I have stumbled across the fact the the Imperium has a slow but steady decline in technology.
The question is Why?
I mean the humans are at least from the basic biological build up the same as we are.
Souldn't they strive and invent and build new things?
It would certainly benefit the Imperium and the Emperor.
Admech does. It just goes though an assload of testing, checking, and red tape because the threat of it doing bad shit like opening a rift to the warp is real.
No, it doesn't.
The Admech codex states "
>Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.
-The 7th ED Cult Mech dex
Humanity lost the ability to truly innovate thousands upon thousands of years ago. This is mostly due to the doctrine of the Admech that suppresses innovation for no reason.
The whole inventing stuff inherently spawns daemons is a false wankery by the fans.
Yeah but why is technology or the ability to build tank xy lost?
They have every data stored on Mars, souldn't it be possible to rebuild or repair those destroyed factories?
Men of iron + Psyker incursions.
First came the big breaking point where humanity had to wage war against their Robot slaves and then later on a giant warpstorm came and fucked everything over. Top this with how psykers started poping out of the wood works and attracting daemons, you got a fucked up universe. Terra, our current planet, was so dependent on off world colonies for supplies, when the fuck heug warp storm broke all supply lines, it ended up dying up and becoming a desert wasteland with scavengers and bandits barely making it on scraps. The emperor was given his mortal coil around this time and he made his first marines, the thunderhawks. He then continued on a crusade to connect each imperial planet that was cut off from the planetary network. There are still many planets out there undiscovered with human life on it. There might even be a colony pass the galaxy that continued to thrive.
>Such a volatile weapon comes with a significant drawback however. The barely contained plasma makes the weapon prone to overheating in the most spectacular of ways. While emergency cooling ducts and exhaust vents periodically expel excess heat from the gun, continual firing almost inevitably overloads these functions. When the weapon reaches critical temperatures, it will release a cloud of super-heated vapour to prevent the gun from destroying itself. Unfortunately for the firer, this cloud is easily capable of burning away light armour and peeling flesh from bone.
>Space Marines are at least afforded a degree of protection against these catastrophic overheats because of their power armour, the ceramite plates and hard seals usually limiting the damage to their surroundings. Even so, an overheat can still kill or maim a battle-brother, especially if the exhaust vents clog or the coils crack from the intense heat. For lesser warriors, like Imperial Guardsmen, overheating plasma guns are almost always fatal, leaving frail bodies charred to blackened bone by great gouts of charged particles.
>In rare cases, plasma guns are even capable of detonating if they get too hot. This may occur as a result of excessive firing, but can also be the result of a flaw during manufacture. Should the casing crack or the magnetic containment fail, the firer will have only a fraction of a second before the gun turns into a ball of blazing energy in his hands, consuming itself with the heat of a star and vaporising everything with reach.
>In addition to the dangers of an overheat, plasma guns are difficult to reload. Only with the requisite prayers should the hydrogen flasks be screwed into place, their unstable ammunition all too prone to spilling or fouling the plasma intakes. An incorrectly attached flask can cause the weapon to explode the first time it is fired, as an empty or partially filled magnetic chamber creates inescapable pressure that will tear the gun apart, in addition to its user.
>Removing a flask is also dangerous, as even a small amount of plasma leaking out of a broken seal or an incorrectly closed value can burn away a hand or cost the shooter several of his fingers. For these reasons, plasma guns are slow and difficult to load or unload on the battlefield, a task often best left to the sacred ministrations of a Techmarine or Tech-Priest and long hours of repetitious binary prayer. In combat, a Space Marine can rely on a plasma gun for a dozen or so consecutive shots before the flask starts to run dry, and he runs the risk of triggering a catastrophic overheat.
>Despite its drawbacks the plasma gun has remained part of the Imperium’s arsenal for thousands of years. It is an honour to carry the gun into battle, and be trusted to make sure every searing shot counts. Based on the secrets of the sacred STC, it is a design that has never been developed or improved on. Indeed, the very thought of trying to mitigate the flaws of the plasma gun would be repellent to the followers of the Machine God. By the grace of the Omnissiah, the weapon fulfils a role within the God-Emperor’s armies, and to change this role in any way would be to invite mayhem and disorder. So the plasma gun is crafted just as it has been for untold centuries, each one finding its way into the hands of a resolute Space Marine or an ungrateful Guardsman.
