The North Remembers Edition

just imagine mace tyrell say that.
Only based mannis can say something this awesome and not come off sounding like a tool

The Freys are a big family. For all we know, they could have simply been told that by someone higher up. It's kind of retarded they'd believe that, but it could be the case.

In the possibility that they know it's a lie, or that they're making it up themselves, then they're defending their family. Wouldn't you defend your family, even if they were shitheads? The Freys had been dishonoured by the Starks, and are now going through horrible dishonour because of what they did at the Red Wedding. It's reasonable that they'd want to try to avoid too much blame. It's not good or moral, no, but it's reasonable if you put yourself in their shoes.

>Wouldn't you defend your family, even if they were shitheads?
Would the Freys support their lords even if they're traitors? Nope, they should have reported themselves to the crown & be rightfully punished.

No, there is no mention of any of them in Catelyn's chapter.

The likeliest one to be there was Jared Frey, since he gives the lie.

Rhaegar and Symond were likely innocent.

>Reminder not to enable the Freyfags.
t. emotionally stunted baby.

Is the concept of an idea that goes against your world view so strange and ugly to you? If so, I'd recommend a certain website called reddit, where I think you would fit right in.

Ironically enough even /got/ was better than this (at least before it was overrun with pedos). They at least could entertain ideas that went against the grain, without shitting their pants in rage.

After five books, it seems to me that people still do not get that in aSoIaF there are no objective good and bad guys. There's no Sauron, no Voldemort, no Hitler. There are only people, doing what they think is justified, and if that idea offends you that much, maybe try re-reading it

>The Freys had dishonoured themselves by being late to the call multiple times, and are now going through horrible dishonour because of what they did at the Red Wedding
>It's unreasonable that they'd want to try to avoid justice
The guest right is honored by all, even lawless lands.

>/got/ was better than this (at least before it was overrun with pedos)

I recommend everyone read this post.

I'm surprised in you /asoiaf/. You're letting your Stark-goggles get the better of you. Look at things objectively.

Yeah, they didn't have conniptions over proper discourse

>Look at things objectively
Shit house who refuses the call multiple times now backstabs. In ASOIAF, they are a house no one wants to be friends with. Even the Lannisters try to stay away from them.

This. There is little objective morality in ASoIaF but for Christ's sake the Frey's routinely demonstrate they're shifty, backstabbing weasels who'll choose whichever side they think will kiss their ass better. Martin makes it very clear they're almost all totally unlikable and dishonorable.

Reminder that Tywin Lannister mastered the art of teleportation & got back from the Tyrells fast enough to save King's Landing. GRRM realized that Robb was winning & that he had to change that or it'd be another "Boy avenges dad" story.

Again, you're refusing to see it through their eyes.

What if the rebellion is crushed, and the Lannisters come calling for payment? Should Walder Frey risk himself, his children and his grandchildren, his dynasty and his castle because of "loyalty"? Would you?

>who refuses the call
this series isn't about a praise for feudalism, it's a criticism of it. So what if the Freys ignore "high lords"? The idea of a feudalistic supremacy is stupid.

What if the rebellion isn't crushed because the north was actively winning until suddenly it wasn't.

>What if the rebellion is crushed, and the Lannisters come calling for payment? Should Walder Frey risk himself, his children and his grandchildren, his dynasty and his castle because of "loyalty"? Would you?
>What if the rebellion is crushed, and the Lannisters come calling for payment?
Then they'd be punished nonetheless for being oathbreakers & scorned for disloyalty. After Robert's Rebellion, many such as Varys were lucky to have been advised not to be executed.

>betraying your friends is okay as long as you're a coward

If Walder was so concerned about the Lannisters trying to cash a check then he should've just refused to let Robb pass all together. He threw in with Robb because he thought it was a winning strategy. Then Robb reneged on his extortion deal (which granted was foolish) and went right back to being a good little boy for the Lannisters.

Gurm ain't that great at distance.

Euron can basically just sail wherever the fuck he wants in the space of a couple years. People in the North can traverse great amounts of distance and terrain in short amounts of time(Wyman, loyal fat fuck that he is, took like...a week to get to Winterfell?).

I mean, hell. Victarion just sorta shows up in Mereen after all this talk about how far away it is. Moreover, all the sieges, battles, campaigns, and what not have taken place in like...one...two years?

Call no man happy until he is dead.

No man can see the future. I'd remind you that by that point, Robb was just a 14 year old boy with no victories at all, his father declared a traitor and imprisoned underneath the Red Keep while Edmure was captured and Riverrun was besieged. Things were looking pretty grim indeed.

I actually do think that the baking them into pies thing was pretty unnecessarily vicious, but that unfortunately the Freys broke guest rights first and thus don't get to complain when someone else does the same to them.
When everybody plays by the rules, usually everyone continues to do so. When you act like the rules don't matter, then neither will anyone else towards you because you've just states that the rules don't apply and you don't care to follow them.

