Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Our Queen's Formative Years edition

Discuss the lore of the Warcraft universe and its potential uses in TTRPGs

Previous thread:

so were her and Vol'jin always buddy buddy or did something happen in one of the expansions?

Well I suppose she supported him in the rebellion against Garrosh, or rather, neither of them supported Garrosh together.

If you see the horde cutscene he basically says "although I don't trust you the loa gave me clarity to see that you would lead the Horde to the light, so you be warchief mon"

in the cutscene where Vol'jin dies he literally says "I never trusted you", but the Loa told him that she was the best choice to succeed him

That's actually pretty hilarious

also, is it just me or does it seem like cross-thread links are broken? I thought the threads got deleted but they're both still here

In SoO, after Garrosh is defeated, Horde characters can talk to Sylvanas.

She states how she hates the idea of serving under a troll. What happened to turning Azeroth into the plaguelands? What happened to Koltira Deathweaver? What happened to the Banshee Queen who tried to conspired with her sister to murder Garrosh before his trial was over, in case he was spared (which he was)? She's all about saving her soul from damnation now, it seems.

So it's piss poor Blizzard writing, turning her character upside down. But then again, I believe Blizz is in full pandering mode now that subs are so low.

Furry leader for the alliance
Female leader for the horde

Everyones happy

It's pretty shitty that during the Broken Shore scenario I had never liked Varian or Vol'jin as much as I did at that moment. That scene where Vol'jin appoints Sylvanas as his successor was the most warchief thing he had ever done and then he fucking died. Same thing with Varian, that "For the Alliance" that he says to Gul'dan is one of the best delivered lines the series has ever seen.

I pray it's a sign of things to come in regards to storytelling in Legion

>letting Sylvy get two threads
>not claiming this thread for Ironforge

Come on, OP.

It's piss poor writing reversing previous piss poor writing, though. Sylvanas' motivation and character got shredded in Cata, now she's got shredded again into something that isn't destined for being a raid boss.

I'm not defending it. But maybe, just maybe, they do a fucking redemption arc for once instead of yet another corrupted-raid-boss one.

They never did. It's just that Blizzard needed someone else as warchief because Vol'jin died because Varian had to die. They picked their strong independent waifu in the end.

>Furry leader for the alliance

Is Greymane confirmed to be the de facto leader of the Alliance now? I don't mind that actually, considering he was a founding member of the Alliance, I like the idea that it now falls to Genn to hold it together.

Sylvanas IS just blatant pandering though. There is really no good reason to have had Vol'jin axed so quickly after his promotion. Fuck man, the Horde has had four fucking Warchiefs since Vanilla. Blackhand and Doomhammer are rolling in their graves.

Aren't the Loa chaotic evil/neutral by nature? From what I've read the troll pantheon is bat shit crazy. And no, I'm not mistaking Darkspear for Guru jungle shitters.

>now she's got shredded again into something that isn't destined for being a raid boss.

Her activities during Legion say otherwise.

Poor Vol'jin. Never gets to do a damn thing as warchief before being pretty unceremoniously killed to put Sylvanas in charge.

Sylvanas "Plagues and Val'kyr" Windrunner, who was always the leader least dedicated to the Horde and the least trusted by the other leaders.

I don't even want to hate Sylvanas, but she's just not a good choice. Is seniority really the only thing that matters for getting the position? Garrosh was a part of the Horde for one expansion, and not even a faction leader, before he got promoted.

>Is Greymane confirmed to be the de facto leader of the Alliance now?
Everyone is "officially" behind Anduin now that Varian is ded.
Genn is the one Blizzard is leaning on to be the leader for the players since they want to continue the Red v Blue narrative and we all know Genn has no reason to ever get lovey dovey with that cunt Sylvannas.

>Baine Bloodhoof
>literally a younger Cairne that has a strong relationship with Anduin, the future king of Stormwind and the Alliance
>passed over for Warchief because "da spirits want Sylvanas"

I don't understand why they undersell Baine Bloodhoof so much. People always act like he's inexperienced because he's Cairne's son but isn't he older than both Thrall and Vol'jin? Cairne was fucking ancient too I bet Baine is over 60 by now and people still pass over him... fuck Anduin is like 18 and the story treats him like he's ready to be King.