-Munitorum : Plasma Guns
It always returns to the Admech being religious douches.
>false wankery
Or a logical conclusion.
Also iirc there is talk about the higher ups on Mars having a lot of sweet shit that they just sit on because they are assholes who want to have something in their back pocket in case someone tries to take away their power and status.
>invite mayhem and disorder
Such as daemons
>Or a logical conclusion.
As presented in the Admech fluff? Nope.
Xenos races are advancing their technologies at paces higher than mankind. The Orks at time of the Beast surpassed mankind in technological prowess. And yet, nothing happens.
The Admech and human technology are the way they are because religious control freaks took control over mankind's ability to innovate and suppressed it by force.
Please don't use the beast with it's ork ambassadors.
Orks have their technological prowess built into their genetic code.
More likely the Admech loss of power would lead to mayhem and disorder for their bottom lines and positions of power.
If they mass produced plasma guns that are less expoldey and don't need 30 min reload time, then who would need the Admech anymore?
>It always returns to the Admech being religious douches.
Heresy-era Mechanicum wasn't as strict. The result was that much of Mars is literally infested with sentient, daemonic malware. The reason they're careful with technology is because they have learned that being careless with technology leads to it being possessed by evil warp entities.
That they gradually unlocked as their Waaagh! grow larger. They jumped from primitive shootas to doomsady weapons in a few years and nothing happened to them.
Humanity had some awesome tech back in the DAoT (humanity had pretty awesome tech back in the day). The Admech doesn't think it's possible to get better than the tech they had 20000 years ago (they almost rivalled necron tech) so innovation is heresy and anything new is from a discovered STC fragment from the DAoT
Orks are geneticaly built to fight. Their very existance will match to an equal threat to their oposing force. Thats why an ork was able to choke the emperor.
The reason the Mars war happened was because some members of the Mechanicum resented being tied to Terra. They also resented the Emperor forbidding them investigating certain parts of Mars.
Horus took advantage of that and gave the Admech a gift in the form of warp touched technology that spread the daemonic signal.
What do we learn from this? The Emperor was a douche for hiding certain truths from people who should know them AND you shouldn't accept anything from Chaos fanatics.
Also Mars doesn't like to hand out instructions on how to make tech. What if that forge world that can produce anything fell to chaos? Then the Imperium would have a massive headache to deal with, if they could even deal with it at all. After all, one of the big disadvantages to chaos is their relative lack of manufacturing equipment compared to the imperium, having a chaos controlled copy of Mars would be a disaster
This
I bet they have fully functional STC on Mars, but they either don't want to find or just can't.
Also during great crusade a shitload of ancient relics was destroyed
There is also the Ark Mechanicus which is an STC but they just don't know it.
Aren't the xenos races that are advancing tech have some kind of Warp immunity?
Also as a side note the justification of the fear is irrelevant to the fear itself. This is the Imperium.
The what?
I get it. But factory world Bumpy with the factory to produce Landspeederlighters is lost. Why not give the ability to produce them to another world?
Shouldn't the council of Terra interfer? They surely have a interest that the overall fighting ability of the Imperium remains constant
>you shouldn't accept anything from Chaos fanatics
And curious people who have had truths hidden from them are the perfect candidates for wondering what's so bad about this Chaos stuff anyway?
Sure they do, they have dozens, its just that they're literally possessed by necron tech and/or daemons. During the Heresy literal daemons also jumped into the martian labyrinths to merge with the remnant men of iron and other techno-horrors, and also theres an intact C'tan in there too
I can see either or both being a legit reason
>Shouldn't the council of Terra interfer?
They can't. Admech is almost a separate state within imperium. If they won't like something, imperium is fucked
Also
>Terra
>competent
Mars, and the Admech in general, is a combination of some of the worst parts of priesthood, academia and the sorts of militaries where people hoard information and power - information isn't free, it's a valuable resource in the admech.
They don't share designs or information unless they have to, which is one of the things that makes the ability to make things get lost.
Another is the loss of the expert personnel and the data in their heads, and the loss of facilities - you can't build a forge world overnight
>This argument again
It literally holds no meaning to not call it "true innovation." The AdMech STILL has examples written before, during and after that statement in which the AdMech have invented new things, improved other designs and analyzed Xenotech all under sanctioned conditions.
