KNIVES

I made this helpful infographics pointing out some of the key differences between knives and swords IRL.

I would assume that RPGs generally use tiny modern knives such as the one in your post as a basis of comparison.

Are you calling what appears to be a gladius a common "knife"?
Fuck you.

Probably because in most RPGs that have daggers you aren't going against squishy humanoid opponents all the time. A dagger that isn't even long enough to pierce a dragons scales is going to do shit damage compared to a greatsword.

If you are just killing townsfolk though most games give them so few meatpoints that you can kill them in one hit regardless of the weapon you are using, so you are complaining about nothing.

How about you tell us which RPGs you are talking about because I don't think I have heard of any where the daggers damage doesn't make sense.

Nah dude That isn't a gladius look at the handle construction it's riveted/pinned in place, so it is a knife.

>yataghan
>a knife

>I don't think games should portray a knife as being a one-hit-kill weapon.
Eeeeh, never said that exactly

>They don't make big wounds,
true
>their wounds are relatively easy to heal,
FUCK no. Stabs require deep surgery to stick up all the slashed tissue, and internal bleeding is a fuckign bitch. Granted, something liek a sword can do the same, but a knife simply isnt that MUCH less dangerous, is all.
>and getting extra damage from attributes is more difficult because you have little way of getting more leverage with it IRL.

well, i can agree with the last part. i was thinking as a general rule of thumb, maybe a bonus to crit damage (emulating the "got past the defenses" bit) and a penalty for defenses, because you have to get super fucking close to use it?

DnD commoner/average human has 1HD, Dagger does 1D4 dmg + Str mod. Chances are if you stab a normal human they're either out of the fight or so close to it that they'll flee if able. Seems about right.

Might be more an issue with I-go-U-go combat and HP as a mass rather than injuries/status effects.

>Probably because in most RPGs that have daggers you aren't going against squishy humanoid opponents all the time. A dagger that isn't even long enough to pierce a dragons scales is going to do shit damage compared to a greatsword.

Yeah that's true, comparatively they do fuckall as opposed to a sword, as I stated in OP.

>How about you tell us which RPGs you are talking about because I don't think I have heard of any where the daggers damage doesn't make sense.

Shit, obviously fantasy ones like DnD and retroclones, but also Savage Worlds; Warhammer Fantasy is guilty of this as well, I'll be honest I don't remember more examples off the top of my head

>Might be more an issue with I-go-U-go combat and HP as a mass rather than injuries/status effects.
there's something in that, yeah

>how?
most precise weapon in a game where bonus to hit is superior to equal bonus to damage.

>Are you calling what appears to be a gladius a common "knife"?

It's a Kindjal which, yes, is a knife.

Take this as your first step towards learning to deal with it.

Try this game OP. Daggers are legit way more dangerous than just about anything else in the game, due to the retarded way "Close Combat" (Grappling) works.

Fantasy Craft does an okay job of making almost all weapons viable with the Fighting Styles feats. IIRC there is a fighting style using daggers and the few other small bladed weapons in the system that was pretty decent.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Dagger" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Knives deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine knife from Amazon for 20$ and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my knife.

Smiths spend hours working on a single knife and fold it a few times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Knives are thrice as sharp as swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a knife can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a knife could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, because the Japanese had knives. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because katanas are basically big knives

So what am I saying? Knives are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Knives:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

tl;dr = Knives need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

>few games do lethality of knives justice, even when you stab somebody right up in the face
>few games do lethality of maces justice, even when you cave somebody's skull in
>few games do lethality of spears justice, even when you gore somebody right in the gut
>few games do lethality of swords justice, even when you hack somebody right in the neck
>few games do lethality of crossbows justice, even when you shoot somebody right in the eye
>few games do lethality of magic justice, even when you set somebody on fucking fire

Need I go on?

But knives aren't exotic, they're easy to use!

Yeah, please do, I asked about the knives, but this really does paint a bigger issue with rpgs. I like my games lethal and requiring a forethought before just slugging someone with a heavy or a sharp object, but then again, I'm a slav so I have a penchant for darker, heavier atmosphere

>Knives are legitimately scary, a good stab in heart kills you flat
That's not true based on HEMA research into violent knife crime. People can still be active and even be running for up to 40 seconds after getting stabbed in the heart.

Randomness is to account for the very real variability there is IRL.

People have survived seven 7.62x39 hits to the torso or died to a single .22 LR round that hit the heart. Or that guy who had a hunting knife driven all the way into his brain but survived basically unharmed.

...

Then find a good system that does wounds well and is gritty. Most likely Riddle of Steel (answer is aim for the groin) or WFRP 2e.

