>Tight tactical fft-esque skirmish combat. >lots of different character builds while maintaining a good degree of balance. >characters have multiple plausible actions each turn.
Less of a fan of a lot of the implementation, however.
Not a fan of: >AEDU (I'd rather a single mp system or something like shadowrun's roll to avoid nonlethal damage when you use special abilities) >different characters have different structures of how their powers work in terms of limited resources (psionics, core, monks, essentials, it's inconsistent). >very limited multiclassing.** >no real domain/guild/noble house rules or rules for larger scale combats. >most powers become useless as you level up, and don't scale with your level, instead you have to either forget them entirely or re-learn the same power, rather than continuing to get new ones. >characters often only have a handful of powers, and most are "can only use once". Ideally, high level characters would have like 12-16 powers to pick from, and could use them until they ran out of mp, at which point they would be limited to at all powers.
Are there any other similar games i could look into that might be closer to what I'm looking for?
If you have any suggestions, what makes them a better fit than 4e?
Try out Unchained Heroes, it's a rather good implementation in that style
James Sullivan
I can't really go into much detail about either, but 13th Age and Strike! are the two most-often compared to 4e.
William Myers
Can anyone tell me more about strike or unchained heroes?
Landon Fisher
>Don't like AEDU Then you play a Psionic class. Not having AEDU and having an MP System instead is their thing.
Ryder Bailey
Read the rest of the post, your reply isn't even remotely helpful.
Im looking for a tactical skirmish rpg where *all* the classes use the same mp system, and ideally they have 12-16 level-appropriate viable power options to use at the higher levels.
I'm looking to see if there's an option better than "houserule the shit out of 4e to near unrecognizable status until it starts to resemble the game I'm looking for".
I'm aware i could rebuild 4e from the ground up into a totally different game. Looking for easier options, because 4e simply isn't close enough to what I'm looking for for it to be a simple task.
But I spelled that all out in the op. I doubt repeating it is going to make much difference.
And now I'm also looking for information on the games already mentioned.
Colton Harris
Good luck. I am monitoring this thread, as something that plays like a pared down 4e could be perfect for Shining Force TT.
Henry Hughes
Id like it for a pseudo fft campaign .
Kevin Green
Strike is a game inspired by 4e and stuff like Fate or Burning Wheel It essentially splits the game into two parts: 1) Strict tactical combat where you use stuff like HP, powers, classes and roles (those two are separate, BTW). Pretty well designed. 2) Wibbly wobbly narrative everything else, inspired by Burning Wheel
Made by a first timer, so editing is awful
Kevin Martinez
Someone made a Fighter and Wizard revision, each of which makes a good basis for a more free-form power system.
Nathan Diaz
...
Jayden Rodriguez
...
Nathan Roberts
Stop shilling Strike!
Why does Veeky Forums keep shilling Strike!?
William Moore
You could easily make a Power Point system for each of these effect by "upgrading" an at-will to encounter power level by spending 2/4/6 power points.
Logan Smith
For fuck's sake, can you read, you memeing shit? asked to tell more, so I did. No idea who mentioned the game in the first place, I didn't and wouldn't do it.
Wyatt Jackson
You're still shilling Strike!
Caleb Young
Don't be a twat, I asked him for info. That's not shilling.
Anyone know anything about unchained heroes?
Hudson Ross
BTW, OP. There's a game called Unity. Not sure if it's out yet, but it's supposed to be a pretty much 4e retroclone just with even more emphasis on teamwork
Fuck off. Also, as long as it's not sold under Pay What You Want, it's better to get it from a PDF sharing thread
Gabriel Cook
There's a difference between the two games?
(I kid, I kid, but the genre isn't that diverse in terms of play styles.)
Owen Jenkins
Those two games basically went opposite direction from 4e.
Unchained Heroes added a lot of shit and is a bit more complicated (also, it changed the nomenclature I assume to evade getting sued, and it's really fucking annoying). Strike! stripped out a lot of shit and is a lot more simple.
I'd recommend Strike! for both. Admittedly, no real unified mana system (yet, an expansion is coming).
Nathaniel Cruz
I'm mostly familiar with the First 2 Shining Force, so I think it's kinda funny how the martial characters in the game don't use MP but have encounter powers via item usage (including some weapons have charges of spells)
Eli Wright
Unchained heroes is compatible with Pathfinder adventures, right? I think I read that. Is it Pathfinder based?