The same codex that talks about them innovating and improving crap? But hey, Tau pilots are better than Eldar and Necron ones, so who am I to go against one snippet of fluff in one book.
>for no reason
You mean other than making everyone dependent on Admech for support, making sure the teachings of Admech are the norm and nobody can go against their doctrines, etc.?
Dreadclaws went insane, you got not only a planet that purged all disease but the naturally immune stormie regiment that have gotten Nurgle's attention, etc. It's not inherently, it's a reaction to what's going on. And after 10,000 years of seeing people doing stuff and then bad things happening should be more than enough of a Pavlovian dog effect on people to just stop doing it.
>Why not give the ability to produce them to another world?
Because the ability to produce them is jealously hoarded by the tech adepts of the world Bumpy, and they see no reason to share the info with others.
>10 shots per flask
>takes hours to reload by a specialist
Must suck to be a techpriest in a plasma heavy regiment, especially when in combat.
Next post the bit about crystallized heretics used to power volcano cannons.
This reminds me of "Why arabs lose wars"
>meforum.org
>In every society information is a means of making a living or wielding power, but Arabs husband information and hold it especially tightly. U.S. trainers have often been surprised over the years by the fact that information provided to key personnel does not get much further than them. Having learned to perform some complicated procedure, an Arab technician knows that he is invaluable so long as he is the only one in a unit to have that knowledge; once he dispenses it to others he no longer is the only font of knowledge and his power dissipates. This explains the commonplace hoarding of manuals, books, training pamphlets, and other training or logistics literature. On one occasion, an American mobile training team working with armor in Egypt at long last received the operators' manuals that had laboriously been translated into Arabic. The American trainers took the newly-minted manuals straight to the tank park and distributed them to the tank crews. Right behind them, the company commander, a graduate of the armor school at Fort Knox and specialized courses at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds ordnance school, collected the manuals from the crews. Questioned why he did this, the commander said that there was no point in giving them to the drivers because enlisted men could not read. In point of fact, he did not want enlisted men to have an independent source of knowledge. Being the only person who can explain the fire control instrumentation or boresight artillery weapons brings prestige and attention. In military terms this means that very little cross-training is accomplished and that, for instance in a tank crew, the gunners, loaders, and drivers might be proficient in their jobs but are not prepared to fill in for a casualty. Not understanding one another's jobs also inhibits a smoothly functioning crew. At a higher level it means there is no depth in technical proficiency.
Inertia, for one. Combine that with the fact that almost everywhere is at constant war, and most Admech priests are going to focus more on keeping everything supplied with what's currently working now, rather than try to invent something new. Half the vehicles and weapons the Imperium is currently using were intended to be stopgap designs or stuff to 'make do' until they could get things like Terminator armor or Land Raiders back into full production.
There's also religious dogma. Techpriests see the old machines as sacred, and are reluctant to change anything. They threw a hissy fit when Space Wolves put lascannons on their predator until they did a couple centuries of testing and found out it was okay.
But most importantly, the Admech are not logical. They are jealous of their knowledge, and aren't going to give it up to just anybody. Most Forge Worlds don't have the means or the knowledge necessary to make certain things, and half the time, techpriests keep their knowledge inside their own metallic heads, so when someone who knew half the parts to a Malcador that wasn't shit dies, suddenly no one can make a non-shitty Malcador.
>The same codex that talks about them innovating and improving crap?
Accorrding to dex, not true innovation. I come the fuck on. The same guy and editor who worked on the codex also wrote those bits which means he or she does not consider it true innovation because the Admech lost the ability for it long ago.
> Tau pilots are better than Eldar and Necron ones, so who am I to go against one snippet of fluff in one book.
Come on. I pointed to you that Tau Aces were confirmed to be better pilots in the recent Stormcloud Attack releases. You think they will write that done for no reason?
I am gomna copypaste some stuff about it in a minute so this example will fall on its face forever.
>Dreadclaws went insane, you got not only a planet that purged all disease but the naturally immune stormie regiment that have gotten Nurgle's attention, etc. It's not inherently, it's a reaction to what's going on. And after 10,000 years of seeing people doing stuff and then bad things happening should be more than enough of a Pavlovian dog effect on people to just stop doing it.
