What went wrong?

>It was fantastic for its time
It's an overly-complicated, horribly balanced mess. That hardly qualifies as fantastic. As ad hoc and wonky as AD&D is, it's still more playable than 3e.

>and really updated AD&D in a lot of ways that were necessary
This I'd agree with. If nothing else, the standardization of subsystems to the d20 mechanic was a big step forward. Also, reducing the number of saving throws and putting them into sensible categories that lets you understand how and why they work was great. The actual math was horribly broken and yielded worse results, but the concept was solid.

>consolidating saves into three universal rolls were fantastic
Quae, me nigroidicus?
The utter destruction of the save system was maybe THE single biggest reason for the Quadratic Wizard problem. It's literally the worst thing 3E changed.

Nah, he just knows the difference between a suggested price and the prices various retailers sell at. Don't knock an user for being knowledgeable in his area, it's not cool.

That's not "they", that's one designer. His views do not represent the views of the entire company.

For it's time it was a nice polish to the old AD&D system and a welcome addition of depth and complexity. Many games from the same era were going for more complex systems and AD&D was following the trend. In (1989) it's main competition was for the most part Hero System (1989), Rifts (1990), and Vampire in (1991) with a mixture of other older and newer RPG's filling the gaps here and there. Of course this also depends on the groups and local popularity.

However the overall design scheme was complexity with Vampire inspiring a more cinematic/dramatic approach that would go on to inspire later story driven games.

AD&D 2nd did well for quite awhile but with any system age begins to show the flaws of a system. Another aspect of the problem with the system was the glut of products being pushed out many of very poor quality and some not even playtested. It ended up creating a wealth of material but also an utter mish mash of crap.

As far as the re-release of older books went, they are a very niche product within the niche hobby and older used books were common and cheap from sources like Noble Knights and Ebay.

The base system is simple, and its complexity scales up and down based on preference. If you're finding it too complicated, you can always scale back. Something as simple as saying "no casters" drops the games complexity down to make it simple enough to be an introduction game for new players, but still with plenty of depth.

As far as balance, it actually took a few years for people to really start to break down the system, but it's one of those things where while people are breaking it down, they're also explaining how to avoid certain issues. The math in general was "sharp" rather than "soft", where small changes could be really felt, and while this means that it could sometimes get a little rough, it also made it an ideal system for homebrewing and generally a fun system to play with, largely the marriage between mechanics and fluff was done quite well, even if it got a little too detail-oriented.

It's got its flaws, but in retrospect, it's still an amazing system that did a lot of great things. Simply comparing it to 2e and seeing all those archaic ideas should give people an appreciation of just how important 3rd was in the history of roleplaying games.

That had nothing to do with the consolidation of them into three categories and instead how they scaled. Which itself was a good idea poorly executed. Making it so that saves at low levels weren't a death sentence and at not irrelevant at high levels through scaling DCs rather than flat numbers was a good idea, it was just terribly executed with the good save/weak save thing.

Ivory Tower seems to be something you don't really understand.

The key is that the focus is to provide options and rules, without always going in depth in the best ways to use them, under the understanding that players would be able to figure this out for themselves. This was an excellent decision for the internet age, because any in-depth analysis of particular abilities could be found online, leaving the material in the actual books themselves denser and more varied.

>YWN again feel what it is to play 3rd edition back before you knew just how it was a broken mess

Shame. I remember my friends arguing that monks and psions (the 3rd ed psion, not the 3.5 ones) were the best classes in the game. Oh those were the days.

As to AD&D 2nd, I wouldn't say anything went wrong with it exactly. It was a clean up of 2nd edition that removed some of the Gygaxian nonsense. I'd say it didn't go far enough in improving the game, but that carried with it the advantage that it was still compatible with all the old modules.

THANK YOU

They stopped making it and released 3rd edition.

When I sit down to play a game, I expect to play a tabletop RPG, not a fucking card game.

If you're printing over a dozen books filled with options, but over 90% of those options are bloated shit that nobody should ever choose if they plan on being relevant past level 5, then something is horribly horribly wrong.

If you're just on this site to shitpost, you need to head to /b/.

If you're genuinely this stupid, then you might want to not voice your opinion when you obviously don't know anything about what you're talking about.

Your posts just reads like you want to argue from the perspective of someone who doesn't understand RPGs at all, and if you want to enjoy how much fun that is, please tell me your favorite system, so I can tell you how 90% of the options in it are bloated shit that nobody should ever choose.

