L5R General: Seppuku-to-go edition

Most of the assumptions being made here are just taking Togashi's empire or Hantei's empire and pasting Doji's face onto the person in charge.

Hantei was the kind of guy to direct people into what they do best, and Togashi was more hands-off due to knowing everything he didn't get involved in, but what was Doji like? Beyond being a bit myopic about the state of her subjects, and only working to ease suffering when it's right under her nose.

Idea: in a setting where White Stag happened at a much later date (a hundred years before the Coup, more or less) a gaijin missionary attempts to patch up relations with Rokugan, offering gifts and technological knowledge - shipbuilding in particular. Years later, the first Rokugani galleon is built, and the first roving Embassy of the Emerald Empire to the Far Shores is created. The PCs are members of the Embassy's "away team" as they journey into the world beyond the Sea of Amaterasu. Hijinks ensue.

winter-court.com/docs/The_Current_States_of_Clans_and_Factions.pdf

Thoughts?

Ryoshun's Empire.

Ryoshun's empire.

Everyone's dead.

Don't care.

We know that she had a head for organization and order. She set up the stratification of society, the first rituals of courtesy, and the early role of women as managers of the household. Empress Doji would probably have the Imperial Houses much more interested into Clan internal affairs, given how she regularly visited all of her brothers.

>Most interesting one would be non-corrupt Fu Leng, maybe.
Actually that would be interesting. Have it so since Fu Leng never opens a portal to Jigoku, there are no Shadowlands either.

You'd have to focus more on human drama and inter-clan relationships and wouldn't have the annoying "SUDDENLY SHADOWLANDS!" crutch almost every fucking plotline uses.

A Fu Leng Empire would still have a possibility of corruption with Hantei. Remember that he was convinced that Fu Leng just wanted what was his by right - I mean, it was true, but Hantei was very possessive of his Empire. (Which leads to Shinjo going NO, ANIKI, WE FUCKING FAILED OUR OWN PEOPLE before she left Rokugan.) I think Hantei would take losing to Fu Leng much worse than Doji or Togashi.

Also, a Fu Leng Empire would be a lot wilder in terms of the fantastical. He wanted to create life most of all the Kami, you'd probably have some really nutso magical creatures all over the place.

It could be a more subtle corruption though, rather than "literal hole into demon realm spewing out radioactive evil contained by a big wall and burly men" Hantei could be the equivalent of Iuchiban or something.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Less ONI IN YOUR FACE, more "but hey, we love the Emperor (we really do) but we can serve the Empire better this way, hm?"

(with the occasional ONI IN YOUR FACE when things go tits-up.)

So am i the only person who's noticed that the Asako Inquisitor is busted rules-wise?

The requirements list that if you are not a shugenja, you have to be able to melee as a simple action(barring the Henshin from becoming one even though in the flavor text it says some Henshin have been inquisitors)

On top of that, the second technique says that if you can't cast spells, you gain simple melee attacks(conditionally), something that was required to qualify for the school in the first place.

There's nothing about it in any errata I've found, and no forums seem to mention it in google. Am I simply the first person who thought about making a Henshin Inquisitor?

I dont get it, did she commit seppuku already and is showing off how tough she is by not collapsing as she waits to die, or did she get clawed at by a monster?

It's Kanshi. Seppuku in protest for your superior's actions. Kanshi is made when your superior puts you in a spot where there is no honorable course of action. Or you simply want to protest their incompetence.

It's a classic trope of some Japanese stories, samurai basically commits seppuku halfway out of protest then bitches out their lord while revealing they're already a dead person so their lord can fuck right off with thinking they can punish their subordinate.

Basically she's saying "YOU'RE SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT I LITERALLY KILLED MYSELF RATHER THAN GOING THROUGH WITH YOUR INCOMPETENT BUNGLING, HAVE FUN IN THIS WORLD YOU COMPLETE DUMBASS SEE YOU NEXT REINCARNATION"

You're a fun fucking pile of laughs, aren't you?

It's the only appropriate response to Winter Court or anything after the Destroyer War, really.

No.

>There are now TWO spider clans
AEG will never learn...

------------------
Writing shit about new snow
for the rich
is not art.
------

-Kobayashi Issa, Edo era haiku poet.

