Warmachine and Hordes Thread

No, that's PP.

Mk3 would've been mediocre and disappointing but it would've limped along. The real issue is how PP has handled public relations.

Horribly written insiders that left more uncomfortable question than answers
gang/flank was a blatant lie
Talked about how it's been in play test for multiple years yet admits to being rushed
Baffling decisions where previous rulling with identical text is ruled differently now. (targetting flare works with broadsides and assault now, when in mkii it didn't)

If PP just kept their mouth shut about mkiii or at least didn't hype that shit up so damn much and so poorly, the enthusiasm for the game would not be so damn low.

>God (S tier)
Cygnar, Khador

>Good (A tier)
Retribution, Circle

>Mid-High (B tier)
Mercs, Minions, Convergence

>Mid (C tier)
Menoth, Trolls, Legion

>Mid-Low (D tier)
Cryx

>Low (E tier)
Skorne

>using S-E Ranking
JRPGs should have stopped with that dumb shit years ago. Don't follow their trend. But to correct your ranking:

Top Tier
Khador, Retribution

High Tier
Cygnar, Circle, Mercs, Protectorate

Mid Tier
Minions, Legion, Trolls

Low Tier
Cryx

Shit Tier
Skorne

So, if we allow ourselves to admit that the base rules are useable/ok (they're "meh" in my opinion, but hey)
What would you change in each faction to make it actually playable, neither OP nor useless?

I don't think Veeky Forums posts are allowed to be long enough for that, so I'll be brief:

>in General
Remove tough-ignoring from Sniper models; reduce all ranges >12" by 1-2"; remove the stupid fucking lance rule (and remove secondary cav wepons); give all battle engines some sort of token mechanism for boosting or a relevant support ability; move a few abilities/spells per faction back to "Friendly" from "Friendly Faction"; remove the farstrike animus and slightly increase the relevant ranges

>Cygnar
Restrict eCaines shot types to initials; completely rework Sloan + Haley1; give B13 some actual abilites (maybe toned down versions of what they had in Mk2)

>Khador
Remove Brutal Damage from the Rockets, give +2POW; completely rework Joe; reduce Behemoth AoEs to 3", slightly reduce his cost; give Bombardiers and Demo Corps some buffs; reduce Vlad1's feat to +2SPD (instead of double)

>Protectorate
Slightly adjust some point costs

>Cryx
Nerf Lich2 (just kidding); give the faction some anti-shooting tech; completely rework Mortenebra and Lich2; completely rework spell slave/necromancy

>Ret
Take away Deadeye from Ossyan (what kind of total moron thought that was a good idea?); reduce Discordia's spray to 8", give Elara1 some nice field marshal; hand out MAT7 to more of their heavies; adjust some points costs (generally upwards)

>Convergence
Haven't seen them in Mk3, so can't comment.

>Mercs
Don't have a full picture of their stuff, so can only partially comment: Make primed less broken; adjust some points costs

>Circle
Hellmouth only drags on hitting enemy models; somehow make twigmen less bonkers; adjust some points costs; rework geomancy

>Trolls
Haven't seen enough of in Mk3 to comment.

>Skorne
Trash the entire ruleset and design from scratch.

>Legion
Slight nerfs to abby2 and Lylyth3, point cost adjustments all around (generally downwards)

>Minions
Release more models

That should cover the most severe issues.

MKIII rules were fine aside form the lacking control of the RAW at the end that created (and continue to create) the problems we all know.

What really has been a mess is Faction balance and I am not just talking only about Skone and Cryx, but of the internal balance too.

Things that were strong in MKII has been buffed when things that need to be buffed where nerfed.

Circle and Khador are just two of the best example out there, the internal faction balance simply don't exist.

The only army that they have done right is Ret. They are competitive and the internal balance of the faction is really good. There is a place for everything if you see that something is being spammed is just a meta thing, like Discordia (in a gun line meta) or Sentinels (lack of niper or a lot of continous effect).

>turn spell slave back to how it was in mk2

In all honesty though, Spell Slave was fine in Mk2. I can see the reasons for changing it, but those are stupid fucking retarded reasons.

>The only army that they have done right is Ret.
Ret is not fine. But it is within the range of "can be fixed with a few errata". There is nothing wrong with their overall design.

