MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - Tuesday Bluesday Edition

Good morning boys and girls, welcome back to Ask A Judge!

Is this the casual thread?

It's mostly the "ask rules questions" thread. If you just want to discuss Magic casually there's no issues there, but if you were wanting deck help or something, I am about the last person you should be asking.

I stop by here way more than I should. But whenever I actually have a judge question, I end up forgetting before getting here. So I usually end up just asking stuff that I am pretty sure I know the answer to, but need confirmation.

Anyway, with the existence of manifest, why has Ixidron's rules text not been updated? Seeing as a 2/2 face down card can be two different things now.

I've only just started Magic recently, and I've been wondering what would happen if I ended up doing an infinite combo, because I'm thinking of getting one rolling with Archangel of Thune. So say I gain life, which allows me to put a +1/+1 counter on my creatures, and another creature I have makes me gain life whenever a +1/+1 counter is put on it. How does this resolve? Do my creatures gain infinite toughness and damage whilst I effectively gain unlimited health when damaged?

What do you mean? As in why doesn't it differentiate between Morph and Manifest, or as in why does it only turn creatures face-down?

That depends. A truly infinite combo is one that you can't stop- playing Oblivion Ring when the only nonland permanent on board is another Oblivion Ring, which has exiled an Oblivion Ring, for example. That creates an infinite loop that will just keep going without anyone's input, and you can't make a different choice to stop it, so the game ends in a draw (assuming nobody chooses to use an outside-the-loop choice like a Disenchant to stop it). This would be your proposed combo; you gain life, which triggers Archangel. Archangel triggers and puts a counter on your guys. Your guy triggers and gains life, which triggers Archangel, etc. Unless your "whenever counters, gain life" trigger is optional, this will just keep going over and over again because you have no other choice, and the game will end in a draw.

For something you DO have control over, like Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder, how it works is that you demonstrate one iteration of the loop (in this case, "Remove a counter from Feeder, gain 2 life, put a +1/+1 counter on my team") and what you got out of that iteration (net gain of a +1/+1 counter on everything but Feeder, and also 2 life). Then propose a shortcut- "I perform this loop 200,000 times, so that my creatures other than Feeder all have 200,000 +1/+1 counters, and I gain 400,000 life". So long as your loop is repeatable, you can demonstrate it, and you know the exact number of iterations it takes to get to your desired end state, you can just shortcut to it. You do have to pick an actual number, though- "infinite" is not a number of loops you can shortcut.

Thank you. But why is it that an infinite combo I have no control over, like the one I proposed ends in a draw? Is that just a rule in the Mtg rulebook?

I mean, why doesn't it state that they are "morphs" and not manifests. Or is a face down creature with no morph cost not a morph either?

More questions, Captain's Manuever and similar effects don't turn combat damage into noncombat, correct? So using that card, you could theoretically have a creature with Quietus Spike deal combat damage to its controller?

Sorta. It's because of how the game works: Priority. Most actions you can take voluntarily (playing a land, casting a spell, activating an ability) require you to have priority. To advance to the next step or phase in a turn, you have to pass priority to your opponent, and have them pass it back, with nothing on the stack. To resolve an object on the stack, you have to pass priority to your opponent so they have a chance to respond, and then they have to pass back without responding, for the topmost object on the stack to resolve.

So, let's go back to the "two things triggering each other back and forth" thing. You gain life, which triggers your Archangel. You pass priority to me, I pass back, trigger resolves. That triggers your other guy. You pass priority to me, I pass back, it resolves. That triggers Archangel. We can't ever move past this step. This loop will just keep going, so the stack will never be empty again, so we can't possibly move forward with this game, so it ends in a draw. Now, if it's possible for one of us to break it (say, I have a Doom Blade in hand), we can choose to, but I can also just let it be a draw if you were winning. I'm not FORCED to use something outside the loop to break it- grok?

It doesn't state that because "morphs" aren't a thing, insofar as face-down stuff. A face-down card on the battlefield is a 2/2 with no name, no color, no subtypes, and no abilities, no matter WHY it's a face-down card on the battlefield. Things that have Morph can just be turned face-up again because of Morph, and things that were put face-down via a Manifest action can be turned face-up because of Manifest, but there's not an 'inherent' difference between three creatures that are face-down, even if one was Ixidron'd, one was cast with Morph, and one was Manifested. They're just "face down".

