WTF I hate the Thousand Sons now

Granted that thanks to the Emperor the two option Magnus had for long term career seem to have been

1. Semi-vegetative voiceless paralyzed agony for the rest of time

2. Become a Tzneetchian

It's hardly surprising he took option 2. Russ coming to remove any real possibility of claiming option 1 probably helped.

Add to that the Emperor being stuck in Semi-vegetative paralyzed agony and it becomes amusing.

I like both.

Both Ahri and Magnus had good intentions but fucked up hard
Now they just listen to "NIИ - Down in it" all day

It is worth mentioning that the psychic barriers around Terra wouldn't have been breached without Magnus's help so if the Emperor had sent Russ to do this job right away that wouldn't have been an issue.

Really, both sides were wrong. Magnus needed to trust the Emperor, Russ needed to question the reason he now had the fight he was spoiling for.

Magnus is, afterall, the clearest example of why the Emperor kept his sons in the dark.

It's also worth mentioning that 3ish primarchs ever saw the future. Kurz saw it all the time, and was right about it up til his death. Magnus saw shades of what Horus saw (a galaxy enslaved by a mad arcane religion) and it came to pass because they tried to prevent it. Russ predicts the Wolf Time, the day when he will return to save the Imperium.

It's worth mentioning that no primarch has ever been wrong about the future. And there are still alot of primarchs unaccounted for who might rise up when the end comes (though they probably won't call it the Wolf Time)

I like both. Fluff is not a contest, user.

> Magnus needed to trust the Emperor
The Emperor intended to get rid of Magnus from the start. His intention was always to get rid of all other psykers aside from himself. Trusting the Emperor would just have ended up getting Magnus liquidated later down the line once he had outlived his usefulness.

I always assumed he intended this for all his primarchs and space marines eventually.

>good intentions
their intentions were entirely hubristic

no amount of crying will change the fact that, at its core, their reason is "I am right, and everyone else needs to admit that I'm right"

So just like the Emperor then.

Of course. Once the primarchs and the legions had finished conquering the galaxy for him, step two was to kill everyone greater than a standard human, meaning all psykers, all space marines, and all the primarchs. That way the Emperor could rule over humanity, and the galaxy, totally uncontested. The problem was that navigators and psykers were necessary for FTL communication and travel, hence the human webway project. Once that was done, the Emperor would be free to exterminate all psykers and navigators.

The more you read about the Emperor the more you realize he was not a clever man.

Quite aside from the moustache twirling villainy.

except who being an arrogant idiot you mean?

the emperor was fighting to free humanity from the jews, so everything he did was morally justified

magnus and ahriman did what they did for entirely selfish reasons

>the emperor was fighting to free humanity from the jews

So he could become the biggest jew of them all and jew uncontested

> so everything he did was morally justified

Except for the shit that was baffling in it's stupidity even to the extent of working against his plans

>magnus and ahriman did what they did for entirely selfish reasons

So just like the Emperor then.

What the hell, really? I'd never heard about that, though given how he fucked up the Thunder Warriors as soon as He figured out how to make better ones that makes far too much sense. Damn, just when you think you can escape the grimderp, they pull this stupid shit.

In one of the HH books, there's an area inside the Imperial Palace with a buch of Primarch-sized houses arranged together in a secluded place. It's implied to have been intended as a sort of "Primarch retirement home". So he wasn't planning to kill them, just stick them in some apartment complex in the cellar of his palace. Which to be honest would probably be worse for most Primarchs.

Peace comes, and you'll be forgotten. Isn't that what being a hero is all about?

>1. Semi-vegetative voiceless paralyzed agony for the rest of time

If you're referring to Magnus powering the Golden Throne, it would not have killed him at all. In fact, Magnus considered being singularly chosen to power the Golden Throne to be an incredible honor, as it meant the Emperor entrusted him with the single most important role in the entire Imperium - powering the Astronomicon.

