Weakest Planeswalker ever printed?

I'd put Ugin in Dack's place here desu.

if they got rid of the at random part he would be pretty good

Yes, because he'd be a turn 2 filter engine. As it is, he's a turn 2 "just fuck my hand up senpai" engine.

When basically all your cards are lightning bolt, the random discard does not matter. Hence, burn is his only niche. The minus 4 is perfect for it. Of course, every burn deck should have won before you can use his minus 4...

In a vacuum the new Lili is just bad. Will never see play anywhere once she leaves standard.

Neither will the new Nahiri

Nahiri sees play in Modern already, ya bumpkin.
mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=571&meta=51&f=MO
She has a whole damn archetype to herself.

That doesn't change the fact that Nahiri is a female planeswaker. Everyone knows that girls poop, therefore, any image that represents those dookie makers is vastly inferior to images that represent males.

Tibalt at least is rarely a priority for people, and can do some funny things in a madness deck.

If you're going to shitpost at least try and make it funny

It's not a shitpost. Girls actually DO shit, and it's disgusting and repulsive.

No, tibalt can't even do his second ability on the turn he arrives or let alone his ultimate.

Guildpact jace can at least be a horribly overcosted bounce. Tibalt just actively hurts you

You're actually implying that men don't poop.
I can't believe it. A solid 8 years since I last saw people vehemently denying the fact that girls poop and now we finally see the opposite side of the coin thanks to one retard.

...

>People building around Nahiri's ultimate ability
I really don't understand this. I thought the first rule of planeswalkers was "don't build around their ultimate". If you get it off you're already winning, why not just use Venser instead? He gives you more value out of snapcaster and vclique, his unblockability is a wincon in itself and you can add more permanents to benefit from his blink such as Wall of Omens or a titan.

Nahiri gives repetable removal and solid card advantage in the form of filtering which is huge. In other words, she alters the boardstate by either giving you ammo at a constant rate or fucking the opponent's shit up.

On the other hand Venser is a very potent walker capable of yielding a lot of value, but outside his ultimate he can't give you direct card advantage. Venser doesn't allow you to develop the boardstate, it only gives you new ways to work with what you've already got.

You could probably build Venser-Nahiri Control though. they work pretty well together after all.

You know, Tibalt is shit, undeniably, but I think it is a bit overstated. Desperate Ravings was a tournament card, despite discarding at random.

I feel if his second ability was something more relevant and graveyardy, he'd be good.

This guy is better than a lot of people think

He costs 2, what do you expect? I suppose he could have some use in some casual deck with a lot of Madness cards.

His first ability is problematic, ongoing card draw is tricky on a cheap pernanent. If the 'at random' part was dropped he would be far too good, free cycling every turn would be too much without him being costed a lot more restrictively. But putting the randomness in makes him unplayable. The only way to fit Tibalt is to alter his first ability to something else.

Throwing an Emrakul into a normal RWx Midrange/Control build isn't building around the ultimate. It's not like you're throwing in 8 big guys and 4 10 mana enchantments like in Legacy Omni-Tell. You're just playing a regular deck with 1 Emrakul splashed in just in case.

This guy could actually be good in a BUG Delirium deck.

...

Good in EDH when you have a friend who's a token player.

Or in Modern Sideboards if Abzan Tokens ever becomes popular

Dack is one of the only legacy playable walkers, hes insane and pretty much every EDH game ive been able to get more than one use out of him has resulted in me winning

I thought Dack wasn't legacy playable but was insane in Vintage.

I always get the two mixed up, but hes raw power and you cannot beat faithless looting on a stick that punishes artifacts and an ultimate that just says "If you can target that shit, its yours now"

He's only played in Legacy in formats where there is a popular artifact deck. At the moment, neither Tezzerator nor Affinity is even on the map.

In Vintage he sees play because of Moxen and MUD.

I like this guy in Mimeoplasm Commander. The +1 fuels your gameplan, the -3 is a nice bit of removal should you need it, and the -8 resets yards and hands favorably. It's niche, but it's not useless.

I always liked his design. Never found the right place to play him though.

DELET.

Combos with Hidimitsu's Second Rite.

>hidimitsu

I agree. It's only expensive because everyone is hype that it's going to be the next good lilly, ignoring the fact that even though it's cost effective, the +1 is niche, the -2 is god awful, and the -8 is good, but no where near good enough. It's good in standard because there are lots of 1 toughness creatures to nuke. In commander, not so much. I couldn't even see it being used in modern.

The new Lili is actually quite fun. But she's just that, "fun" and nothing more. I have her in my R/B eldrazi sacrifice deck and man she's pretty bonkers in it if I don't have another 3 drop or if she's late in the game. I can't see her last a long time in standard and in modern? Yeah no she won't last, she kills very little in Matchups that count. I won't even mention the other Eternal formats because she seems like ultimate trash. Maybe in a planeswalker pillow fort deck where she can easily ultimate and build up

That seems kind of broken as a non-Magic player.

It's really not. The word "exactly" makes the card totally useless 99.9% of the time. Sure, it's game ending if they have exactly 10 life, but actual hidestugu is way fucking worse.

It's kind of difficult to get someone to a target life total. If you're off by even one it doesn't work

Dack is a Legacy and Vintage staple.

It's a card you'd have to build around to get it to work. Triskaidekaphobia is another similarly wacky card that may at first seem strong to you. It can be, but again, you have to build around it.

...

>4 CMC
>Comes in with 2 loyalty

No thanks.