How do you all handle art in your campaigns? Is it just "roll to art good" or do the players have to come up with an idea of what they want to accomplish with the piece? The above poem is obviously a bit of response to the artistic situation the author found himself in, and its intent is obvious. Can art replace courtier for making people look like shit in front of all of the cool kids?

Two things:
1)That poem is pretty good.
2)In my games, art needs a direction and either an image to base it off (i.e. a landscape) or a message - a good roll makes gud art and supports the message, whereas a bad roll can either send a different message, simply look shit or all of the above. I also say that, if the circumstances are right and the rolls are hot, a piece of art could change either fashion or perception of an event. Provided it doesn't stray too far into fantasy - for example, if Hida Toya and Kakita Uta commit seppuku due to their son's sin and an artist depicts them walking peacefully through winter, people may find it touching but they won't believe the two are alive).

So wait, all that shit applies to the card game? Is it ahead of the RPG or separate continuity? I haven't really gotten around to reading the 4E so I don't know what's the state of fluff there. Also, will FF release only a new card game or also new RPG edition as well?

>No.
Ok, I guess that's another appropriate response to those things.

It's for Winter Court, and last I checked, FFG is not running Winter Court. Which means Winter Court will have no official bearing on L5R beyond Winter Court.
Winter Court.

Or, y'know, for the purposes of discussion, you could be less of a shit.

I believe it's common practice to give players free raises if they put effort into roleplaying artistic stuff.

>Also, will FF release only a new card game or also new RPG edition as well?
2017 is the LCG. News at Gencon, at least. RPG is unstated.

Kind of a stupid question, but has anyone ever ran a L5R Ninja campaign? From what I gather it was possible from all the way back when 1E saw the release of the Way of the Shadow sourcebook.

you're not really supposed to unless your gm really feels like tailoring an entirely different campaign. ninja basically have no bushi equivalent and are severely socially handicapped in rokugidani society which limits what you might be doing. might as well play as a peasant trying to save the empire.

Then why does the other guy look so scared of her?
Also what happens to the samurai if they change their mind? If its mid sepukku, does that mean they can still fix it?

He's surprised, and you haven't quite figured out Bushido.

Stuck thinking of "the gauntlet" 12 months of hazing that first year ninja go through?

Actual ninja, for the most part, look like regular samurai and don't advertise their training, so it shouldn't be too hard to run a group who share secret goals and aren't as honourable as they pretend to be in public.

>Then why does the other guy look so scared of her?
And just how the fuck is someone supposed to react when someone walks into the room saying "YOU'RE SUCH A DICK I CUT MY STOMACH OPEN!" and starts showing off the horrible gut wounds?

There are, I think, three different types of ninja in the setting: wet-behind-the-ears Shoshuro Infiltrators who serve as tailchasers for a more competent agent, a handful of peasent/ronin families that do assassination-for-hire and other stuff, and I think there's a Spider ninja school because of course there is.

Then why dont the other people in the room look like they give a shit?

They're not the ones getting called out on being a shit.

Dude, what is your malfunction?

nonsense, kouhai. everyone knows ninjas aren't real.

There's also all the schools that practice clandestine tactics and techniques but are totally not ninja, nope, totes not ninja. Like the Harriers.

>Join L5R game
>Two sessions and still no combat
How long till my rounin uses his hidden mitsurugi technique on some motherfucking japanese goblins?

You're in the wrong game.

Unless you're Crab clan, possibly never. Although if you're not getting challenged to duel someone for looking at him the wrong way, something has also gone wrong.

>in the middle of a battle
>my full attention is devoted to trying to avoid duel requests
Fuck.

Why? What happens if you refuse a duel request?

loss of honor and face, which is HUGE in l5r. it's one of the running jokes in the community how important and ever-present dueling is. and the kicker is there's a clan dedicated to being godlike at duels. guess who keeps challenging others to duels all the time? you guessed right.

Who's going to say you refused the duel if no one in the other side walks away from the fight?

You think the guys on your own side aren't gonna notice you refusing duels?

You will, because everyone is actually really serious about that shit in Rokugan. Even Ronin have honor.

OH god here we go again.