I can already tell you know it's not going to be a fun discussion.

Listen mate, we've been over this multiple times, in multiple threads, in multiple different ways.

No matter what I say against the system, you'll accuse me of being a troll, or voicing petty complaints, or being bad, or being uninformed, or whatever stupid excuse you choose to use in this particular junction of the argument that basically comes down to "you're wrong because I'm right."

Nothing I say will get you to admit that 3.X has some glaring faults to it, and anything I do say will just be met with counterpoints such as "It's popular so obviously you're just the angry minority," or "you can just homebrew away the problems if you want," or "it's not a problem at MY table" or any number of flawed 3aboo logic that will just get repeated over and over again until either I fall asleep or the thread 404's.

I already know that you don't even play third edition, and you're only in these threads to start flame wars. 3.X is over a decade old, has been studied and dissected to hell and back, and most of its playerbase has already moved on to 5e.

It won't be a fun discussion, but only because it'd be like ramming my skull against a brick wall.

However, just to show that I'm a good sport, I'll at the very least list the number of systems I've played so you can tell me how shitty my taste is and bump the thread up with inane bullshit.

>D&D 3.5
>D&D Pathfinder
>Exalted (don't know the edition, been about 4-5 years since I played)
>All Flesh Must Be Eaten
>Apocalypse World
>ShadowRun 5e
>DeathWatch
>Rogue Trader
>Paranoia
>Anima, beyond Fantasy
>Changeling: the Lost
>Mage: the Awakening
>D&D 5e
>WoW d20
>Star Wars d20

As well as various homebrews and custom systems that my friends are making and a handful from 1d4chan like the Mario RPG.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Tell me your favorite system. I want to tell you how 90% of the options are shit.

Oh look, it's eternally triggered bitch-user.

I know that you're the same 3aboo that has been derailing threads for the past few weeks user.

Even if you aren't the person I'm thinking of, it's clear that you're not really interested in a discussion, rather, you're only interested in starting petty flame wars with random strangers on the internet.

But y'know what, I'll give you one more.

Out of the list, I think All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Apocalypse World, Paranoia, Changeling: the Lost, and 5e are my personal favorites.

Have at it.

Okay, now, let me take some random flaws some people have voiced about the systems, and exaggerate them, and congratulations! We have a shitty discussion because my main focus isn't actually to look at games for what they are, but to act like a cunt and complain about them.

See how much fun that is? Or, do you actually want to go into the details, where I list those complaints, and you argue like an idiot because you think anyone actually cares, and then I just relist those same complaints.

Welcome to the endless cunt cycle. Only way to break it is for you to stop being a dumb cunt.

>Okay, now, let me take some random flaws some people have voiced about the systems, and exaggerate them

Go ahead, that's kinda what I expected you to do instead of going into a long winded speech about I'm a cunt for daring to call 3.X garbage.

I mean, I'm not quite sure what I expected but this is just a major disappointment, you didn't even try.

Your issue isn't that 3.X has problems.

Your issue is that this is an AD&D thread, and you're so fixated on complaining about 3.X that you are willing to make a constant fool of yourself, and will continue to do so until you meet some impossible goal you've set for yourself.

What's your end plan? Scare people away from ever mentioning 3rd edition, lest they trigger you?

The irony of you calling me triggered when you immediately get defensive just because I called 3.X garbage.

For the record, I'm not even the guy who brought up ivory tower design ITT, I just disagreed with the one guy who thought that producing a tabletop RPG with the same design philosophy as a card game was a good idea.

I'm still waiting on you to point out which 90% of my favorite system's options are shit btw.

>The irony of you calling me triggered when you immediately get defensive just because I called 3.X garbage.

What triggers me isn't that you called a particular system garbage, but that you're a particularly dumb cunt, and your method of arguing is centered around being a dumb cunt.

Basically, 3.X is your target for now, because that's what kind of person you are. There are hundreds of worse systems, but you need to endlessly complain about 3.X because it's in that sweet spot of being popular, but being old. If it wasn't 3.X, you would commit to shitposting about some other system that offends your insane sensibilities, and this would continue forever.

My end goal is to try and convince you to move on, and to just stop being a dumb cunt, especially when you don't have a shred of knowledge about game design or design philosophy, largely because you're not actually interested in understanding games, you're interested in collecting ammo to feed your bullshit cannon.

>producing a tabletop RPG with the same design philosophy as a card game was a good idea.

