Space: Air force or Navy

>AF or Navy

Both.

FTL voidships (generally incapable of atmospheric operations) would form our Black Navy [a branch distinct from the obviously unrelated Blue Navy], while atmospheric craft capable of interplanetary (but not interstellar) flight would be Air Force - possibly renamed the Aerospace Force.

As usual, both would provide taxi service for Marines ...

air force is more realistic (of the two options), navy is more cool.

>There's a reason space ships come in fleets, and they are almost always modeled after the navy in fiction.

This.

Anything capable of going interplanetary should be under the navy. A specific planet's air force may have ships that can operate in near orbit, but anything actually out in middle of space, whether between planets or between stars, should be put together organizationally.

And by navy I mean Black Navy, the space fleet. Separate from the planetary navy.

Gotta have close air support for the ground forces. That or a way to ferry infantry from space to a planet (or vice versa).

>Pretty much. When airforces came into being during WW1, there was no discussion whether they'd be "sky armies" or "sky navies". They were an entirely different thing with an entirely different name.
Well, not entirely. In cases like the US abd USSR, the air forces were part of the army.

The same thing would probably happen with the space force, except probably start as a sub branch of the air force (like it is now for the US and others) , and then eventually break into its own separate branch.

Black Navy? I fucking love that.

There's no air in space, is there?
But, navy only refers to ships, not water specifically.

It's still a dumb question because once you get to space, planetary-only forces become useless, except as a peace-keeping force. 40k has it right in that aspect.
>Space Navy (including armsmen, i.e. marines)
>Space Army (transported by the navy where the need to go)
>Planetary Defense Force, i.e. national guard that sits on each planet in the event anything comes up

Done.

>we wuz...admirals and shiet?

Well Macross had the U.N.Spacy, but that sounds retarded.

Void Navy?

This, It's the Spacy.

would most likely go to navy because
1) navy is used to living on their ships
2) navy is already best air force in the world
3) air force doesn't actually do anything
honestly giving the stargate to the air force was the most unrealistic thing about that series

in all seriousness though, seeing as how navy nukes have gone something like 60 years without having a single nuclear accident, they're the ones more likely to be trusted with whatever reactor powers interstellar flight

AF doctrine and practices are based around craft which can remain in operation without support for hours at a time.

Navy doctrine and practices are based around craft which can remain in operation without support for months at a time.

An AF model might make sense for local space. Apollo 11 got to the moon in about 3 days, so if we assume the year 2200 has better engines anything within the radius of the moon's orbit would be accessible within hours. Luna and near earth space stations would have to maintain continuous combat space patrols (CSPs) to ensure the earth based forces didn't catch them with their pants down. Earth forces would have to do the same.

Unless you've got FTL, you'd need a Naval model for forces operating out as far as Mars.

>Trying to world build and I want to watch you guys debate whether or not military space ships fall under the air force or the Navy.
>space ships
>air force or the Navy
>space
>ships

This, but the operational needs are totally different. You're not going to be taking sailors (or airmen for that matter) and giving them a month of training before sending them to space. It would be its own career and command structure, entirely separate from terrestrial forces. If it did anything important, they'd be their own branch.

Fun fact, groups of satellites are known as a "constellation".

Came here to post constellation.

And to shill for Atomic Rockets ( just don't go to his Rho page) because damn it's a fine resource.

Air Force translates better on a personal level - pilots go through similar stresses and require similar operational skills as astronauts. Navy translates better on the grander scale - a spacecraft and a ship are required to function in relative isolation for extended periods of time. Giving either astrological jurisdiction seems dumb though, space should be its own thing.

Slightly off-topic; what sort of military 'units' would be logical in 'the future'? As in, would recon infantry have any place in a universe with FTL spacecraft, or tank regiments?

>just don't go to his Rho page
His what?

>As in, would recon infantry have any place in a universe with FTL spacecraft, or tank regiments?

Yes. There are definitely places for people who are able to go look at things, or armoured vehicles on the ground. Afghanistan is a beautiful example of the fact that overwhelming air superiority cannot win a battle on their own. Even the Gulf War would have been very different if the Iraqis had a decent way to stop the bombing.

