Horus Heresy General /hhg/

Tale of the Boxman Volume Four: No Box No Glory Edition
I'm a legionary until the day I die Sub-Edition
You nigmos done with unrelated lore? Good. Great now I can't think of a summary. See it all in the last thread. Red Books Links:
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.zippyshare.com%2Fv%2Fs15Jqk1t%2Ffile.html
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmega.nz%2F%23!Jx1UGCTI!vMJN89z7p8tiEC7YOAj477g6RxDtJ7culVLF3q3godg
HH Book 6 - Retribution PDF:
mediafire.com/download/8aqx9j3a8erqv8d/The_Horus_Heresy_Book_6_-_Retribution.pdf or
sys.Veeky Forums.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fkat.cr%2Fthe-horus-heresy-book-6-retribution-pdf-t12199249.html
HHG FAQ - pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
Official HH 7th Edition Errata (Updated January 2016) - forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf
Other official downloads: forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads#horusheresy
HH Rules:
Age of Darkness Army List: mediafire.com/download/f0c2pnieoijyrqk/Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness Army List.pdf
Mechanicum Taghmata Army List: mega.nz/#!LFwTjQ7B!mF0eVOY8P1MPT0a-QSXypXo_ZfskhYynD41PrkaTbD8
30k/40k Rules: mega.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ!EVh0GZZS
30k/40k Rules and more (torrents): kat.cr/usearch/"Forge World" heresy user:epistolary/
30k Black Library: mega.nz/#F!0RlxDZQC!qAu9BaubWa3KeihJRmOcsg
Strawpoll links: strawpoll.me/10558764
www.strawpoll.me/10663447

How can we further improve this?

Fury of the Ancients 2k Iron Warriors, "Wrath of Bitter Grandpas"

-HQ
Delegatus, 65

Forgelord, 85

Primus Medicae, 95

-Elites
2xLegion Rapier Weapons Battery, 40 (80)
+Shrapnel Bolts

-Troops
2xContemptor Dreadnought Talon, 525 (1500)
+Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, free.
+Shrapnel bolts, free

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon, 175
+Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, free
+Shrapnel bolts, free

Complete Total, 2000

...

>XXXIX
Wake me up inside. Save me from the grimdark future where there is only novels. And make that Geneviève look younger. He's the youngest Primarch, and should look it.

>Great now I can't think of a summary
Excuses excuses
>Last thread we continued the talk about Morturg and the renegade Deathshroud Khorak, who happens to be the same dude pictured in HH2, Destroyer user got an idea for poison pants, Angron got his steaks well done™ and the Sisters of Silence abandoned the imperium that hates the fleur de lis. Some Thunder Warriors appeared, an Alpha operative did some magik, it's not easy being a dread, and the IF does everything better than you. Yes, you, along some others in the last thread...

If the Emperor is a Perpetual, then how come he can't heal the wounds inflicted on him by Horus? Other Perps quickly heal the damage they receive, even if it was fatal.

My list got buried by that ork shitposting.
Ironwing - 2490pts
Dread drops in first turn next to the biggest threat forcing the enemy to either charge it or move somewhere less optimal. Vindicators and Predators clear the field as best they can while the Vets outflank and hunt infantry. There are some areas I could afford to drop points on (take some toys from the HQ, the Phosphex Discharger, and some tank options like dozer blades) but no where I could really add stuff.

HQ 207pts
Damocles Command Rhino 100pts

Delegatus, Artificer Armour, Bolter, Melta Bombs, Refractor Field, Terranic Greatsword 107pts

TROOPS 330pts
Tactical Squad, Rhino, Dozer Blade 165pts

Tactical Squad, Rhino, Dozer Blade 165pts

Elites 713pts

x9 Vets, Marksmen, 1x Heavy Bolter with Acid Shells, Rhino, Dozer Blade 213pts

x10 Vets, Marksmen, 2x Heavy Bolter with Acid Shells, Rhino, Dozer Blade 250pts

x10 Vets, Marksmen, 2x Heavy Bolter with Acid Shells, Rhino, Dozer Blade 250pts

Heavy Support 1240pts

Predator Squadron 360pts
x3 Predators, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Pintle Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade

Vindicator Squadron 470pts
x2 Vindicators, Auxiliary Drive, Combi-Weapon, Dozer Blade, PotMS
x1 Vindicator, Auxiliary Drive, Combi-Weapon, Dozer Blade

Leviathan Dreadnought, Grav-flux Bombard, Siege Drill, Phosphex Discharger, Drop Pod 410pts

The damage was so massive that it takes a full death to reset

Anyone have a copy of that free 5 or 6 part Night Lord story above Istvaan V that was on black library for a couple of days? No mobile device :(

Massacre, I believe it was called.