My shitty homebrew doesn't diferentiate between a fist, axe, dagger or sword (but spears give +initiative), but then again it's a simple d6 system and precise combat isn't important for me.

0.02$ for the thread, we shouldn't take normal human beings as damage dolls for RPG games, but blocks of ballistic gel or something more abstract for games like D&D.
A sword will do more gross damage to a block of jelly or a big ogre than a knife would (either slash or stab), and a greatsword would do quite a bit more damage than a sword. Concerning humans, all three attacks would kill 70% of us (close to 100% if we don't get stiched up post attack), but we're not discussing humans vs humans in such fantastic systems, but blocks of jelly, ogres, trolls, dragons and so on.

It's a question of game system and setting, and you have to choose one which you find good for you.

No sense going after knives when game designers can't even do a katana right.

...

Yeah, Knife wielders in Fantasy Craft are pretty dangerous. Notice how you can never be disarmed as long as you have a knife anywhere on your person.
If they take all your visible weapons and tie you to a chair, as long as they missed that knife in your boot you are still armed and dangerous.

>0.02$ for the thread, we shouldn't take normal human beings as damage dolls for RPG games, but blocks of ballistic gel or something more abstract for games like D&D.
>A sword will do more gross damage to a block of jelly or a big ogre than a knife would (either slash or stab), and a greatsword would do quite a bit more damage than a sword. Concerning humans, all three attacks would kill 70% of us (close to 100% if we don't get stiched up post attack), but we're not discussing humans vs humans in such fantastic systems, but blocks of jelly, ogres, trolls, dragons and so on.

That's... an interesting perspective, all right. Fair enough, though then you have a certain disconnect between ballistic gel for a fight, but suddenyl a very real human when it comes to slitting a throat or any sort of coup de grace.

>Most likely Riddle of Steel (answer is aim for the groin) or WFRP 2e
I like it, but it's quite crunchy. I'm actually looking for some lethal but also rules-light games. I start to wonder if there is such a thing.

Those two kinda cancel each other out. Can't have gritty realistic lethal stuff without having wound tables and weapon tables.

RoS tl;dr is that you choose how much dice are spent on offense and how much is spent on defense. If you get hit, you lose dice and health-wounds. Whoever doesn't get cut-stabbed wins is the general motto, this is the general feel of the game and system. 1v2 fights usually win with the two guys winning very easily. Gritty, lethal, realistic, not very fun.

My suggestion for lethal and rules light is that you go with some OSR shit or some other simple d6 game, but add your own wound table, like have bleeds, cut tendons, and other debilitating that-guy's-down-for-three-months things from WFRP. Cut out HP entirely or something, I honestly aren't good with wound systems and suggest you read WFRP 2e at least for the wound tables or steal their rules.

It's also very important that you find some setting with a good tone for this, some Dark Souls or Conan shit where the heroes aren't going to tank hits from dragons or valiantly cut down dozens of orcs, or else you're just gonna end up with dead and angry players (when every hit could be your last or cripple you, player characters are in serious trouble because they get hit the most in campaigns over time).

So add healing magic or resurrection if you're up for a fun yet lethal time, or don't if you're up for gritty stuff.

Iv'e never played it myself, but heard good things about Unknown armies knife fighting.

>I'm actually looking for some lethal but also rules-light games. I start to wonder if there is such a thing.

Moldvay Basic D&D is both. Traveller is fairly rules light (if you don't count the mountain of GM tools for generating stuff.) and pretty damn lethal.

Well, obviously thαt wαsn't α GOOD stαb to the heαrt.

Shadowrun knives are alright.

Try playing a more lethal system that isn't as concerned with being a game. I have played several where no matter how experienced a knight you are a random schmuck can put a knife in your throat and kill you instantly.

That also has the upside of making players think twice before initiating fights.

Well most games make damage part of the weapon rather than a factor of the characters skill with it and they see Knives as having less damage due to size essentially.

There are however some have weapon damage but the damage thresholds of the weapons are very close to each other so the differences really become minor.

OD&D and BECMI are good examples of an old school design that is that way. It it's base system all weapons do 1d6 damage using the optional variable damage system weapons do 1d4, 1d6, or 1d8 daggers being 1d4 on that scale that basically means the average damage of each is 2, 3, and 4 which isn't that big a difference.

I personally like systems where your skills make more of a difference in the damage outcome than the weapon used. But some older systems are still ok even with weapon based damage.

all noted. shit, might as well do something similar to apocalypse world's harm moves, rolling something+damage on damage effects table, hm.