As for your other question: Captain's Maneuver just redirects the damage. The source is still the same. So, yes.

>things that were put face-down via a Manifest action can be turned face-up because of Manifest, but there's not an 'inherent' difference

Oh. I guess the reminder cards are just that then. That makes a lot more sense.

As for Captain's, neat. As I figured. Maybe I could find a space for In Harm's Way in one of my EDH decks for that shit.

Speaking of, what happens when shit like me activating an ability during the turn of someone who controls Grand Abolisher goes unnoticed until way later? Nothing? Warning for both players?

Yeah, the little reminder things were mostly just so everyone would remember which things were Morphed and which were Manifested to prevent issues.

That depends. If you knew they had an Abolisher and were activating it to see if you could sneak it under them, you and I will have an unpleasant conversation that rhymes with "Smisqualification".

If you just had a legit brain fart, it'll depend on when it's caught. If we can rewind to before the violation occurred without doing too much damage to the game, we'll do that, give you a Warning for Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation, and your opponent a warning for Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State. If it's caught after enough stuff that rewinding would be more damaging than just leaving as-is, the infractions and penalties are the same, but with no rewind.

Understood. Now, if I genuinely brain farted, but I did notice it when we could feasibly rewind but didn't point it out, is that a DQ too? I've often noticethese sorts of things (in casual MTG, no DQs) right as I announce, but the person is already going through the motions and I am embarrassed.

In regards to cards like Dispense Justice or Smite, removing all creatures from combat, say via a bunch of Hollowhedge Spirits, does that stop Smite from having a valid target and stop Dispense Justice from doing much of anything (as you don't have any attackers now?)?

If you notice that something in your game has gone wrong, and you keep quiet about it to avoid penalties/gain an advantage... that's bad. Possibly DQ bad. You should call attention to ANYTHING incorrect in your game the second you notice it.

If you remove all your attacking creatures from combat, Dispense Justice will still resolve (because it does have a legal target: "Target Player"), but it won't do anything.

Thank you for answering my question regarding the infinite combo! I'll make sure that if I have any questions in future I'll remember to visit these threads

's why I make em!

Not a rules question, but I just remembered a bit of a funny rules situation from the EMN prerelease.
>everybody is seated
>getting ready to start
>store owner gets up
>Okay, we had a lot of issues with this at the midnight prerelease so I'm going to say this up front
>Escalate spells
>you can only choose each mode once regardless of how many times you pay the Escalate cost
And then in the fourth round my opponent tried to choose a mode multiple times.
Do you think the Confluences somehow affected how people think about Escalate or is it something inherent to the keyword?

Maybe confluences, maybe "I want it to work like that so I'll ignore common sense".

I'd say it's a mix of Confluences, and "I want it to work this way". It might just be the new bullet-point formatting mixed with being explicitly told you can choose more modes by paying more mana. It's one of those mistakes that I can say "Oh okay, I see how you could make that assumption".

How exactly do Goldnight Castigator and Embermaw Hellion interact? Do you double first then add 1, or add 1 then double? Also, just checking, but does Goldnight Castigator's effect apply if I do damage to a planeswalker? Sorry for the noob questions but I got into mtg when my friend gave me a bunch of cards.

Both of them are trying to replace the same event (damage happening to you/your shit). As the controller of the affected shit (or the affected player), you choose which one to apply first. If you apply Hellion first, you'll add 1 to the damage. Now, Castigator's effect can still apply to the modified event, so it does; it doubles the 'new' damage. So 3 damage becomes 4 becomes 8.

You can also do it the other way around, applying Castigator first to double, and then applying Hellion's +1, so 3 damage becomes 6 becomes 7.

Castigator CAN affect the damage dealt to a planeswalker, but only if you're stupid, and only for non-combat damage. If your opponent attacks your Planeswalker, there's nothing for Castigator to do, since no damage is being dealt to you or to it.