You do realize if we take in account that will of the Chaos Gods, then all of reality would be a wash with despair and mayhem. The Chaos gods will find a reason to attack no matter what you do.
In the same book where the event comes from, Khorne genocided the armies of two Imperial worlds because they stopped their hundred year old civil war to celebrate peace.
In he Crusade of Fire, Nurfle wanted to extinquish all life in the system because it was full of healthy and prosperous life.
So what's the solution? To avoid Chaos we must be backward fools in living in wastelands of filth bashing each other over the head to avoid the wrath of the Chaos Gods
No, here is the solution. Fuck the Chaos Gods. We will do what we want and when they come we will fight them off or die in the attempt.
> the thunderhawks.
I think you meant thunder warriors there.
>Fuck the Chaos Gods. We will do what we want and when they come we will fight them off or die in the attempt.
Praise the emprah
>Accorrding to dex, not true innovation. I come the fuck on. The same guy and editor who worked on the codex also wrote those bits which means he or she does not consider it true innovation because the Admech lost the ability for it long ago.
You are aware that most writers don't communicate that well and it's extremely clear that each have their own headcanon that leaks into their fluff, right? Regardless of what the Codex says, it's literally one paragraph that's contradicted by huge swathes of AdMech lore from in and outside the Codex.
In a universe as inconsistent as 40k, it is literally impossible for everything to be true. Considering the large amount of seeming innovation that the AdMech have been doing recently, it's probably best to consider that particular paragraph a general statement of the situation rather than a hard rule (the "big galaxy," argument honestly applied pretty well to the Mechanicus.)
>Kassen and Noble Flame
>The Noble Flame is an exceptional combat craft, blessed with one of the most advanced AI suites in the Tau Empire. Always inclined to trust his own instincts rather than the programming of his AI, however, Kassen has somewhat of a strained relationship with the craft's artificial sentience. Even though he regularly overrides the targeting protocols or frostily ignoring its strategic advice, Noble Flame's AI still works tirelessly to keep its master alive, something that paid dividends during the terrifying war on Blackfathom. When they do work in harmony, Karrsen and Noble Flame are an unstoppable pairing that the Scythes of Hamanekh have been unable to defeat in aerial combat. Of course, Kassen hasn't face all three at once.
Kassen, Ace pilot of the Tau Empire, was more than a match for a trio of War of Heaven ace Necron pilots. They went against him one by one at first. He marched them their inhuman skill and their machine endurance to shot them down.
The Necron solution is send them all at once at him in order to level the field.
Furthermore, in the final air battle of the book, the Tau pilots who were outnumbered by the Necrons pilots managed to deal incredible damage to the swarms of Necrons craft. They initially held them off but Necron numbers and their phase out and return shenanigans ultimately caused them to retreat and rethink their strategy.
>The Chaos gods will find a reason to attack no matter what you do.
And Admech knows this how? You're using outside information on people on the inside. Admech doesn't know why this is happening, they're just looking at people doing something that's not the norm and bad stuff happening, and concluding it's because of not going by the norm.
Doesn't Russians have the same issue? So long its not a rank issue?
>Accorrding to dex, not true innovation.
Of course. But have a Tau shave off a few kilowatts of energy expenditure from a plasma rifle and they'll get praised as true technological innovators.
Doing the devil's work, carnac, as usual.
>You are aware that most writers don't communicate that well and it's extremely clear that each have their own headcanon that leaks into their fluff, right?
GW's dev studio hasn't expanded since forever. It's just Kelly, Vetrock, and Crud. And they work in the same building surely. It's not the work of a team spread out all over the place. It's just a few guys.
>Regardless of what the Codex says, it's literally one paragraph that's contradicted by huge swathes of AdMech lore from in and outside the Codex.
And you know what? The guy who wrote that piece was aware of that fluff and was aware of the fluff he wrote down in his very codex. Guess what he thought about it? Not true Innovation
IN THE VERY SAME CODEX IT SAYS THAT THEY INNOVATE SHIT ALL THE TIME
Goddamn sheeple here
Except it's not just in the AdMech Codex, is what I'm saying. It's one paragraph in one source vs. a huge amount of previous fluff, some newer fluff and some fluff within the Codex (with the fluff in the Codex, I concede, being considered not true innovation.)