Don't forget to change assault so that you have to actually make the charge to make the shot. Because seriously all it does right now is extend gun range by 3".

yep, i'd agree on the whole.

let's just look at menoth (my main)
cleansers aren't very good, unless you take the ua - which is a gimmick at best. Why isn't the unit worth it alone?

zealots: will never see the table again, the repop ability is worse than what revenant crew had.

rhoven & co have become shield guard bots.
No but srsly, they buffed shooting, so they only thing they could come up with was "give everybody shield guard!"

paladins of the wall are still useless alone, but become shield guard bots IF vilmon (but rhoven & co are cheaper) Why didn't paladins lose their stances and just get greater destiny?

daughters lost 1 point of def but gained stealth? bad move, they didn't need stealth.

errants are only useful IF the solo is taken, again, why can't a unit be useful alone, without a solo/ua ?

The problem is that this is the case across multiple factions and is a result of bad design. unit is bad? add solo.

Oh i forgot to mention deliverers ! IF they had high explosive [8] they wouldn't be so bad, but atm they are so shit even zealots will get more table time.

Hmm, i dunno about ret.
kaelyssa was ans still is an 18" bubble of "you ded nigga"
ossyan got boosted through the roof. What happened to "shooting can't win games, melee is the deciding factor" ?

MHSF are still bullshit for the one turn that matters. Really "ignore LOS" shouldn't be in this game. Not if they want a melee centric game.

I would have made one change to ret;
all their WJs get phoenix shield, those that don't have it currently would auto repair 1d3 every turn, those that do have it already continue to auto repair 1d6.

That alone would have made a helluva difference.
Then of course the antimaterial rifle team really needed a good buff.

>Ret is not fine. But it is within the range of "can be fixed with a few errata". There is nothing wrong with their overall design.

Ret is fine. Just look to tournament results :

discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/

Best place Ret got in a lot of tournament is 3th. Legion had a lot more and higher placement all around.

A lot fo people complaint abour Ret is because they read the rules of the single model and think "That just OP." while they simply don't consider that usually other faction go over that level of OP in a "subtle way" thanks to a lot of sinergy of various model/unit that Ret lacks.

Ret still retain his "passive" spot. The army doesn't have caster/list that makes the meta, but they have alwasy to adapt to it.

The only hope is that if we do keep seeing the same lists, that PP will errata them to death.

funnily enough gunlines are so prominent right now the game is barely interesting.
Can you survive a khador WJ+gunline ? nope? well don't bother playing then.

But Legion on the other hand...
>they needed more buffs. For the good of the game ofc.

You see Ossy in reality is a big trap and every good Ret player know that.

Let me explain :

In MKII Ossy had 3 fatal flaw :

1 - He don't fixxed Ret accuracy (fixxed with Deadeye);

2 - He didn't see stealth. (Corbeu is not really an asnwer and if you bring Riflemen you lose A lot of firepower to threat opponent heavy);

3 - He want to be in the front line to feat and he is a 15/15. This got worse cause now FOC camping suck.

That bring to a situation where Ossy list are a lot predictable and countering him is really easy.

An example Khador with Iron Fleshed Kayazy make him mad.

List with a lot of Heavy make him really mad cause he just got 1 turn to eliminate them and have to push himself to FEAT and reach your heavy that usually are on the back line so you are something like 10" away form your opponent first line with a 15/15 caster.

Now I a, not telling that Ossy is a weak caster or anything like that, but that a good ret player know that Ossy as a caster is really unreliable so aside from some very focused build you will prefer to take something else.

If you made me choice between Issy and Ossy I will take Issyria every day of the week.

Killing heavies isn't difficult though. You're guaranteed the first strike because you're ranged, then each Invictus gets an average of 3.5 damage on a 19ARM heavy. Even if the heavy survives it'll be limping and won't be able to clear you out next turn.

>An example Khador with Iron Fleshed Kayazy make him mad.
Why ? why would def13 arm 14 infantry with stealth and immune to blast damage make him mad, when those riflemen & thane will just exterminate them, possibly in a single turn?

Nah, Assault is fine. It does what it's supposed to do. It's just a bit dumb on Invictors right now.

Yeah whoever thought their Mk3 shooting was a good idea either already got a lobotomy or really should.