A common complaint against damage tables is that they slow the game down. I don't agree, or rather, I don't agree that it's a problem. Rolling to see wether your sword cuts someone's lung, or hits an artery, or shatters the bone in his arm is exciting and fun. It's also exciting and nerv wrecking when you're at the receiving end of it.

Go play GURPS due to rumour about well-made knives
Realise how fucking stupid is damage distribution in other games
Then realise you now have nobody to play with, as you are ostracised as GURPSfag
Despair.

Technically a proper yataghan would be a somewhat longer weapon I think.
That's just a blade forged in a similar style, akin to how not all straight blades are automatically "swords".

Why are you typing with alphas?

>>their wounds are relatively easy to heal

Nigger u wot? Ask any doctor which patient they would rather treat (Supposing that they only had time to operate on one and the wound will be fatal if left unattended), between a stabbing victim and a gunshot victim they will choose the gunshot victim every time because they have a higher chance of survival.

Why not just brew up your own rules for damage and tack them onto a system with rules you already like?

>What does relatively mean

Well, relative to what, then?

Why αren't you?

The question is do you ever type with the Aesh character?

No doctor would want either. A typical gunshot vs a typical knife stab would probably lean in favor of the knife being more difficult, but once you get closer to vital organs and account for fragmentation bullet wounds become very, very scary as a doctor, at least you know where the wound is with a knife.

Swords, maces, spears, arrows.

Of course I do you fæg.

I always wanted knives to be more useful while not being straight up better than other melee weapons. In a homebrew I've been working on they do very little damage at base value but have huge multipliers from stealth attacks (the concept being that you can actually use the knife much better against a target that doesn't know you're there). The also make the least noise of all weapons in the game. Finally, they can be used even in the middle of a grapple or if the player has been grabbed by a large enemy.

HP systems are inherently broken.

im trying to figure out something like this basing it on general Veeky Forums input on the matter

I was thinking, what if HP was just the blood in the bodily system? Wounds could cause bleeding at different rates, but also injuries.

> what if HP was just the blood in the bodily system?

I've seen an RPG which tracked "fatigue". You had a column on the side of your paper where you'd slide paperclips up and down the number column. You'd figure out critical fatigue levels for your stats and mark them by hand (EG draw a line at 13 pts for blackout). Major exertion costs fatigue. Physical impacts cause fatigue. Wounds generate bleeding which causes fatigue loss per round. Etc.

Basically if the initial hit didn't kill you, you bleed to death. It was kind of old so it used a 2-axis chart for rolling damage, which gave a readout of the effects of the hit. Type of attack put you in the column, attack roll put it in the row, then armor at that location shifted on both axis depending on it's properties.

You guys are a collective þorn in our sides, you know that?

Ðis is getting ridiculous.

>look at the handle construction it's riveted/pinned in place, so it is a knife.
Handle construction is not sufficient to classify sword verse knife.

Bullshit. There is in no way that a knife stab wound is inherently more difficult than a gunshot wound to treat. Gunshot wounds exhibit every sort of tissue damage a knife can produce in addition to possible issues of bullet fragmentation and complex wound paths if the bullet tumbles or is deflected off bone.

GURPS

I just handweave all that shit into luck.
-the enemy's arrow gets stuck in your armor, and you suffer a minor cut
-you roll into the damage and suffer a minor bruise. you're certain you won't survive another such attack

Only the attack that drops a character is a lethal one, small cuts and bruises until that happens, or light wounds.

Handweaving's shit if you take huge amounts of damage tho.

Sounds like Ironclaw, where damage doesn't stack. It's only taken for each attack instance, where you're only dying if you take 4 damage in a single hit (insta-dead at 5, overkill at 6+). Anything less just applies a status effect if you didn't already have it (they don't stack, just yes/no).

In RuneQuest 6/Mythras, knives deal a little damage but that's because Armor reduces damage. A smart player uses a knife to bleed the target and otherwise play the defensive game.

Bleeding works whether you deal 1 damage with a knife or 10 damage with a great sword , and quickly fatigues an opponent who doesn't succeed endurance checks or treats the wound. And after a round or two they will have a very difficult time damaging you at all.

Also armor works as damage reduction with a % chance per layer, rolled as a pool. So it actually rolls, in two pool rolls:
>Roll attack, he rolls his defense choice
> He breaks your guard with (strength die success) his superior strength, and (reeling bonus die success) your bad footing rolls you into the blow. Only your skill saves you (skill die was your highest).
>Roll soak
>It pierces your gambeson (fail), but the leather dulls it (success), as does your resolve (will stat die success)
> 2 damage
> You were already hurt (effect was already checked off), but now you're afraid (check off effect)

>MWF my group is ass familiar with GURPS and willing to play it whenever we dont have a particular system in mind
It feels good

> Why the fuck are knives in RPGs almost always the piddliest fucking weapon?