Like this. Where do you even come up with this shit?
You've long since gone beyond hoping that people actually take you seriously, haven't you? Just pure shitposting?

>Like this. Where do you even come up with this shit?

Pic related.

Actually read that though.
Recognize it's not about taking card design philosophy, but it's just a way to introduce the ideas he's going to be discussing by comparing them to another game with similar but very different designs, and to use them as a bit of a foil.

But, that can't sink into your head, because you're too consumed by hatred to understand anything other than "I HATE D&D, HOW CAN I USE THIS TO HATE D&D?!?"

You should really pay attention to the last few lines. Hopefully, one day, it can sink in that there's good and bad aspects to Ivory Tower Game Design, not just bad. If you want to pretend that you understand game design, you're going to have to be able to understand that there's good and bad things that come with most decisions, and if you can only see the bad ones when looking at something like a popular system, you're just going to end up losing out on the parts people care about and that actually made the game a success.

Seriously. Quit being so dedicated to being a dumb cunt.

Man, if only mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport.

But y'know what, I'll bite, sell Ivory Tower Game Design to me, explain to me how it's not as terrible I thought it was.

Let's start with something simple, what makes it good?

You just posted a page that gave reasons why it can be good.

Look, seriously. Enough of being a dumb cunt. That's all you want to be, and all you're going to be, especially if you're asking questions that you yourself already provided answers for.

What is wrong with you? I just told you not to be so blind, and your immediate first response is to show how blind you are.

You don't want to learn, you want to argue. You want to argue in a particular direction, and you put all your effort into trying to get people to argue there. Look above, where you still kept asking for me to tell you about how 90% of your favorite system is shit, completely and utterly missing the point I was trying to illustrate to you. You honestly want to have a pointless argument, because you think you can prove something that literally can't be proven, because you are so sure of your opinions that you are convinced you can dismiss anyone who disagrees with you.

You don't understand how to break out of this circle, even when I've told you time and time again.
Quit being a dumb cunt.

Y'know, maybe if you didn't act like a defensive baby who got triggered by someone else's opinions, maybe you'd actually find people who would be willing to have a discussion with you.

Then again, this would only work if you knew how to converse with people in the first place so I guess it's a wash either way.

I'm not triggered by you having opinions.

I'm triggered by you being an utter idiot, an arrogant idiot, and an obsessed and dedicated idiot, regardless of how many times it's explained to you why you are such an idiot.

You are free to dislike any systems you want. You just need to stop being a dumb cunt about them though.

He mad

>I'm not triggered by you having opinions.

No, I'm pretty sure that you're triggered by me having opinions.

You just can't articulate it without making yourself look like an even bigger idiot than you already are, so you spout "NO U" and hope that's enough to get back at me.

I knew going in that I was dealing with a retard, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to show me that the bicycle helmet was because you owned a bike and not because you have the coordination of a octogenarian alcoholic.

>You just can't articulate it
I just explained to you why.

Feel free to think you can dismiss it at this point. I think we're already well past the point where anyone has any illusions about you being anything more than an idiot consumed by hate.

G'night. I'm sure you'll be shitposting in the morning, and the day after that, and the day after that, because as long as people will continue to ever mention 3.X, you'll be there, making a fool of yourself.

People weren't willing to pay obscene amounts of money for what they could get out of their LGS' used bin for a fraction of the price.

I just want to point out what I said at the very beginning of this discussion, specifically >No matter what I say against the system, you'll accuse me of being a troll, or voicing petty complaints, or being bad, or being uninformed, or whatever stupid excuse you choose to use in this particular junction of the argument that basically comes down to "you're wrong because I'm right."

All I can say is, you did not disappoint.

3aboos only play 3rd edition.

You utter, utter idiot.

It literally doesn't matter what you say about the system. You, you personally.

Because your thesis is impossible. You're still convinced you can prove that a system that people enjoy is a system that they can't enjoy. That they have no right to enjoy it.

I can't believe how many times I've explained this to you. What is this? The fiftieth time?

You are a troll, who voices petty complaints, who is both bad and uniformed, who thinks quite highly of his own opinions, regardless of how stupid the foundation they are built from.

You just want to argue, you just want to complain, and you are just a whiny bitch who's upset about a popular system being popular.

Tell me, what compelled you to express today how little you knew about "Ivory Tower Design"? What made you think that anyone wanted to hear your maligned and skewed opinions that failed to comprehend even the basics of the topic?

