I hate monks

I hate monks.

Now, don't get me wrong: there are ways where "hitting shit with your fists" works. Exalted has the whole Greek Myth-meets-anime thing going on, and the martial arts make sense because they bend reality to make it work as well as swords and crossbows and shit. And since the setting is so Asian, and the only important martial artists story-wise are Immaculates and Sidereals, it ends up more-or-less working.

But games like D&D? Absolutely not. Putting aside that they clash thematically with the obvious Tolkien/Western-inspired design of every class (before you say "psionics," know that I think they clash as well, though for being too sci-fi rather than too Asian), there's the fact that there's a reason why pre-gunpowder armies used spears and swords and shit and NOT fists: they have inferior range, they have no leverage to increase power, and they aren't sharp. This applies to far more than D&D, by the way.

Monks shouldn't be a viable class to anything that makes even the pretense of realism. "Oh, user, but it's fantasy! Dragons and shit!" No. Willing suspension of disbelief allows you to stretch what's allowed by reality, but not throw the rules of reality out the window. It doesn't give you a free pass. There's a distinction between "vampires" and "sentient colors that sail between dimensions singing to the fabric of the ether in order to keep it vibrating at the right frequency and prevent the metaphysical anthropomorphic manifestation of Pop-Tarts from stealing Nikola Tesla from his crib while still an infant."

That is what I consider monks to be in any setting with even a pretense of realism.

> Haha, I've said "Muh fantasy, muh dragon and shit", and it instantly makes this argument invalid, I'm so smart.

No, suck my enlighened dick. In a game where you can study so hard, you can throw fireballs with your mind (psions), become so strong, you can jump to heavens or so slick, you can slip into a keyhole, punching shit is what breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Seconded.

>Use supernatural abilities to throw a summon an elemental embodiment of fire
>Use supernatural abilities to punch harder than a guy normally could
If your suspension of disbelief permits the former but not the latter, your priorities are skewed.

And besides, what modern fantasy setting doesn't have a not-Japan part of the world these days?

I do not hate monks, but I do hate rangers.
> I can cure wounds with my touch, control grass, summon animals out of thin air and disappear into trees, because I live in the woods.
With druids, they're magic and shit, most often their abilities are granted to them by gods. Same with clerics and paladins. But how the fuck do rangers cast spells?

Monks aren't just martial artists, they also wield energy called ki that gives them their speed and ability to hit shit hard with their fists, among other abilities.

It is literally magic. Monks are punch-wizards.

>That is what I consider monks to be in any setting with even a pretense of realism

Why'd you mention D&D then? Aside from the DM's guide saying flat out you don't need to include a class if it doesn't match the style you're going for (using the monk as an example for a more western game and removing the paladin as an example for a more eastern game), and you needing to respect that there's settings can enjoy a degree of versatility, the idea that there's a pretense of realism when someone's wiggling their fingers and making fireballs appear is kind of silly.

>And since the setting is so Asian, and the only important martial artists story-wise are Immaculates and Sidereals, it ends up more-or-less working.

But, Exalted doesn't really work with anything.

>But, Exalted doesn't really work with anything.

>ITT user fails Knowledge (Pasta) checks

This, right here.

This pasta is stale...

>Wizards exist
The literal job of a wizard is to ignore mundane reality. If you're going to tell me that wizards can exist in a setting with realism while monks can't, you're three steps short of a waltz and full of shit besides.
I am fucking done and a half with 'but muh realism' when a Wizard jumps onto his magical steed and summons a sword out of mystic energy while hurling fireballs and vaporizing people with what amounts to laser beams while the fighter stands there with 'a sharp club'.
Fuck you, OP, and shove your shitty bait up your ass -where you apparently stuck your head.
I don't even care at this point, because someone out there is idiotic enough to actually believe this, and I might as well point my white-hot rage at being reminded of the stupidity at OP.

>too sci-fi
>TOO SCI-FI FOR A GAME WHERE ONE OF THE FIRST PUBLISHED SETTINGS HAS A CITY POWERED BY NUCLEAR ENERGY AND UNDERGROUND ELVES WHO WORSHIP A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST THAT FELL THROUGH A WORMHOLE INTO THEIR WORLD
Stopped reading there.