Because in the face of swords, battle axes, and spears they are piddly? Those are weapons that a 'alright' hit can easily disable a opponent or major blood loss.

>Knives are legitimately scary, a good stab in heart kills you flat

can and will are not the same thing. I have done reading on the subject. The normal length of time for assault with a knife with the aim to kill in the US and the UK is 40 to 2:00 mins (7 to 20 D&D combat rounds). During which time there is around 12 to 38 stab wounds, with 16 to 23 being a very common number for the attacker to stop and feel the jobs 'done'.

>Handle construction is not sufficient to classify sword verse knife.
Bruh, that literally is like, the main thing that classifies something as a knife.

you faggots know full well that's what the game's refering to with it's "short swords," which is exactly what they are. Messers are raw-fag as fuck.

GURPS, my friend, is the game you are looking for. No damage bloat, most definitely no HP bloat and a shitload of really, really nasty stuff to do with knives. Also, knives are much cheaper than any other weapon, so you can easily get some special knife with nifty bonus or special feature at bargain price. AND when you get to someone, they have a really hard time fighting with you, as all they have at their disposal is bare hands (most weapons get penalty when fighting at really close range, but knives don't)

I can't think of a tech-level in GURPS where knives aren't one of the best melee weapons

Oh look, it's the airmchair weapon expert, taking all his knowledge from D&D

A knife is only a good weapon against someone who is wearing no armor and a civilian-type. Try using a knife against even an armored opponent who is at least moderately skilled in his weapon. Unless you have a really high knife skill to always hit between gaps, you're not going to take down an armored opponent.

... which also applies to swords, most of axes and shitload of weapons, you dead-brain nigger faggot cunt

That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork Bastard Sword” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Knives deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Bowie Knife in Australia for 2,400,000 AUSD (that’s about $2 USD) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even stab slabs of solid steel with my Bowie Knife
Australians spend years working on a single Bowie Knife and fold it at least one hundred times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Knives are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a Knife can stab better. I’m pretty sure a Knife could easily bisect a kangaroo wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Australia? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Bogans and their Bowie Knives of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Bowie Knives first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Knives are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for knives

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the stabbing power of Knives in real life, don’t you think?
tl;dr = Knives need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

FFG Star Wars does knives well. Vibroknife to the body will likely leave you bleeding out or missing vital organs.

But not warhammers!
Best way to kill someone is with a hammer. Always has been.

I like a lot knife in Burning Wheel.

They are the fastest weapon, you have an enormous malus when you're at spear range but impose the same malus when you're at the shortest range, and even if they deal less damage than other weapons, it go up way faster since you have a sort of bonus to critical hit.

When you're at bay, you're fucked, but if you get inside, it's a nightmare. Even a lowly peasant can kill a veteran figther with a good roll (and if the latter as no armor, of course)

Shit, man, bleeding in RQ6 is just fucking metal.

...Actually, combat in general in RQ6 is just fucking metal. Probably the most exiting fight system I've run and played.

You've misspelled gun. Or halberd, since it's hard to say.

I guess one way to do it would be with Critical tables and the like. A sword can take your head off, sure, but if you want to hit a guy in the jugular a knife is better.

Like, expert swordhands notwithstanding, I suppose that say you're fighting a heavily armored mook. Armor can be whatever you have in mind (plate, riot gear, power armor what have you) but there's a lot of it.

A swing of a sword might provide better range and power, but if you get up close with a knife you can much more easily shank the mook in a vulnerable spot.

I've mostly fixed this problem in my DnD homebrew.

For starters, HP is generated at first level and does not increase unless you are a fighter and specialize in defense/tanking combat as you level up, only granting +1 each time. Most of your HP is based on your body size and a small amount on your class and stats to represent fitness. Since HP doesn't change much, it makes weapons more lethal.

Secondly, and more importantly, weapons have a special quality when they roll maximum on their damage score- they penetrate the opponent's armor and deal damage directly without a typical d20 vs AC attack roll. Because knives are the smallest weapon class at d4, they penetrate armor the most.

liberal brainwash propaganda

is over that way, friend.

Unknown Armies treats knives as follows - attacks are rolled on a d100 any attack with a knife does 1 damage even on a successful defense roll, most successful attacks do tens place + ones place damage (aka a 24 does 6 damage), and a successful attack that's a double does damage equal to the roll (a 33 does 33 damage). As I recall, average health is like 40 or so? So that's scary.

