/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

So...was Apocalypse an otherkin game, too? I mean, Dreaming sure as fuck was, way more than Lost, where the whole point was getting your old life back and surviving what you were changed into, not embracing it.

Fuck Beast, of course.

Apocalypse is way more furry than Forsaken is, that's for sure at least.
What with the "always in the big wolf-man form", the proliferation of the fera, and how the half-animals are better than mankind, but brought down by their all too human flaws.

nWoD changing breeds has this mindset too. There is a reason it's almost universally shunned.

Redpill me on Beast. Why do everyone hates it?

Weird concept, horribly executed.

First draft was basically pic related

It has no real setting, no real purpose and is rather flawed in its execution.

Because of the tone the book takes in regards to its antagonist, because of the tone and comments the developer made, because it feels like its justifying abuse.

Because Aspel can't stop trying to defend it, and everyone dislikes Aspel.

Because it turned out to be terrible.

I'm not even in the anti-sjw crowd (which is one motivation for disliking it), and I still think it sucks a big one.

It set its characters up to be villain protagonists and didn't want to own up to it. The justifications made the whole thing unpleasant to read.

Give me some tasty examples. I don't want to buy a book just to laugh at it. I have D&D3.0 already.

And the real heros who actually did nothing wrong are portrayed as bad people.

Note: There was an early version on Kickstarter, which caused the biggest commotion. The final version tried to fix things in a narrow window of time. The results were mixed.

It went from child poisoner the game to child poisoner (ALSO RAPING YOU FOR YOUR OWN GOOD) the game, without actually bothering to make it, you know, fun.

Quoth Matt McFarland, the developer: "ugh you think Heroes did nothing wrong, you must be an MRA? #WhatabouttheHeroes #NotallHeroes"

It's basically a juvenile revenge fantasy about getting back at normal people but that also portrays the people trying to stop you from kidnapping, abusing and murdering people as unequivocally in the wrong.

Bad book, directionless, unrepentant jackass characters who try to excuse their bullshit, fighting villains who are only bad because the book says you wouldn't see the good ones, using powers that can be utter bullshit, and hamfistedly trying to force their way into the overall cosmology.
With no really interesting paraphernalia, or causes over which to fight or argue other than which ways to fuck with people to stay satiated.

However even worse than that, they have the outright gall to claim they're related to every other faction, and were given powers to suit this role as the "crossover splat".
While bar playing with characters who are just as gigantic an asshole as they are, they would likely be shunned by most other factions.

There is nothing good about being a nightmare monster who must at the very least scare people to not drive random people insane with spooky nightmares.

Also the first draft was very persecution-complex, otherkin-ey.

While also drawing some REALLY unflattering conclusions toward the groups it's supposedly analogizing.

"Oh, it's a game where you're the other being unfairly persecuted and bullied, retaking your power and your place in the world!"

"By ACTUALLY being the genuinely evil monster the Heroes accuse you of being, you know, just like all the actual gay and trans and whatnots are ACTUALLY child-raping monsters, the way Focus on the Family claims they are."

"Buy our game, marginalized idiots!"

The sad thing is, I know of at least a couple of people who bought it hook line and sinker, even after all of this was pointed out to them very clearly.

Also they promised you could be a dragon

Fuck Onyx Path

Could you find the source? The quote packs a bigger punch with a source, or at least a screencap.

Yeah, we haven't even gotten into the incredibly poorly designed assrape op powers "GAME BALANCE IS A MYTH" they get.

Or the fact that you're still some loser creepazoid human on the outside, rather than actually getting to play a real, you know, mythical monster type.

How would you do Beast to make it good?

Because the way I see it, it's just an unnecessary book that nobody wanted at this point.

Take every story that has a hero and a monster.

The hero was actually a horrible person violating the laws of nature and the monster was the good guy, Beowulf was basically hittler and murdered a family for no reason. Hercules was an actually trumped up nobody who murdered a bunch of innocent monsters to satisfy a quest that no one wanted done. Saint George was a religious zealot who killed a dragon for no reason than his religion, and what makes it worse is that each of them managed to trick the world into thinking they were right due to their insane self delusion and belief they were.

The rest of the books played with being the monster but trying to keep some humanity in it, this plays with "RAWR I'M A MONSTER AND THATS ALRIGHT FUCK YOU OPPRESSIVE BIGOTED HUMANS I'LL DROWN YOU IN MY ANCIENT POWERS".

>rather than actually getting to play a real, you know, mythical monster type
I mean, I would have tolerated a "physical illusion you can dispel", but not actually BEING the creature, bar certain power usage?

What a boner killer.

If you're going to remove the morality stat, then you might as well let them physically BE the monsters that ate their soul.