What could it possibly be, other than a brain-consuming hatred that renders you an utter idiot?

Again, I say

>No matter what I say against the system, you'll accuse me of being a troll, or voicing petty complaints, or being bad, or being uninformed, or whatever stupid excuse you choose to use in this particular junction of the argument that basically comes down to "you're wrong because I'm right."

Also,

>Nothing I say will get you to admit that 3.X has some glaring faults to it, and anything I do say will just be met with counterpoints such as "It's popular so obviously you're just the angry minority," or "you can just homebrew away the problems if you want," or "it's not a problem at MY table" or any number of flawed 3aboo logic that will just get repeated over and over again until either I fall asleep or the thread 404's.

You're right about someone being affected by a brain-consuming hatred though, try looking in a mirror next time before delivering your diagnosis though champ.

>Nothing I say will get you to admit that 3.X has some glaring faults to it,
3.x has faults.

What now?
No one ever said it didn't have faults.

Really, what are you going to do? Spend the night repeating your old thesis on how you should be allowed to project your personal opinionated grievance on the larger gaming community, despite the larger gaming community disagreeing with you?

And, don't even start with the old "but my personal opinion isn't that of a small minority". It really is. There's big numbers and lots of awards that tell you that, and you just don't seem to be willing to accept it. It's like you're fucking terrified of realizing that.

Just accept it. You're a little, powerless bitch who is upset about how little and powerless he is, so you endlessly lash out. You revel in the idea that no matter how much of an idiot you are, you can continue to be an idiot, and no one can stop you.

But there is someone that can.
You.

You can finally stop yourself from being a dumb cunt.

>There's big numbers and lots of awards that tell you that

Sonic '06 was a platinum seller.

Just thought I'd mention that.

Show me on this anatomically accurate paladin doll where the 3.X Wizard touched you.
Veeky Forums is fucking cancer.

Yes, we all know what's wrong with 3.X and that retarded design refused to fix those aspects.
Even years later, see Pathfailure.

But 3.0 was revolutionary at times and introduced loads of good stuff. People enjoy 3.X games acknowledging the limits.

skills and powers were also badly broken. rules are good when they are sensible; ideas are fine when they're ideas that you flesh out. mixing the two into halfbaked rules is a disaster.

You'd have a better chance of finding a VtM group that aren't fat goths or twitards than you have of finding a 3aboo who actually plays other systems.

That's why failed, because everyone was already playing 3rd edition and didn't feel like sinking the time into learning a new system.

Is Sonic '06 the 2nd most played video game a decade after its release?

Regardless of that, we all know that popularity and quality are not directly correlated, but opinion and popularity are correlated. People disagree with you. A lot of people disagree with you. A whopping percentage do, so much that it infuriates you.

If they tell you why they like 3rd edition, you don't believe them.
If they tell you why they don't care about your complaints, you repeat your complaints even louder.

You don't respect their opinions, and then you think anyone should respect yours, when all you do is say impressively stupid things and demand to be taken seriously.

>You'd have a better chance of finding a VtM group that aren't fat goths or twitards than you have of finding a 3aboo who actually plays other systems.

If that's what you believe, we're basically done with this discussion. You're just a spiteful troll.

>You'd have a better chance of finding a VtM group that aren't fat goths

I can't speak as to whether or not this stereotype was ever true, but these days it's my understanding that most people play The World of Darkness as instead being The World of Ow I Subbed My Toe Someone Turn on the Damn Light.

Certainly that's how I always played it.

>3aboo

What, exactly, is a 3aboo? I rather like 3.X, but I've certainly tried other systems, including Vampire (Masquerade and Requiem both - preferred Masquerade), WEG Star Wars, Saga Edition Star Wars, and GURPS.

These days I vastly prefer 5E, though.

I played BECMI, ADnD 2nd, 3.0 to PF.
But I played VtM and other minor games too.

Yes, we preferred 3.X but because it had WHAT WE WANTED.
It could look absurd or scary but people do like cast quickened maximized spells or crit x4 with a pick.
And if goths enjoy VtM, let them.

I did not mean VtM is minor, as huge then. I meant local italian rpg, like an actually fun one based on an italian comic.

>Is Sonic '06 the 2nd most played video game a decade after its release?

People are still making let's plays for it if that means anything to you.

>A lot of people disagree with you.

YOU disagree with me, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

>If they tell you why they like 3rd edition, you don't believe them.