It is literally nothing more than fucking terrible writing that is putting Sylvanas in charge.
There's no justifying it. She's literally the worst possible person in-universe that's not named Jaina to put in charge of the Horde, but Blizzard needs to pander to the 13-year old faggots who just want more fapbait elf shit.

GG Varian, you died as you lived: Capped on Rage and throwing yourself chin first into your enemies.

That chin is an epic quality mace.

We got Sylvanas because Blizzard likes Sylvanas. The pick also helps red vs blue drama too. No need to over think this.

>Sylvanas "Plagues and Val'kyr" Windrunner, who was always the leader least dedicated to the Horde and the least trusted by the other leaders.

It's pretty fucking sad that Lor'themar "Who?" Theron has provided more for the Horde in the last two expansions than Sylvanas has since Vanilla.

>Blizzard likes Sylvanas
You mean Kosak likes Sylvanas and is forcing his fucking waifu on everyone else.

>Lor'themar "Who?" Theron
I prefer to think of him as Good Guy "It's Not Gay if it's an Elf" Cyclops.

>She's literally the worst possible person in-universe that's not named Jaina to put in charge
Sylvanas x Jaina hatefucking when?

>The pick also helps red vs blue drama too. No need to over think this.

The racial leaders don't need to be hostile towards the other faction for their to be conflict between the Alliance and the Horde. Vanilla and BC had a tense peace between the two but there were still skirmishes happening in shit like Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin. Varian had been much less aggressive in his stance against the Horde since Mists of Pandaria, and Anduin is succeeding him.

>put Sylvanas in charge

Well okay I guess that's not the craziest thi-

>they slapped on some shitty looking leather to cover her midriff and thighs

I just don't get you sometimes Blizz.

>Sylvanas + Genn = WAR

>WAR SO COOL XDDDDDD

I was speaking from what I believe the Blizzard mindset is. Personally I wish we went back into the gold ol' vanilla cold war(ish) days.

ah now I see the vision the Loa granted Vol'jin

I miss Arthas. I don't know why but I find myself thinking of the Scourge & how helpful they could be if Bolvar somehow told them to attack the Burning Legion.

All I know is that I love Varian now more than ever.

You do know that the Legion created the Scourge, right? And dreadlords took direct control over it for a while?

That's just asking for Bolvar to get 'lol, corrupted' by the Legion. Or regular ol' mind rape.

Bolvar's pissed off some paladins by trying to get Tirion's corpse, though

B-but she almost got assassinated.

That just means he'll be even easier to corrupt, because he's already unhinged.

I remember Arthas killed some dreadlords even when weakened in Warcraft 3. Ner'zhul decided to betray the legion.

there was no way that could have worked out for him, even diplomatically itd have been a "Guys just trust me on this" sort of thing

Where is Arthas' corpse anyway?

>tfw the Scourge never resurrected Galakrond

>resurrect Galakrond
>find out his prima willpower is so strong he breaks out of the Lich King's mind control
>he frees every undead dragon in Azeroth only to bend them to his will
>UNDEAD CATACLYSM 2.0 YOU CAN (NOT) USE DRAGON SOUL

Or maybe...
>Bolvar resurrects Galakrond and turns him to face the Legion
>Legion is beaten back by ferocity of this new power
>Gul'dan hops in flying boat
>duels Galakrond for three days in the air
>finally manages to defeat Galakrond
>his massive corpse falls from the sky and crushes Icecrown Citadel
>Bolvar nowhere to be found
>Sylvanas picks up the crown to become the new Lich Queen
>a new voice rises to lead the Forsaken against her
>it's Kel'thu-fucking-zad

damn I love me some protodragons

Is Vol'jin dying and Sylvanas being the Warchief "chosen one" from the visions the final straw for anyone else?

I've always really deeply loved Warcraft lore and even though I stopped playing WoW years ago I've still followed all the stuff that's been going on. The lore's been terrible for a while now but I feel like this is just such an irreversible fuckup. Sylvanas makes 0 sense as Warchief, they're turning her into Kerrigan. Even if she turns out to be evil and gets taken down A) we'd be retreading Garrosh and B) there's like no good Horde leaders left. Baine is the only one that could replace her which would leave the Orcs, Trolls, and Undead all without actual leaders. Worse than that is the extreme likelihood she is just going to be the Warchief until the end of WoW because of how much the writers like to jerk off to Sylvanas.

I think they might have killed my entire interest in this universe. I've got pretty much no desire to even follow it from here on out because there's no way they can fix such a colossal disaster.