All of this is spelled out when Magnus breaks through the Webway and psychically communes with the Emperor.

what about robert guillymen and the entirety of the ultramarines who were being groomed for life after war

Because the idea of encouraging them to actually use their potential and aptitudes constructively never actually at any point occurred to the Emperor.

Perty was a master of industry, Vulkan was a master craftsman and metallurgist and Ferrus was the best at cybernetics. Their talents were wasted as mere warlords. If they had enrolled in the Mars Priesthood they could have risen through the ranks and reformed the Mechanicus into a scientific powerhouse rather than 50% cargo cult 49% mad scientist club 1% dragon worship.

Guilliman, Fulgrim and Malcador between them could have created a perfect administratium.

Curze, if given somewhere with no loud noises and nobody makes sudden movements around him, could have enacted much needed reforms in the judiciary and constabulary forces of the fledgling imperium.

Dorn should have been appointed as royal architect and told to design fortifications for all of the things.

But no. All primarchs got shoved into the Warlord job regardless of whether they would actually be able to deal with that shit.

Oddly the only one who was planning for when the war was over was Logar who encouraged his dudes to find hobbies that didn't involve war. Erebus made wine.

I love vikings, I hate Spess Woofs.

I dislike SORCERY FUCK YEAH, I love Magnus.

Rubric Bitches win in my book.

Magnus will never be Sanguinius, though. Good night, sweet prince.

I imagine the novelty of that honour would have worn off after the first few centuries.

I love vikings, I like Space Wolves.

I like sorcery, I don't like the primarchs hurt feelings or primarch wank. Everyone has a shitty life in this setting and Magnus is just the one that gets a soapbox to whine on.

Almost all primarchs and their dad had that going for them.

>It's also worth mentioning that 3ish primarchs ever saw the future

You forgot Sanguinius.

Did you pull all that out of your ass by yourself or you have something to back it up?

Nah, is just like your room at your parent's home, a place for Primarchs to chill out when they were visiting daddy.

I think you guys are missing one really important point.

The Emperor was a massive, massive softy. No, really: He was incredibly soft-hearted. He takes Angron and Kurze not because they're 'useful', but because they were his sons and he loved them.

Like, Angron actively hates his fucking guts and cannot be controlled. The Emperor holds off from killing him, and lets his Legion handle him - In fact, he lets Angron run amok - while anyone else would simply kill Angron.

He knows Kurze is fucked-up, but he does everything he can to help him. Except Kurze is stuck in the trap of prophecy, and can only bring about his own doom.

Then when the Emperor is fighting Horus, the thing that stops him from crushing Horus is that he doesn't want to kill his son. While the fluff has changed over time, it's pretty clear that Horus was barely drawing even with the Emperor even with all the powers of Chaos in him, and the big softy - despite everything riding on this - just couldn't bring himself to do it until there was absolutely no hope.

Remember, the Golden Throne isn't a problem. Sitting on it is NOT a full-time job. The reason why the Emperor is stuck on the Throne is because he's holding back a horde of daemons. If Magnus' job was to power the beacon, he'd have done it with no real difficulty and get to hang out with Dad.

Hell, the Emperor created an entire Legion for the main purpose of riding off into the sunset and firing taped-up AK-47s into the air. (The White Scars.) He basically gave the Khan the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do, and the Khan was forever grateful to him for that. It was the equivalent of giving a kid a supercharged motorbike for his 18th birthday, because you're his father and you love him.

You don't know that. Plenty of the Primarchs showed aptitude for duties that could be performed outside of War. We know the earliest found Primarchs like Horus, Fulgrim, and Ferrus were taught at the Imperial Palace in a great deal of things and they forged friendships. There isn't any reason to think that in the conditions that He had planned for on Terra the Emperor wouldn't have taken the time to hone each of his sons talents both for war and for peace.