Tywin knew that shit and that's why he had Bolton and Walder do it rather then taint the value of his own given word of guest right, which is very useful political tool.
>"Robb transformed into a wolf & killed us first"
I still can't believe THAT was their explanation and excuse.
Literally a child could think up something more plausible and believable then that.

The freys throw their lot in with robb then, and then robb captures jaime and becomes undefeatable and the north is actively winning their war.

>this series isn't about a praise for feudalism, it's a criticism of it
This is something many get wrong. ASOIAF at first tears down things like loyalty & honor but also the problems with the lack of such. Cersei getting backstabbed, Dany struggling to rule her end, etc. When Tywin died, his legacy was a drunken whore of a daughter failing to rule. When Ned & later Robb died, they men still remained loyal & even planned to put a Stark back in charge.

Wyman never broke guest right. he had them made into filling after the freys were given their farewell presents. He was particular about that.

Better neutral than an open traitor.

Because he had just been royally fucked.

Let's look at it from his perspective

>be promised marriage deal with Robb
>send off heir with 4000 sized army
>heir dies; army surely takes losses
>Robb reneges on deal, essentialy meaning that all those men died for nothing

And remember this; Robb was planning to abandon the riverlands and go north, to kick out the ironborn. So now, Walder not only went traitor, not only lost his heir and some men, but is now without protection. This could mean his head, could mean the end of his dynasty

Being neutral makes you traitor to both.

>Better neutral than an open traitor
>better traitor to all then traitor to one

IIRC more than a view advisers at King's Landing suggested giving Robb exactly what he wanted. All things considered his demands were reasonable: give me my family, give me my dad's body, give me my sword, and let me have dominion over that stretch of land you all think is a barren piece of shit anyway.

Joffrey and Tywin weren't having that though.

ASOIAF is a straight criticism of feudalism, no way around it. No line encompasses this ideal better than
>The high lords play their games and the smallfolk pay the price

I know, my point being that if you act like a horrible cunt to people they WILL act like horrible cunts back, period.
This is the single most verifiable thing the human race has ever univereally demonstrated aside from the fact that we are all carbon-based bipeds.

The smarter thing to do would have been to poison Robb and have Walder sacrifice one of his trillion sons to do it as a scapegoat, which removes Robb as leader and leaves the treachery obvious but harder to obviously pin on anyone.
But Tywin probably ordered the total massacre because he REALLY loves sending his bloody messages to people who repeatedly vex him.

>4000 sized army
>4000
Unless you're Stannis before/after obtaining/losing Renly's Baratheon men, that's not really much compared to the bigger armies.

Not at all reasonable. If they surrender to his demands, that means that soon enough all the high lords will be clamoring for independence as well, and there goes your kingdom

It was 1/4th of Robb's army, they supplied the most men of all

It actually is fairly reasonable politically and many kingdoms in real life have done things like that.
Tywin however is a strong proponent of absolute and unwavering authority of rule and thus it wasn't really in him to accept a compromise like that.

Despite all the show's faults, I am still a big fan of the soundtrack. Lots of the themes work well for characters in the book as well, it's great to read an extract of a chapter with Djawadi's music in the background.

Asha music-
youtube.com/watch?v=niQoEPGvtHk
Theon music-
youtube.com/watch?v=nRNXZH5vh-A
Victarion music-
youtube.com/watch?v=J8Jxwm-VWhg
Euron music-
youtube.com/watch?v=mzkqA4-4jIM

>a straight criticism of feudalism
Lets take a look at the non-feudal ruled lands. The Wildings are a murderous bunch who only banded together under Mance Rayder because of the Others. The Vale Tribes even practice some sort of democracy despite being savages & even Tyrion thought their system was queer. The Free Cities have slaves everywhere & shit like that.

>1/4th of Robb's army
Robb numbered about 18,000 before the 4,000 Freys. It's slightly less than a 1/5.

It isn't at all reasonable. The bones, the sword, all that jazz, OK, but letting go of like 1/4th of your kingdom (remember, he asked for both the North and the Riverlands) is a recipe for a short reign

Ramin Djawadi is actually a professor of music at my little sister's college. I keep meaning to send her back with my hardback copy of ADwD to see if she can get him to sign it.

One lord being responsible for 1/5 of an army is a pretty big thing.

It is okay user, I got you.

At least the best girl got the last dance.

The intro is fucking awesome. No matter how shit the show is.

>he criticizes other systems
>that means he isn't criticizing feudalism

GRRM has said in an interview that in his opinion democracy is the best system possible (obvious allusion to this is Braavos, which has no slaves and is widely considered the strongest and richest free city)

So about Varys' riddle:

"In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me—who lives and who dies?"

What is the answer?