>"Sylvanas, I don't trust you, but de Loa have given me a vision dat you be the one to lead us to salvation. At last I understand..."
>"Understand dat de Loa are idiots dat is, elfboy, you're in charge."

naw, Im not thrilled by the choice as there were better options as said in thread, but I like that her first act was declaring revengence against the legion for Vol'jin

They fucked up the Warchief storyline for the Horde for so long that I can't care more than to be slightly confused by the choice.

I kind of just wish she got a new outfit that was more appropriate for her position as Warchief

what you thinking fuck huge pauldrons or barechested like a proper warchief?

The Troll pantheon is more benevolent than people give them credit for.

As a shadow hunter, Vol could commune with them in the spirit world, and when he was close to death, they came to him, asking where the hell their tributes were after helping them reclaim the Echo Isles.

Bwonsamdi is kickass in Shadows of the Horde, and for a top-tier shadow hunter, Vol'Jin goes out like a punk.

But then again, Bwonsamdi wanted to claim him in death after Garroshes assassination attempt, but Vol'Jin and his dad convinced him to let him return, in exchange for Vol'Jin showing the Zandalari that sided with the mogu who was boss.

The Zandalari had closest ties with the loa, but since they are the remnants of the height of the Troll empire, but Bwon, the spider and bat loas felt the loa were taking them for granted, due to their long-lost status and felt entitled to their patronage, which is why they backed the Darkspears. Vol'Jin also promised Bwon a fuckton of Zandalari kills in tribute to him (which he delivered)

The loa were awesome, but you need to go through certain means to find out about them. Vol'Jin appeased the loa of death, earned some extra time before passing, and though he didn't trust Sylvanas, he trusted the word of his god, who at that point had no reason to screw him over.

I'm fine with that, as it's fully explained, it's the Banshee Queens actions I hate. It doesn't fit her character to just pussy out and suddenly be a woman of honour, determined to avenge Vol'Jin (who she never liked anyway due to his inferior race) and fearful of the damnation of her immortal soul.

After all she's done so far, it just seems like a massive U-turn for her to reverse her morality.

As mentioned, imo it's pandering because it's the current year.

>look a strong female leader who's not manipulative, self-serving and snarky, but in fact honourable, caring and selfless
>wimmenz hooray

Doesn't scream Banshee Queen to me.

The Horde died with Garrosh.

Nah, Gul'dank gets double extra corrupted and hulks out

Maybe I'm a retard for liking the Horde. I still vastly prefer the Horde races but at least the Alliance isn't getting stuck a revolving door of leaders. Realistically though I'm just done.

Sylvanas can be the most amazing Warchief in the world and it doesn't change the fact that an undead, and specifically an evil fuck like Sylvanas, would never be accepted as the leader of the Horde. The Forsaken have always been a fringe faction and that's what made them cool. It ruins Sylvanas just as much as it ruins the Warchief position. Everything is worse for this change.

She's the oldest remaining Horde racial leader, if I recall.

Even so, I'd have liked to see Gallywix as Warchief. Hear me out.

Another Orc would bring fears that a new Garrosh was on the way, Baine might be seen as too inexperienced despite his age, and Lor'Themar was /this/ close to going back to the Alliance during MoP.

Gallywix, on the other hand, has managed to retain leadership of the Bilgewater Cartel even after he plotted to SELL THEM ALL. He's a sly little git, and everyone hates him, but everyone hates him EQUALLY and everyone knows what motivates him - profit. There's no "what if he turns out like Garrosh?" or "what is he goes back to the humans?" or "what if he's not ready?" or "what if he becomes Lich King 4.0 like everyone already knows but doesn't mention out of politeness?"

With Gallywix, everyone would know exactly what they're getting from day one.

I'm happy with my headcanon.

Some OC in reaction to recent revelations.

meh as long as they dont go back to being humies of elves im ok with it. She's struck me more as bitter and ruthless then out and out evil

That's how I was since MoP. I feel like this has gone so far that it's even killed my headcanon. My headcanon would have almost no similarities with the actual state of the canon.

That's really no reason to put him in charge.

>We know he's going to ruin us and we all hate him
>Yea okay let's choose him as Warchief

The only reason Gallywix is even still the goblin racial leader is because Blizzard can't be bothered to do anything about it. The best way to have done it was to have him refuse to help in the Siege of Orgrimmar, causing him to be kicked out.