Ossyan alone is meta-bending. It's just that Khador (another offender) bends the meta in a similar way so it's not that noticable (yet). And I also highly doubt that we've seen everything Ret can do. Which I am fine with. Their stuff is supposed to be expensive but good. It's just that a few outliers are too good.

Well hopefully not to death, but some nerfing should be done. Time will tell whether or not PP take this opportunity. I for one will wait till around Febuary. If the game is not fixed by then I'll just sell my shit and buy into Infinity. That just seems more fun right now.

Show me a non-tailored, non-Khador list that gives Ossy trouble.

>Show me a non-tailored, non-Khador list that gives Ossy trouble.

Irusk 2
Behemoth
Rager
Sylys Wyshnalyrr
Winter Guard Infantry (max)
Winter Guard Infantry UA
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Kayazy Assassins (max)
Kayazy Assassin Underboss
Kayazy Eliminators
Kayazy Eliminators
Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Jozef Grigorovich
Widowmaker Marksman

>I for one will wait till around Febuary. If the game is not fixed by then I'll just sell my shit and buy into Infinity. That just seems more fun right now.
I think I'm in a similar boat.
But beware Infinity, mang that shit is so fucking random.
Guildball looks good, as does Batman.
I wonder how relic knights is?

Dude. Just. Dude.

(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]

Find a weakness in this list OH WAIT YOU CAN'T.

>15/22 Cetrati with Sacred Ward, Steady, Tough, and PS13+3d6 attacks, going up to PS13+5d6 on feat turn

Heh, nice try at cracking my infantry... kid...

Oh wait I meant 15/24 Cetrati
>Heh

>15/22 Cetrati with Sacred Ward, Steady, Tough, and PS13+3d6 attacks, going up to PS13+5d6 on feat turn

Would be a shame if someone would TK your cetrati 2" away from krea showing their back arc.

In general you fear control element and everything that slow you down.

>Would be a shame if someone would TK your cetrati 2" away from krea showing their back arc.
They have spell ward.

Your list has 10 models that can actually do work. That's a bit slim. Your entire defense relies on stacking buffs on a single unit or beast, meaning that everything else is trivially removed.

You can't really slow Xerxis Cetrati down though since he can grant either pathfinder or +2"SPD when full advancing. And has Tactical Supremacy for Reposition 3.

I can't prevent my titans from being removed trivally anyway

>They have spell ward.
They have Sacred Ward now instead. It's a Mk3 buff that Vorkesh got.

>They have spell ward.

I know I was just joking he have Orin in too.

There are a lot of control element that can work the same. Temporal Barrier is one that comes to mind, that and FEATS.

Your list depend to much on the "blob" that just your main weakness, but your strong point too.

Correct. Have you played this list into a few hard gunlines (Kara/Haley1, Khador, Ossyan)?

Yeah, whatever it's called.

I'd ditch the Krea. If you're going to skew armor you don't really need to stack def as well, that and your beasts aren't really maximizing the agonizer and you have no shield guards. Throw, push, and slam effects like critical devastation will still ruin the one cetrati bricks day.

You can include reivers instead of the cannoneer and Tiberion insread of the bronzeback. That would probably be a hardier list than one with a bunch of arm 19 beasts, an out of place force barrier, and no shield guards for Xerxes.

Also I'd like to see how it handles split scenario. If you're gonna cast rift you're probably blowing your whole stack, too.

(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Tiberion [22]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Void Spirit [4]

So what you're saying is do this, right?

To add to this, I prefer a Cannoneer over Reivers since it's only really ranged units that I'm worried about since melee guys won't crack 24ARM Cetrati, and the Cannoneer can 1) guarantee to whittle their numbers down with little risk, and 2) mix it up in melee. I'd consider swapping the Bronzeback for a Gladiator though. Infact I will, a Gladiator at 14 is so much better than a Bronzeback at 18.

I don't see why slams, pushes, and throws would ruin Cetrati though. You have them stand in 2 triangles so that no one Cetrati moving will break Shield Guard for the rest of them. And they get Steady from Vorkesh so the knockdown isn't a worry.

>Veeky Forums's perfect Xerxis1 list
(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Tiberion [22]
- Agonizer [7]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]

That is the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted in one of these threads. And that's saying something.

stormpuppy_infantry is that you ?

Sorry, I forgot:

>Cygnar/Mercs
Give Precursors Sacred Ward and 1" melee range. Rework Constance.