I've seen people stomach worse garbage so it's not surprising to me how bad someone's taste could be.

>If they tell you why they don't care about your complaints, you repeat your complaints even louder.

Because you cannot have a discussion by plugging your ears and saying "STOP IT STOP IT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" to get your opponent to stop disagreeing with you.

>You don't respect their opinions, and then you think anyone should respect yours, when all you do is say impressively stupid things and demand to be taken seriously.

Oh the irony.

I'm still waiting for you to post those 90% of shit options in my favorite games and why Ivory Tower Game Design isn't actually the worse thing ever.

I mean, all you've been doing is saying "blah blah stupid cunt blah blah idiot blah blah I'm going to stop replying blah blah blah opinions" and yet you expect me, a random user on Veeky Forums, to actually take you seriously?

You gotta meet me halfway there buddy.

>What, exactly, is a 3aboo?

Hardcore 3rd edition fanboy who generally only plays 3rd edition and acts like every other game is garbage without having read the rules.

>Because you cannot have a discussion by plugging your ears and saying "STOP IT STOP IT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" to get your opponent to stop disagreeing with you.

Nor can you have a discussion by demanding people to listen to you when you never say anything worth listening to.

We get it. You're an idiot who hates a game so much, he's triggered to shitpost whenever he sees it being mentioned. Every time.

Do you think I ever initiate these little shitflings? Nay, it is always a reaction to you saying something incredibly stupid, because your brain turns off whenever your personal Satan is mentioned.

Halfway is you realizing that the game you hate really isn't that bad. In fact, arguably great.
What you want is to demand that people accept your idea that it's unplayably bad garbage, when that just isn't true, regardless of how loudly you complain about it or insist that the people who play it are insane, mistaken, or simply not as intelligent as you are.

It's not a problem with you finding faults in 3.X. It is your mental blocks that render you an absolute idiot whenever the topic is broached. You literally turn into a moron, if you're not always a moron, because you argue from the point of view of someone completely certain of his opinions and unwilling to budge or bend them, on a topic that is extremely subjective, while being of the minority opinion.

That's called being a dumb cunt.

>I'm still waiting for you to post those 90% of shit options in my favorite games and why Ivory Tower Game Design isn't actually the worse thing ever.

And holy fucking shit, how many times can I explain something to you. The former was an illustration, the latter is something you yourself provided the answer for.

Do you understand what I mean when I say you're an idiot yet?

I really love how all anyone has to do to trigger you is say "3.X is bad."

I'd ask you to point out what these qualities are that makes 3.X worth playing but I suspect the next post, and the post after that, and the post after that, will just be you ignoring my question, claiming that I'm a "dumb cunt" and generally making yourself look like an angry faggot who cannot handle criticism.

But whatever, I'll ask anyways, what are the qualities that make 3.X good, in your humble opinion?

>The key is that the focus is to provide options and rules, without always going in depth in the best ways to use them, under the understanding that players would be able to figure this out for themselves.
And that's garbage game design. Trap options are meaningless to include at best, and actively malicious to your audience at worst.

I mean, you sounded so eager to prove me wrong, I genuinely thought that you were going somewhere with the whole 90% thing. My favorite games certainly ain't perfect or anything, if you actually had some familiarity with them, you should be able to come up with something to say about them.

As for the Ivory Tower thing, I'm asking YOU, yes YOU, for your input.

I know what I read and I know what my personal views on it are, but right now, I'm asking you to give your humble opinion on subject. Maybe you'll mention something I missed, maybe you'll give me another angle to look at it from, hell, maybe you'll even convince me that it's not all that bad, when used correctly.

But honestly, I suspect that you'll leave me hanging yet again.

>I really love how all anyone has to do to trigger you is say "3.X is bad."

No, it's a very specific kind of idiocy, the kind of blend that says "I'm here just to shitpost."
That's really all you're here for. I've long since realized you enjoy making an ass out of yourself, and that me continuing to engage you just fuels you more. That is your nature, the nature of a troll.

Your question? Irrelevant, as explained. Your dumb cunt status? Perpetually confirmed.

Let's just look at things logically for a second, step by step. Why do YOU criticize 3.X?
What makes you post about it?
What does a 16-year old game that you don't like compel you to shitpost every time you see it?

Your crusade? Your opinion that it's a bad game that no one should play it, so you fervently shitpost in hopes of scaring people away from it?