If your opponent chucks a Lightning Bolt at you, there's two replacement effects again: the one for Castigator to double, and the one for your opponent to choose whether to dome your planeswalker, or you. You're the affected player here, so you apply them in the order of your choosing. If you're smart, you apply your opponent's Planeswalker Redirection first, and make them announce whether it's hitting you, or your planeswalker. If they choose Planeswalker, then Castigator's replacement effect no longer applies, and your Planeswalker takes 3. If they decide to hit you, Castigator can still apply, and you take 6. If you apply Castigator first, the damage gets doubled to 6, and then they can either have you eat the 6 OR your planeswalker. Grok?

If you control TNN who has protection from your opponent and your opponent mindslavers you, can they make TNN attack or block or activate any abilities it may have?

Mindslaver does not target the Nemesis, and everything they're making you cast during your turn is controlled by you, so they can use him as they please.

Protection from the named player means that TNN cannot be Damaged, Enchanted, Equipped, Fortified, Blocked, or Targeted by anything controlled by the named player.

Mindslaver does none of these things to TNN, and thus protection does not stop it.

Okay. Thank you for explaining.

If I have Freed from the real attached to arcanis can I tap and untap as many times as I can in response to something?

Sure. You can tap Arcanis, then untap him and repeat as many times as you are able to pay the activation cost for the Aura.

What's the most confusing card as far as rules interactions in your opinion?

Life. And. Fucking. Limb.

That or Selvala, but most of her stuff is "look at me being intentionally obtuse with Selvala teehee" rather than "Oh good holy fuck what have we done", which is much more common with The Accursed Enchantment.

L&L looks fairly straightforward to me, what causes problems?
>The Accursed Enchantment
Is that what i'm thinking?

Nah, Life and Limb is the accursed enchantment.

It LOOKS straightforward, but it's really easy to get it involved in a dependency, and explaining those to players can be... frustrating.

This is probably a stupid question, but for cards like Take Inventory and Galvanic Bombardment if I cast them from the graveyard with Jace, Telepath Unbound or Goblin Dark-Dwellers they don't count themselves, do they?

They're moved from the graveyard to the stack when casted so yeah, they don't count anymore

Also, what about with Harness the Storm?

They do not. When you cast them from the graveyard, they go from the graveyard to the stack, and the stack is where they remain until they resolve or are countered/removed by something else. They can't be in the graveyard AND on the stack.

Same deal. If you have a Bombardment in your grip and one in the bin, and you cast the one from your hand with Harness on board, Harness will trigger and cast the one in your graveyard for free. As it resolves, it is not in your graveyard, so it won't count itself, and will only do 2 damage. As the original resolves, it'll do 3 damage, because the one you pulled from your graveyard is back in your graveyard now.

Okay, thank you for clearing that up.

>for free
I whish

Jesus christ, I thought it was for free!

This card is terrible.

Hey gA, how's your life going?

If I flicker prodigal sorcerer with Brago, and I have strionic resonator/sol ring available, am I able to do a hilarious amount of damage to my opponent, or do I need to give it haste first?

>how's your life going?
Fairly well, thank you! Had a great weekend playing Commander.

>Question
You'd need a haste enabler, because each time the Sorcerer comes back, you haven't controlled it nonstop since the beginning of your most recent turn.

Or you can skip "haste" and just use Thousand-Year Elixir.

Can you explain why it's terrible? I don't actually play magic, I just find the rules interactions you clarify here fun. I would think it was a good card with my limited knowledge.

It's not really terrible, it's just... worse than I thought it was. It lets you get extra value out of spells you've already used, but still having to pay for them just makes it a bit more awkward.

>Fairly well, thank you! Had a great weekend playing Commander.
I did too, glad to hear it. I crushed my pseudo-spike friend so hard he's going to start net-decking Mizzix to try and get back at me. I felt kind of bad, until I realized that he also wants to build Nekusar.

Also, Thousand-Year Elixir fits exactly what I want Brago to do, that's awesome, and it has the built in untap for 1 mana. That's a spicy suggestion, thanks so much.

Bleh, Nekusar.

But yeah, I got to test out the Ruric Thar deck I threw together last week for another game, I got to play 3 of my other decks, I got some good trades in. I'm hashing out ideas for a couple other decks right now.