Still absolutely no logic in following the paragraph over the many in the setting that we know is inherently consistent.
>Guess what he thought about it? Not true Innovation.
This changes things how? Are we to consider every piece of fluff word of God because of what a writer thinks about it?
So, for example. Ultramarines are objectively the best Astartes faction, right? Amongst the faction who are objectively the best fighters in the galaxy, right?
Fuck I see this shit in US business all the time.
The Admech know nothing. What I am saying is that their views on technology is formed with irrational stupidity and greed.
The fact Chaos attacks things seemingly at ramdom, isn't what shaped the views of the Admech. It goes back to Old Night before Chaos revealed itself.
Then why do you think the writer write that line and despite knowing ALL of this and likely more? He wanted you guys to remember that the admech practices serve no purpose and their knowledge is built on lies. Also they don't truly innovate.
So it's the developer vs you guys, and when it comes to this I have to side with the developer.
>Then why do you think the writer write that line and despite knowing ALL of this and likely more?
Because there has never been internal consistency in the presentation of the 40k universe you utter faggot and they throw all that shit around so you can build your headcanon however you want
>So it's the developer vs you guys, and when it comes to this I have to side with the developer.
Sure, except that the developer also wrote that they innovate shit so go fuck yourself
>hurr durr when he agrees with me it counts but when he doesn't it doesn't count at all so he's on my side
Grow the fuck up and learn to see beyond your own tiny little horizon you daft child
>The question is Why?
Because it's grimdark space-fantasy. It's more about "that which was lost" than "that which is to come", the ancient equals powerful of typical fantasy rather than the ancient equals outdated of typical science-fiction.
Alternatively, it may be the developer making a mistake or simply implying something he didn't intend to.
Considering the large amount of fluff on the Mechanicus fulfilling the definition of innovation, I highly doubt this is a paragraph we can take literally. Much like the concept that AI is explicitly not used in the Imperium, except in Titans (not like the AdMech know.)
The setting takes higher priority than any individual writer, that's the whole point. Not only that but the writer's use of the terms can quite easily be interpreted as either A: a general statement (which often don't hold up to every scenario) and B: a vague statement (th'fuck does "true innovation," even mean?)
>So, for example. Ultramarines are objectively the best Astartes faction, right? Amongst the faction who are objectively the best fighters in the galaxy, right?
Yes.
The Ultramarines are described as the best and noblest in every source since I can remember. However, if a piece of new fluff pops up that tells us otherwise, then what came before it is rendered meaningless.
With the Admevch line it's not as a simple. It casts a light on all the fluff concerning the things that the admech create. They might seem like innovation but according to the codex it cannot be because they lost the ability to do so. So unless a piece of fluff emerges in the future that says in certain terms that the Admech has the ability to (truly) innovate, then this is the way its going to be from now on.
Greed isn't irrational, and you are a moron. No one in this thread should take you seriously or reply to you. Not even me.
>Sure, except that the developer also wrote that they innovate shit so go fuck yourself
False innovation. The ability for true innovation has been long lost to them. Learn the difference.
>they throw all that shit around so you can build your headcanon however you want
That's you personal interpretation but I got to disagree.
Russias issue is corruption. This is very different from the class consciousness in arab armies.
Also Russias CAN be effective but they need a focus point. A strong leader (doesn't matter if Putin or on a smaller level lets say a good comapny commander) or the motherland can bring Russians to do big deeds.
It is when it's taken to extreme like in the case of the hoarding Admech.
>It casts a light on all the fluff concerning the things that the admech create.
You're presuming intention. Nowhere does it say that this is the explicit purpose of a general statement which, as discussed before, are often just that, the general analysis of events over a hard rule of the 40k universe.
40k writing, particularly more modern stuff is absolutely full of lines like this. "X can completely overwhelm any foe," "Y could never hope to suffer Z," and almost every time it's only been a broad statement that is subject to fall apart depending on the situation.
To simply and broadly state that no AdMech can ever perform innovation is not only subject to the opinions of a single Human who I can guarantee does not remember every single piece of fluff, but is also one that does not agree with the previous (nor post) fluff of the AdMech within the setting.