The simple fact is that the kidnapping of the Primarchs and the effects that their home worlds had on them wasn't something the Emperor could compensate for effectively. Two Primarchs had to be killed outright. Primarchs like Angron, Lorgar, Konrad were drastically mentally scarred and became useless in their intended peace time roles. Nearly all the others were negatively influenced away from their intended purposes or made vulnerable to Chaos by their Cultures.

It's worth mentioning that the two who had to be killed likely had to be killed for very good reasons.

No-one, not even the Primarchs who turned to Chaos, has a problem with the two guys being killed. Even Lorgar of all people accepts the necessity for it. The best bet is that they were either badly, badly mutated or were raised by xenos.

Magnus is the one who really planned for when the war was over, his legion would have just continued as normal; reading and research, archeology, making wine, acting as police\doctors on prospero,

The funny part is, the 1K sons book by Graham McNeil is really, really awful. But the book by Abnett is amazing. It illustrates just how insanely scary the Thousand Sons are.

Like, it's revealed that Wolves used every advantage they had, and they still died en masse. Also, the Thousand Sons are depicted as morally superior in the fight, in that they did everything they could to avoid the battle. It's all caused by a tragic misunderstanding.

Then there's cool stuff like centuries-spanning intrigue, agents brainwashed from birth, and so on.

Is that twice every hour, or once every two hours?

>It's all caused by a tragic misunderstanding.

That's a nice way to say that Russ is an asshole

bamp

...

Thousand Sons losses were significantly higher than Space Wolf losses though

Russ' orders fro the emperor were not; bomb the planet and murder the civilians, the TS weren't going to fight and would have gone quietly.

No, both legions are decimated but due to lower numbers the TS obviously end up with far fewer. the TS lose like 8,700, a lot of which was due to an explosion. The wolves losses are not stated but considering their post heresy losses and the emphasis on how many died in the books they lost over half.
They were fighting people who can melt you with a thought and disassemble your tanks with their minds.

Those were the orders Horus passed on to him, however, which he thought he got from the Emperor.

And Alpharius & Omegon, and Horus. Shit, that was the final straw that cause him to go full Chaos, he saw life post-heresy. How the Loyalists were venerated and the Emps was treated as god and he was nowhere to be found.

Thus far everyone has indeed been correct. I'm sure there's others that have had visions of the future as well.

The one thing the idiots never understand is that the future is caused by their own choices.

Kurze outright goes: "Look, Sanginus. Fucking shiv me in the heart. Show me that destiny can be averted."

Sanginus thinks it's a trick, and passes on the opportunity.

Wow, all that bullshit of you. Emps plan was to lay ground for a all-psyker-race, he wanted humanity to step up the galactic game. So everything you just said is plain wrong.

>Magnus is, afterall, the clearest example of why the Emperor kept his sons in the dark.
Magnus is one of the clearest examples, after Erebus and Horus, of why the Emperor should have mentioned the primordial and eternal evil that he had personally slighted and had used to create the primarchs.

The Emperor's single biggest and most consistent flaw was that he created a band of super-humans to prosecute his war and then proceeded to consistently distrust them and treat them like shit.

>Ahriman totally didn't cast the rubric to save his legion, he did it entirely to prove how right he was
>Ahriman totally didn't try to fix the rubric at the cost of his own soul in order to save the legion, he did it to posthumously prove how right he was
Fuck off. Ahriman is definitely guilty of hubris, and post-Heresy he's also super ruthless, but his goal has always been the betterment of his brothers.

Christ, even Magnus, colossal moron that he was, was led to damnation by his desire to save his sons from an issue that the Emperor was either ignorant of, powerless to prevent, or apathetic to.

Because races that are 100% psykers have such a good track record in 40k.

If anything making the entire species even more susceptible to Chaos was stupider than trying to genocide all other psychics.

...

flesh change was one of the more blatant retcons to give magnus some pity points

The TSons were more interesting when their problems were solely caused by psychic mutation and how the Imperium didn't really have the tools to handle it like they do in 40k.