Caleb Walker
Seems to be based on d20 system with serial number filed off but the changes look pretty substantial
Nicholas Lewis
Anyone have a link to either game?
Jayden Rivera
No it's not. At best it would be compatible with 4e, but IIRC that's not the case.
You are probably mixing it up with "Pathfinder Unchained" which had some rule variants for PF (including an Unchained version of Rogue, Monk, Barb and Summoner, as well as stamina points and action points).
I think my personal biggest complaint about 4e is that there's only one str/int race in the game, and only two str/cha races
I like all the varied class options, but the race options seem severely limited by comparison. So much dex and charisma, so little strength
Brandon White
Srd doesn't include the whole game.
Benjamin Wood
>Unchained Heroescan adapt and be adapted to any game system, but it works best currently with Pathfindergame modules. From their website
Jeremiah Cruz
Huh.
Weird. I distinctly remember it being more 4e based.
...
Maybe the reason it felt so complicated and weird is that they took PF as the base system. But then why not use the nomenclature? Why invent a new one?
Maybe I read something else and I'm mixing it up.
Sebastian Jenkins
>BTW, OP. There's a game called Unity. Not sure if it's out yet, but it's supposed to be a pretty much 4e retroclone just with even more emphasis on teamwork
It's got some 4e elements but also 3e-isms like hit dice and 13th Age backgrounds instead of skills. It has a mana-like resource system so the OP might like it.
Carter Gomez
>The Unchained HeroesFantasy Core Rulebook is a 8.5″x 11″ page format in two columns that contains over 150 pages of extra content that you won’t find in the SRD. There aremore classes, a host of magical items, unique character stories, advice sections, a Bestiary of ready-made monsters, beautiful illustrations, and you will be able to get it as a Hardcover or Softcover book in addition to the PDF form (SRD will be PDF only).
Srd doesn't include the whole game, but its at least a start.
Carter Garcia
I'll definitely check it out.
Thomas Johnson
People shill Strike! because it seems to be the only 4e spin-off that doesn't start by declaring that its combat system doesn't use miniatures or a grid.
John Edwards
Unity only just finished its Kickstarter a couple of weeks ago and the delivery date is December 2017 so I wouldn't hold your breath.
>We don't have turns guys, we have a slider and multiple!e actions getting resolved by each player sequentially in a line So, they still have turns. They just added additional complexity.
Zachary Edwards
Of. Well that's a long fucking ways off. Right then.
Cooper Mitchell
Why do Strike! shills get so defensive over Strike!?
Jaxson Russell
Presumably because some asswad will call you a shill for simply asking for information about a game, or for answering someone who asked for said information.
I say this as the guy who doesn't know anything about strike and asked for the information.
Brody Gonzalez
And it's less about being defensive about strike (which for all I know is crap), and more about getting annoyed at the troll being an obnoxious ass when you're looking to get an answer to a legitimate question.
William Rivera
I'm not getting defensive, I don't like Strike!'s take on skills at all. But miniatures and the grid are central to 4e's combat and every other game that claims to be some sort of 4e spin-off immediately ditch them. Basically, Strike! is the only published attempt at a 4e retroclone.
Camden Barnes
(cont) and it's not a very good one, because it threw out a skill system with some problems for something that's completely whacko.
Wyatt Lewis
I mean, you could just grab the 4e skill system for it.
In fact, I've been itching to play Eberron and had been conceptualizing a "4e-ifyed" skill system for Strike!
Adrian Johnson
I am listed in the development credits for Strike! (although I had only a very minor role), and even I fully denounce and disown the entirety of Strike!'s basic noncombat system.
Speaking of which, you may be interested in knowing that Strike!'s newest supplement, its massive expansion of classes and other new options, is to have a new and polished playtest document released soon.
Jayden Hall
Can't wait for the berserker.
I wanted that archetype represented in Strike! since its inception.
Xavier Green
From what I understand, the berserker was supposed to be written by Mr. McGarva, but they had never gotten around to sketching up the class themselves. Someone else submitted a surprisingly workable berserker class, and now Mr. McGarva is polishing that and using it for the actual berserker.
One of the berserker builds involves a Tome of Battle crusader-style damage delay mechanic.
