Pathfinder General /pfg/

A low-level dreige or half-giant psychic warrior (silhouette) seems like an unstoppable juggernaut even compared to a low-level pathwalker.

Strength 18 and Wisdom 18 are both feasible for a 1st- to 3rd-level dreige or half-giant. They can wield a large two-handed weapon for 3d6+6 damage on a hit, and their shadow has an *even more accurate* attack that also deals 3d6+6 damage. With Expansion, this becomes 4d6+7 damage. Force Screen gives +4 AC to both the silhouette and the shadow.

At 1st-level, a silhouette takes Escape Route as their feat and keeps their shadow in their own space at all times, so that neither of them provoke attacks of opportunity for moving.

At 2nd-level, a silhouette will take either of these two:
>Follow-up Attack: Once per round, when the silhouette hits a creature with an attack, his shadow can make an attack against that creature if it can do so. This attack is in addition to the normal limit on the shadow’s attacks.
>Grasping Shadow: The silhouette’s shadow gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat (even if it doesn’t meet the prerequisites) and can make attacks of opportunity without counting them against the normal limit on the shadow’s attacks.
(More direct offense vs. more attacks of opportunity with Expansion.)

The silhouette and the shadow will absolutely overwhelm enemies with a tremendous action economy advantage.

I would think power attack might be more important at level 1 than Escape Route, would it not?

Nah man, you already have infinite points for stats, why wouldn't you have infinite points for feats?

Just do a two-handed weapon build and pick up something like Improved Critical or Keen.

Not when you can get an even more accurate +3d6+6 damage a level later. No, not really. I'd put PA off til 3 for that shit.

The accuracy loss isn't really worth it at that level.

20pb, 16 Str and 16 Wis, +2 to both for racial mods. You need to dump Cha to raise your Con, but who doesn't dump Cha?

People who aren't powergamers, and that actually like to roleplay.

Actually, I also forgot: PA requires +1 BAB, which level 1 PsyWar doesn't have.Psionic Proficciency doesn't help either, since that only applies to psionic feats.

d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/call-weaponry
d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/technological-weapons#TOC-Id-Rifle

>Shadow Weaponry (Ex): A silhouette shadow wields a weapon formed from psionic energy, similar to a soulknife’s mind blade but much more limited in scope. This weapon is treated as a duplicate of one of the weapons the shadow’s creator is wielding, including any magical properties and similar effects (though if the weapon is an intelligent item, its intelligence is not copied). The silhouette can change the weapon the shadow is wielding as a free action, provided they have a different weapon for the shadow to copy. A shadow can always wield any weapons its silhouette can.

Also, Call Weaponry can give a silhouette not one, but *two* technological weapons, one for themselves and one for their shadow, be they vortex guns or x-lasers. (That said, how ammunition works is a mystery and should probably be clarified.)

Power Attack requires +1 base attack bonus.

Just updated it. They generate their own ammunition.

Which will generally not break anything. For balance concerns, the minmaxers are what need to be looked at.

Slap a low level flurry penalty on it? Flurry is basically what it boils down to.
Heck, just give a penalty if you're attacking the same target, which conveniently cancels out flanking (bringing flanking up to normal and this at an accuracy penalty) and also encouraging them to do the cool special thing the class looks like it's set up to do, i.e. fight two dudes as good as two dudes.

You can roleplay with low Charisma just fine.

>balance things in a vacuum
>not balancing for reasonable play

Yeah, roleplay as a fucking autist or a loser who gets consistently ignored by the NPCs.

>Touhou posts a build that will never be used
>Waaah waaah it's broken, ruin it for actual players! Only casters can have anything good!

t. Paizo

In what world is taking 2 16s on a 20pb a vacuum? I do that routinely, and I don't even play high op.

Having glaring oversights that cause issues with gameplay isn't a good thing. It's something to be avoided. That's what play testing is for.

By this logic Wizard is a perfectly fine class, since only munchkins can make it broken.