Why must the ultramarines be jerked off even in 30k, and why must iron warriors be down trodden by all

Torrent the Eye of Terra.
If you supposedly can't because you're on a phone, well it sucks because I've downloaded and read most of the stuff from my phone during night shifts.

Perpetuals don't regenerate easily it's just they're ressurected easily

That's not wank, the Ultramarines Legion was designed with macro management in mind, that IS their specialty.

Guilliman's singular ode to genius is his capacity to understand and implement various systems both original as well as copied.

They're all the same age matey. Just found at different points in the GC

Went to FW to check if the chain axe shit post is in the public FAQ and damn it's down

Only the Emperor and Malcador can judge me.
Decima took it down.

Turns out they're indeed not the best they could be. A-at least they're very expensive, r-right?
>Guilliman can give them Interceptor and regular Termies become troops
Just end my pain already.
>That's not wank
>Proving himself ONCE AGAIN the master of ALL the myriad disciplines of war.
HH5 felt like "the UM suffer a great blow, but our boys shall prevail no matter what, because the good boys always win! Unless you're the RG, IH or Sallies, that is". Why must they alone be so good at everything?

>Why must they alone be so good at everything?
because he's the only primarch who realized logistics were a thing that was important. Everyone else decided to be autistic about less important things.

Like they judged Lorgar? :^)

I dunno about that. Alivia was eviscerated by the Talon of Horus with her guts and spine all oer the place, hours later she was fine and reading the little Mermaid for her daughter.

Vulkan did drop from a ship into a planet. The damage he received, magically healed.

Do you have some kind of evidence for your statement? There's neither mention nor proof on it.

No, he was the only one who took care of logistics himself, the others relegated it to marines or humans.

I'm aare of that, user, but my question wasn't "how do they manage to be so good", but "why must Guilliman be the least autistic one".
Perturabo had great logistics, but he was like four times more autistic than the Lion himself, who was also a great general. And Alpharius had Just as Planned as big as his retarded need to prove himself, and Fulgrim also was a renowned strategist and his legion was paragon among marines...and you know how he ends up.

>the others relegated it to marines or humans
and that's why they're less good at everything

Mortals doing their part under marine supervision should be a good system.

but a less good system to mortals and marines doing their parts under primarch supervision

I'm really looking forward to this one, love me some imperial fist

I see Sigismund is still on the shit list

There's no mention or proof either way, don't shit up the thread for no reason.

So your problem is that there is a Primarch with less flaws than the Primarchs you personally like more.

Depending on personal taste, reasons for the Primarchs being autistic could easily be explained by a combination of genetic directive and cultural phenomena.

With Meta knowledge, you must clearly know there would inevitably be a Prime Primarch of sorts.

>No mention nor proof

Except the scene where all the vats of infant primarch are present in the Emperor's lab at the same time when they get warp fucked.

They were all made and all kidnapped by chaos at the same time. Take your suspicious tone and change it

Well, who do you think is the one that supervises marines?
It's a chain of command; the DG fought as one and be it a Captain or a mere sgt, everyone knew who his superior was.
Even individual tactical squads knew their hierarchy and were disciplined...
...too bad they only recruited from Barbarus, huh?

>So your problem is that there is a Primarch with less flaws than the Primarchs you personally like more.
...yeah, I'm letting my bias get the not-the-best-I-could-be of me. It's not bragging if it's true, I guess.
I guess it's not his fault he is the very best, like no one ever was. The Great Crusade is his real test, the Imperium is his cause...