To take a vague and general statement from a single source, relying on your own presumptions of purpose and applying it to all other, including contradicting lore is not a line of logic I can agree with.
Same user here.
As a disclaimer, I can see where the "not true innovation," comes from and I'm not stubborn enough to automatically rule it off as objectively wrong. I can just see both being a possibility and have come to my own conclusion that the paragraph is only true for the vast majority of the Mechanicus body.
Would abusing your AI helper make it more likely to go rogue?
We have absolutely no idea what drove the Men of Iron to turn against Humanity. It may have been Chaos or Warp shenanigans, it may have been the AI deciding that the logical conclusion to destroy Humanity. AI doesn't just have chronic backstabbing disorder for its creators, even in 40k.
Either way, the Tau are a long way off from making AI powerful or interconnected enough to worry about it turning on them in bulk.
>it may have been the AI deciding that the logical conclusion to destroy Humanity. AI doesn't just have chronic backstabbing disorder for its creators, even in 40k.
Actually, that was it. The "Tableau Myriad" which was a powerful AI from the DAoT calculated through math that humanity will cause the doom of reality by bringing forth in the inhabitants of the Warp dimension. It concluded one possible solution to save the galaxy, all flesh must die. It began a campaign of genocide until it was stopped and deactivated.
It surfaced later in the HH. What was noted that it and the machine constructs it controlled were immune to the taint of Chaos and the daemon scrap code. It surrounded itself and its servants with mathematical and logical truths that cannot be denied which protected them from Chaos.
Sweet, never saw that part of the lore before but I always had the feeling it was anti-Warp over pro-Warp purposes.
(That part about the mathematical truths sounds pretty retarded, though, unless it was a metaphor. Nulltech exists, after all.)
We speak about 40k lore, which can be sometimes ...inconsistent
Example? The Mechanicus somehow forgot how to maintain the Golden Throne. This is in-spite of the fact that they have performed routine maintenance on it every single day for the past ten thousand years. This is ignoring the sheer impossibility of forgetting how to maintain the most important piece of technology to ever exist. Pretty sure the Techpriests would have been extremely (fanatically) careful to protect and preserve that knowledge.
Here are the sources if you want read more about it
blacklibrary.com
blacklibrary.com
The AI will play a large role still in the war for Mars.
And here have a excerpt from the short story
>In the presence of the Abominable Intelligence, bathed in cold logic and the truths undeniable, the false construct was cleansed of its corruption. Lennox watched the impossible on the runescreen. The daemonic presence was banished from Lenk 4-of-12. The infernal light died in his eyes. Like tumorous growths before the intensity of radiation, the menial’s corrupted flesh withered. Allowing the tracking device to drop to the floor, Lenk 4-of-12 lost consciousness and followed it, the limp data cables tugging loose from his interface ports as he fell.
The greatest weakness of Chaos....Math!
Ah, yeah, that's the article I was thinking of when I said Amazingly, it was even worse when the Adeptus Mechanicus was still the Mechanicum, during the Great Crusade
Huh, guess there was more than one Men of Iron AI - one of the IG novels has a means of producing them being found, but they're chaos'd to hell.
Given we know that there's multiple examples of things being invented, I think it'd be reasonable to suggest "true innovation" would be inventions both not based on existing technology, and not constrained by the Admech's rules - some things are holy, some things are proscribed, and absolutely not being allowed certain things does curtail innovation to a degree - it'd be fair to say that "innovation from a lot of existing shit and bound by rules" isn't "true"
>but they're chaos'd to hell.
The factory might have fallen to Chaos after it was deactivated.
Ah, right, so it doesn't literally say that math kills Chaos, but rather through the "power of logic," as it were the AI banished the Warp-corruption. I was worried for a second there.
I can imagine it.
First, we remember that the AdMech builds shit to last. So there's a bit of the golden throne that needs to be swapped out every thousand years or so. The blueprints age and are copied again and again before the thing is even needed, but after a thousand years, it's rebuilt and works just as well as the original part.
Then, another thousand years later, we need to build a new one. But it relies on a Theta-C module that's mostly made on Laer Forge World, which we lost a hundred years ago. There's others, but theirs aren't as good. Well, what choice do we have?
