Pathfinder General /pfg/

I'm right here, you know. If you've got feedback I'm always taking it.

All these flavors and you had to be salty, user.

Mystic, Hussar, Bushi, and Ambush Hunter Math is pretty fucked too.

Harbinger is mostly fine aside from the ridiculously high DCs.

>Elemental Flux

Why does this get to be retardedly strong?

Elemental Nimbus and Elemental Flux Stance are fucking stupidly good.

The feedback here Was given several times during the playtest. We have no reason to assume our feedback matters.

Explain Elemental Flux. And Riven Hourglass.

What the fuck happened there?

Elemental Nimbus is only strong if you're IMSAD, but elemental flux stance could have NO bonus damage and be fine.

What's wrong with RH? They nerfed it unto unusability outside of Time Skitter and its stances.

You've gotta remember that half the PoW team refuses to take feedback. ErranxX is basically Ssalarn but worse at writing, and Elric writes things out of spite.

Riven Hourglass?
It's got a handful of strong abilities, but you pay for it by having kinda-subpar the rest of the time. Many other disciplines can give you far more.

No, no I would not.

It's a fox girl in a bunny outfit.

About to start some tomb raiding down in Osirion after spending an hour shopping for equipment for the trip. We left off looking down into a big pit that leads deeper into the tomb. Also the Witch has a new familiar that's totally always been there.

As I recall, Ambush Hunter got reigned in quite a bit, even if there was a bit of regrettable conflict at the time. Mystic got changed to the point of a complete revamp, which regrettably killed one of its archetypes but gave rise to Animus Adept. You're gonna have to elaborate on Hussar and Bushi, I wasn't handling them and all I remember about the latter is contention in the fanbase about its recovery method.

Nerfs? /pfg/ complained rather extensively about them.

It's not uncommon. Maybe she got cursed by a genie or something.

Considering the stuff he said in the thread it sounds like he wasn't putting tons of effort in because he had no incentive to.

He works full time, so his time spent at home could be spent
-With wife
-Recreation
-Working on a PF supplement that he's been paid for (Battle Lord, Vigilantes of Skyborne, ect)
-Working on a PF supplement that he wont be paid for until 1-2 years down the line even if he completes it today (Arcforge

So he shouldn't be writing arcforge at all!

Wouldn't that be why it's transferring to another company?

Apparently so. Good luck to him, but I'm glad we don't have to deal with that in DSPPF games now.

Well now, since DSP never paid him or signed a contract with him, he can find another publisher (so far he's done work for DDS, Amora Game, and Rogue Genius) to pay him in a timely manner for his work and thus have the actual incentive needed to finish and fix Arcforge.

Good for him.

Since all Path of War 1 disciplines will be scrutinized as part of errata, let us see what can be done with a 5th-level warder who is forced to automatically trade in all Path of War 1 disciplines (especially Primal Fury and Scarlet Throne) for others.

We will be using the dreige because Gareth insists on reprinting it in Lords of the Wild, but a half-orc with the Mighty Frame feat from will also do.

Level: 5th
Race: Dreige
Class: Warder (ordained defender, zweihander sentinel)
Ability Scores (25 point buy): Strength 17+2+1+2, Dexterity 12-2, Constitution 12, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 16+2, Charisma 7

Key Trait: Reactionary
Feats: Power Attack, Furious Focus, Martial Charge
• Equipment: Belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), +1 full plate (2,650 gp), Large +1 lucerne hammer (2,330 gp), cloak/corset of resistance +1 (1,000 gp), 450 gp

Domain/Inquisition: Conversion (use Wisdom in place of Charisma for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate)

Five maneuvers readied:
1st: Riven Hourglass: Minute Hand
2nd: Eternal Guardian: Fear the Reaper
2nd: Riven Hourglass: Rapid Strike
2nd: Shattered Mirror: Obsidian Razor Style
3rd: Shattered Mirror: Reflected Blade Style

Key Stance: Elemental Flux Stance

This character has initiative +6. Their attack bonus is +12, or +14 when charging. They deal 3d6+10 damage plus 2d6 energy damage with each swing of their hammer, or 3d6+16 damage plus 2d6 energy damage with a Power Attack.