For Cygnar:
>Tempest blazers
-lose electroleap (too many electric things in cygnar and gun mages aren't electrically themed)
-remove "brutal damage" and replace with "critical brutal damage" (there's no reason why gun mages on horses should get brutal damage automatically whilst foot gun mages don't - brutal damage is really powerful, so should be limited to solos and the b13th to make them seem special)
-Keep ward breaker.

>stormwall
-def 9 (khador def7, menoth def 8, cryx def 10, so by all logic cygnar is def 9; stop with the favoritism already we know you like haley!)
-lightning pods are limited to 3 per game, and is a special action to place.

What is your gripe with blazers? They're not even in the top3 of cygnar units, maybe even top5. And they barely hit according to their paygrade. They are also DEF14 now and die to everything that hits them. Their ONLY strong side is Reposition 5 and SPD9.

So in short, if you really think POW10+3D6 on a 4 point model is too much you are a moron.

>lightning pods are limited to 3 per game
They already are.
>and is a special action to place
HAHAHAHAHAHA. NO. And also fuck you.

aww diddums, did it hurt your widdle feelings?

>lol u mad
That is the best you've got?

I think Blazers would be fine if they just lost Electroleap. Changing Brutal to Crit Brutal would probably also be called for but they should be cheaper then.

>I think Blazers would be fine if they just lost Electroleap.
I can see that. I'd hope they gained something in return though. Some sort of utility shot.
>Changing Brutal to Crit Brutal would probably also be called for but they should be cheaper then.
Not really. Crit Brutal is in the realm of "why even bother". That is so much of a downgrade that you couldn't properly price them anymore (10 points, maybe??).

Why all the "nerf blazers" nonsense? They're not even especially competitive anymore. 18 points for five shots on a fragile platform is not breaking the game, even if those shots do work. They were already arguably worse than stormlances in Mk2, and blazers got nerfed while lances got better. If you think blazers are problematic, you're going to dislike the new Stormlances something fierce.

>Still complaining about blazers and stormwall.

Cygnar has newer toys to worry about. Centurions under Nemo 3 and Storm lances damn near anywhere are pretty great.

Don't sit there and call something overpowered because a faction has a strong, useful add. Aren't blazers without brutal or electro leap just bros with pistols on horses? Not a very interesting or compelling choice.

I sat there and had to listen to a PoM player complain that wold wardens are too overpowered because his opponent leveraged them well and he had no idea what they did in the first place. Circle has been known for a lot of things, I don't think it was ever wold wardens.

ITT we bitch that things are good and things changed with an edition change. Come on guys

Uhuh cool. Gonna save that stuff in case ill need to make another thread.
I did not play in MK2 a single time and from changes i see MK3 is better simply because the game will see more jacks and less infantry.
I like it.
On the other case, the less used models are used even less. Anybody ever seen Kossite Woodsmen? I head there were some promises of them going pretty good. And thats just one from the big list.
As a starting player that issue bothers me alot.
How do i know lol? Much people around starting it actually. Models quality is meh mostly thought and require a good old rework/revamp/remodel or whatever you call it. Then i could have played with my brother aswell, but he is buying Malifaux and Infinity because modelling is what interests him mostly.
Pity, actually, since he is not a dumbass and i would like to play against or with him.
And traditional question i am asking once in a month because i cant fucking decide (prepare your rotten tomatoes, folks).
Trolls - how do they feel themselves nowadays?
I didnt even see their leaked deck even thought other stuff is avaible.
Id like to run them mostly with beasts. MAYBE a squad or two of support units or powerful elite unit like Warders or Champions.
Is it possible with the Current state?
Because on the other side i can simply change to Circle and use almost whatever i fucking want and that will be effective. Squishy, maybe. But effective.

I think I'd swap the bronzeback for a sentry. Under Xerxis 1, Rasheth, or Naaresh's feat, a sentry with retaliatory strike animus up in a zone becomes a pretty serious problem for lists that dont have a way to trivially control the sentry/remove Orin.

Slams, pushes, placements etc are still an issue to the picket fence maneuver heavy infantry brick with dedicated lists. That's a good technique to mitigate it, but things like shadow fire can still be utilized to dismantle your formation if that's their game plan. You'd have to identify that at list drop, I think. Again lists that can fish for critical devastation can give you the business, as it throws all models hit. I'm not saying it will commonly shit on you, but if ashlynn, conquests with Vlads, or Cygnar is common where you play its something to consider.