Yes, Horus and sanguinius were the greet Primarchs, if guilliman is so amazing as they retroactively say then why wasn't he made war master

That is so, but that's no guarantee the pods got out of the rift at the same time. Warp hijinks and shit.

>why wasn't he made war master
Horus and sanguinius could work reasonably well with any primarch. Guilliman would not.

That's the reason.

>asks for proof
>receives it
>offers conjecture in return

He couldn't?
Horus really thought Sanguinius should have been the Warmaster, but maybe he was simply thinking less of himself at the time.

Look at Gorillamans interactions with alpharius-he could work well with most of his brothers, but not all of them. Thats what horus could do-manage his menagerie of brothers better than any other barring hawk-boy

>twenty ships enter the Warp at the same time
>
>
>
Yeah, your proof is rock-hard.

Guillaumme was envious of the big A's superior strategy, that's why he chided him at every opportunity.

Seems that way, if all the Primarchs where masters of war whats the issue with the Macro Management primarch being better at, I don't know, expanding his Legion?

I'm not arguing any point relating to who claimed the title of Warmaster, I am attempting to convey the subtle notion that Guilliman wasn't the "Best" his area of expertise enabled him to be successful in matters that impacted his ability to wage war on an economic level.

More to the point, the Ultramarine geneseed was used primarily to convert extreme military elements of pacified planets, turning cannibals, barbarians and otherwise unusable aspirants into loyal, steadfast astartes.

His Legion grew due to his geneseeds ability to overcome inherent social barriers in recruits, his focus on logistics and asset management compounded his Legions strengths.

Different guy
I'll agree they were all stole at the same time, but time is relative and also surely there were some rejects that never got a heart beat so there might be gaps of seconds Or days between Primarchs

The Ultramarines Geneseed increased competitiveness as well as aggression, pairing that with their honorific culture, their part in alienating the other Legions becomes increasingly clear.

Sure, the Ultras get tons of fan wank in 40k, 30k is a different beast, with their tendencies its obvious as to why the Emperor chose a different Legion.

a few days difference isn't going to cause alphy to not look the same age as his brothers, especially since they all hit maturity in such a short amount of time anyway

first heretic mention Lorgar being in the warp longer than the others, although given how time in the warp works this might not mean much

>48826030
>Still offering nothing to the original claim that Alpharius was the youngest.

At least we have the concrete that all the primarchs were created at the same time. Everything else, including your concept of which primarchs were "youngest" is pure conjecture and maybes

I'm not doubting you but can I get a source on the geneseed pacifying people because that's kickass
And it would make sense seeing how ultramar also had nurcia with their butchers nails and presumably their culture was assimilated by others

Why does Dorn look like Vince McMahon?

Maybe the stress of being responsible for building your father the best walls ever did a number on him

Why are there so many angry, illiterate, self-rightous cretins compared to usual? Last thread and this one, both have been awful

I've seen His smile in my dreams. I think I'm golden.

>not knowing it's the current season
I bet you don't even know the difference between a ultima and godwyn bolter

>easons for the Primarchs being autistic could easily be explained by a combination of genetic directive and cultural phenomena.
That or bad writing.

I want to know that too. Maybe it's one of the greatest mysteries of Horusmania.

Check out book five Tempest, the Ultramarines Geneseed was standard in nearly every way save for its psychological impact.

The XIIIth Legion didn't see its first muster until the end of the Unification wars, when their Legion inducted the more radical elements of the surviving Terran born opposition. It's theorized that this was intentional, due to the loyalty to command as well as hierarchy instilled by the geneseed. Supporting evidence cites the recruitment that came afterwards followed the same pattern to intentionally subjugate extreme recruits.

This is what enabled the Ultramarines to have unusually low standards for recruitment, their geneseed churned out astartes with utter loyalty and dedication to their Legion.

I'm not the guy who first claimed that. And what did you offer? Nothing solid, when your argument failed you turned to greentexting.

>geneseed pacifying people
It isn't pacifying, it makes them more prone to cohesion and hierarchy, source is Book 5 Ultramarines section.