At the start of combat, they can use Martial Charge to move 40 feet and use Rapid Strike with Furious Focus and Reflected Blade Style. This creates two attacks, one at +14 and one at +12, each dealing 3d6+16 damage plus 2d6 energy damage. If both hit, that totals an average of 67 damage on *each* enemy.

This is enough to instantaneously take out two CR 5 or 6 enemies, which is outrageous for a 5th-level tier 3 character.

A 9th-level zealot (destruction) with Rapid Current is even more disgusting, even without Path of War 1 disciplines:

Eyebrows!

Ambush Hunter needed a change in focus, its still too high on damage since Elric thinks flanks are a mystical unicorn.

Mystic ignores most spells by turning them into Stalwart will saves, has amazing damage, and can buff the party as well as a bard with bonuses that are rare so they stack with almost everything. They don't need to be full BAB when lots of standard action strikes are better than full attacks.

PoW:E math is SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT
The only good thing DSP ever published is Psionics, which is only good because they mostly didn't touch it and just ported it instead. Though some original stuff like Living Legend is neat.

Bonus: Against a single especially powerful enemy, this warder can use Obsidian Razor Style in place of Reflected Blade Style, giving them +5 damage on both of their Rapid Strike attacks.

In later rounds, the warder can launch a swift action attack with Minute Hand, and near-perfectly counter an attack with Fear the Reaper.

There is absolutely no way for, say, a 5th-level Paizo-only barbarian to even start to compete with such a character's turn one burst potential, and such a character would be a dedicated combat specialist. The warder would beat such a barbarian's noncombat utility by having the Conversion inquisition and useful utility stances.

This. Some of the PoW stuff is good, but a lot of it's a mess. The original stuff is much better.

>the great original stuff is written by the person who wrote some of the more balanced and good PoW E material
>coincidence?

Forrest is the only good writer in DSP. Everyone else is an incompetent shitter who couldn't into math if their life depended on it.

Forrest even responds to feedback about mechanics being broken by saying he'll look into and change stuff!

Better than literally every other DSP staffer.

She, not he, user.
But I do agree.
Forrest would be better off in another company. A shame that working at DSP is a red letter.

At this point I may just play 3.5 with PF's skill system.

Hello everyone! A new version of the "Unchained" Fighter is here. I have added a few things to it, and would love to see opinions! These new things include several new Advanced Equipment Trainings and Advanced Armor Trainings.

In addition I have added two archetypes, adapting them to the "Unchained" Fighter. These are the Mutation Warrior and Lore Warden, becoming the Mutation Master and Lore Master. Much of these archetypes are lifted directly from what they were before, merely with a few new features and rewritings to make them work with the new class. Honestly I am a little unsure of them, so lets see together how they are!

Also now you don't have to go to the link to see material. I include with this a handy dandy PDF.

docs.google.com/document/d/1twEab3PBHvzMLTrx_UJak4P9g5avkvVaZfrBiMPI-6s/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to comment using the link above. I'm on phone so the PDF may not work.

>Working at DSP is a red letter

???

Right, she. DESU, given how much she likes psionics, I'm pretty sure she's happy where she is.

>Iomedae will never thrust her "justice" upon you

Why even live?

>???
A couple weeks ago, an user on /pfg/ was explaining industry views on 3pp publishers. Essentially, working for DSP is a mark of shame and most publishers won't employ you after that.

>Right, she. DESU, given how much she likes psionics, I'm pretty sure she's happy where she is.
To be fair, I don't even know why she writes for Pathfinder when she doesn't actually like Pathfinder and plays other games instead.

Yeah other companies don't like DSP much.

Because hearing loss isn't as fun as it sounds?