Why do you even care what qualities I can say make 3.X worth playing? Do you honestly think I can convince you? Or, are you just looking for something to distract the main issue, a new direction for you to shitpost, to waste everyone's time explaining why you disagree with opinions and somehow you think that renders those opinions inconsequential and invalid?

You dumb little troll, let's stop playing this game. Put on a trip. Call yourself the "3.X Inquisition" and mark all your prideful warnings so that people know you are no troll and that you are proud of your stance. That you're not just shitposting, but that you honestly feel no one should ever play 3.X and that you stand by your opinions.

I already know it's stupid to debate with a troll like you, and I take no great pride in wasting my time on what I know is a lost cause, hoping to teach an idiot how to behave sensibly. But you, with your arrogance and pride and your great crusade, surely you want to prove just how much you hate 3.X and that we should take your opinions ever so seriously.

Put on a trip. At the very least so people can filter you.

I'm going to give you one last chance since I'm sure that you had a nervous breakdown right there.

Give me some qualities that make 3.X worth playing, in your opinion.

I mean, I want to believe you user, but how can I when even you aren't willing to defend it?

Different user here.

>what these qualities are that makes 3.X worth playing

Reposting from another thread:

1) Accessibility. D&D is easy to find, both content and players.
2) Fantasy Heartbreakers. Every single fantasy RPG on the market - and quite a few non-fantasy RPGs - are defined against D&D and, their strengths and weaknesses expressed in terms of comparison to D&D. Quite a few of them miss no opportunity to even take potshots at D&D (V:tM springs immediately to mind). So one then wonders...why not just play D&D, the thing that everyone is compared to?
3) It's good enough. Related to (2), D&D might not be the best at everything - or even necessarily the best at anything - but it's broadly good enough in every area to make up for its faults, and it's definitely not BAD at anything.
4) Brand loyalty. It's the same reason I drink Coke, not Pepsi.

Ultimately, the thing that makes 3.X good? Because people are still playing it, or variations thereof, such as Pathfinder. If it was shit, then people wouldn't be playing it: not only is there other stuff on the market, there's other D&D stuff on the market. Granted, 5E outsells and outplays it. And perhaps 3.X is destined to be replaced by 5E totally.

But ultimately, quality is just popularity plus time. Moby-Dick was an abysmal failure when it was released. These days it is considered one of the greatest stories ever told. Because it got popular, and it STAYED popular. Why? Different reasons for different people. The thing I like about 3.X is that I find it easy to homebrew for. Someone else might like how easy it is to powergame in. A third person might enjoy how easy it is to find players for, and a fourth probably is mostly in it for Incarnum or Psionics. And so on.

It doesn't matter WHY, it only matters THAT it's good. Not objectively, subjectively - but to a massive number of people, enough that the 3.X playerbase outnumbers pretty much your choice of any three non-D&D games combined.

Holy shit, fuckface. Awnser the goddamn question.

I disagree with 2 and some of your definitions of its quality, I can accept 1, 3, and 4 as acceptable answers.

Thanks for actually being reasonable user.

Listen to me.
Listen.

That doesn't matter.
Stop pretending it does.
Stop pretending for a second that if I say anything, anything like "the core mechanic is simple, well utilized, and spread throughout the game consistently", you won't dive on it to try and tear it apart.

It doesn't matter. None of this arguing matters. All you're doing is shitposting, repeating the same tired arguments, hoping to pretend a game is far worse than it actually is, all because of some fucking grudge. Hell, it might even be at this point less of a grudge against the system, and more of just the sunk-cost fallacy acting up from all the energy and time you've wasted shitposting about the game.

What's insane is that you probably don't even realize how stupid your arguments are, and never will. No matter how many times someone might explain something to you, you're just too stupid to listen.

Hence, your endless insistence on me answering irrelevant questions, like you think diverting the argument to let you run your mouth about how much you blindly hate something will accomplish anything.

You hate it. There's no real need to prove that further. Now, how about you try abandoning that hatred already, at least to the level where you don't feel compelled to crusade against a system over a decade old like you think you're enlightening people by telling them the flaws they've already known for years and don't really care about. Most of your arguments aren't even about intrinsic flaws, but facets that you just dislike.

So, quit being a dumb cunt already.

You wasted 15 minutes of your life typing up all that inane bullshit, yet you can't give me one compelling reason for why 3.X is actually worth playing?

It's not really a good sign when you spend this much time going "meh, I'm going to be called a faggot anyway so, *sigh* why even bother?"