Strike! is also soon to have an errata/FAQ document and a free player's guide. The latter is the core rulebook minus all GMing information and a completely revised layout.
Justin Barnes
See this right here is shilling.
Not this.
Logan Evans
I make no money from Strike! whatsoever.
Xavier Anderson
>Made by a first timer, so editing is awful I am an aspiring first-timer and English isn't even my native language. How important is editing to you and what in particular should I be looking out for?
Ian Diaz
>Solid mechanics. >Good organization. >Clearly explained and worded mechanics.
Proper grammar is nice, but less important than the things above.
Matthew Ortiz
Editing is incredibly important. In fact, there are people who do it professionally, and if you care at all about your end product you should seek them out.
It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if you can't communicate them well.
A good editor does way more than fix your dumb shit grammar. They'll do that too, of course, but the fact that you think legible fucking syntax is just "nice" means you've probably got much bigger problems.
Evan Clark
>wants to sell a product that is 90% words >"lol who cars abuot grammer guiz!"
Christian Reyes
>proper grammar is more important than of the game is actually functional guiz!
Someone actually thinks this? Wtf.
I'd much rather a game that plays well but has grammar errors than one thats poorly designed but written properly.
The idea that anyone could actually insult me for having that opinion, on Veeky Forums of all places, is fucking laughable.
Luke Perez
All the good rules in the world won't help you if your editing is shit. Look at FFG's translation of Anima: Beyond Fantasy, or Legends of the Wulin.
Jace Mitchell
>Autocorrect errors I didn't catch. Phoneposting at 3:30 am. My point still stands.
Nathan Long
Right, how bad/good your game is doesn't ride on shit like layout and grammar and stuff like that.
How readable, and by extension, how popular your game can get, however, does. Many people use grammar as a litmus test for quality, and with good reason. If I was a normie looking for an RPG (and not a nerd reading systems for fun), I'd drop a game with bad grammar and editing mistakes super fast.
Nathan Murphy
I haven't played/read either of those games, but I've only heard good things about them both.
Blake Lopez
>I meant for marketing, not the actually quality of the game. Sure, I guess, if you're not the type to use look up reviews to inform your purchasing decisions.
But yes, bad grammar is irritating and looks unprofessional. Much like shitty art, sloppy graphic design, an ugly cover, or putting your whole goddamn book in a hideous unreadable font like papyrus.
Nolan Russell
The rules are good, but ABF's translation is bad in places (especially Prometheum Exxet), and there are a number of awkward sentences and typos and such that a good editing pass could have caught.
LotW is infamous for its terrible editing that requires you to go back and forth throughout the book to make sense of the system.
Lucas Lopez
My problem, as a non-native speaker, is that: a) proper editing, including grammar, costs money and art is already eating away my funds b) my friends are also non-native English and haven't been, tbqh honest famalam, not very supportive in general. In spite of being long-time gamers.
But I very much want to publish in English - everything else hasn't enough reach.
Grayson Wright
Write it up in your own native language first, then translate it.
Adam Moore
FFG's products, particularly the 40K RP first edition, have seen some shitty editing. I mean DW's Squad Mode rules were fucking unplayable RAW. They just made no fucking sense and were heavily errata'd. But the license and the artwork kinda meant they were getting away with it for the most part.
Dylan Sullivan
this doesnt eliminate the problem of awkward phrasing
Julian Hernandez
You could .
Alternately, write it yourself as best you can, and give out a couple of free copies to interested native English speakers in exchange for them checking it over and pointing out your remaining errors.
Alexander Wilson
There's a common problem for badly edited games like Legends of Wulin, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying or Strike. When you read the book it looks less like a rulebook that describes a game and more like an arcane grimoire.
Andrew Bailey
>mechanics were unplayable due to shitty editing.
That's more than just poor grammar. And falls under what i said is more important up here.
Andrew Adams
The thing is, two of the three things you mentioned in are only achievable with fucking good editing. As anyone who has written anything knows, the real meat of the process is in the editing and the rewriting.
Ryder Bailey
>>Good organization. >>Clearly explained and worded mechanics.
Do you even know what editors do?
Angel Bell
Nice, thanks!
Liam Bennett
depends on the type of editor. copy editor, line editor or even technical editor.