To be fair, it's not surprising given how toxic DSP writers tend to be when it comes to public relations. Like that Adam Meyers ogrening.

>as it sounds
Oh, you.

>To be fair, I don't even know why she writes for Pathfinder when she doesn't actually like Pathfinder and plays other games instead.

According to discussions in the irc, she plays pathfinder, 3.5, 4e, 5e, roll for shoes, and occasionally naruto d20/d20 future/d20 modern/urban arcana (yes really).

Adam Meyers was being a retard there so...

[citation needed]

You do know we're a team, yes? All of us essentially live in each other's pockets. Everyone helps everyone else out, including in terms of paying attention to the threads, communicating feedback to the appropriate writers, handling math & grammar, the whole nine yards. Forrest's been an invaluable member of our team; she's brought quite a bit of insight, perspective, creativity, and raw utility (Praise Layout, Dread Their Names) but she doesn't work alone. None of us do.

Noted, and passed along. Obviously it's a bit late to make direct changes /now/ (esp. with our arms in up to the shoulder in PoW errata) but it's something to keep in mind as we're moving forward.

It's been nearly a year of you throwing a fit about RBS, 2hu, and you remain the only person in four different communities to be upset about it.

[citation needed]

A lot of other companies' writers keep trying to copy DSP's stuff, especially Drop Dead.

Now, a zealot (destruction) without Path of War 1 disciplines. This character only comes online at 8th-level onwards, so we will be using a 9th-level zealot in this example. We will be using a half-orc, so there is no need for any of Gareth's races. Ghost syrup and Leadership will not be used, but can be added as desired.

Level: 9th
Race: Half-orc (fey thoughts, sacred tattoo, either burning assurance or unflinching valor)
Class: Zealot (destruction)
Ability Scores (25 point buy): Strength 16+2+2+2, Dexterity 12, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 7, Charisma 16+2

Traits: Fate's Favored, Irrepressible, Unorthodox Method, drawback of choice
Feats: Noble Scion (War), Combat Stamina (bonus), Focused Discipline, Mighty Frame, Combat Reflexes (bonus), Martial Charge, Psionic Weapon (bonus), Quick Draw
• Key Equipment (38,550 of 46,000 gp spent): Large deep crystal +3 greatsword (19,400 gp), circlet of persuasion (4,500 gp), belt of giant strength +2 (4,000 gp), headband of alluring charisma +2 (4,000 gp), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (4,000 gp), +1 full plate (2,650 gp)

Martial Tradition: Cagebreaker Brotherhood
Disciplines: Elemental Flux, Eternal Guardian, Mithral Current, Piercing Thunder, Sleeping Goddess
Convictions (extra two from FCB): Combat Conviction, Personality Fragment, Impulsive Reactions, Psionic Conviction

Six maneuvers readied:
2nd-level: Degrade Resistance
3rd-level: Intruder's End, Iron Lancer's Edge
4th-level: Disruptive Wave, Energy Hammer
5th-level: Rapid Current

Stances: Iron Pikeman's Attitude, Unbroken Stride, Elemental Flux Stance, Enter the Vortex

Initiative: 4 Charisma modifier + 3 competence = +7
Charging attack bonus with Focused Discipline: 9 BAB + 6 Strength modifier + 3 enhancement + 1 competence + 2 morale + 2 charging = +23
Base damage with Focused Discipline: 3d6 Large greatsword + 9 Strength modifier multiplied + 3 enhancement + 2 morale + 1 untyped from Psionic Weapon = 3d6+15 damage (average 25.5)

>but she doesn't work alone. None of us do.

>Ssalarn
>Elric
>Forrest, with Fool's Errand

What's wrong with ignoring most spells?
Casters do it all the time, and they often don't even need to make a save to pull it off.

If you think standard action strikes are better than full attacks, you are showing a catastrophic lack of understanding towards this game's mechanics as a whole.