Newish retribution player here, can someone explain to me why Kaylessa is considered so good?

It isn't that blazers are too stonk or not, it's just that, like the stormwall, they are way ahead of their counterparts.

>s i see MK3 is better simply because the game will see more jacks and less infantry.
That is shortsighted my friend.
However you have noticed that models that needed buffs didn't get them, and some other models that didn't need buffs got extra buffs anyway.

18" bubble of "fuck you ded nigga"
She's spd 6 range12" ignores LoS, has RoF 3 and steals focus or fury to make target weaker and be able to boost to hit and damage.

>Hellmouth
WTF were they smoking? They nerfed cryx into the ground for too easy recursion tricks, then what do they do, BAM.
Legion gets an auto repopping monster with impervious flesh.
That's 3 years of fucking playtesting ?

Don't tell me it's beatable, fucking gaspy2 was beatable, morv2 was beatable, heck even haley2 was beatable, but it doesn't mean it was alright !!

But don't worry you haven't seen the full rules yet !

Best thing about her now is she has Refuge, so she can do that every turn and not get assassinated.

But her gun is only pow 10

I think PP nerfed a lot of things so that they can release new model that do what the old model were doing.

In this way they can sell new things.

I like PP, but I really thing that this is the way things will be in a few years of release.

Worst thing is that it has the same name as a spell. After they fixed all of those ambiguities they introduced a new one. This triggers my autism.

Just for an added bonus the rules for the Hellmouth state the tentacles can move a hit model "to the hellmouth".

There is nothing called a "hellmouth" in the unit.

>TFW I recently dug my unpainted Menoth army out of storage.
>TFW I got really stoked for MK3 rules because it gave me a reason to get back into the game
>TFW everyone at my shop went back to 40k because their favorite models got nerfed. Or because premeasuring
>TFW can't even get my fix here because the general is always MIA
>TFW people saying dead edition
>TFW just wanna burn heretics

They recently ruled it only drags to the officer of the tentacles unit.

If people just weren't being faggots we wouldn't have this issue, because why would a unit act like no other unit in the game.

I do not really question that.
Power Up was needed a long time ago. But overall nerf of other stuff wasnt.

She isn't. Its a meme. Retribution basically goes:

Garryth < Ravyn < Thyron < Kaelyssa/Vyros1 < Vyros2 < Issyria/Elara < Rahn/Helynna < Ossyan

>I am a game designer
Proof_chicken.jpg

Infinity is the best of the games you listed.
Relic knights is trash.

>I wonder how relic knights is?
My understanding that there is little chance involved so the better skilled player/ better built list always wins

I feel like at the end of the day only Cryx lost it's recursion. Alexia, hellmouth thing, bog trog shamblers still have access to their tricks. Its just not very consistent

Also why the fuck does lich2 get jettisoned into the atmosphere, never to return, when haley2 gets a pat on the bottom and kruegar2 gets a powerful side grade? I feel like this wasn't tested for 3 years.

Is harbinger still somewhat competitive or is she casual game only tier now?

Makes sense, 40k is the land of fair and balanced models, sensible releases, and a ruleset that is rock solid without any room for misinterpretation.

Infiniti is the most shittty game in the line up - no balance at all and stupid rock paper scisors list in tournaments - basicly if you dont specialise you lost if you do and go aginst your counter - you lost

Can't tell if actual GW fanboy or dripping with sarcasm.
40k is about the Poe's Lawsiest fandom...

So, as someone who's used to wargaming but has never played Warmahordes before, is it alright to get into this game? I'm seeing a lot of shit going on with the MkIII change, which has me a little cautious (fucking figures).

I started with mark III about a month ago and I love it so far. If there's a local scene I'd recommend going on whatever night is warmachine night to ovbserve and talk to the local press ganger if there is one.