It takes considerable investment to try to make a psychic warrior remotely competent at social skills. They have no use for Charisma and lack Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive in their class skill list. Traits can fix this (e.g. Cunning Liar for Wisdom-based Bluff, plus a Bluff in-class trait), but this incurs a non-negligible opportunity cost.

Charisma doesn't mean you get ignored. It means people might have trouble remembering you and when you open your mouth they might not immediately like what you have to say. It's hardly unplayable.

>In what world is abusing a combination of things to win combat, by going for every possible option, a bad thing

Well, there's that thing where doing that's bad. Too bad it'd never actually happen unless you're a faggot, and that nerfing it would ruin it for anyone who isn't abusing it like a faggot. The solution to balance things isn't to just ruin it.

Just stop. You aren't helping anyone or anything. You've had this explained to you countless times.

Tell that to my 5 Cha dwarf Warder who is possibly the most jovial fellow you'll meet. He's friendly, open, and loves to swap stories over a good dwarven ale until someone passes out.

>Well, there's that thing where doing that's bad.
Wow, you're good at this.

Here's a hint if an ability has nothing between "balanced" and "broken" IT"S A SHIT FUCKING ABILITY AND SHOULD BE RE WORKED.

What's the point of the Charisma score if that character is just as memorable and lovable as the Charisma 18 one?

>and if it uses a thrown weapon, creates a new copy after each attack

So... unlimited Alchemists Fire/maybe Tanglefoot Bags and similar?
(Maybe just copy over all the wording from Phantom Sun Stance?)

What's the point of roleplaying if a number on my sheet tells me what my personality is like?

Except it isn't broken. It's a perfectly fine ability. The only problem is that people like touhou exist.

Good to know you never actually play games or are effective in any way, shape, or form. Having two 16s isn't powergaming at any definition, and you seem to be under the mistaken assumption that being good at your role means you can't also roleplay.

>a dwarf Warder who is possibly the most jovial fellow you'll meet. He's friendly, open, and loves to swap stories over a good dwarven ale until someone passes out.
I don't like telling people how to play, but at 5 charisma you probably aren't friendly since you concept of empathy at that point.

Trolls, Gorgons, and Manticores are more sociable than you at that point.

>be 5 Cha dwarf warder
>love telling stories about adventures
>friendly and talkative
>but nobody remembers you
>or you stories
>literallywho.jpg
>might even be aware that it happens
>yet he soldiers on
keep on trying dorf
You'll make in someday ;_;

>In what world is abusing a combination of things to win combat, by going for every possible option, a bad thing
>Well, there's that thing where doing that's bad.
Someone is playing the wrong goddamn game, holy shit.

I really like the silhouette but touhou has a point here.
Damage problems are damage problems and this was far from a super obscure case.
Pointing it out is the point of the playtest existing.

No it's not. The ability is easily abusable. Anything involving given the PC another set of actions, especially ones that can do damage, needs to be looked at.

Because Charisma, more than any other stat, is extremely variable in meaning. You can be jovial and friendly like and still have low CHA because they keep saying racist shit, or parrot jokes they've heard before and thought were hilarious over and over again, or even just be the ugliest motherfucker in the country so people don't recognize his good ideas because he looks like warmed-over shit.

For a dreige or half-giant psychic warrior (silhouette), I would probably take:

20 point buy: Strength 16+2, Dexterity 12-2, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 16+2, Charisma 7

25 point buy: Strength 16+2, Dexterity 12-2, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 16+2, Charisma 7

It is probably a good idea to use the wording of Phantom Sun Stance, because otherwise, a silhouette could have a limitless supply of alchemical or special-material ammunition through their shadow.

>What's the point of roleplaying if a number on my sheet tells me what my personality is like?

What's the point of those numbers on your sheet if they don't impact your roleplay at all?

That's like saying a Strength 7 Wizard should be portrayed as a bulky tough badass who can beat all the arm-wrestling competitions.

Charisma doesn't determine personality. In this case, it was that the character was badly scarred (his entire face was burned in a dragon attack). But he still enjoyed companionship, and i dont see why a low stat should change that.