Wait, what? Where?

>armies didn't use

Literally the worst argument. Pre-modern armies don't use things that work in one-on-one engagements, they use things that work for looking flash as fuck, for mass combats, and for looking flash as fuck inside mass combats. Compare that to an adventurer, who is preferably always ready to murder a son of a bitch, even if the city he's in bans anybody poorer than a merchant prince from carrying a sword or wearing yellow clothing. If you want to appeal to realism with your adventurers, you're better off looking at guerillas and other non-traditional combatants.

The Blackmoor Campaign, run by Dave Arneson, was the first ever full-on D&D campaign. "The Blackmoor Event" is a historical event in Mystara/the Known World setting, which was the official setting of Basic D&D when it was around.

There was a city where a strange power came from underground, and powerful people used it to get power. The Immortals (basically gods, who are all ascended mortals in this setting) got pissed and cursed the thing to suck magic out of the material plane whenever they drew upon its power. The strange power was nuclear energy from a... I don't remember if it was a nuke or a fusion reactor for a power plant, that had somehow wound up there.

Meanwhile, in some caves, Shadow Elves, Arneson's non-evil (though very bitter toward surface-dwellers in general) equivalent to drow, worship a being named Rafiel, who was a scientist that somehow wound up there. Details are fuzzy.

His home plane is basically a time machine only instead of times it travels between planes (and possibly between multiverses, such that he could visit our world if he wanted to).

> there's the fact that there's a reason why pre-gunpowder armies used spears and swords and shit and NOT fists: they have inferior range, they have no leverage to increase power, and they aren't sharp.

But in real life martial arts were created by people who weren't allowed to use spears and swords and shit and would, in fact, be killed if they had them. For characters from oppressive nations, learning how to hit hard with your fists or farming implements makes a lot of sense, because those are the only things you can use to protect yourself from criminals, bandits or the local guards (who are typically just criminals and bandits).

Presumably any setting with "monks" or martial artists would tend to follow this concept - that the hand-to-hand fighting techniques were created because people didn't have access to anything better.

So what you're saying is: "I wasn't around during the late 80s and early 90s, and don't understand the Oriental creep that occurred and why it left an impression."

Got it, OP. But don't care.

The only thing sci-fi about psionics is the names. Swap them around and its just an alternative magic system for people that prefer mana pools to spell slots.

If you're bullshit strong enough that you can kill a rock colossus with a sword, you could do it with any weapon or with your fists

Monks are touch-range wizards.
>b-b-buh--
No buts.
Monks are superhuman pieces of shit that are capable of destroying reality by doing 100 squats, 100 sit-ups, 100 push-up and running 10 kms. EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

This is the real reason why we need a setting where literally everybody is some flavor of wizard but they choose how they actually want to fight.

Like Full Metal Alchemist but more inventive.

>b-buh Fighters!
Self-buffers with magical equipment they crafted/made magical themselves by customizing it with runes.
>b-buh Rogues/Bards!
Dickass illusionists and mind-controllers.
>b-buh Monks!
Wuxia.
>b-buh Barbarians!
Muscle wizards with sorcery in their blood.
There are classic pointy-hat wizards, there are touch-range-"monk" swift wizards, there are muscle wizards, there are dick-ass blinking'n'stabbing wizards, there are artificers and alchemists - there are so many flavors of wizards that literally every archetype can be presented by, you guessed it, wizards.

You mean Night Wizard?

I never understood this. Doing an:
>ind4 muh fantasy
Doesn't nullify how stupid you sound. It's fantasy, it's made to be unbelievable, because fantasy isn't real. It's a game of magical three headed dragon monsters and Octopus headed brain eaters, and you concerned with people punching things. They even explain in DnD(5e, at least) that it's empowered by Ki. It's not *Just* punches, it's punches basically laced with inner energy.
I bet you're the guy who bans dual wielding because it's "Historically inaccurate"
It's fantasy. Enjoy it, have fun. Don't ruin other people's fun because you're an unimaginative little shit.

Cool, I disagree and will continue to allow them.

Good thing there's no pretense of realism then.
10/10, did reply.