>Ruic Thar
Oh, you're that user? Awesome, did it work the way you thought it would? I have a ruic thar, I think that's what I'll build next, then smash that and my Meren deck together to make Jund whenever a half-decent commander who isn't prosh comes out.

Yeah, it worked great honestly. My decks tend to lean a bit reactive and defensive, so building an aggressive, proactive deck was an interesting turn, and it's actually posed pretty well in my meta. Now, the stupid-ass Winter deck might fare a little worse...

Ah, we`re opposite playstyles. I usually build value into aggro, but building Brago stax/combo was a neat experience. I wish you luck on your winter deck, you might have to start shoehorning in awkward metaphors about Uwezawa's Jitte being the winter of their discontent or some such nonsense.

Nah, so far I actually have enough cards to build the initial run, but some of them are a little... underwhelming to fit the theme.

I danced around dipping into red for a few more Glacial/Snow/Frost cards and Rimescale Dragon, but I don't know if it's worth it.

What's the subtheme again? Are you building stax with Winter Orb, Frost Lynx and whatnot, or is it some yet-to-be-defined clusterfuck at the moment?

It's like... partially Stax? Due to stuff like Winter Orb and tapdown stuff, but it's far from being a GOOD stax deck. It's mostly just... winter themed.

See, I can't build good decks, all I can build is theme and tribal.

Maybe this isn't the thread to ask, but I want to start playing MtG after talking to an old friend who's way into it.

I know from playing in my past days I want to either play an Artifact/Red or Artifact/Black deck. My idea is that I can swap some cards and use it either as a standard or EDH deck but I have no idea how to start. Where should I look to get pointers?

It'll take you a little bit of effort to make a deck you can swap between Standard or EDH, and honestly it's probably not gonna be very good at either if you go that route. I'd say you should either get into Standard, or try Commander, or build one for each, but trying to build a deck to 'swap' between formats that different might end badly.

Well then I should probably start with Standard since that's, y'know, standard.

I feel you man, I tried to build Meren as distinctly my worst deck, made it squirrel subtheme, and threw in neat things like Yavimaya Scion in there, but it inevitably ended up "land ramp into fish for Vorniclex" because nothing else was playable.

Nope, don't start with standard. It requires playsets (read: multiple copies) of cards, and it's a rotating format where good things won't be playable after a certain length of time. The precon commander decks are some of the best product wizards has ever made, you can build a good deck relatively cheaply, AND you can still play at FNM drafts, then use the cards you get to beef up your deck. Trust me user, it's fun, if you have a casual playgroup it'll mostly be durdling, and you'll get to play giant stupid creatures with hilariously overpowered spells since it's an eternal format, which means you can get very strong cards very cheap. Just find a legendary creature that fits your playstyle, slap together what you have, and have fun. Commander only gets shitty when people start net-decking infinite combos with multiple thousands of dollars of decks, but it's still perfectly playable without doing any of that. Standard, sure it's cheaper(ish) than top tier commander, but you 110% need to google what the flavor of the month decks are, or you'll be blown out pretty quick.

Building on this, the only set of cards I've ever owned was Sacrifical Bam and Rat's Nest are these decks still available for purchase so I can build off them (provided they aren't shite)?

Ehhh, you can't really build decks like that in standard. I mean, you can build decks that try to accomplish, but remember Standard is a rotating format, meaning you need the new cards to be competitive. Modern is a bit more lenient, but then you get into Jace the Wallet Sculptor and Goyfs everywhere, which drives up the price a lot.

To keep things simple, if you want to play standard, go to some drafts to learn the cards and how they work together, then build a deck, but if you want to play to have fun, just spend the $40 on a precon. The meren one is very powerful, as is the prosh one from a while ago, but they come in every colour you could want, and come with very strong staples, like Phyrexian Arena, or Lightning Greaves.

What happens if two different players cast Master Warcraft during the same turn?

Same thing as if two different players cracked Mindslavers aimed at the same third player: the one that resolved most recently 'wins'.

Neat, thank you.

It's not even a question, but I need a clarification regarding this card. I never quite understood the purpose of this card since the tokens do not have haste.

What happens if for example I tap "Leviathan" with ability like landfall island trigger from Guardian Of Tazeem? Does the "Leviathan" untaps if the sac 2 islands cost was paid?

Null sheen, chummer.