>Guillaumme was envious of the big A's superior strategy
Alpharius was merely trolling the enemy that time he worked alongside Roboute, which to Primarchs would be akin to go to the movies and utter sarcastic comments on each scene.
Not the best way for brothers to bond. Didn't went just as planned, eh Alpharius?
See what I did there? A sarcastic comment no AL likes.

>whats the issue with the Macro Management primarch being better at, I don't know, expanding his Legion?
I was just bitter that he could take tech or strategy your legion was famous for (Tyrants, Ash Blind) and do it just as well through sheer plannig, that's all.
But that's what marines should indeed do, for they were meant to excel at everything, and specialization is for insects. I may do well in listening to what he says so eventually I can steal it from him and do it better :^)
>I'm not doubting you but can I get a source on the geneseed pacifying people because that's kickass
HH5.

The fluff presented in the HH army books are from an in universe perspective, presenting concepts without vagary or dramatic presentation. I'm citing only material from the HH rulebooks themselves.

Right, but this allowed them to recruit with lesser base standards due to it effectively compensating for mental/phsyical/ethical issues with recruits.

They where recruiting cannibals from Terra in the closing days of the Unification wars.These same marines didn't suffer from the psychological issues that the other Legions did.

That's pacification.

Forgive me, user. I'm scatterbrained today.

>Guillaumme was envious of the big A's superior strategy
literally EVERY primarch thought alpharius was a tosspot, except for horus

Maybe they decided to follow Blanche's art. So, Dorn has only two settings:
Stone-stoic and Blanche-Raawr

Guilliman is a fucking theif.

Sure, but if you look at the manner the XIIIth is spoken of, it's clearly expressed that Guilliman copied the other Legions tactics. Owing his own success in the more specialized theatres of war to his capacity to apply that information.

His ass was nothing special when it came to waging war in specialized theatres, copying systems and applying them to his Legion was his modus operandi, as seen in his practical application of correct logistical planning and material management.

There is NOTHING special about the Ultramarines.

When you put it that way, it is.

>There is NOTHING special about the Ultramarines.

It's not a weakness, they're jack of all trades, and they're good even in areas where other legion fall flat on their face.

I'd sure love to see a world eater do anything besides chainsword surgery.

>There is NOTHING special about the Ultramarines.
I was going to refute your claim by also saying the Dark Angels had nothing special being the base legion...but what do we know about them?

>Dark Angels had nothing special
homosexuality

No worries user. Wouldn't play Ultramarines anyway, but muh Warborn.

>they're jack of all trades
>jack of all trades
>Master of none

Agreed. Buisness as usual then, save for hopefully abolishing the idea that 30k Ultramarines are snowflakes.

Their shit is simple, applicable and not as effective in specialized operations.

>I'd sure love to see a world eater do anything besides chainsword surgery.
They don't count. Legions like the WE snd NL had serious mental issues.
What some would call "mono-task" legions, such as the DG and IW were merely ordered to do so, and simply didn't engage in other modes of warfare because they liked to win wars their way, not because they couldn't do so.
Just look at Morturg, the infiltrating psyker. Not your regular DG poster boy, huh?

Also, I liked it when Berzerkers weren't retarded axemen.

>There is NOTHING special about the Ultramarines.
Does having the best fashion sense in the galaxy count? The only ones who can even come close are Firedrake Terminators and the Pittsburgh Imperial Fists.

>Does having the best fashion sense in the galaxy count?
Some would agree with you...

...others would disagree...

...and I'd rather just keep it simple.

So if i am reading this right, your whole army (sans the characters) are armed with heavy bolters with shrapnel rounds?

Because thats terrible.

Torrents for Eye of Terra are virtually non-existant or non-functional to my googlefu.

Just looking for Massacre Parts 2-5/6.

I like them. Wouldn't paint them blue though.

Agreed, MkII, early crusade metalic grey.

as in, they also got a -wing and toys for whatever scenario you could imagine, right?
I'm trying to make a comparison between them, the UM and the AL, all of whom approached the same problem through different paths.

DA through the correct aplication of specialized -wings by otherwise normie marines.

UM by observing and learning, and putting that knowledge to use with a good chain of command

AL by being flexible, everybody being prepared to do anything needed of them, complex planning, autonomous leadership and ??? = profit.