I think Navy sounds cooler.

In our world, it may make more sense for the Air Force to take care of most aerospace affairs... But the world you are describing is quite different.

Air Force relies on stationary land bases, occasionally utilizing in-flight re-fueling to keep units in the sky for long periods of time.

Navy air power relies on mobile, independent carriers, much more similar to what you're describing. The Navy can also transport and support personnel and material, required for colonization.

Plus, you can't have Space Marines without Marines, who are technically under the Navy.

projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/

He has a personal page linked from Atomic Rockets that has 90s era graphics that seems to trigger people whenever I post Atomic Rockets.

As to your future military, at the end of the day you need to still seize and hold territory and INF are still the best. Precision weapons still need to be guided, structures and HVTs need to be secured, targets IDed etc.

For a future setting, if it's INF it's going to be special forces/ ranger tier quality just for your bread and butter.

Your post gives me the idea that you have a Spacy and a Aerospace force/System guard. The first is your standard interstellar Navy, but an AF analogue would fit for short term in system operations operating from fixed bases. Air Force+ Coast guard for interplanetary, Spacy for interstellar ops.

This.

The Aerospace Force or Spacy or what-the-fuck-ever would probably bud off of the Air Force the same way that budded off of the Army and Navy (more so the former than the latter). It begins with as the original branch expands more and more into this new field. As specialization of needs and operations continues, and with a growing need for it to be able to operate on its own terms rather than being part and parcel of an increasingly unrelated set of operations, it would be split off into its own department.

Whatever it eventually works out to be, it's not going to be descended from the Navy. Any similarities would be convergent evolution, not because the Navy is in charge of space. No one is ever going to go "alright, the Air Force has been handling space so far, but really a military is space will work like a Navy so now the Navy is in charge and will take it from here." Even within the Navy, for all the talk of ships, it's the submarines that are probably the closest to what space ships would be like personnel management-wise.

The only reason we ever even consider the Navy as appropriate is because of Science Fiction likes to use it as a more recognizable metaphor for readers. Stargate was the only one that even got the idea right. To be fair, most series don't bother with examine how a space military came about anyway and just have it fully formed as it's own thing. And we think "it's like water ships, but in space. And the Navy has air craft anyway." It's like thinking "why would an Air Force be it's own thing? We've got it just fine between the Army and Navy and air craft are really just like small water ships, but in the air. And the Navy has infantry anyway. It should be the Navy if any thing." It's not going to be the Air Force any more than the Air Force is the Army, but it's even less going to be the Navy.

This is only for something even pretending to be based on our history anyway. An especially US history at that.

When speaking in terms of mobilising fleets of large scale support and logistics ships, the Navy makes more sense. If people were flying small crew (1-3 people) attack/recon/bombing ships then that would fall more in line with air force.
It also comes down to how the crews are being ordered. If the smaller ships are being flown as a squadron with direct orders and required a high level of management, that would lend itself to the way the air force operates whereas captains of their own large vessels are responsible for managing their own little ecosystem and how they interoperate with the others in their fleet to serve their admiralty.

That picture makes me wonder.

What's the optimal temperature for inside a space ship? Outside is cold, but some good insulation and the warmth of the engines would offset that. I imagine you'd want it in the mid 20's, comfortable enough that you can wear minimal clothing and have full range of motion.

>Outside is cold, but some good insulation and the warmth of the engines would offset that.

>Engine warmth
>A good thing

Once you had reached this point, you would need an entirely new force.

Said new force would essentially be the Navy. With any planetary landing forces becoming this new space navy's Marine Corp.

I don't like it, because it sounds less like a legitimate branch of the military and more like either a rogue faction or a black ops division that officially doesn't exist. Not like a space navy.

I'd just go with Starfleet.

Outside is not cold. It's a vacuum. There's nothing to BE cold, unless you're passing through a pocket of gasses. Staying cool is the problem aboard a spacecraft, at least in high orbit, where you're getting bombarded with solar radiation for most of the 'day'.

