And I find this part as the most time consuming part of AoS. Micromanaging each single model.

But anyway, if I understood correctly you say that pile-in moves are the strategic part of AoS? Could you elaborate little bit more. Give some examples?

I myself have tried AoS couple of times (participated in a tournament) and learned that there are some cheap tricks and overpowered units. Didn't find too much tactical depth and games were mostly just random fun.

God, I know. GW would be in way better shape financially if they'd realized the whole thing was a lost cause 5+ years ago