What part of

>Space Marines exist to protect mankind

did you not get? Magnus broke taboo to vindicate himself first and foremost. If he was actually considerate of the Emperor's will and the greater destiny of mankind at large, he would have taken the long road and ordered his entire legion to head to Terra for the inevitable siege. To serve the Emperor is to be loyal.

Hell, look at the Ultramarines and Calth. They were literally fucked in the ass because Guilliman obeyed the Edict of Nikea against the reservations of many, but nevertheless he obeyed the Emperor and only rescinded the Edict after the revelation of Chaos.

Sorry for the colossal sized meme

The books said that where he was planning on RAISING them. On terra. You know, before they were fucking kidnapped by Chaos.

You're not getting it. Magnus sitting on the Golden Throne effectively means he is praised as being in the right for now and all time. Magnus loves nothing more than to be right.

> confusing retard logar for based Magnus
Get the fuck out.

Does no one remember how Guilliman purposely organized his legion with the aim of converting captains into planetary governors and space cop superintendents after the Great Crusade? One of his quotes is basically

>after you're done fueling the great crusade, you'll fuel the culture

Nikea was a massive mistake. All of the Primarchs that weren't fucking retarded came around to this stunningly obvious realization.

Magnus did use sorcery to vindicate his methods, but he also did it try to avert disaster. The edict was an awful idea, and the means that Magnus used, consorting with warp powers, were ones that he had been forced circumstantially to use before to apparent effect and were also methods that the Emperor had used.

> Thousand Sons was bad
> Prospero Burns was good
Are you high. Prospero Burns was SHIT. It was a shit author doing a shit job of shoving based Michael Crinton's AWESOME book into 30k because 'lol DEY BOTH ABOUT VIKINGS AND SHEEITTT lol'. Abnett fucking sucks.

That would assume that the Emperor was ignorant of the possibility of putting down Primarchs and whole legions at some point. Two Primarchs and their legions were already exterminated prior to Nikaea. Everyone knew that rebellions were a possibility in the near term which would require military deterrence. The Emperor's true error was that he believed that the perfection of his Primarch sons' genes ensured their near total faultlessness.

Unfortunately, over half of the Primarchs he created turned out to be flawed, ranging from psychologically troubled and beyond hope to flaming retarded.

>wet leopard growls

>Ultrasmurf governors forever
Poor populace, wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I'll take that as a yes, you are high.

Magnus fell to Chaos because of circumstances and Horus's machinations. Had Russ not gone full retard, Magnus and some remnant of the Thousand Sons would have been on Terra to repel the final invasion, instead of at the invasion supplementing the traitor forces with sorcery.

Several other primarchs also feel due to a mixture of Word Bearers infiltration and preferring Horus over the Emperor. Had Lorgar been prevented from falling, the Heresy never would have happened or at least never would have involved anywhere near as many primarchs.

The fact remains that it was not his call to make. Nikea basically states, "do not fire unless fired upon, and not a moment earlier" There is no clause in it which states, "If you think the Emperor is retarded, breaking this rule is absolutely fine."

The Lion broke the rule, and he wasn't censured. The Blood Angels broke the rule, and they weren't censured. The Ultramarines broke the rule, and they weren't censured.
>"do not fire unless fired upon, and not a moment earlier"
If you're going to be stupid, at least be correct when possible. The Edict just says "no psychic shit." There is no clause about psychic shit being okay once Chaos is involved. It can't say that, because the Emperor was stupid enough to think that if he just ignored Chaos it would stop trying to fuck with him, so he decided not to tell any of the primarchs about it.

Magnus fell to Chaos because Magnus dabbled with the warp to the point where he believed that he was the special snowflake in the classroom. Put plainly, he let it go to his head.

The other legions were circumstantial but most of them share the same signs of a psychologically compromised leader, a homeworld which rebelled, disturbing Legion policies and trends of questionable effectiveness, and a perceived slight. The only real exceptions (besides the Thousand Sons, which were entirely the fault of Magnus and Ahriman) are the Emperor's Children due to lol possessed sword and the Sons of Horus due to grand conspiracy.