Space/Star Force
Interstellars
Aerospace Arms
Cosmics

the only reason the Navy is as air centric as it is is because you still need boats to get your planes close enough to get them where they need to be and back in time to refuel. If we were talking escaping the atmosphere on scramble for planetary defense it might still be Naval, but if we're talking about sustained orbital patrol with space stations and moon bases and inter galactic fleets, then it might at least start as an expansion of the Airforce, but more likely be a new branch all together.

Radiative heat loss is still a thing. Space is 4 Kelvin, plenty of heat leaving the ship through EM waves.

I'm picturing a Star Trek style ship, with lots of air pockets and wasted space. Radiating heat outside is going to take a back seat to appropriately channeling warmth from heat sinks at the engine/reactor around the ship. That bridge and all the equipment there isn't going to stay in acceptable temperature ranges by itself.

>what sort of military 'units' would be logical in 'the future'?

Robots. Everything would be robots. And nanotechnology. Fucking microscopic robots.

Automated stealth drones would enter the tactical theatre and deploy combat ecologies of nano disassemblers to fuck your shit up by breaking your shit down.

The ISS has great big radiator panels specifically because all the equipment generates enough heat to rise above acceptable temperature ranges. That is only going to get worse for any ship with an on-board reactor.

WARMING through EM waves is a problem for ships in relatively (as in not out by saturn) solar orbits, that's the very reason the ISS is and the shuttle was painted white in fact.

>Of all the current branches of the military, Space should take after the navy.
Barring some amazing advances in propulsion, yes.
A typical trip that only needs one piss bag will encourage an Air Force structure, while a slower travel speed will encourage more Navy-like logistics and command structures.

Both forces demand to be on the frontlines in the new black horizon, and form two seperate offshoot space forces to do so.

Their rivalry turns cold one day... and then, a few years later, it turns hot.

In the US the Air Force has basically already become obsolete as an actual air force because it's easier to have attached naval air units do stuff than to set up air bases everywhere. They're already starting to do aerospace stuff for precisely that reason, so an American space force would probably be grown out of the USAF.

However, a new government without the existing traditions of any nation would probably grow its Space Force out of whole cloth, perhaps drawing from personnel from wherever it can but utilizing a new structure and chain of command designed specifically for the task. This would suffer from a lack of tradition and pride, but it would have the benefit of a lack of baggage and existing inter-branch rivalries.

To be truthful, a spaceship would have more in common with a COB than it would with a warship or an airbase, you might as well have the Army run it if you're looking for who would do the best job. As long as there's no actual fighting involved, they'd do fine.

>Slightly off-topic; what sort of military 'units' would be logical in 'the future'?

Rocks. Either fitted with an ftl drive or simply accelerated by a rocket up to near c. Relativistic weapons don't require warheads to wreck massive destruction, and by their nature you get almost no warning when one is about to hit you.

In Attack Vector Tactical, while most space forces are considered a navy, and the Medinan force an Air Force, the Novaya Russian space force is part of the Army and all its craft are "Mobile Artillery Platforms"

It makes more sense for the airforce to cover space, since rockets and the like are developed by the airforce and they have the most experience with stuff like aerodynamics and thrust / mass ratios.Once a space force becomes established, tho, it seems very likely a new, specific branch of the military will be created for them. Because of the influence of the airforce in the early days, this new force would likely inherit a lot of jargon and doctrines from the air force, but they'd also want their own unique terminology to cover concepts important to them, and to distinguish themselves from the other branches.

Also, the space combat presented in AV:T is very similar to air combat, in that being able to evade missiles, and trying to get a bearing and relative velocity where your missiles are most effective and hardest to escape, is very important.

SEPARATE BRANCH IS THE ONLY WAY TO BE, ADAM AND EVE NOT ADAM AND STEVE OKAY? PRAISE JESUS.

No, but being serious, if the Marines came from the Navy, and if the Airforce were a derivation of the Army, then it would stand to assume that as aerospace technology fielded by the United States Airforce develops to the point of practical application, the individual identity of the United States Space Division would become hard to ignore.