Kayden Phillips
Anyone here played Strike? I like 4e but I want something that runs a bit faster and can handle some old-school dungeon crawling(Something that handles multiple smaller fights rather then 4e's setpiece battle approach)
Nolan Butler
From reading it looks like a somewhat faster 4e. Didn't actually manage to run it
Jason Howard
I play (GM) Strike!
Making multiple smaller fights is a bit tricky in Strike!, because if the players roll over the enemies without taking any significant damage (and they will roll over "easy" enemies, unless some lucky crits or being caught in a really bad position happens) then they recover without spending any resources.
That said, you can easily tweak it so HP damage does carry over between fights (or limit recovery in some way) and only goes entirely away between long rests. That would make a full crawl very, very brutal.
You may want to replace the entire out of combat part with Lamentations of the Flame princess (it even uses d6) and optionally hand out 1-2 skill points / level for maximum oldschool.
Gavin Stewart
>Limited multiclassing when hybrid rules exist >Thinking powers don't become more useful as you level up in a world where Low Slash, Come and Get it, and Lightning Daggers exist
Like OP the rest of those are personal opinion but two of your reasons are straight wrong.
Robert Ward
Good, good, you are one step closer to realizing which system is actually the best one.
Michael Brown
I've tried it
It's not to my taste, but it is certainly faster than 4e
Kayden Wood
cont
Another thing you could do instead (if you use the "built in" core rules) is handle weak enemies like traps or other random obstacles you need to get past, and ask for either creative solutions or skill rolls.
Those can end in twists/conditions, and you are free to go brutal with those.
The book actually contains a mini rules-blurb for playing hardcore deadly classic flavored dungeon crawling games.
With all that said, you may still prefer going with an OSR game instead, however.
Carson Anderson
Cool, thanks for the input. Gonna read it through and see if it´s worth tinkering with.
>With all that said, you may still prefer going with an OSR game instead
I´m allergic to games that are stuck in the 80's and still use THACO and races as classes unfortunately.
Lucas Taylor
>is to have a new and polished playtest document released soon. And how do I get a hold of this document when it releases? Do I have to buy it, or will it be public?
Asher Morris
Touhou usually shares it (shared the last one anyway).
Jose Adams
No retroclones actually use THAC0. Only Basic-based retroclones use race-as-class. Just saying.
Charles King
Got any you recommend?
William Rodriguez
Plenty, but I doubt it's what you're looking for. Still, for general education I can recommend Ambition & Avarice.
It's a third-wave OSR game, so it isn't a direct attempt at cloning some oldschool version of D&D. It's slim, it has nice layout and various interesting takes on classes and mechanics. The best thing is that it also explains general OSR philosophy for a modern player and does it really well and doesn't leave the impression of a groggy grognard just rambling about how things were better back in the day.
It's a good way to learn how oldschool dungeoncrawling works and why it's not neccesarily about fighting monsters (and you're looking for something that handles multiple fights so I don't know).
Logan Sanchez
Stop shilling Strike!
Why does Veeky Forums keep shilling Strike!?
Jaxson Rivera
I strongly advise you to hold your breath for as long as it takes to die.
Angel Perry
Stop telling people to stop shilling Strike!
Why do you keep telling people to stop shilling Strike!?
Colton Myers
It's not Veeky Forums that is shilling Strike! It's a single autist that worked on it.
Anthony Green
Goddammit, people! Stop telling people to stop telling people to stop shilling Strike! Why do you keep asking people why they keep telling people to stop shilling Strike!? That shit gets really old!
Adrian Bennett
Buy Strike today!
Angel Rogers
Fuck off, SHILL!!!
Justin Gutierrez
There is FrankenFourth and Dungeons & Delvers, both are in Alpha Playstest
>What in particular should i be looking for. >I point out the more important aspects, and something else that makes a good impression thats less important. >you somehow infer that none of this would require any editing, or an imagined statement about editors not being important. I dont even... Are you high?
Anthony Gray
Neat. Reading them now.
Julian Evans
Is the 'stop shilling strike' guy a single guy or is it a meme? I can't tell.
I like Strike, but I haven't played it much.
Here's a link to the Unity free sampler, by the way. It looks alright although it's not out yet.
I'd rather people mention Strike! as a decent possible choice in a 4e thread then people just shit post when people mention a game they don't like.
At least Strike! advocates actually supply details, rather than GURPS advocates just meming on bell curves and not even supplying the ideal GURPS package for the idea in text form.