Honor in L5R doesn't entirely work that way. There's a spiritual/metaphysical element that goes beyond just what people think about you, a form of kharma in a way. Even if no one is around to see you be dishonorable, you still lose honor, period.

What if they didnt want to duel the angry swan orchid clan lady either?

See

You think most samurai want to duel qt samurai-ko when she goes after them seeking to avenge her father? No, but duel request has been issued. Unless it's a blood feud or actual prelude to kenjutsu combat it's usually to first blood. Not to mention you don't HAVE to actually due - you can judge each other's quality with Awareness roll and challenger can walk away if he thinks he's defeated by default.

It's not about what you want, it's about what is expected of you.

>loss of honor and face
Entirely depends on what the duel is over, and whether you can safely back down on whatever started it.

There's also the classical ninja - a loyal retainer to a daimyo that will turn ronin and perform whatever duties necessary to maintain their lord's honour and face. Then kill themselves. Naturally, these ninja do not have much of a life expectancy.

They're trying to avoid witnessing his loss of face over being told.

>Also what happens to the samurai if they change their mind? If its mid sepukku, does that mean they can still fix it?

Sepukku is generally not for smart people. They tend to -fix- their problems rather commit random suicide over it.

I would be kinda surprised of what is the whole point of all this. If she has such a big problem with me, then shouldn't she stick a sword into my stomach? So I would most likely reprimand her and order her to get out of my sight and die like the useless piece of garbage she is somewhere else. Her lack of duty and courage as she chickens out with suicide would also disgust me, and the hollow honesty she is expressing would make me express this disgust openly.

So out-motherfucking-standing job from her. She embarrassed me and herself while doing literally nothing meaningful. Why can't women stay in the kitchen?

So if a lord demands to spend the night with one of his subjects in a sexual way, what is the likelyhood of him being refused?

Not necessarily, problem is the fucked up society that uses seppuku as the worst punishment BUT it is also seen as a way to save face. An example books love to use is Scorpion clan has a secret on your entire family and will go public unless you commit seppuku because they want you dead. What do you do? Sure, this is the hook player party needs to jump in and try to resolve the situation, but if it doesn't work out the affected person WILL commit seppuku because it means his family won't lose face because, in turn, that would mean they have to all commit seppuku. Not to mention failing colossally means death is the only way to redeem yourself and die without losing of honor so as not to embarrass your clan or family.

Samurai life ain't easy.

>What do you do?

Looks like a few Scorpion needs to kiss the edge of my katana. So do exactly this or die trying. Alternatively, laugh them right in the face and give zero shit about their super sekret. If my family really has some sort of big bad sekret, then it is not a problem with the Scorpion, but a problem with my family - I should most likely clear house and purge the filth (or die trying).

Bushido isn't exactly rocket science to be honest.

That depends on a large multitude of variables

How far the subject is beneath him, which clan he belongs to, his own reputation as a lord, how much he cares about his reputation as a lord, the martial status of both himself and the subject in question, etc. etc.

>I would be kinda surprised of what is the whole point of all this. If she has such a big problem with me, then shouldn't she stick a sword into my stomach? So I would most likely reprimand her and order her to get out of my sight and die like the useless piece of garbage she is somewhere else. Her lack of duty and courage as she chickens out with suicide would also disgust me, and the hollow honesty she is expressing would make me express this disgust openly.

Duty. It is dishonorable to disobey your lord. It is dishonorable to back talk him. It is dishonorable to point out his flaws (if he becomes angry as a result), especially in front of others. It is dishonorable to talk lowly of one's lord to other Samurai. And on top of everything, Samurai of higher status are right. If they weren't meant to be that status, they wouldn't have gotten it.

So what can a Samurai do if their lord is corrupt and he himself follows bushido only when convenient? Kanshi. You cleanse your soul of the situation entirely, and your spirit returns to meido, so it can be reincarnated or perhaps assigned to a nice celestial realm.