FOR A WHILE, Navy and Airforce might compliment each other in most spatial conditions, where the airforce might accommodate the more experimental, high flying designs, the navy would focus on the more logistical aspects of space flight, such as overseas docking, sea-based landing crafts, satellite and downed ship retrieval, and a whole slew of other, boring, technical shit.

Thus, as the role of the United States Space Division becomes more and more defined, and as technology continues to introduce itself to our world, the Space Division would become a branch all on its own. And the reason I keep repeating "Space Division" is because that's pretty much what it is. It's a division between the United States Airforce and the United States Navy to create something unique LIKE a branch, all on its own.

In the future it would be "The Marines came from the sea. The Airforce came from the land, and...from a combined experimental mission spearheaded by the United States Airforce and logistically backed by the United States Navy came the United States Space Division?"

I mean, that's really about as logical as it gets, I would assume.

I was going to call them The United States Space Command, but then it would seem like I'm plagiarizing both the UNSC AND the USCM

I freaking love the idea of "The Black Navy" being some sort of off-the-books elite navy, but acronyms are where it's at.

I stand by either "United States Space Division" (USSD), or "United States Space Corps" (USSC), which actually makes a whole lot more sense than "The United States Space Division".

United States Space Command was a real thing until 2002 when it was merged with United States Strategic Command and eventually came to be the Joint Functional Component for Space. Within the unified command, Air Force Space Command is the primary component for space based military issues.

radiation is by far the least efficient form of heat transfer.
There's a reason we use vacuums as the top end of insulation.
Even a space suit needs a significant cooling system because even people are energetic enough too cook themselves alive if left in space unassisted (igoring the lack of oxygen issue)

Why not United Nations Space Corps?

But that only works for the United States, you'd still need a general term that works for every country.

And that's why I like the suggestion of Starfleet and second it because "The German Starfleet, the Chinese Starfleet" etc. sounds good and makes sense.

Because I thought it would sound too much like "The United Nations Space Command :^)" from Halo.

Goddamn Bungie and James Cameron and shit. Always taking all the good names and shit.

Source?

Spaceforce or Starforce works too and has less specific connotations than fleet.

I actually like Aeorospacy. Pronounce it the way you would pronounce bureaucracy and it sounds very official.
Air-oh-spah-sea.

Gunbuster

The Military. Just the Military. When the Senate and Populace of Ariel declare independence and set about forming a military to resist the impending Lunar enforcer fleet, are they going to worry about millennia-old traditions of force division or are they going to do what works? When they need atmo craft to loiter in the Uranian atmosphere to do hit-and-run raids on Lunar stealth router pods, it's the Military. When they board the Juneau-Triton City cargo liner and raid the hold for triad mass drivers, it's the Military. Charting potential inbound orbits and analyzing for expediency and simulated enemy analysis; ambushing a cloud of special forces punts disguised as mendicants; stuffing Cressida with explosives and faking a retreat; there's no reason to set up any separate force to do that. Military operations require the Military.

Well I Imagine different countries would develop THEIR Space force in a similar, but personally distinct manner.

The UK might name theirs "The Royal English Space Command" (RESC), The Germans might base theirs entirely off of their navy, so theirs might become the "Deutsch Raum und Logistik Marine" (GSLN "for German Space and Logistics Navy"), and India might name their space program "Ek Chhadee Par Panjaabee" for POAS, or "Punjabi On A Stick".

But when you have space fleets ground fleets don't matter as much. Words attach to concepts that are used, which is why batteries aren't groups of artillery, coins aren't wedges used to push up cannons, and most of our pavilions are permanent structures.

>What is immersion?
>What is attention to detail?

I would never be satisfied with myself if I just handwaved it all away by saying "They're all just called 'The Military'".

The operations it sounds like you're describing would be entrusted with the efforts of either The Marines or The Navy or both.

I'd rather just put in the research to come up with a good conclusion to this jumbled mess than just saying "It was The Gubmint that did it!"