>The Lion broke the rule
And look what happened to his homeworld. Play with fire and get burned.
>The Blood Angels broke the rule
Sanguinius being the biggest patron saint in the Imperium might have had something to do with the Blood Angels receiving special preferential treatment
>The Ultramarines broke the rule
The price was Guilliman had to destroy his own Legion, which inevitably cost him his life

Magnus fell to Chaos because the Flesh Change forced him to consort with Chaos and because Russ showed up and decided to murder him rather than follow the Emperor's orders. There's a reason anti-Magnusfags always leave out the specifics and stick to retarded generalizations.
>inb4 outdated fluff about Horus lying rather than just supporting Russ's personal inclination to go full murder

The Edict disbanded the Librarius, banned librarians, and instructed all legions to institute policies which punish psykers who do not obey the Edict. Psykers who feel they have no other choice in a battle situation than to invoke their powers are subject to punitive punishment, but it nevertheless remains an option. The psykers who invoked their powers on Calth were ultimately shunned and forced to congregate elsewhere, but they were not executed on sight as heretics because people ultimately understood that they acted out of loyalty in highly dangerous and unorthodox situations.

This is the clear difference between Magnus and everyone else. Magnus did it preemptively because he ultimately wanted to be right, above anything else.

>Magnus fell to Chaos because the Flesh Change forced him to consort with Chaos

Fill in the blank: purge the alien, the _____, the heretic.

>Magnus fell to Chaos because the Flesh Change forced him to consort with Chaos

Why didn't he talk with the Emperor about it instead of screaming for help to the Warp until Tzeentch answered and took his soul as a price?

Also Russ went against Hrous's orders. He wanted to take Magnus back alive.

Blood Angels were the biggest mutants around.

Magnus did it because the warp was roiling thanks to Chaos machinations. He couldn't reliably reach Terra in time for the warning to matter. Same reason Guilliman ended up doing his whole Imperium Secundus thing.

Magnus wanted to be right, but he was also doing the right thing (trying to warn the Emperor). His methods were flawed, but the primary consequence of Magnus' sorcery could have easily been prevented had the Emperor told his sons about the Webway Project. Hell, the Emperor could have just warned Magnus about Chaos and prevented it as well.

Which was the reason why Sangy kept the mutants of the Blood Angels a secret from the Emperor.

And they decided that they would rather die in service and good faith to the Emperor than to consort with the horrors of Old Night just to fix their "mutations".

He hid the Webway project from the Primarchs because he knew they would leak its existence to the navigator guilds.

Then the Spice Won't flow.

Magnus's methods were heretical, and he knew it. He decided he was willing to pay the price for it, without fully understanding what that price was. The price was in fact 10k years of reaming the Emperor in the ass and the guaranteed 'End Times' which befalls the Imperium now.

Book nonsense. If the black ships can find enough psykers to feed the Golden Throne for 10k years, then the Emperor certainly had the power to replace the Navigator Guilds. Furthermore, the Great Crusade was in its waning years and a slight delay of a thousand years due to labor union disputes and strikes wouldn't have stopped it.

>Why didn't he talk with the Emperor about it instead of screaming for help to the Warp until Tzeentch answered and took his soul as a price?
How was the Emperor possibly ignorant of the problem? There are a lot of blanks left in the Great Crusade in terms of what happened early on.
>He wanted to take Magnus back alive.
Yeah, opening with an orbital bombardment really screams "please come with us peacefully."

Russ was ordered to retrieve Magnus and the Sons and bring them to Terra. Horus and Russ decided, fuck that, let's murder them all.
Sanguinius and his legion were nearly lost to Chaos due to the Red Thirst, and, Signus aside, the Red Thirst never struck with anywhere near the ferocity of the Flesh Change. Incidences of the Red Thirst were limited to a handful of isolated cases throughout tens of the thousands of astartes. The Flesh Change very nearly wiped out the Thousand Sons. Their name isn't figurative.
What happened at Caliban isn't even remotely related to the Lion discarding the Edict to combat Chaos.