The purpose of a card is a ridiculous social experiment where someone offered literal thousands of dollars to anyone stupid enough to take a Seance deck to the Pro Tour.

But honest answer: It's mostly for re-using ETB/LTB effects, or getting a dead creature's static effect online for a short time (like using Seance to get back an Elesh Norn as a white Infest, or as a short-term double Anthem for a big swing). It's not really a very good card, and it kinda smacks of "This used to be better, but we were worried it was TOO good, and nerfed it past the safe point to be sure".

Leviathan doesn't ever naturally untap thanks to its own ability, and it doesn't care WHY it got tapped- you'll need to feed two Islands to it during the upkeep trigger to untap it. Or find some other way, like Thousand-Year Elixir.

Also its any upkeep so you can squish out a fellow to be a blocker if you think you need to.

One of the requirements for an effect to depend on another effect is that both effects apply in the same layer. Does this mean that the layers must match exactly, such as both effects applying in layers 4,5, and 6? Or, does this mean that they must share at least one layer, such as Effect A in layers 4,5, and 6, and Effect B in layer 4?

Thank you, for some reason, I forgot about the static effect mechanic.

It just means they have to interact in at least one layer together. For example, Dralnu's Crusade, and Conspiracy. Conspiracy only works in layer 4, but Crusade works in layer 4, layer 5, and layer 7c; there's a dependency between them in layer 4, even though Conspiracy doesn't do anything in the other layers.

(For the curious: Conspiracy is dependent on Crusade because if you name Goblin then Conspiracy turns everything into a Goblin, then because of that Crusade can start tacking "ZOMBIE" on after that and making it so they can be turned black in layer 5, and get +1/+1 in layer 7c). If Conspiracy is naming anything other than Goblin, then Conspiracy doesn't apply at all).

>Conspiracy is dependent on Crusade
Wouldn't Crusade be dependent on Conspiracy since Conspiracy changes what Crusade applies to?

>If Conspiracy is naming anything other than Goblin, then Conspiracy doesn't apply at all
Did you mean that Crusade doesn't apply at all?

If the priest leaves play before ability resolves, does it still do damage? I mean it works like that for all cases that I encountered before but this guy on OCTGN tried to convince me otherwise.

Tangentially related, when my casual group was just starting out with commander and we weren't 100% on all the rules, friend A made a sick combo involving infinite mana, Conspiracy naming eldrazi, Spawnsire of Ulamog, and dumping a whole box of random jank culminating in Grapeshot for hundreds; friend B then proceeded to cast Mindbreak Trap. Good times.

he can't be killed without being on the field, and if you've declared attackers there's nothing your opponent can do to intervene?

If I build an EDH deck, do I need to stay "current" like with standard?

If priest enters, the ability goes on the stack.
At that point, the ability does not care about the source so removing the priest will not stop the ability.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I just got all mixed up because I slept like two hours last night.

Sleep deprivation!

Yep. Abilities on the stack exist independent of their sources. If that weren't so, Mogg Fanatic would suuuuuuck.

Not at all! EDH uses a modified version of the... Vintage banlist, I believe?

What about Pia and Kiran's ability? Lets say i bolt pia in response to the activation?

So, if you would "counter target creature spell" when the creature is cast to be put to the battlefield, the ability of the creature would still work? 'cause in my mind, the creature would not have been on the battlefield, since you countered its cast.

So I have a Bloodsoaked champion in the yard and I attack with a creature. Can I activate Bloodsoaked Champion's ability before the end of combat? I've been looking around and I can't find a specific ruling on whether or not I can activate him at instant speed.

Same thing as Mogg Fanatic.
Mogg Fanatic also says "Mogg Fanatic deals 1 damage" Despite the fact that it has to be in the yard for it's ability to resolve.

So Pia and Kiran will die, then there ability will resolve and deal two damage.

If it was countered, it never entered the battlefield and it's ability never triggered.

yes you can

Now gA will come and tell you there is no such thing as "instant speed" in MTG
But yes, you can always play activated abilities of cards on the battlefield, graveyard or exile when you have priority unless the card tells you that you can't

Same thing. Abilities on the stack exist independent of their source.