Secret Service? Oooh, how original. A secretive organization of bodyguards that protects heads of state, why don't you just call apple bearers and immortals apple bearers and immortals.

Nah, you colossal ass-poacher. The Secret Service exists to protect the Executive Branch. The Marines exist to be the first into battle. The Navy exists to extend military influence into foreign territory, and apple bearers bear my goddamn apples.

When the Senate of Ariel declare independence, they'll declare it with a MILITIA. When they need atmo craft to loiter in the Uranian atmosphere to do hit-and-run raids on Lunar stealth router pods, they'll do it with an AIRFORCE. When they board the Juneau-Triton City cargo liner and raid the hold for triad mass drivers, it's the INDEPENDENT ARIEL SPACE FORCE. And when they'restuffing Cressida with explosives and faking a retreat, they'll hide their tracks with the goddamn BLACK HATS.

Everything has a name, and everything has a purpose. It's not my fault you're a big dumb frick.

I love you so much.

Yep, and every one of them gets their own org structure and reports separately to the Senate. Oh, wait, they're short on manpower and can't afford to grow a huge encrusted military bureaucracy like established nations have.

Sure, the dudes on the atmo ships might call themselves an air force and draw birds on their ships and the fillies charting orbits will print out Math Ranger t-shirts with their rare paychecks but they will eat in the same cafeteria, they will wear the same uniform, and they will receive their rare paychecks from the same desk.

You're not trying to see if there's a point to just calling it Military. Maybe the Senate wants solidarity in a population divided by class and ethnicity. Maybe they want to demonstrate that they won't ever vac-tan their enemies' hides like all the other independent space forces, maybe they want to show off their new AI-based ultra-efficient organization theory, maybe they're all just scared civilians who didn't expect to ever plot a kill orbit until last week and they don't KNOW all the names and purposes.

Neither, moron. They get their own branch.

>I would never be satisfied with myself if I just handwaved it all away by saying "They're all just called 'The Military'".
Okay, but the Peoples' Liberation Army gets all the ships and planes. Happy?

Actually the setting I originally had "The Military" in had humanity spending thousands of years peacefully united under a harmony-maximizing ultra-powerful state religion before we encountered intelligent life and every single race wanted to kill us, and they're trying to set up a fighting force but all they've got is myths and legends about what militaries actually do.

Look, buddy. All I'm saying is, if one of my players comes up to me during the game and says:

"There's no way those explosions were guerrillian-- Corhol mercenary? Uganda Marines?"

I'm going to look right back at him and I'm going to say:

"No...No. These were the work of people well armed and well trained. These were the work of the Ariel Black Hats."

Look, man. He clearly said Ariel's got a senate and a populace. We're not talking post-dystopia Zimbabwe here, we're talking a fully functioning movement without the boundaries of a governing planet.

13 colonies once held a thousand minutemen. In two short years, they had a navy, an army, a recon, and The French.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that's totally within the bounds of what I was saying. They're Black Hats, they're proud of it, the first thing they do when escaping from the enemy brig is make a hat from the first piece of black cloth they lay eyes on. But when their families petition the Senate for information on their whereabouts, the denial letter just has "MILITARY" stamped across the top.

There's only one recruiting corps, and they fill kids' heads with fantasies about whatever appropriate unit they might be convinced they can join. There are no Joint Chiefs because there's just a Chief. There is no Spacy-Atmo crashball game. That sort of thing. Not saying every single unit is called The Military, just that it's not a law of nature that armed forces have to be separate.

Is there "Air" in space?

If you're pushing c outside of a major gravity well aerodynamics can become a major issue.

Air Force would be like Earth's National Guard, maintaining defense systems and having fighters ready to go at a moments notice. Navy would be for long distance trips, either on diplomatic missions or to deter other planets from trying to build up an oppostion in the first place. That's not to say that Air Force wouldn't leave Earth. They'd probably have bases on all colonized/occupied worlds.