And because of it we'll never see Fury: The Scourge

Rewrite the concept to be people with a connection to the Astral, fighting for their beliefs.

Or make them unabashedly, unashamedly monsters. No oppression bullshit, no "woe is me", no decrying Heroes. You are the Dragon that eats knights, you are the Siren who lures men to their Dooms. Fucking own it.

>then you might as well let them physically BE the monsters that ate their soul.
At least we have Mummy.

To be honest just cut out Heroes entirely. Gets rid of the retarded justification/professional victim aspect.

Beasts cause Nightmares to grow their lairs and strengthen their position in their area's Hive. None of that teaching lessons bollocks.

Focus more on the Primordial aspect, where you can be a literal dragon or Titan.

Beast's skeleton is fine, it was just really terribly built on.

>Or make them unabashedly, unashamedly monsters. No oppression bullshit, no "woe is me", no decrying Heroes. You are the Dragon that eats knights, you are the Siren who lures men to their Dooms. Fucking own it.
This. The book should have started with this and moved on to how Beasts reconcile this with their human lives. What it did was moving straight to justifications.

AND they're now the designated "crossover" splat, "designed" to be "easily integrated" and "compatible" with all the other gamelines.

Except they're actually just immune to pretty much all of the other splats' 'outsiders stay out reeee' powers (they're immune to torment, they can tell someone's a changeling just by looking at them, they're immune to arcane and lunacy and pretty much every other defensive/hiding ability), while having broken, poorly designed powers that let them bypass pretty much all the other splats' weaknesses (vampires don't need to drink blood if they have a beast around, frinstance), the other (I'll just keep using 'splats' here) splats feel 'strangely accepting' of Beasts and want to let them in and be their new best friends and not attack them on sight...

...and their 'best buds' attitude is actually a condescending 'older sibling' who speaks down to all the other splats because beasts are ACTUALLY the real true original monsters that all others are pale imitations of and they should know their place which is under them hahaha.

Which makes it even harder to ban them when some asshole wants to play a Beast in a non-Beast game. Fucking hell.

Dunno. Probably like Mummy. You're an OP badass motherfucker but world doesn't need you. You have a position of great power (like dragons in Shadowrun perhaps), but every day you're losing your humanity, becoming the real monster. Maybe paint monsters as necessary evils somehow. Like actual bankers.

>(And, I note, once again Heroes smash their way in here and are all like "not all Heroes!" and "what about the Heroes?")

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?751112-Beast-the-Primordial-teaser-thread&p=18869444#post18869444

>Beast's skeleton is fine, it was just really terribly built on.

Yeah. The Lair stuff is great.

They just need something to DO.

projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/beast-the-primordial/

>they're immune to arcane and lunacy and pretty much every other defensive/hiding ability

Lunacy and Dissonance never affected non-humans though.

podcast.darker-days.org/e/darker-days-radio-episode-72/

Is a good summary as well

Well, I'm not an expert on werewolf or mage, I was trying to remember what they had. Point is, they're immune or just pierce pretty much everything that even applies to other supernaturals.

Yeah. Can't they see through Demon Covers? Or was that some other super?

See, this is good.

My thoughts went like this:
"You are a monster. Odds are you will hurt everyone you love and definitely hurt many other people. The world is better off if you die. You will, too. Either a torches and pitchforks mob or Buffy-the-Beast-slayer will tear you apart, but that's later. What do you do with your life now?"

It's an exact opposite of what the previous user said, but both are better than what we got. What did we get? Beats me...

>Game Balance is a Myth powers
What kind of shit are we talking about? I know about the "swing a skyscraper combo" but I didn't know there was more.

Perfect mind control

First Draft had the "You Are Meat" power which made a lot of weird implications about all the game lines

Kind imperfect really. Definitely worse than what Vampires or Mages get. Possibly worse than Changelings, but I know jack about them.

Fist draft of You Are Meat could take away your soul, even if you didn't have one. The only way to get it back was to someone get it back from the Astral. Most characters couldn't so it was an I Win button.

>Fist draft of You Are Meat
A bit misleading to call it a first draft. That implies there is a second.
They flat out deleted it, and there is enough overpowered crap left without it. Going for the one they actually removed makes it look like your argument for Beasts getting overpowered abilities was so weak you had to hit the trash bin looking for stuff to supported.

Why not go for some of the really strong abilities that are still in the book? Like their regeneration and armor powers.

I mentioned this last thread:

Beasts sate their Hunger when people fulfill their Virtue, Vices or Aspirations. Vices are a quick snack, Virtues are a full meal.