I...see you don't really quite grasp the setting that such a situation would play out in. Often, you're not in a position to decide all that for yourself, if your lord evaluates that the secret getting out (whatever it is, could be something as mundane as an ancestor producing a bastard with a heimin, or a famous play someone in your artsy family wrote that actually turns out to be plagiarized) is worse than the loss of a vassal and orders you to die, you either comply, are made to comply or you run and become ronin and shame your family for generations to come. Going after the scorpion alone will probably be playing exactly to their hand, because then they can eliminate you with just reason, and they didn't even have to rely on your lord to do it. Ergo, their blackmail remains just as valuable (if not more), the one they wanted dead is dead, you made a big mess your lord has to patch up and you shamed your family.

Trying to eliminate whatever incriminating elements exist in your family is even sketchier, as I doubt many secrets can be rooted out without people finding out. Also, your lord decides the shame of whatever secret they have is not shameful enough to collectively order them to cut their gut. You going on a rampage and deciding that yes, it is in fact shameful enough, is nothing short of blasphemous unless you have an extremely good reason for it (probably Maho or Kolat).

>It is dishonorable to disobey your lord. It is dishonorable to back talk him. It is dishonorable to point out his flaws

These things literally can't be dishonorable because Honesty and Sincerity exist. Hell, even Duty calls you out to be "fiercely true" to those you are responsible for (this obviously includes your Lord). Shying away from these things also violates Courage (obviously). At the very worst you can make your point in a rather rude way and thus compromise Courtesy (though, at this point it is debatable whether being rude and making a strong point IS the respectable way of doing things).

Yes, it is inconvenient and Infamy will rain as you steamroll through the social rules, but as said, samurai life ain't easy. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Alternatively, you can have weak honor and lack the heart and guts to walk the stranger paths. In this case, you still have the kanshi to speak when you have no voice. It will just... kinda tell a thing or two about you.

To talk down to your lord is to talk down to everyone responsible for giving him that office. The person who assigned him, the person to assigned /them/, etc.

If a person has a position, they are right and good and deserving of that position. No one has your back trying to fix a corrupt/inept lord by trying to talk to him.

You'd become a ronin or outright killed faster than you can finish your little rant.

I still don't see how the Yogo haven't managed to do away with that curse now and then. I mean I understand it would make for great drama.... But the Yogo are small and we never get an important character from the family.

Aside from y' know, Yogo Junzo.

>I...see you don't really quite grasp the setting that such a situation would play out in.

Nah, I'm just assuming that the samurai in question has a solid Honor Rank (8.0 or higher) and does not have something like Weakness (Intelligence) or some other retardation.

At this point, the samurai is in full "give no fucks, take no shit" mode with a constant Zeroth Rule Rebellion going on (otherwise, it is impossible to be honorable). So yeah, it is, like, good luck Scorpion-sama, you are gonna need it.

Lower Honor is obviously a different question, but that's where things start going kinda shallow and cheap, so personally, I wouldn't bother to go there.

Samurai life ain't easy. Ain't easy indeed.

He was pretty important but after him they didn't get any other important character I think.
Like minor clans. They exist but they're not doing much.

>problem is the fucked up society that uses seppuku as the worst punishment
Nope.

Seppuku ISN'T for you. It's to cleanse the shame you've brought to your clan & family, so that after you're dead, they're not still pariah for having been related to you.

Worst punishment is being permanently kicked out of your clan, and your name erased from clan records.

Shouldn't she have done the female version?
I can't remember the name of it, but I know it exists. It's how Amaterasu killed herself after the death of her husband.

>Infamy will rain as you steamroll through the social rules
Infamy is for serious shit, like banditry, butchering surrendered armies, or practicing maho. Social ineptness just loses you glory and gets you forgotten from anywhere remotely important.

Jigai? It's kill yourself 101 for non-bushi, women, and children. Still, she had Yakamo as her second, so I'm not sure how that one works out.

Doesn't really carry the same level of censure for your lord; you can't just walk in with a very thick, tight scarf on.

My issue with this is that the logical conclusion of "Best at dueling + always challenging people to duels they can't refuse without huge conequences" is that either the Crane just gut everyone or all the other Clans get as good at dueling as the Crane

A better idea would be that the challenged is allowed to set the terms of the duel. So Crane can't just issue challenges, but need to goad other clans into getting so sick of their shit that they're willing to risk getting wrecked by a Kenzishen.

Do you think foreign gods would have a negative effect on Rokugan's spiritual side?