Seriously though I'm surprised they even kept him in the Vol'jin cinematic.

isnt that the point of headcanon?

I'd love to give him a shot, but they'll never have him do anything of real importance, as he's more a businessman than a leader of people.

I forget her name but realistically the Gobbos don't look to him for leadership, but that chick in a suit in the slums.

Pic related; how he was supposed to look, which further reinforced his status. Excess through success, longest running Bilgewater Trade Prince, and how does he show it off? Custom shredder, personal driver, Kaja mine troll Leia slaves. His mount rushmore knockoff shows him with a fat chin, but he's just a normal Goblin. They never gave him anything to do after their home blew up.

I'm quite certain the only thing he did past the Goblin starting area was tip his hat to Vol'Jin in the SoO Horde cinematic.

Blizzard, why must you not deliver with every expansion? There's always something that gets chopped, delayed, or outright forgotten.

DANCE STUDIO WHEN

I guess. Usually for headcanon I just ignore developments past a certain point; e.g., my headcanon for DBZ is that it just ends after Frieza is killed and Goku dies on Namek. But to extricate the cancer from Warcraft lore.. I don't even know where you'd fucking start. I'd have to write like an elaborate fanfiction covering the 13 years since Frozen Throne.

They know he'll ruin them, but only to a certain extent and only so long as it makes him money.

Anyone else either risks failing harder, is prone to betraying the Horde itself, or might even go so far as to become an existential threat to Azeroth (lookin' at you, Sylvy).

It's a sign of how desperate things are now that he'd be a SAFE bet, if not a GOOD one.

She planned and tried to kill her nephews and her sister and raise them as undead. She's fucking evil.

As of now I don't see how she can be a good warchief either. The bitch will do ANYTHING to never die. If they get in her way she will fuck her people, she will fuck the horde. No remorse.

nuh uh now she's all about getting into heaven

Why didnt Goldrinn help Varian and let him die like a bitch? He proclaimed Varian as his avatar afterall.

The safe bet would have been Baine. There's no downside to him being Warchief. The idea that he's "inexperienced" is ludicrous and the only reason he wasn't selected as Warchief is that Blizz loves Sylvanas too much.

The "make him the leader because at least we know what we're getting even though he's bad" idea is way too much of a stretch.

Technically I have to accept that.

I just want Goblins to be relevant.

It hurts.

I love Goblins too but Gallywix isn't the way. I'd rather they do more with Sassy Hardwrench.

Varian wasn;t furry enough

>are you into furries?

KNOW WHAT IT FEELS TO BE THE GNOMES OF THE HORDE! FEEL OUR PAIN!

The entirety of Wolfheart was retconed. The audio drama made sure of that.

what do you think the population size of horde races and alliance races are? I am talking npc in a realistic numbers sense? like 20 million each race except forsaken or something like that?

and yean baine should have become chief?

side not, anybody else see OP's sylvanas picture and get thirsty?

It's not going to stop me from playing, but I will viciously mock it if given half a chance.

>He's a self serving fat fuck.
>Only reason we put up with him is because he has all the money.
>No, no, I mean ALL the money.
>And we want that money.
>Fuck it, let's just put him in charge. He'll be better than the corpse.
Meanwhile, Saurfang is the warchief the Horde needs. But the one we'll never get. I don't fucking care that he doesn't want the job. Garrosh wanted the job and cocked it up!

And I'm not even mad about this shit. It's old hat: Blizzard tries to do big faction shake-ups, executes them poorly and it's all unsatisfying.

Just holding out hope Suramar is as awesome as promised. I haven't cared about the faction war since... fucking hell, since Warcraft 2. I just want some good stories. Whether they're justifying a raid tier or are just engaging leveling zones, I don't care as long as I can walk away without feeling like I wasted my time.

Holy shit really? How and what happened? I really liked Varian from the comics and Wolfheart even though he was unoriginal as fuck.

>except forsaken
And the belfs, who got massacred. Technically, they're the remnants of the massacred high elves, but it's functionally the same.

And the draenei, who are whatever remnants of their civilization that could pile into the Exodar.

And the gnomes, who have exactly one city and a district in Ironforge.

Bilgewater goblins are just whoever managed to cram into one boat, but there are plenty of loosely affiliated goblins around. Ratchet's neutral, but it's right next to Org and Gazlowe is the man to thank for getting the orc capital on its feet.