If you countered it, it never resolved. The spell was on the stack, and got countered so it went to the graveyard. It was never a creature on the battlefield.

There's no such thing as 'speed' in Magic, but yes. You can activate an ability any time you have priority unless the ability itself says you can't, or rules baggage for a keyword (like Equip) says you can't.

If I activate Arcum Dagsson can my opponent target the creature I choose to sac causing the ability to whiff or will it count as a cost and aside from Stifle or something there is nothing they can do?

If they have an instant sac outlet like ashnod's altar then yes they can sac the creature before Arcum's ability. The reason being because their ability goes on the stack above your Arcums abilty. Then as the stack resolves his ability resolves first sacing the creature and then your ability goes off, but there is no longer a legal target so it dosnt do anything.

Yes, they can sacrifice it, blink it or stuff like that to stop the ability.
Activated abilities are worded ad cost: effect, the only cost of that card's ability is tapping it. Also even if you counter an ability with Stifle/Trickbind/Voidslime, the costs are not refunded.

They can, because saccing it isn't part of the cost. If they get rid of it before the activation resolves, it'll fizzle due to having no legal target.

Ok, thanks.

Is there some kind of Pokemon Showdown type thing for MtG? I want to learn some basics but not pay for it or leave my house.

Magic: Duels is a free to play game on Steam that kinda teaches the basics.

Magic Duels is free on Steam and it teaches you the basics.

you are incorrect in my game

Play green, turn dudes sideways, win

>Modern
>Jace the Wallet Sculptor
pls

gA, if a player in your tournament (player A) is lending an expensive card to another (player B) and wants to drop/leave, is it reasonable (regular REL) to issue a proxy to player B so that player A can go home and B doesn't have to switch to a basic?

I hemmed and hawed and settled on "no" for a couple of reasons (and asked an L2 friend who was playing after the fact - he said the same thing), but I'd be interested in your input. For me it came down to customer service vs. setting bad precedent/upholding what I feel to be the intent of the rules.

Hi gA, I'm planning on going to the GP in Brisbane next year and doing some side events, if I brought my cube along that contains about 50% proxies, would that be acceptable? Or should I leave it at home?

Hi gA. Here's a fun set of interactions that came up last night and I think the judge gave me the wrong answer, so I have a set of linked questions.

1) When using eldrazi displacer to blink thought-knot seer, do I get to stack the triggers so they draw and then exile a card?

2)If I displace an opposing spell queller in response to their Collected Company, are they forced to exile Coco because my returning spell isn't on the stack to be targeted when targets are chosen?
2a)This is true regardless of how triggers are stacked right?

3) How would you recommend notifying a judge that their ruling is wrong? (Assuming a casual REL)
3a) Same as above at Regular REL.

I personally prefer to discuss complex rule interactions that are likely to come up or are part of my deck before the event to the judge with examples from the comp rules.

So does PA care where it is when it checks to see if something came from the grave this turn?

My example being prized amalgam and two other creatures on my board, haunted dead in my graveyard, and then a voldaren pariah and a random card in my hand.

I discard two and pay two for haunted dead, discarding pariah and the random card, then summon haunted dead tapped. This summons a spirit. I then pay for pariahs madness cost and summon her. I then sac the PA to the pariah along side two other creatures for its flip ability.

Does it come back at the end of the turn?

When deckchecking, do you actively look for counterfeits or not? Would you lengthen the deckcheck on a suspicion, or just when you would be pretty sure the card is fake?

If I sac Kitchen Finks to Eldritch Evolution does the Persist trigger happen before the spell is cast or at the same time?

Basically I want to fetch an Archangel of Thune and I want her to hit the field before I get the 2 life from Kitchen Finks, but is that possible?

Hey gA.
So I accidentally my entire Commander pod in 5 turns off 2 land, no mana rocks, and Skirk Prospector because nobody had direct removal or early enough board wipes. And one guy had no blockers.
I spent 3 turns setting up with Prospector, Warren Instigator, Siege Gang Commander, Matron, and Goblin Warrens... turn 4 casting my commander and getting Krenko, and turn 5 killing the table.
Goblin Warrens and Skirk Prospector are both really dumb cards.

Should probably have mentioned Purphoros, God of the Forge by name in there somewhere, huh?