>he doesn't like UNLEASH THE KRAKEN Kiora.

Let's take a peak:
>targeted protection as a +1
>-1 is literally explore
>-5 wins you the game

It's pretty good user, just run it and see.

Don't know about constructed, but she's pretty strong in cube.

It is, but I think I still prefer Master of the Depths in all honesty. If you could somehow get both ultimates running...

Ah, we just have different styles. I'm a pretty linear face smash sort of player, and I love land ramp. I'm guessing you like drawing cards and cycling things. Sure, that Kiora isn't awful, but I'd much rather have the other one 7/10 times because it can protect itself. Untapping creatures in simic just doesn't really do anything for me.

Actually, no. I too love the ramp into beaters strat (been a Gruul man for a very long time). I just think Kiora 2 is a better design.

>Gruul man
I think we just became friends. Fair enough, I have a special attachment to the other because one of the first things I ever bought was that duel deck featuring her and elspeth.

Get these filthy gruul peasants away from me, they'll smear my azorius guild cloak

NOT GRUUL?
THEN DIE!

Oh, pardon me mr fancy collar. Sorry my play strategy involves this.

>countered

>you take 6 damage
>I cast it from my command zone again next turn
It's not that easy user.

>I don't know how magic works

>I don't know how state-based triggers work
If the card read "While ruric thar is on the battlefield..." but as soon as it's on the stack, you cast your counterspell, the damage goes on the stack above the counterspell, then it resolves.

Wut? You truly have Gruul intellect.

Unless I'm missing something I'm fairly certain creature spells have to actually resolve before they can have any effect

Otherwise wouldn't protection from instant be effectively preventing countering?

The point of counterspells is stopping Ruric Thar from resolving therefore he wouldnt do shit since he doesn't really exist until his spell resolves. If there was a Cast clause like the big Eldrazi then you would have an argument.

I play Casual only, but I fucking love Kiora and run a UG deck using both of her cards, and have gotten both Ults out. As soon as I crack the second Ult, I cast Devastation Tide, and the Krakens do the rest.

It's beautiful.

>devastation tide
>not whelming wave
>come on dawg

Is this bait?
Thar has to be on the battlefield for the effect to even take place. If the opposite were the case, Thalia on the stack would have made Mana Leak 3cmc during that standard era; which it didn't.

I understand what you think the point of Ruric Thar is, but his ability is state based, meaning it's active the second it's on the stack. Some random guy summarized it nicely:

>His ability triggers when a spell is cast, which is the moment when a player puts a spell on the stack to resolve. Ruric's ability goes onto the stack and resolves first, dealing 6 damage to that player. Then the spell resolves. The ability only cares when a spell is cast, whatever happens to it after that doesn't matter. It could resolve, get countered, get exiled, bounced back into someone's hand, etc.

I don't know about that particular case, but with my man Thar, you're not correct.

I run both, of course, but Devastation Tide is just much more fun when you're looking at a battlefield of just lands and then the Krakens start dropping, fighting and destroying anything my friends even think about playing.

In what universe? If you can cast a 2BB permanent you should already be at delirium.

This guy.

I got a thing for flavor, but I guess you're right. Never hurt to have something like Devastation Tide. Though if you can, Kederekt Leviathan is great too.

Abilities like this only trigger if the permanent with them is actually on the battlefield! While casting Ruric he is still on the stack, and can be countered without any damage being dealt out!

Only after he has entered the battlefield without being countered does his ability come in to play, and all noncreature spells cast after it will be punished.

My life is about flavor, I don't build a deck unless I can get it in there. Which is why I got both, the Krakens coming are causing that huge DEVASTATION TIDE, EHHH? I'm funny as shit. Definitely gonna have to grab that Leviathan though, not sure how I didn't know about him.

A lot of good shit slips under my radar. Don't sweat it.

there aren't any elves in Gruul, it's what sets them apart from the other green guilds

I know, but it's Bloodbraid Elf. I love BBE.

he's a creature, he has to exist on the field for his ability to work, unless otherwise stated.

you are tremendously bad at magic.

Hold the fucking phone senpai.
I made one of the most fun decks I've ever play in casual centered around that, havoc festival, sulfuric vortex, necrogen mists, and waste not. It was literally - we're playing a game, and that game is going to end in 10 minutes regardless of what happens.

I don't even play magic, I just find Planeswalker design really interesting.

That said, would it be better if instead of immediately doing the random discard it happened at the end of a later phase? Or simply the end of your turn?

Meh, Jace nixilis is okay

His CMC is too high to be really useful.

You see I've never tried him but I love Ob, is there really that massive of a difference?

While HE is on the stack he is a creature card named Ruric Thar that is RG and cost 6. So while he is on the stack his ability is not in effect, thus being free to counter without taking damage. However if he was in play and I go to path him, path would go on the stack targeting him, trigger his ability, I take 6, then he gets pathed. No his ability is not a state based effect that is very very wrong, it is a triggered ability that happens when he is ON the battlefield.

I mean, yeah. Because then you could use him to just draw a card when you have no cards in hand.

Mind posting you decklist with Kiora?

> would it be better if instead of immediately doing the random discard it happened at the end of a later phase?
Significantly so you skeleton. You essentially get rid of the discard entirely because red decks dump their hand 99% of the time. You'll almost never discard anything in practice because you'll cast all the cards in your hand before the discard hits you.

I run her in commander as her +1 is ALL damage which shuts down a particular Ob Nixilis the Fallen in my group from doing landfall damage and unblockable combat damage.

REEEEEEEEEE DELET