But isn't that ability the entire archetype? Removing that would basically be scrapping the whole thing right?

>What's the point of those numbers on your sheet if they don't impact your roleplay at all?
Are you serious?

>Charisma doesn't determine personality.
It literally does. Or at least how it's expressed.

Roleplay =/= actions, and roleplay =/= numbers either.

Yes. The entire fucking archetype needs to be reworked because ANYTHING that gives the player an extra set of hands needs to be carefully analyzed and fine tuned.

They should, in an ideal world, influence each other though.

Influence, yes. But dictate? No way.

How much of a charisma bonus (or a charisma penalty offset) is a paper bag worth?

So, onto solutions, then. Obnoxious PP manifestation requirements for what's basically the best Astral Construct you'll ever make? Limit the shadow to what you've actually accomplished or lesser? Ideas. Hopefully better than those ideas. Those ideas are horrible and I hate them already.

Oh great, so I could easily describe my Strength 7 Wizard as being a big muscular badass and throw a hissy fit when the DM insists the 18 Strength Barbarian is way stronger.

I mean, roleplay should not be influenced by the numbers, right? Where's the harm in roleplaying my character as a big tough brute?

Don't be an idiot. Mental stats are much more nebulous than physical stats, especially charisma.

Vestigial arm isn't broken.

d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/bred-for-war

o i am laffin'

You can play him as a muscular badass, because the numbers still dictate that however strong YOU are, other people will be EVEN STRONGER. The bar gets set, and then continues upwards. It's like that one guy in Kill La Kill, who's official size is "bigger than you".

would locking in a statblock do the trick?

That's a good point actually, but that doesn't give extra attacks

I would not know how to try to repair the action economy advantage that the silhouette has.

An 8th-level dreige or half-giant psychic warrior (silhouette) can manifest Hustle to move as a swift action, ignoring attacks of opportunity thanks to Escape Route. They can then make a grand total of 5 attacks with their two-handed weapon:

Two from their full attack
One from their shadow
One from Follow-up Attack
One from Follow-up Flurry

In addition, their shadow also has Grasping Shadow by this point, which means free Combat Reflexes. With increased size due to Expansion and Dexterity equal to the silhouette's Wisdom, the shadow will be pouring out attack after attack, and enemies cannot even try to tumble past with Acrobatics due to the shadow's very high CMD.

>Mental stats are much more nebulous than physical stats, especially charisma.

Bullshit, low mental stats beget a certain character personality that can be interpreted in a variety of ways by the player, but should be determined nonetheless.

I literally can not imagine how you could say it's fine to admit a gangly spigot isn't as strong as the big tough barbarian, but the big tough barbarian should be every bit as charismatic and wise as the bard.

You're making this argument something totally different. The point is that a low-CHA character doesn't have to be uninteresting and totally devoid of roleplay opportunities.

What's so funny?

>Minmaxed thalidomide baby psion in their floating armor case with 3 strength claims they're the strongest
>World collapses into muscle singularity

Potential ideas:
Attacking with both the PC and the shadow in the same round impose an attack roll penalty to both of them.

Then, instead of making extra attacks to multiply your damage, make it cover for your failures.
The Follow Up talent instead lets it make an extra attack against a target only if your own attack missed it, and it doesn't trigger the above penalty if that's the only sort of attack it makes.

A low-CHA character *should be uninteresting*, that's the entire point of a shitty Charisma, that they lack any sort of social presence.

Insisting a Charisma 5 Warder is as engaging and interesting as a Charisma 18 Bard just shits all over the idea of what Charisma should be, and makes you even ask what's the point of Charisma even existing if someone with the Charisma of a Troll can be a vivid storyteller that enraptures their audience with tales of other worlds or ages.

Again, it's exactly like saying a noodly-armed Strength 7 character should be described as being a professional arm-wrestler.