>Why must they alone be so good at everything?
Because Guilliman isn't a showboating jackass. Guilliman has the humility to say "shit, that's a good idea. I wish I came up with it, I should copy it."

Except he is overly competitive, and kind of a jackass who showboats.

There ARE problems with the XIIIth Legions demeanor, they exasperated the tenuous personalities of the other legions with their behavior.

>Guilliman
You aren't doing it my way, therefore you're wrong
>Horus
Hey, we may have need for that one of these days, good job!

>all legions must adopt my book of tactics and Dorn must split his legion or I'll order the navy to fire on his ships
>humble

Not really, he gets the job done and moves on. Not like Alpharius "let them prepare because it would be 2 easy."

Overly competitive sure, but does he ever actually showboat? Even his back and forth with Alpharius could be seen as an attempt to get one of his brothers to improve and the EC section in book one mentioned Guilliman complimenting the EC for executing his own doctrines better than his own legion. When someone upstaged him he didn't get butthurt, he used what helped them do better, copied it, and improved upon it himself.

Tyrants are a perfect example, Guilliman sees tons of marines with cyclone missile launchers on their backs, slaps his forehead saying "why didn't I think of that?" and adopts it making his own improvements (although the improvements likely make them harder to field in large numbers hence the cost).

The only part that really mattered was the creation of chapters which was vital in order to prevent another heresy and to allow the chapters to operate more independently given the new state of defensive warfare the Imperium was forced into. Granted the idea of legions still existing with a supreme commander in place of a primarch in 40k would be badass.

Alpharius was famously arrogant, his legion even gets a rule for it.

Any company, other than Armorcast, make effects like smoke, muzzle flashes, etc.?

How many rogue trader minis do you guys use in your armies or is it all 2012+

Are melee focussed contemptors worth it? two fists and a cyclone or should I be gearing for double kheres?

My oldest models are a MkI Land Raider as a Proteus my Rraetor and command squad rides around in, a Space Crusade Dreadnought as a quad lascannon Mortis, and a pair of old metal Leman Russ Exterminators I'm currently using as dakka predators while hoping SW would get exterminators.

Does any legion even get CML on a contemptor?

>Martial Hubris as an indicator of arrogance
What about the DA's D3Vp rule. Would they flog themselves for merely achieving victory rather than roflstomping the enemy?

>flog
No. They would brood more.

I meant havoc launcher, I still default think of it as a cyclone.

Depends. Can all legions get a MMelta as a LR pintle mount? Of course they can.

He would’ve been good as warmaster, except for the part about giving his brothers orders and having them like it. It seems that Horus was the only one who could do that well.

What would be the best way to go about a Rogue Trader's personal compliment, Solar Auxila or Cults and Militia? I remember hearing once upon a time about Rogue Trader Militants, but I don't expect to really see that.

Because they need to keep their marines alive while getting shit done, given that the Firstborn is the one legion holding their father's empire together while the rest tally, drill, build walls up, knock walls down, cardio, theorise, and waste the days howling cause the moon's gone again (SQUAD BROKEN) and the nights having romantic get-togethers by the lake.

Does it matter what order I read Betrayer and Butcher's Nails? Or any of the other WE audios for that matter

Butcher's Nails is set before Betrayer, so listen/read it first

SA are generally a more elite force, and unless you go for the '300 screaming chaos cultists' method they're much, much better. Also they've got the whole void divers theme going on, and i think one of the warlord traits is a mention of Rogue-traderism. Militia are designed to field the weirder stuff, from xenos to mutants and everything in between. I would say SA

Question about Ironwing:
Do I need an additional tank per unit or does a DT (Rhino) per unit suffice?

So lets say I have an infantry HQ and two Marine squads. Would it suffice to give the Marines a Rhino each and add an Artillery Tank to even out the HQ unit or would I need at least three tank units plus Rhino-DTs in case the tank units cannot carry enough passengers? That would sincerely suck.

A Dedicated Transport Tank and a squad cancel each other out.
Dreadnought talons count as a single unit in regard to the limitations, keep in mind.