I gave you your one.
Now, how about you stop being a dumb cunt?

>pretend a game is far worse than it actually is
Don't most people consider 3.X to be "complex and deep at least if you like numbers, but ultimately flawed to the core"? It's not the worst game on the market.
It's just if you want to play it and have everyone enjoy it, you must tip-toe around the deep abiding flaws.

You just gave some vague answer concerning the mechanics and left it at that.

Which mechanics were simple, utilized, and consistent? What makes them this way?

If you can type this , it shouldn't be unreasonable to answer my questions.

>Don't most people consider 3.X to be "complex and deep at least if you like numbers, but ultimately flawed to the core"?

Not really. Most people just play it. Kind of why its the 2nd most popular game sixteen years after its release.

Most people aren't weenies.

>Most people just play it
I'm pretty sure a great deal of people playing it acknowledge the flaws and play around them (e.g. no tier 1/2 toolbox demigod shenanigans). That'd be the point I was trying to make.

Quit moving goalposts, and stop pretending it matters.

Too vague for you? Fine.
>1) Accessibility. D&D is easy to find, both content and players.

Here's an answer. You've already accepted it, so you can move past your little diversion, and focus on the issue at hand.

You hate it. There's no real need to prove that further. Now, how about you try abandoning that hatred already, at least to the level where you don't feel compelled to crusade against a system over a decade old like you think you're enlightening people by telling them the flaws they've already known for years and don't really care about. Most of your arguments aren't even about intrinsic flaws, but facets that you just dislike.

So, quit being a dumb cunt already.

We're arguing semantics. You're saying it has deep flaws, I'm saying those flaws are not quite so deep, and hardly deeper than you'd find in most other popular systems.

>Quit moving goalposts, and stop pretending it matters.

It's not moving the goalposts to have you elaborate on your points user.

>multitudes of core features being in wild disarray is not deep flaws
CR doesn't fucking work
Druid gets a pet Fighter
Monks lose to NPCs

Holy fucking shit, nigga, you mad.

Cute, but you've got an answer already, you've already accepted it, so you can move past your little diversion, and focus on the issue at hand.

You hate it. There's no real need to prove that further. Now, how about you try abandoning that hatred already, at least to the level where you don't feel compelled to crusade against a system over a decade old like you think you're enlightening people by telling them the flaws they've already known for years and don't really care about. Most of your arguments aren't even about intrinsic flaws, but facets that you just dislike.

So, quit being a dumb cunt already.

Why not spend a sentence or two telling me which mechanics are "simple, well-utilized, and consistent?"

Can you not do it because they don't exist? Because I'm not going to let you piggy back off of someone else's answer when you've been nothing but an angry cunt this entire discussion.

First, you stop sucking 3e's cock like you owe it money. We'll move on from there once you are capable of that.

Until then? We'll call 3e shitty, and laugh as you have a stroke on the keyboard about someone shittalking your waifu.

>Why not spend a sentence or two telling me which mechanics are "simple, well-utilized, and consistent?"

Because it doesn't matter.

Look. Listen. Seriously, stop, and read these words. Stop. Seriously. Stop.

Your insistence is ridiculous. I'm not going to argue with you about a system you hate, a system you hate blindly.

You love to argue and be a cunt. There is no limits to how dumb you can be when you're talking about the system that's apparently consumed your soul. Even right now, you are more focused on figuring out how to get me into an argument about the system you hate instead of realizing I haven't been talking about the system for quite some time now.

I'm talking about YOU.

You're not going to let me give you an answer just because someone else already gave it? Why not? Because it outfoxes you? Stops you dead from your little diversion? Who cares about your diversion? Who cares about why you hate what you do, when 3.X clearly hasn't killed your entire family, and that's the only thing that could justify how much hate you direct towards it and how committed you are to your hatred.

It's a system. An old system. A system people enjoy and is about as harmless as a pitcher of ice tea on a shaded porch in the summer. It didn't kill your family, it's not hounding you for money, it's just a game people like to talk about and somehow that infuriates you.

Different user, same as this one, Y'all have your answers.

This is basically every edition of D&D. Old ideas are polished up and made better, but then weighed down with a bunch of new shit that hasn't been properly playtested. The trouble is that the only way to get something as complex as a TTRPG properly playtested is to release it to the players and let them poke at it for like six years. If you *don't* add a bunch of under-tested shit to your new edition, you won't have any fodder for the next edition. This is why 5e worries me. It's a much better implementation of lots of ideas from older editions without any brand new ideas with shitty broken implementation. What're we gonna do for 6e?