Haunted Heroes Handbook "Pact Wizard Archetype"

Level 1
Get a witch patron + witch spells added to spellbook
Ability to spontaneously cast witch spells in place of prepared spells
Prepare spells in 15 minutes instead of in one hour

Level 5
Oracles Curse
Can add any spells it gives you to your spellbook for free

Level 10
Roll twice and take the better result when rolling concentration/caster level/initial/saving throw checks 3 + (1/2 Int) times per day

Level 15
Add your int bonus to those rolls
Reduce spell level of metamagic spells from your patron/oracle curse lists by 1 to a minimum of the original level

Level 20
If you roll a nat 20 you auto succeed whether or not it’s possible

What do you think the best NOT third party witch patron would be for a pact wizard?

the second sentence

Really? I had ranks in Perform Oratory, so my modifier for that was still above the average person. I'd say that the rest of the sheet is significantly more telling than the statblock.

>A low-CHA character *should be uninteresting*
No, bullshit. Charismatic and interesting are not the same thing. Your comparison to strength is dumb because a character not being strong doesn't impede the player from having fun with their roleplaying. You seriously want to put a cap on how interesting a low-CHA character can be? "Who hold up there buddy, this character of yours is getting too fun for his 9 CHA, you're going to have to make him more dull and generic if you want to abide by the rules."

>If you roll a nat 20 you auto succeed whether or not it’s possible
Wait, what does that MEAN?

How much worse is it when we consider a silhouette could use a bow with rapidshot and manyshot by that time

>Doesn't mention the Perform (Oratory) anywhere in the original post

What the fuck.

What does that matter? Putting ranks in perform allows my character to become interesting? Is perform now a requirement of an interesting character? what about High Cha characters with no Perform ranks?

It's almost like a low Charisma doesn't make a character uninteresting

Skills and Saving Throws don't auto-succeed if you roll a twenty, you only auto-hit if you roll a twenty on an attack roll. This changes that to be how most people think skills and saves work.

>Insisting a Charisma 5 Warder is as engaging and interesting as a Charisma 18 Bard just shits all over the idea of what Charisma should be

A warder with the ordained defender archetype (which is compatible with the zweihander sentinel) replaces their 3rd-level bonus feat with an inquisition, which can be the Conversion inquisition, whose initial benefit replaces Charisma with Wisdom for all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

Conveniently, a warder (ordained defender, zweihander sentinel) is Wisdom-based and has Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive all on their class skill list, making them a perfect party face.

A bow build is far less necessary for a psychic warrior due to the existence of Hustle. A dreige or a half-giant swinging with a two-handed weapon will almost certainly deal more average damage per round, especially with Expansion and Grasping Shadow.

>If you roll a nat 20 you auto succeed whether or not it’s possible

What the fuck, please tell me this is worded a bit more sensibly than it sounds.
>I roll Diplomacy to try and convince Shelyn to turn evil and start genocide on the material plane
>Use cyclops helm
>Nat20
>Success

Hustle devours PP on a low-PP class.

>Your comparison to strength is dumb because a character not being strong doesn't impede the player from having fun with their roleplaying

Of course it impedes their ability to have fun with their roleplaying, how is the low-strength character supposed to express their immense strength if the DM insists they aren't actually strong?

And now you see why Charisma is such a shitty fucking stat to use as a dump, you can lower it as much as you want and you will NEVER experience ANY sort of penalty for doing so because the implication is that your character is just fucking *boring.*

So what's the fucking point of Charisma if it just gets ignored? The Charisma 5 Warder is just as loved as the Charisma 20 Bard, just deal with it! Maybe the Charisma 5 Warder should get just as much of a bonus to their Charisma checks as the Bard? I mean, as you said, Charisma has no roleplay effect on the character's ability to express themselves, so why should the vivid storyteller suddenly become a bumbling idiot stumbling over their words when the DM asks for an actual Diplomacy check? Please, explain to me how that works.

>I use Knowledge (Arcane) to transform the current plane into a giant futanari goddess
>Use cyclops helm
>Nat20
>Success

Fuck man, translate your reasoning over to INT and WIS and see how that sounds.