In another thousand years, the blueprints have decayed through imperfect copying enough that the Theta-C module now seem to say Theta-G. Nobody that built the last one is around, so we'll just follow the blueprint. This is obviously wrong, because they do completely different things, but a secondary thing in the Throne, that hadn't been active until now, takes up the slack. And is worn out in a thousand years.
You see the cycle? Degradation in knowledge due to imperfect copying, loss of knowledge and expertise due to war, made worse due to knowledge hoarding, cultural bias against experimentation and understanding (You think you can understand the workings of the great minds of Mars? Such hubris!), and you have a recipe for decay.
Okay you convinced me.
The endgame is that the Imperium is doomed for good.
Yeah, it was dormant or something.
Very monster-of-the-week-y, finding an STC/STC device then it immediately getting nope'd so it doesn't effect the setting, but I understand it was well written.
Oh, and in the Mechanicum civil war, most of the innovators were, rather naturally, on the chaos side, so there's lots of bad implications in the Admech's history when it comes to making new shit
Did they ever really, completely understand the golden throne? Like the other user said imperfect copying is a bitch, now imagine it on a device so complex only the Emperor comprehended it.
>Oh, and in the Mechanicum civil war, most of the innovators were, rather naturally, on the chaos side, so there's lots of bad implications in the Admech's history when it comes to making new shit
AS shown in the Mechanicum novel? It was the other way around. The Admech investor mistress was based.
No, in a more general sense - Horus won the Fabricator-General's loyalty with two things: the keys to the vault of illegal tech, and the promise that the restrictive Treaty of Olympus was ended, allowing the Mechanicum to build and research whatever they wanted
We need more sexy tech priests in this thread
Considering the Sabbat sector history and the fact that the IR "stock" were physically untouched while newly produce ones were deformed, that's probably what happened.
On the innovation thing, is the fluff really that contradicting?
You can have the AdMech be an organisation that prevent innovation AND have innovation happen inside it, this isn't contradictory for the setting. You may fail to apply a dogma, especially at that scale. Logically (yeah, I know), an organisation like the AdMech should both make innovation possible (by the transmission of knowledge, no matter how clouded) AND preventing it (by the application of dogma). In this case, it's the AdMech that has its contradictions, no the setting.
And considering what "innovations" we have, I think it make sense. Innovations in the Imperium is often:
- made by fringe individual, like techmarine who have a double allegiance.
- made by powerful individuals, who have more leeway when they aren't above the rules.
- superficial, like putting an already existing weapon on an already existing vehicle.
- made under strict necessity, like under the threats of an invasion.
- still really rare, considering 10 thousand years of time and a galaxy wide empire for size.
They may be exception, but that's most of it.
I think what annoy "not true innovation" user is that it seems some user are trying to justify admech dogma. And he's right, the whole point is that they are deeply flawed and mostly wrong. Sure, considering the universe they live in, it make sense they would came to be what they are, but that doesn't change the fact that they are wrong. Remember, the Imperium is supposed to be terrible.
Wrong the emperor has been around for millennia - around 10000 BC at least
He took the opportunity to take over terra though
The arc mechanicus is basically a ship with a complete, self updating, non corrupt STC. Now the problem is that the techpriest who discovered that lost his memories (just after destroying several xeno ship during a warp storm with said arc, using top tier human weaponry and systems from the past)
So they have everything at hand but just don't know it
Now who's writing up fanon?
30k Mechanicum was doing new shit left and right. They weren't scared shitless of daemons.
Explain the field modifications that become standard baneblades, or the multiple patterns of armor since the Heresy
The vaults of morvik were about shoving daemon dick into machines
Dark mech are less innovative than mechanicus since that's all their solutions. Shove a daemon in
The problem is that during the heresy and even more importantly the scouring the innovative ones died first leaving arch conservatives and trump magos in charge of policy
Also xenophobia - eldar use grav bikes so grav tech must be heretical
Also jealousy and fragmentation of knowledge - Ryza specialises in plasma so Mars and others forges don't bother
The result is less competition to improve stuff which is the driving force
Tech marines have made more advances in knowledge than tech priests since they have the necessity of war
Council of terra is like USA politics - useless
False innovation
Same goes to you. The text says the ability to truly innovate was lost long ago. This goes for the Cult Mech and the Mech-Cum.