Yep, it's a sack-crap world. Slavery is criticised, feudalism is criticised, democracy during the Kingsmoot it criticised, and even capitalism is criticised with the seedy bits of Braavos.

The alternatives to these systems are also shown to be quite crappy, as you've mentioned wildlings and Vale tribes, but also Daenerys' form of military liberation in Meereen is criticised, showing that it's not easy to overthrow a social system.

If GRRM has thought of a better alternative to these systems, he's yet to have shown it in the story so far. But the message here definitely isn't "feudalism is the best of a bad bunch", since that is the system GRRM criticises the most.

What are you on about? By the time of the Red Wedding Robb Stark was the most successful living commander in Westeros and Edmure was in the Twins fucking his new Frey bride.

While Walder's decision to bring the Freys over to the Lannister side could be defended as a man doing what he thought was best for his house, the Red Wedding is not something that can be defended. And Walder Frey was a fool if he thought Tywin was going to waste any of his time or gold trying to do so.

Pretty sure Braavos is also like...the murder capital of the Free Cities.

What I'm saying is that GRRM's criticisms extend too far to say "a straight criticism of feudalism". In fact, people did rather well under Aerys' rule thanks to Tywin being the Hand.

That's sometimes true and sometimes isn't.
The North is very distant and traditionally is removed politically and socially from the southron realms in addition to not really being very profitable due to it's lower population and thus tribute from it is rather light.

A smart compromise would be to have done everything EXCEPT full autonomy, and instead offer them semi-autonomy like Dorne where the head of House Stark gets to still be "the King in the North" and pay vassalage to King's Landing while remaining politically autonomous, which basically changes nothing except a few names and titles.
You could then arrange marriages between allies and the Northern Houses and the Starks, tying them to you over time.

This is a REALLY effective long-term method, enough so that it actually made the Targaryens and Martells close enough allies that the Martells are willing to go to war to avenge them despite the fact that the first acts of defiance Dorne ever did were cutting off Aegon I's right hand man's right hand and killing his beloved sister-wife, not to mention all the other fucked up shit they did.

He answers it - power resides where men believe it resides. The only reason a king is king is because people say he is king, nothing more, nothing less. All three of the men in the riddle are incredibly powerful, yet their lives rely on the whims of lowborn scum, just like all the lords and ladies rely on, say, Littlefinger or Bronn.

>But the message here definitely isn't "feudalism is the best of a bad bunch", since that is the system GRRM criticises the most.
It isn't a "feudalism is all bad & constantly sucks" either. I'm saying that ASOIAF criticizes it & plenty of others too. Even with all its critiques, it isn't purely anti feudalism.

He already explained it. Power is but a concept, a trick. It can be utilised only by belief. If men believe you to hold power, you are powerful. If they don't, you are not.

The sellsword isn't the one with the power. It is whoever can make him believe they have power.

>I actually do think that the baking them into pies thing was pretty unnecessarily vicious,
It's part of the joke, he's referencing the Rat Cook who cooked the King's son into a pie and fed it to the King.

the whole point is that there is no single answer, who people listen to, who they obey is controlled entirely by their own values, their own desires, their own fears Varys said after that line "power lies where men believe it lies" it was him pointing out to Tyrion that you don't need titles, money or martial prowess to have influence, you just need to know what people want and how to get it for them

Bravosi everywhere having swordfights to whoever thinks Nightingale isn't the prettiest, Faceless men there, etc.

They needed a show of loyalty, just like Manderly "executed" Davos. Sure, they overdid the orgy of bloodlust, but there was no way Robb was coming out of there alive
Renly offers Robb those terms, but the problem is Robb wants 100% autonomy, no strings attached

If I'm remembering right, Renly wanted to offer that deal to Robb.

The issue being that there is a difference between full autonomy and almost full, and by that point, the Northern bannermen were already on board the independence train.

I wonder if Robb wanted the independence as much as his bannermen. Saying no to his bannermen wouldn't be a great choice under his circumstances.

Well it certainly won't be the merchant, he was dumb enough to bring his gold along and the sellsword is getting it whether the merchant lives or dies.

I joked that Shagga wouldn't chose the merchant, he could kill him & take the gold. Maybe the King wants the gold in his treasury or the priest wants it for his Sept or whatever.

I thought the problem was that a vagina shadow killed Renly shortly after negotiations began?

That as well, but Catelyn thinks to herself that she wasted her time coming there and that Robb would never agree

Then the sellsword is going to side with the first one who lets him keep it.

2 rewards>1 reward.

A Robb and Renly alliance could have been interesting. Then we could have had five associations between the Starks and Baratheons

>Robert and Ned
>Renly and Robb
>Stannis and Jon
>Gendry and Arya
>Mya and Sansa

I wonder what if Balon somehow decided to ally with Robb. He'd never do so but I say a Stark & Greyjoy alliance can definitely defeat the Lannisters & maybe even hold their own against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

Balon could pretty much hold up most of the Lannister forces in the Westerlands by raiding and attacking the coast.