Spacy.

well that sounds fucking terrifying

Until we figure out a way to defend against it. Sure, it's hard to think of one, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Depending on your scale, Casaba-Howitzer reactive armor could solve a lot of problems.

Yeah, I'd imagine different countries would do it differently, but "space-" or "star-force" would come into general use for military forces in space, despite the fact that the actual vehicles and crews in question might be from any number of services - just like how the difference between a marines force and an army force may not be apparent to a layman

So Russia might keep their Aerospace Force with its existing Space Command, the US might keep their existing force or, have it evolve into a separate Corps of the Air Force the way Marines are to the Navy, or create a new branch the same way they did the Air Force.
China might have a new branch in the PLA Space/Star Force (though they have the PLA Rocket Force, so you never know), in the UK it might be a component of the Royal Navy.
New emerging powers might have a space branch from the get-go, and some might go the totally unified route

Not a terrible name when you say it like that, but I think people would fall into "pay" rather than "pah" - it'd take a while for it to catch on at least

Whipple shields, monica

Got that in reverse.

In one novel I didn't read there was a successful orbital colony cluster that called itself the Highlands. The US invades with the "United States Highland Corps." That seems like a decent name for outer-space objects, it's not like we have to use the word "space."

On a slightly related note, I'm working on a list of arcane and confusing terms for space colonies, perfect for cryptic prophecies and treaty loopholes. Here's what I've got:

Military training space stations are called aldershots. Rangeries are environmental stations ideal for raising domestic or wild animals. Singaps (Tagalog for gasp) are non-breathable stations of any kind, with letters (haleter) being non-pressurized and poesoes (pozo) pressurized but asphyxiating. Unpressurized freefall factory stations are often known as bowries or bodarks, when fully automated as ixtils, and when crewed by involuntary or long-term labor as galleries. Unarmored pure residential stations are known as brownstones. Camouflaged residential stations are rills. Stations capable of manipulating very large objects are called roads (always plural). Large mixed-use stations are called colonies, unless they do not have maternity wards, in which case they are rises; smaller mixed-use stations are called asilos, unless they do not carry or eject propellant, in which case they are dormitories. Stations dedicated to the collection and storage of energy are called brennens.

Anyone have more?

>Newly colonised planet begins setting up a military.
>Blue navy, aerospace, ground army and black navy.
>Decades later, hasn't been a naval engagement... ever, due to the supremacy of space forces and no-one carrying boats in their dropships.
>Blue Navy becomes a glorified retirement scheme for Black Navy officers.
>Puttering around in outdated PBs and DDs.
>Most important duty is making sure there's a spare fishing rod aboard each ship for when the president drops by.
>Essentially an entire service branch of Jack O'neill finally getting his day off.

Comfy RP campaign when?

Pirates and gangbangers, monica

Hey Bill, can you please shut up about Monica? Hillary is gonna have a fit again.

All the pirates are space pirates, because 1. Not all that much sea shipping on a world that's not massively developed yet.
2. No one is going to let somalians on their colony ships.
3. Everyone thinks sea-pirates are boring when they could be SPACE PIRATES instead and have a cool spaceship instead of a leaky dinghy.

Some pirates could be old black navy veterans who aren't satisfied with their pensions.

I wouldn't discount the blue navy entirely. Even if the enemy has orbital superiority, nuclear subs could be useful to bomb landing sites or maybe even act as a successor to the Looking Glass planes of today.

>'piracy' is just complaining, shouting at other ships to "get off my ocean", and refusing to keep a spare mug aboard for visitors.
>Occasionally though, they take 'extreme measures'
>Which invariably play out like an episode of Last of the Summer Wine, with a bunch of old men try an ill-thought out madcap scheme.

>pirates are given letters of marque to board and entertain cruise ships
>occasionally a girls' high school yacht club has to fill in

...

I love blue navies and this hurts me.

Transhuman Space went both ways, IIRC. The US military spaceships were under USAF command because of tradition, and the Brits had a navy due to likening spaceship ops and combat as similar to nuclear submarines.

>Loves blue navies
>Posts a battleship

Real life hurts too, user.