>No, your character isn't allowed to have an idea that smart because their INT is only 8
>No, you have 6 WIS, so you're not allowed to make a good decision here

My best understanding is that it means that any time you roll a nat 20 on a roll effected by the level 10 ability you automatically succeed. It may mean ANY nat 20 roll. So say you decide to make a roll to mage hand slap a god all the way from the material plane and your GM say it's "physically impossible". If you roll a nat 20, i suppose you break all reality and manage to mage hand pharasma in the face.

You're not even listening. I'm not saying Charisma has no impact on anything. Just that it doesn't dictate whether a character can be interesting from a roleplaying perspective.

Oh totally. She's top-tier chest material, hands down.

"Interesting" and "pleasant to deal with" are two different things.
Making interesting plot hooks, social or no, is the responsibility of the player and the DM working together.
Low charisma can mean you're boring, obnoxious to deal with, an obvious attention whore, any number of social ills and sins. That doesn't cut down on the number of plots and subplots and interactions you can take, but it DOES mean you're less likely to interact with them by being successful and glibly interacting with them in a pleasant manner.

Can we get the actual wording? Otherwise it's gonna derail into "I roll to ascend to godhood until I get a twenty" "The Red Mantis shows up a turn later and decapitates your character, stealing your soul" "ur a faget" "no u"

It may be less insane than it sounds. It may only effect concentration, initiative, caster level, and saving throws, which is still insane.

>I'm not saying Charisma has no impact on anything.

That's exactly what you're insinuating by saying that Charisma should not have an impact on how your character is played or reacted to by the world at large. If the Charisma 5 Warder is a vivid storyteller that loves to laugh and be the life of a Tavern than it will be jarring as hell to see him suddenly become a stuttering wreck at even the simplest of diplomacy checks.

Charisma has literally zero significance in roleplay, that's what you're saying. Except when it matters in a mechanical scenario, of course, in which case the charming character suddenly becomes incapable of even forcing out a single sentence without making him look like a jackass.

More than a firm handful is too much boob.
Less than a firm handful is too little boob.

A fair point.

Hustle should supplementary to the strikes and boosts a silhouette will attain via Martial Training, then. An 7th-level silhouette with Elemental Flux Stance and Elemental Flux strikes will be terrifying.

I sadly only have someone else's wording to go on. It looks likely that it only influences concentration/caster level/initiative/ saving throws.

What happens if I take Psyarm 2 and silhouette X? Does shadow weaponry copy mind blade/panoply?

One of these days I'll get a chance to make a chesty bard, one of these days.

And bullshit that a firm handful is too much boob, have you ever thought about boob-pillows? Boob hatting? There is a world of possibilities for well-endowed characters and you're just ignoring them.

It's only a Move action, not a Standard, and it consumes the Swift action that a renewable Boost would provide. Hustle is ideal for full-attackers, not standard action initiators.

Oh, no.

I can palm a basketball.

So I got invited to a Pathfinder game recently that I'm cautiously optimistic about. The idea is that we're gonna be running around as dragons in mortal skins. DM gave us pretty OP stats to start with, 12+ 1d6, reroll the two lowest. So I ended up with 18, 18, 18, 16,15, 13. On top of that he told us to add +2 to any stat we please.
I've decided that I want to try and run a Witch this game, and looking at my options I think I want to roll with a plague patron. My questions are:
1. how should I spec my character?
2. what are some good all around feats for a witch to have?
3. any spells I should really shoot for beyond a couple of healing spells?

I want to play an Arcane Trickster... but then our party won't have no access to Raise Dead or Breathe of Life (until Limited Wish).

I could always UMD CLW for healing for Raise Dead is difficult...

How do I fix this? Only Paizo content allow.

>Charisma should not have an impact on how your character is played or reacted to by the world at large
No. Every stat has some impact on how your character is played. But there are multiple ways to be interesting. Uncharismatic people can be interesting.