Yeah, if Robb was smart he could have taken it and it would have worked.
Okay, correction; if Robb wasn't a teenager and too young to see that compromise isn't weakness yet, it would have worked.
Teenagers are inherently stupid still even when they're smart ones.

Tywin should have stealthkilled Robb using the Freys as a scapegoat and offered the same to his SUCCESSOR. That's a message everyone would have gotten I think, and during that time a lot of northron Bannermen were getting tired of the war.

I can never understand Balon's strategy. The North is pretty vast & unless he's psychic, he can't predict Theon's little fluke.

He didn't fucking have one.
His entire thing was to raid and loot and burn shit as the Old Way proclaims and then by doing that somehow the fucking Ironborn would be powerful again.

Balon, like most of his family, like his entire goddamn culture, is a goddamn Lord of the Rings orc intellectually speaking.
Euron's just the first guy to realize that orcs obey Sauron.

Ever heard of Dalton Greyjoy? Know what happened to him?
The North is traitorous so the other kingdoms won't help it, I expect that he intended his daughter and his grandsons to conquer the entirety of the western coast of Westeros eventually; but the North was just a start

This is dumb

Just because moral greyness exists doesn't mean the freys and boltons aren't 99% scum

I'm not saying the Starks were perfect either but all the arguments defending the freys fall flat, it's just devil's advocate posturing

They are lying murderers and they are getting what's coming to them

>The North is traitorous so the other kingdoms won't help it
Robb even offered to ally with him. Besides, even House Martell would side with Golden Company.

From their perspective they were doing the only thing they could to survive

My point was that was the reason he attacked the North. Robb isn't expecting an attack and he's a traitor; Tywin surely is and he's got the other kingdoms to back him up (The Reach might make common cause because they still have bad memories of the Ironborn)

I think he did mostly because he felt insulted by Robbs letter

Nah, they were already making plans to invade the North, Robb's offer wouldn't have made a difference

False

Did any of the other houses pull a red wedding? No

The freys did, because they had ambition but lacked the power to achieve it, instead all they achieved was dishonor and ruin

>and he's a traitor
These are the Ironborn who think poorly of the southerners & have been trying to obtain independence for a long time.

>only thing they could to survive
If anything, violating the guest right fucked them up hard. No one wants to be associated with them ever since, even the Lannisters are wary of them.

Because none of the other houses except the Karstarks were insulted the way the Freys were.

If Robb didn't shove his dick in any hole he met he wouldn't have had a dog's head sewn on him

What is the point of this post? They're not attacking him because they're loyal to the Iron Throne, but because he's vulnerable

>none of the other houses except the Karstarks were insulted the way the Freys were
>If Robb didn't shove his dick in any hole he met he wouldn't have had a dog's head sewn on him
I doubt that. If Robb came home married to Margaery Tyrell & with Tywin captive, they wouldn't backstab them. I say it's because Robb is losing & they hope that the Lannisters'd favor them.

I'm not defending Robb, he made some pretty big mistakes

But that definitely doesn't justify what the freys did

Also you're simply incorrect, many many other houses had much more serious disrespect shown to them in the story

The lannisters raped and pillaged all over the river lands but at the end of the war, did any of them plan a red wedding for Jaime or Kevan?

No, because they have honor

The freys have no honor, it's why they were never as powerful as they wanted to be and its why everybody will always hate them until they are wiped from the planet

>Robb isn't expecting an attack and he's a traitor
>and he's a traitor
Robb had houses Stark & Tully. Prior to the Tyrell alliance, Tywin had Baratheon & Lannister. Robb was even winning up until a certain point.

Well obviously, it's two birds with one stone. But if he kept his part of the deal I doubt Walder would have unmade his daughter queen of the north. Even if Robb loses his grandson is still Lord Paramount of the North

>did any of them plan a red wedding for Jaime or Kevan?
Um, Jaime even says that he doesn't trust the river lords, the only reason they don't is because they have hostages. Barbrey Dustin even tells Bolton this

Losing? At that point he was about as FAR from losing as possible.

>But if he kept his part of the deal I doubt Walder would have unmade his daughter queen of the north
I'm not so sure about that. The Starks were losing after Edmure's fuck up, Winterfell lost & more. Roslin marrying Edmure didn't help a single bit.

They were engaged in the south, and the ironborn captured Moat Caillin, the only way in and out of the north. The westerlands don't have a terminus point like this

Um, dude. Are you even reading what I'm saying?

I say that Robb was losing around the time the Red Wedding happened. Before then he was doing damn good, capturing Jamie, shit tons of Lannister land & goldmines & putting some real pressure onto Tywin.