I now want the Emerald Spider Clan to backstap the Onyx Spider Clan with gajinn pepper.

They have the opposite of Bushido

Honour through Dishouner

They would remove a soul form the wheel of reincarnation, so a whole lot of penalties and not many benefits.
Maybe more so in the Colonies

That's basically the Crane MO when they need to kill someone. They play the courts like a fiddle, manipulate the target into some unforgivable faux pas, then arrange a duel.
It's also how they prefer to conduct military affairs, settling it all though the one duel between generals. Basically the Swan 'hat' is desperately trying to move every fight they have into a space where they have the upper hand. Failing that, they tend to go crying to whoever the Emperor is this week

I've always wanted to play a gamesome time after Fu Leng's assault on Heaven and the return of the Moto.
Sort of have it so that Fu Leng ended up killing a lot more Kami than listed and that when the mote returned some of the weird gods/magical beings from the Burning Sands came with them. Now they are here in Rokugan and offering their aid to the people and mucking things up....
But I think this sort of conflict might be.... too small a problem or uninteresting.

Every clan has duelists, and the Crane can only push it so far before other clans (Especially the Crab) just start tanking the loss of honor and steamrolling them with conventional military.
Then the Crane have to pull out their other method, crying to the Emperor until he forces the conflict closed.

The Crab have the Unbreakable Blades (aka Crab Defenders), the Dragon have Mirumoto in general and the Swordmasters, the Lion have Kensai, Mantis... Actually don't have a specialized duelist, Phoenix don't have one either, Scorpion have Saigo's Blades (And I think another one), and the Unicorn have Calm Heart Duelists.
And of course, everyone has generic duelists. Any character with Iaijutsu 7, Reflexes 5, and Void X (where X>2) will be a very good duelist, techniques or no, and in duels to the death, only the start of the fight is iaijutsu. It becomes a regular skirmish after that, meaning Kenjutsu and Agility is the relevant skill/trait combo.

Whats stopping scorpion from telling your secret after you kill yourself anyways?

The fact that they can go to your next of kin and use it as blackmail against them too. It'd be a waste to blow it on a dead man.

Why would anyone speak ill of a dead man?

Ok so I've read shigurui and it seems to be an appropriate enough reference to how people should behave in this setting.

Are there any other recommended manga that has a similar tone?

The Scorpion are usually doing it for a reason, not just out of spite, so there's no reason for them to do that.

So how exactly is someone supposed to deal with an honorless and horrible superior in this setting? There have to be various ways to counter or get rid of troublesome lords and other people in charge.

Can a Samurai make an appeal to the next person up the chain of command?

Can a Samurai start up an investigation or tip of people who can?

What about subtly hinting to some other influental figure that the problem needs to be taken care of?

I get the impression that, as long as a lord can keep some good face towards his own superiors, he can get away with badly treating his underlings.

And committing ritual suicide to protest your superior isn't going to change the issue, unless multiple incidents happen and the boss of your boss starts to investigate.

So, tl;dr, how to deal with shitty bosses without killing oneself?

>Pic related when kaishin

Mantis have a dueling dojo in lore, I think it's called the Dojo of the Green Blade. They just don't have a mechanical aspect to it.

For one thing they can keep blackmailing your family till almost everyone is dead.

Ok this shit looks cool, how about posting a couple of PDFs?

>Can a Samurai make an appeal to the next person up the chain of command?
>Can a Samurai start up an investigation or tip of people who can?
>What about subtly hinting to some other influental figure that the problem needs to be taken care of?

These can all be done, but they have to be done carefully. Be too obvious and loud about it, and it's seen as a debacle that nobody else wants to get involved in, and it might even be seen as being disloyal or even a traitor.

>And committing ritual suicide to protest your superior isn't going to change the issue, unless multiple incidents happen and the boss of your boss starts to investigate.
That's usually the point. They either fix their shit, or someone higher than them notices and fixes it for them. At the highest level, it can also mean forcing them to reevaluate as they lose their best advisors and specialists. If your war plans are so shitty that your best generals and strategists are killing themselves, that's going to fuck up your plans.

Ask the Phoenix. Or the Moto. Better yet, ask them together.

Ooku, Basilisk, Lone Wolf & Cub, Samurai Executioner.