This zealot normally strolls around in Elemental Flux Stance. They open up combat by activating their deep crystal weapon (2 power points), Focused Discipline (2 stamina points), and Iron Lancer's Edge (swift action). They then use Martial Charge to move 40 feet, activate their Rapid Current strike, and spend 3 power points on Storm of Steel to target "all opponents within a 15-foot cone or 20-foot line originating from the zealot." They expend Psionic Weapon upon the third attack.

First attack: 3d6+15 base damage (average 25.5) with critical 19-20, plus 8d6 damage (average 28) plus 2d6 energy damage (average 7)
Second attack: 3d6+15 base damage (average 25.5) with critical 19-20, plus 5d6 damage (average 17.5) plus 2d6 energy damage (average 7)
Third attack: 3d6+14 base damage (average 24.5) with critical 19-20, plus 4d6 damage (average 14) plus 2d6 energy damage (average 7)
All of the above ignores damage reduction X/cold iron and X/silver, and the first two attacks ignore up to 4 points of damage reduction and hardness

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3
The average AC of a CR 11 monster is 24.8, and the average hit points are 144.8. Thus, if this zealot can catch two or three CR 11 enemies in that cone or line and they lack a relevant energy resistance, there is a very high chance that they will all be slaughtered, even if they do have damage reduction 5.

Why is a zealot allowed to perform such a feat of encounter-ending on demand?

A 9th-level barbarian, a dedicated combat character with minimal noncombat utility, cannot hope to compete with this destruction zealot.

>buildposting being done
And that's an erection.

You're back? Where did you go?

You fuckin kidding me? RBS is broken as shit and we said so in PFG and GitP. Just cause you ignore feedback doesn't mean we didnt make it.

You again?

Gareth, you shouldn't have said how long you were leaving for; If this user thought you were gone for good, he would've lost his reason to live!

How's this for PoW houserules?
>initators can no longer full attack unless they use TWF
>initiators instead gain an optional free scaling "vital strike" that can be used with strikes that replaces their iterative.
>you can't benefit from a boost and strike at the same time unless the boost specifically calls out being used with a strike
>the number of d6's of all strikes/boost/stance add to damage is reduced by half(minimum of 1d6, round down.)

>It's been nearly a year of you throwing a fit about RBS, 2hu, and you remain the only person in four different communities to be upset about it.
Pretty sure she's not the only one, you just don't listen.

...

If you haven't found the multitude of standard action strikes stronger than full attacks the you haven't actually read the disciplines.

Just remove full attacks for them entirely. Don't give them a vital strike. Let them keep boosts and strikes. Force them to recover and ready strikes if they want offense.

>It's been nearly a year of you throwing a fit about RBS, 2hu, and you remain the only person in four different communities to be upset about it.
Really? I mean come on dude. That is paziodrone levels of la-la-Ia-cant-hear-you!.

>open new thread excited to pitch an idea
>Gareth came back, entire thread is full of the same bullshit he left because of in the first place
>can't even remember what I was going to pitch now

Reflected Blade Style effectively takes the most outrageous thing one can achieve with a strike and then multiplies it a second time upon a single enemy.

Thus, a 5th-level warder, warlord, or what-have-you who is one-shotting a CR 5 or 6 enemy with a Rising Zenith Strike or a Rapid Strike can go, "I would like to one-shot a *second* enemy as well," and then eliminate that second opponent instantly.

The 5th-level warder build posted above relies on Rapid Strike for a first-turn nova, and the 9th-level zealot uses Rapid Current.

After they open up with such strikes, they can then full attack as needed. What makes full attacks inherently preferable to such multiattack strikes themselves?

Bear in mind that such characters are outdone by their Path of War 1-using counterparts who can use Scarlet Throne 2's Rising Zenith Strike and Scarlet Throne 5's Ruby Zenith Strike, which blow Rapid Strike and Rapid Current out of the metaphorical water.

>Why is a zealot allowed to perform such a feat of encounter-ending on demand?
Because they're good at fighting, 2hu.