That is not the purpose of Timmy cards. The purpose of Timmy cards is that Timmy likes it when he gets to summon Tiamat and have an invincible monster or cast Meteor and totally annihilate the enemy's entire monster army in one go. The point of Timmy cards is not that Timmy is a loser who needs to learn how to be Spike. The point of Timmy cards is that they make him happy and he would rather lose twice in order to win once as a Timmy than win three times in a row as a Spike.

>Unwilling to write two sentences explaining which mechanics he's talking about.
>Willing to write over a dozen lines of text just to say he's already lost.

user, you're so pathetic.

Nah. We're going to keep laughing at the cocksucker that gets so triggered anyone who says a word against his waifu. Don't try to defend his retardation.

Seriously. You are defending this kind of shit.

We have your answers but not Mr. 3aboo over here.

Considering how much of an ass he's been, I'm more interested in hearing his opinion just so I can know what would drive a man into becoming such an angry sperg in defense of a tabletop RPG.

>That is not the purpose of Timmy cards.
Whether Monte Cook actually understood Timmy/Johnny/Spike is irrelevant, his perception of it is how he implemented his part of 3.X's design in any case.
And it's utter nonsense, the idea that trap options should exist to reward players for realizing they are trap options is an insult to the audience on top of a waste of paper and ink.

>Nothing I say will get you to admit that 3.X has some glaring faults to it, and anything I do say will just be met with counterpoints such as "It's popular so obviously you're just the angry minority," or "you can just homebrew away the problems if you want," or "it's not a problem at MY table" or any number of flawed 3aboo logic that will just get repeated over and over again until either I fall asleep or the thread 404's.

Why don't we take a moment to read the thread and see what peoples opinions on 3e actually are:

>3e definitely had some good ideas. It just executed some of them poorly, then dumped a pile of bad ideas on top of them.
>It moved the ball forward in a couple of design areas -- simplifying the core mechanics and consolidating saves into three universal rolls were fantastic. I'm not an anti-THAC0, but positive armor class being better is more intuitive to newbies.
>For it's time it was a nice polish to the old AD&D system and a welcome addition of depth and complexity.

It seems people are quite aware that 3e had serious problems, and that even the people with the highest praise have reservations or conditions.

Try reading the thread next time.

Now actually read the thread, and bear witness to the cocksucker that blows a gasket any time you actually mention one of the problems, you dense motherfucker. Follow your own fucking advice.

>Committed to his diversion

Congrats. You've worn me down.

Here you go.

The d20 is an easy to use dice with probabilities that are simply to calculate, and this makes it ideal for improvisation as well as homebrewing, and just simply for allowing players to quickly figure out their chances of success. It's well utilized with a number of helpful tricks like the "DM's best friend" that make the game rather fluid and adjustable while still retaining a distinct mechanical impact through the common minimal degree of difference being at least 5% for even the smallest of considerations. The simple resolution method used in 3rd edition of d20+modifier vs. Target number is used much more consistently than it was in earlier editions, with almost every player roll being connected to this mechanic, and the various subsystems in the game not straying far from it either.

So, now what? Has your hatred finally dispersed?

You've got to at least pretend you're not a troll if you don't want people to think you're a troll.

That's like trolling basics.

No, see? Seriously, I don't give a fuck at this point. The dumbass flies off the handle so hard when you say *anything* against the system, it's fucking hilarious. He starts screeching and screaming about how if you dislike the system, it's some sort of irrational hatred no matter how may reasons you give, or it's some sort of conspiracy.

I don't have to pretend nuff'n, 'cause the motherfucker is gunna bite and throw a wobbler.

Objectively proven false, considering that other criticisms were levied against the system, and only the one made by an absolute idiot was treated like it was made by an absolute idiot.

Sorry, but you're doing quite poorly today troll. Might want to tone it down when you try next time.

Yeah, sure, 'idiot' when you proved right literally on your first post.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, cupcake. Can't wait to do this again. Go get some rest, I'm sure you've screamed yourself bloody at this point.

Sorry, troll, but the only thing that was proven right is that yes, your hatred is all consuming, and no, you'll never learn.

You're just trolls, and it's a good thing that no one can take you seriously anymore thanks to you admitting that.

There's been more then one person calling you a shithead, cupcake.

Hence the plural.