There might be more worgen than gnomes, considering the size of their territory. And I don't just mean Goldshire.

Dunno about the size of the Darkspear, but there's enough trolls over Azeroth that if you packed their corpses together, you could get an island the size of Kezan.

Maiev isn't a wanted criminal anymore apparently. Seeing as how she commands a considerable force of wardens on the Lost isles. She is also the one who lent Cordana to Khadgar during the events of WoD.

The new cinematic with furry god showing Varian the middle finger is icing on the cake.

> Loas are just high as fuck troll spirits.
> "New warchief? Whaaat, I don't... hey! I would let that bitch be in charge of my Horde, if you see what I mean!"
> "I hear your wisdom, great spirits..."

How big is Galakrond anyway?

No, she is. The Watchers are basically led by Maiev, and after her plot failed, she didn't try again, obviously.

Wolfheart wasn't retconned, Jarod basically just forgave her. A literal 'Yeah... sorry.' moment.

>Garrosh wanted the job
He did?

I would follow them to the depths of Hel

Is there any sort of indication that she was somehow a woman of honour? She didn't seem to particularly mourn vol'jin anymore than her station demanded, and she certainly didn't seem to show any sort of remorse about what happened to Varian beyond "this'll fuck shit up in RvB when it really shouldn't"

I don't particularly mind her having a redemption arc, them pushing recognisable characters towards raid boss status (rip jaina) is really annoying and lazy

so far I haven't seen anything beyond sylvanas wanting to destroy the legion so she and her people (which has just grown from the forsaken to the horde) don't stop existing

I could be giving blizzard too much benefit of the doubt but I'm willing to see where the redeemed sylvanas arc goes

Garrosh most definitely did NOT want the job.

if she gets valkyr wings I hope she keeps her zombie puss

i just watched the legion cutscenes an hour ago

why would anyone want to discuss a story that is so complete dogshit?

Not so big that he couldn't pound Kirygosa's blue dragon pussy.

There is literally nothing about her that's redeeming.
That faggot is the same one who posts the "garrosh dindu nuffin" bullshit, so he gobbles fat orc dick already.

>where the redeemed sylvanas arc goes
If she really got one, she will ultimately sacrifice herself knowing what it means for her.

Once he got hyped on "Grom wasn't a bloodthirsty fucker! He was totally noble and died for our sins!" by a well intentioned but damn stupid Thrall, yeah.

Though he'd be the greatest warchief ever, expand Horde territory, all that shit he did in Cata and MoP.

'Cept Garrosh decided that 'the Horde' meant 'orcs, and whatever lesser races dutifully serve them.' So he alienated the orcs' closest allies, the tauren and trolls.

And despite his claims, it's pretty fucking obvious that Garrosh cares more about his ego and making a name for himself as more than 'Hellscream Jr.' than he does actually helping the Horde. After all, he's a hypocrite, completely willing to ignore Sylvanas defying orders and deploying the plague if it means dead humans. That's the character as presented, anyway.

Sucks, because Garrosh would've been a compelling hero OR villain if he was handled well.

Nothing in the game or books that I can remember off-hand, all my redemption info comes from spoilers for Legion.

In a way it's kiiiinda in her character to sudden;y worry about eternal damnation with Cairne, Garrosh and Vol'Jin dying off within the space of a few years, as the Horde is getting it's shit pushed in and she's done worse than 2, and is imo worse than Garrosh, because he was manipulated by Malkorok, whereas she is entirely self-serving.

So worrying about the afterlife and trying to get a bunch of good-girl points is technically part of her character, only in a spineless Eric Cartman style way.

It's just so out of place to see her suddenly care about this kind of thing. As she planned to murder her living kin just to raise them as undead.

For her to backtrack now, especially since she's committed chemical warfare atrocities of her own, seems incredibly lame, rushed, and half-assed.

I could get behind that. With proper build up, it could be pretty cool: Overcoming her fear of death and damnation for the sake of her people, and in so doing actually show she's learned something.

But please, Blizzard, dear god. Do NOT make her Kerrigan 2.0, at least not more than she already is. SC2's ending, just... please, the queen bitches can earn salvation, but that doesn't mean turning them into damn gods along the way.

I remember Garrosh not wanting the job, claiming his place is on the battlefield.