Interesting story here in the store in regards to that: MK3 comes out and rekindles interest in the game, so quite a few people (including me) that have mostly quit bring their armies to test things out. Overall the new edition is quite well recieved and there's actually quite some excitement and plans to start new armies/bolster old ones. And then we discovered that the three guys that had kept playing Warmahordes during the exodus mentioned above were still around and kept smugly telling everyone how "they always knew people would come back quickly", regardless whether they were asked or not. In fact, they invariably showed up for any game to comment harshly and offer unsolicited advice while people were playing, to the point were it became unbearable.
Enthusiasm quickly died and now there are three people at the FLGS playing the game. Again.
I am still playing around with the idea of getting some model to make a force of nothing but Manowars and 'jacks centered around Kozlov.
It's a shame, MK3 seemed like good fun even for a more casual crowd.

>why would a unit act like no other unit in the game.
Because it doesn't act like anything in the game. Name me another units where grunts move things toward a leader.

You're right, it's obviously special

It's a lot better for the casual crowd. The rules are easier and don't rely so much on "Gotcha" rules like getting terrain bonuses from toeing the line and partial pre-measuring, now allowing full pre-measuring and requiring being completely inside effects for them to take effect. It's nice and means that there's less confusion over what you need to get your bonuses.

The only real penalty is the endless bitching from people who liked that, but they're faggots anyways.

Boosted 10s will fuck up a lot of no-camp casters, and she removes a focus/fury every time she hits and adds it to her own stack.

It's just internet buttmad, the game is better than it was in MK2 and there are actual mechanisms in place to fix problems going forward.

Can you get a copy of Prime in pdf format? The full version with all the unit stats and lore.

Good to see someone finally started another. I made the last one but after it barely lasted a day and a half I didn't bother again. These threads might last longer if not for what this guy said. I for one am sick of the endless whining.

Same. I love fielding my jacks and not feeling like I shot myself in the foot by doing so.

Not unless someone has scanned theirs and uploaded them. The free PDFs are just rules.

T. Non cryx/skorne player

>Implipidydippidyplying

I play Cryx, I'm just not a whiny man-baby like you who can't look past that fact that his toys got nerfed.

I need help.

Bought some minis from a guy a while ago and was stripping them. Soaked for a few days in LA Totally Awesome. Scrubbed. Soaked for a few more days. Scrubbed. Soaked for about a month. Scrubbed. And there's still fucking paint in the fucking crevices of every god damned model.

I don't know if it's the primer he used or the cleaner I'm using, but I'm getting really frustrated.

Is there any way to actually get this clean?

Honestly, that's good enough. A little paint in a few places isn't going to hurt anything.

Two ways:

>use a toothbrush when you scrub it
or
>use an ultrasonic cleaner

The best stripping method I've used was an ultrasonic cleaner and simple green.

If your trying to clean Metal minis, a pick set from Home Depot is good, but for Plastic/Resin...the ultrasonic work well as suggested above.

If you are new the backdraft won't cause you any worries.

Us oldbloods have a lot to complain because the changes we are experiencing are very arbitrary

I started WMH last year after end times killed the old world, I'm like the only person in my group that's ever experienced an edition shift (3 in the last 2 years!).

I thought it was rough, being a cryx player- apparently it blew the pants and undies off of everyone else. One guy in my group is adamant that the Reckoner is still the only use-able heavy in memeoth (hes wrong)

I've been through at least 3 40k edition shifts and 2 fantasy shifts.
I've also managed to make it through Malifaux 2nd ed and warmachine mki- mkii - mkiii changes.

Mkiii is a really clunky ass change even for a guy that survived the 6th ed 40k and 8th ed fantasy.

Mki to Mkii change was more for the better and if things got worse at least there was some twisted logic to it.
Mkii to mkiii feels REALLY arbitrary at times and if you have any memory for mkii and it feels like PP is basically unlearning stuff.

For example,
In mki, Vlad 2 was insanely powerful and broke the game. This made PP vow not to allow for turn 1 attacks from deployment line. This was basically rectified for mkii.
First exploit we've seen in mkiii was Sloan turn 1 shots to the deployment line.

Second example,
In mkii, broadsides would not allow for spriggan to lay down a targeting flare since the spell specified normal attacks. Now, in mkiii somehow we can now put targeting flares instead of the normal shot. Nothing on the text of the abilities have changed between editions. They just randomly ruled this way now for some reason.

I'm too fucking old for this now it feels like.

If you want to brag about how well you're taking this user, you're welcome to...

>so what's your pairing?

>tfw you play Skorne and pp has pretty much said they have no idea what the fuck they are doing with you in an AMA
Unlearning is too lax a term sometimes