And referencing older fluff when we are talking about newer fluff is utterly pointless because the new fluff trumps the older.
>Dark mech are less innovative than mechanicus since that's all their solutions. Shove a daemon in
The Dark Mech invented the Planet Killer and plenty of daemon engines. they are coming up with new stuff though towards one direction.
t. Schlomo shekelstein c/o Tel Aviv
I am an oldfag that turned his zo GW back long ago (around 5th edition).
But does it mean that the fluff suggests that the golden throne is failing?
Cont'ed
When was the last time did the Admech create a new brand engine of planetary destruction?
I thought so
The Golden Throne is failing and this is underlined in the 5th ED main rulebook. Why did you miss it?
The Golden Light is receding leaving behind it a daemon haunted darkness.
Radical Admech have used their captured Webway portal to travel to the Dark City to strike a bargain. It's speculated by fans that t he bargain is about fixing the Golden Throne.
Just fuck off, carnac, nobody gives a shit what you're selling.
But you are my favourite customer.
Because I even haven't bought the 5th ed rulebook. I started with 2nd, my prime was during 3rd.
Remember that time when the Mechanicus tried to invent a thing?
Ganymeded is still under quarantine.
Take ship shove daemons and daemon artifacts in
Out-of-universe answer: Because it's the basic premises. 40k is grimdark.
>Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war.
In-universe answer: It's fucking dangerous. 40k tech is, despite its religious aspect, very advanced, and plays with immense/nefarious forces, so an incident is usually far worse than Tchernobyl. See the Ganymede irradiation when the AdMech tried to create new power sources. Or the Men of Iron.
Not to mention that warp and xenos stuff often actively tries to kill you. How many techpriests were nommed while trying to study tyranids?
Also, 40k is an artisanal universe at war. As the AdMech saying goes "Knowledge is power, hide it well". When you don't you give Grand Cruiser designs to the Chaos forces.
Theorical research isn't particularly encouraged when you could improve the manufactoria production by 2,1% instead.
Like Bernard Palissy, you have to reverse-engineer everything with a few starting elements. And when you die, let's hope that you had an apprentice that wasn't too stupid/didn't die with you, otherwise this knowledge is lost.
There is a still called the "Patient Hunter".
It's about a single Riptide standing alone against 50 Leman Russes and a Baneblade of the Admech. The tanks were named with such names like "Folly of Innovation", "Pride of Ignorance" and other stupid names.
The Tech Priests rolled in secure in their number and their holy tech. The Riptide stood its ground and soon the killing began. The Riptide started killing the tanks one by one. The "Folly of Innovation" fell, followed by ignorance, and even mire still. I find it ironic that the pinnacle of Tau innovation, the riptide, was destroying things with names that condemn everything it was and exalt its antithesis.
The Admech commander n the Baneblade was losing his mind from a mix of anger, terror, and frustration at the defiance of the Riptide. My favourite part of the story was when the tanks focused fire the Riptide in one volley. Through the smoke and fore, the Riptide strode forth almost unscathed. At the sight of this the Admech commander became a drooling mess as he went into a nervous breakdown. He started pulling on his cybernetics and screaming.
The Riptide stood triumphantly and continued its slaughter of the tanks.
10/10 read you should download it guys.
Because the general state of people in charge of technology is fucking fucked.
>Not to mention that warp and xenos stuff often actively tries to kill you. How many techpriests were nommed while trying to study tyranids?
And how many worlds saved because the Admech figiured out a weakness of the Nids or developed a poison for them?
>Because it's the basic premises. 40k is grimdark.
A premise defied by the existence of factions that rely of tech such as Necrons and Tau.
And do you know who said that quote? Vulkan. There is a /po/ joke in there but I won't stoop that low.
this is one tl;dr of Admech "dun du" from a tripfag.
>Riptide the Hedgehog
>"psssh...nothin personnel...gue'la..."
It's grim and dark from the viewpoint of humanity which unsurprisingly is the center of the setting. The premise isn't defied by the fact that Necrons and Tau have tech it's amplified by it. The Enemies of Mankind are advancing so quickly and humanity not being able to compensate is very grim and dark.