>A 9th-level barbarian, a dedicated combat character with minimal noncombat utility, cannot hope to compete with this destruction zealot.

That's because the Zealot is better at fighting, 2hu. Obviously. You did the maths, How is this a difficult question.
Try to keep up.

That's it?
Decent but not spectacular DPR, but gets to be an AoE at a fairly notable resource cost?

Yeah really. I think it's more that 2hu posts about it literally every time he's around though.

But user, that kills some character concepts. I'm still trying to leave some space for people who want to make a rapid attacker.

That being said, I think killing of classes/abilities that can attack and recover at the same time with no disadvantage would be good. No Warlords, Zealots, or Mystics.

For the best, no one was going to care anyway. No I'm not being an ass, I mean they would ignore you in favor of arguing over 2hu and weeaboo nonsense.

>It's been nearly a year of you throwing a fit about RBS
I was bitching about RBS the moment people decided they were gonna make Broken Blade and Primal Fury the Path of War whipping boys.

>Add maybe 150 to one attack
>OR deal another 4d6+28+4d6+Boost another four-five times.

Uh, user...

I don't think anything quite the works you way does think it.

If someone wants to be a rapid attacker, there are strikes for it. Mithral Current, Fool's Errand, Thrashing Dragon Style line.

Wow, it's almost like 4E figured this out years ago.

I don't think any class gets all of those natively unless they make some tradition up monstrosity.

They still have to spend a shit ton of feats on TWF tree.

I KNOW RIGHT

A 9th-level zealot with Charisma 18 has 35 power points per day, and they have spent 5 power points to activate their deep crystal weapon and their Storm of Steel.

This character has spent 1/7th of their daily power points, and once the encounter has subsided, all of their stamina points and expended maneuvers will return to them.

Is this not rather excessive for what is supposedly a tier 3 character?

Also, this AOE is taking out a 15-foot-cone or 20-foot-line of CR 11 enemies with a very high success rate, in one turn.

Can a 9th-level Paizo-only barbarian come remotely close to such an achievement? That is not a rhetorical question; what offensive stunts that barbarian do on the level of this zealot?

Everyone can swap any discipline for Fool's Errand for free.

Fool's Errand is free and Mithral Current is on plenty of stuff.

I think that's more of a problem with Deep Crystal weapons being OP as fuck, like they always have been.

Also, stamina? Why would you be using the stamina system. Not defending the zealot, but seriously what.

A min-maxed blaster sorcerer leaves this in the dust.

And ALL the ones that don't have any full attacks, or get none until like level 7 strikes, will, what, sit around wondering why their class is literally disallowed from doing as much damage in a round as any other martial? Why, because "they're sorta like casters"? Even though the casters will be able to do more with a pathetic fucking fireball?

People ignore strikes as a source of damage because if you just full attack with even a measly fucking fighter you'd KILL the target, whereas using your strike leaves the target alive and possibly even well.

>Bushi weeb template that probably isn't appropriate for most classes
>Mystic, with a fucked up recovery method
>shitty archetypes with stilted progression

>Deep Crystal weapons being OP as fuck
Phht, burn some PP for a tiny bit of extra damage is OP now? I bet you think psions are OP because they outdamage evokers.

Neither Elric nor Forrest (not even in that case) have worked alone. As the leads for various projects, sure, definitely. But alone? Nah.

I don't say this to denigrate Forrest's work or leadership. PsiAug: Occult has been turning out amazing and that's in large part because of both.

> Implying either Ghost Syrup or Leadership are a reasonable expectation or anything we have the slightest control over
> Further implying that we could have anticipated Unchained and that Stamina is in use at all tables

I'm not gonna say the numbers aren't high, 'cause they clearly are, but you draw this comparison as if we're prophets or gods instead of, I dunno, designers. People.

I took two weeks off to find my head.

Did you? Most of what I remember from Mirror's test was about things like Silvered Mirror Stance (which was insane; only death will erase my shame), Equivocate, and the Waltzes.