Of course, these are technically the rules for all stabbing weapons, you're just not likely to see anything beyond knives because modern day setting. And guns always do damage equal to the roll on a successful attack.

>just replaces "katana" with "knife" in pasta
>does not replace Japanese
>does not come up with new statblock

3/10 more effort needed

Show me something that says that.

Most sword hilts are riveted and/or glued to the tang. Katana grips are riveted to the tang, and there a plenty of images showing the blade without the grip to show the maker's marks and also showing a hole drilled through the tang for a rivet. Wiki page for katana if you need a citation with bare tangs.

t. neo-autistic neo-grognard fagmillennial brainwashed cockpuppet of the global left

>literally everyone who disagrees with the left must be /pol/ zionist stooge nazi white supremacist brainwashed idiot of the alex jones propaganda

>i have literally never heard of centrists or moderates

epic my 2016 comrade

Why do you feel that that is the case?

I'd check out the solomon kane, or the old pirate's books if you want a savage world's solution to knives not being awesome. Kane for the knives themselves (and also the edges, I think there is a bit of overlap) and pirates for the edges and the fighting in enclosed spaces bit.

Str + d4 + 1 damage will see an average person kill another average person about 40% of the time they land a hit. If they connect the first hit but the guy survives there is about a 76.5% chance that the other average guy will be killed on the second hit or otherwise be shaken locked while repeatedly stabbed in the gut.

Until either they score a raise on a spirit roll (they're average so about a 14% chance), or the average stabber scores a raise and hits something important (about an 11% chance given that everyone is average). (a knife attack that hits with a raise, even without the solomon kane knife will kill an average person 69% of the time).

Against player characters or monster yeah knives are significantly less effective.

>my DnD homebrew

That's basically just hackmaster rules.

Literally the entire existence of the messer and langes messer? You can call them swords. But the entire reason they exist is because they're knives.

...you do know this isn't 14th century Germany, right user?

I have a friend I used to work with, he had spent lots of time in Prison (not jail for those of you who don't know the difference, google that shit)

I joked once that it's REALLY hard to kill someone with a knife.

H took off his shirt, and showed me six places he'd been stabbed with a knife, grinning the whole time, saying "Fuck yeah it is"

Then showed me two stab wounds on his legs, and one on each of his arms.

It is REALLY hard to kill someone with a knife - that is why you hear about people with 75 stab wounds surviving.

Bull shit it isn't

To be fair your friend wasn't stabbed with a knife in prison but a shiv, which is the equivalent of a sharpened screwdriver or toothbrush. In that case, the length of the shiv is a serious factor in how lethal it is.

Anyway, this thread is kind of silly, no system is completely simulationist, nor should it be. After all, people have survived a plane crash, and have died from a simple punch.

The core message of Undertale is that our enemies are people, too, and that genocide is wrong. To a certain section of the board, that is liberal propaganda teaching our kids to surrender to the evil subhuman muslim hordes.

>we need to let the LITERAL MONSTERS take over our planet because le ebul crusaders locked them up x thousands of years ago
>you should listen to everything this gay jewish goat tells you and trust him completely and forgive him for everything even though you just met him 5 minutes ago and don't know his motives and have no way of knowing whether or not he's lying to you. also you can't kill him. it's literally impossible.
>also the gay jewish goat's adopted WHITE human sister is totally evil, because she's WHITE. we can't actually tell you anything she did objectively wrong, and the stuff we did tell you about can be arguably justified, but you should just take our word that she's totally and irredeemably evil and cannot be forgiven even in this world where everyone else can be forgiven, just because we're saying it through the mouthpiece of this progressive gay jewish goat that you should trust unconditionally and also did we mention she's WHITE? JUST TAKE OUR WORD FOR IT BRO LMAO

now don't get me wrong here; I don't buy into /pol/'s whole "blacks/jews/mexicans/muslims/(other 'scary brown people' of the week) are genetically inferior and are ruining everything and muh precious grossgermaniums is dying abloo abloo abloo" shit, but you gotta admit UT's pretty fuckin hamhandedly liberal propaganda

oh fuck off with your polarization agenda, your "everyone in the world must either be a tumblr or a /pol/, there is no center, there is no moderation, there is no fuckin common sense, we shall take the common sense and burn it on a cross for all the world to see, we have killed it, we have PUBLICLY FUCKING EXECUTED it, WE ARE THE EXTREMISTS AND WE SHALL DRAG THIS WORLD STRAIGHT TO HELL"