Guiliman's death at the hands of Fulgrim has absolutely nothing to due with him discarding the Edict.

So he can trust the primarchs to prosecute the Great Crusade entirely without supervision (except Lorgar), but he can't trust them not to immediately rat him out to the Navigators. That's utterly retarded.

>The Flesh Change very nearly wiped out the Thousand Sons.

He should have let them die. There was precedence in not one, but two instances of failed legions exterminated for the greater good.

>Yeah, opening with an orbital bombardment really screams "please come with us peacefully."

Then why did he beg Magnus to surrender peacefully through what he believed was a psychic spy?

>How was the Emperor possibly ignorant of the problem?

He was ignorant of the Blood Angels mutations. Sangy believed in the Emperor found out, then he and his legion would join the two in oblivion.

The only reason why the Emperor agreed to Nikea is because he needed a bit of time.

That's it. That's the big secret.

He just needed everyone to calm down and do their own shit for a century or two, then he could finish the Webway project and everything would be fine. It's all a stopgap measure until it's done.

But shit fell apart faster than anyone could ever predict.

Wouldn't the Astronomicon be obsolete if the Human Webway was completed?

Tzeentch showed him the future where he is trapped on the Golden Throne. He was wasted and in intense agony.

This was his fate if he allowed Russ to capture him.

If he just needed more time then that was a stupid way to go about it.

What he should have done was say

Hey kids, looks like we've got a big fucking empire. Now comes the hard work of consolidating it and making it stick.

Russ, Angron and Khan. You three are on rapid response. I want your Legions broken up and spread evenly across the realm so you can quickly put down rebellions anywhere with great haste.

Dorn and Perty. You guys and your guys get to designing and making fortifications. You will be our peoples shield against the dark.

Rest of you are on garrison duty. Take in the local cultures, sample the wine one day the wars will be over so take up a hobby you can one day make a life out of. Learn to have fun and relax a little.

It's only temporary. When we've made the Imperium a cohesive whole rather than just an amalgamation of conquered territories we will do Great Crusade 2: Mop Up Boogaloo and take the rest of the galaxy from a much expanded and stable starting point.

I'm going back to Old Earth to learn how to administrate on an unprecedented scale. I might be some time.

He almost did exactly that, except for one crucial detail. He delegated. "I'm going back to Terra to manage this monster. Horus, take over."

Hindsight's a bitch.

Tzeentch showed him the future of modern 40k. The same as was done with Horus and Lorgar.

>Then why did he beg Magnus to surrender peacefully through what he believed was a psychic spy?
Because the Space Wolves have shitty writing and always have. Why did he open with a bombardment despite no offensive or defensive actions being taken?

Everything about the "psychic spy" was retarded, like the rest of Prospero Burns the the Vlka Fenryka.
>He was ignorant of the Blood Angels mutations
Sure, but the Blood Angels weren't nearly wiped out and suffering heavily from their mutations while they were still on Terra.

Don't mind me. Just the best primarch coming through.

Malcador told Mortarion that Nikaea was a sham, the out outcome was always going to be "Emperor bans the legions from using psykers, full stop" no matter what was said at the council. Because that's what the Emperor wanted. The webway project was intended to remove the need for the warp, and thus for psykers, which would allow him to get rid of them. Nikaea wasn't a stopgap, it was a preview of what the Emperor had intended the whole time.

Yes, because that's what happens NOW. If Magnus is ever captured, they're going to stick his ass on the Golden Throne so they can free the Emperor.

>stick a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch on the golden throne
>expect anything good to come out of it
In your defense, that level of retardation is completely in-character for the Emperor.

It should be noted that he told Mortarion all of this well in advance of Nikaea. Mortarion was complaining about other legions using psykers, and Malcador told him to cool it because the Emperor was going to have a council at Nikaea where he would announce a ban.