I prefer my readership alive, user.

Shock and awe, the thing designed to let you hit more than one enemy lets you hit more than one enemy. How could I have ever anticipated such a thing? It's almost like I made it do that on purpose with the understanding that folks into optimization and folks not into optimization would use and value it in different ways or OH WAIT WE HAD THIS EXACT TALK ALREADY.

More or less, yes.

See previous comment regarding Unchained, its timing, our inability to anticipate or in fact do anything about it, and the bit where Stamina is a variant system.

Do they even?

>Actionless nova damage by pouring pp into it

Yeah uh.

2hu, do you ever, y'know, suggest anything?
Serious question, I usually scroll past without checking.
But do you ever suggest a fix for all this shit you complain about?

Because the ones that don't have more in combat mobility/utility and out of combat utility and are still having more fun even if they aren't FUCKING DELETING an enemy as hard as the fighter.

Usagimimi shota you say?

A wizard evoker yeah.

I think a Sorcerer pulls ahead of them now because of Blood Havoc shenanigans, but I think sorcs always pulled ahead of them because DAZING FUCKING SPELL.

At a much higher resource cost to outdamage them, yes.

>this class is significantly more powerful that another class in every way.
>it'safeature.jpg

>More DPR than any other class is capable of, on top of having much better defenses, utility, durability, etc.
>Thisisfine.jpg

>making shit up

Said sorcerer will be paper thin, with no skills and a shit spell list.

No, they don't. They just go "THIS IS BROKEN, WHY IS IT STRONG, FIX IT"

Look, if you can't take out a CR+1 in a single turn, and you're supposed to be a primary combatant, you're not doing your job.

You might be having fun, but we still need to worry about balance here; the guy using "but I'm just being in character" as an excuse for why his mage keeps hitting friendlies with the backblast is having fun as well.

But at the very least the character should be viable at what they're supposed to do.

We can swap out stamina feats for other feats. Improved Initiative and Greater Psionic Weapon would be good candidates.

I can repost the build without stamina feats, if you would prefer. The zealot would be able to take out only a 15-foot-cone or 20-foot-line of "only" CR 10 creatures, but that is still impressive.

Only a fool would attempt to use mid/high-level full spellcasters as a balance point.

On a tangent, I have a 5th-level Paizo/Spheres-only blaster build that similarly dismantles and any all combat encounters they come across, while also being a reasonably competent skill monkey, scout, and party face. Those interested in such a build can view it here: archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/48382763/#48382882

> Implying either Ghost Syrup or Leadership are a reasonable expectation or anything we have the slightest control over
I was never blaming you for either. I simply avoided ghost syrup and Leadership feats so as to better highlight the zealot's potential on its own, and preemptively answered why I left such out.

> Further implying that we could have anticipated Unchained and that Stamina is in use at all tables
Again, I can recreate the build under Improved Initiative and Greater Psionic Weapon rather than Combat Stamina and Focused Discipline.

>Shock and awe, the thing designed to let you hit more than one enemy lets you hit more than one enemy. How could I have ever anticipated such a thing?
Then you should have anticipated it being used to let a 5th-level character one-shot more than one enemy at a time with a powerful strike.

>shit spell list
>I take fireball
>I'm done
You're still a Sorcerer with 2 sell levels of "not fireball" to not need skills.

>>making shit up
A lvl 8 Crossblooded/Mutated Draconic/Orc Sorcerer with a lesser rod of quicken, Spell Tattoo (Fireball), Spell Specialisation (Fireball), two metamagic cost reductions on the Fireball, and one further +1 CL boost (say, orange Ioun) can deal 234 average DPR in one round when novaing, assuming two failed saves.
117 if both saves succeed.

more than one at a time, you mean like a room full of goblins and a fireball?

>Look, if you can't take out a CR+1 in a single turn, and you're supposed to be a primary combatant,
Isn't putting an end to One Rounding things being the expectation a good thing?