So, Beasts have a choice to make; They can set up situations where people are encouraged to follow their Virtue, setting themselves up as the bad guy so people can be better. Or, they can encourage Vice indulgence and get what they want, while making the world shittier.
If they don't sate their hunger, they starve to death.

I'd maybe put in something to do with Aspirations sating Hunger as well.

Heroes have either a Virtue or Vice which is "Slay Beasts". This makes them handy for Beasts to bait along as a constant source of nourishment, but obviously dangerous.

There are people that like Aspel. Their problem is that they've never found an Internet fight they didn't want to drag out and they don't actually finish their work. Other than those they're decent I guess.

>Buy our game, marginalized idiots

If nothing else, I can use Beast as starting point for a conversation about how the noble goal of heightened representation in media could end up leading to some seriously bad unintended messages, and how future steps at representation can try to avoid these missteps. I think it's ultimately fine for marginalized people to be presented as monsters and villlains, but tying that identity to their inherent monstrousness like the first draft attempts to do was maybe not the best idea. Clive Barker did it OK, though, Cabal and Nightbreed is basically Beast But Better.

No, it is Wyrd. Which is about the dark fate your pantheon is locked into a runic magic and shit.

>So will Deviant end up being the first actual splat with ZERO cosmology impact.
Vampire doesn't really have that much of an impact, either.

>Promethean comes pretty close, mind you. The Divine Fire and The Principle are both a bit of a shit, and no one seems to care that they exist EXCEPT prometheans.
You've got it completely backwards. The Principle cares only about Prometheans because it sees every one of them as a tabula rasa that it can mold into a human. The book even offers the possibility that the Principle is an older incarnation of the God-Machine. Who knows? It might even be its biggest subsystem, the one responsible for the creation of souls, which naturally springs to action when a being that should have a soul but doesn't appears.

Because even after the revision, the whole "Beasts are trying to impart lessons to humanity" schtick is nothing more than a lie that destructive, violent, degenerate monsters tell themselves to justify their abhorrent actions. And somehow, Heroes who want to put an end to it are crazy, not because the Beasts are not monsters after all or anything, but because they just are! They are Heroes, NOT Hunters, mom, get it right. They are going about the same thing, except TOO much, and that makes them WRONG. Get it?

If I remember correctly, Demon explicitly mentioned that demons/angels and parts of God Machine can't be detected even by supernatural means (without a specific perk). That's one of the reasons God Machine stuff feels so standalone and detached from other WoD books.

No. I'm certain there was one super who could see through covers with 0 effort.
And this terrified the Unchained.

I am pretty certain it is in the crossover chapter of Demon STG.

I have officially decided on my Scion character for 2e based on what I asked last night about the Algonquian and my wallet is ready to throw money at the Kickstarter.

I'm going to ask here again because it went unresponded in the last thread:

Are there mimics, or anything similar to mimics, in WoD? I have a great story idea and want to include them.

Hairy female hands are my fetish.

Pandorans from Promethean?

Huntsmen.

Pandorans

What's your idea

Or a random Hobgoblin from Changeling.

Found it: Quashmallim.
So I suppose it's fine then.

I'm playing a one on one campaign with a friend, and want to give him companions in interesting and creative ways. My plan is to give him an ancient chest guarded by a strange lock, which when he unlocks it becomes a party member.

Since it's a one-on-one with my best friend I'll let him get as magical realmy as he wants describing his characters, so this lets him improvise on how they look.

Can a Demon's cover be a Ghoul?

Make it a Hobgoblin then

The demon can drink vampire blood, and can probably mimic being bound to the vampire/having ghoul powers.

A Hobgoblin would be best. You make them the following way:
Make something bonkers. Call it a Hobgoblin.

Yeah, I thought that since Ghouls are much less changed than Wolf Bloods, and they can retain their powers as supers...

How broken would it be to allow any living being to become a Ghoul?

I wasn't really thinking the demon would have ghoul powers, more that if it knew what a ghoul did it could try to imitate it using embeds and exploits

I've got an idea for a new changeling kith for second edition but I am unsure how to word the blessing so it would make sense and not be longer than blessings of other kiths.

Splittwins, individual divided literally into two by True Fae during their Durance. Splittwins might be one human's optimisms and pessimism, id and superego, or logic and emotion, separated into two changelings that can act as one whole. Their blessing should probably let them act separate without breaking the mask.

And it is...?

Well thank fuck for that. Jotunblut was absolute trash, and I'm glad to see it go.

Demons can also get fucked over by Beasts' Family Resemblance, relatively easily actually. Look on page 89 of Beast.

Hey dudes, I've written up a Lex Magica for a Mage game set in Boston. post Nemean getting sent to mind-prison. Anything I've forgotten?

>beast and changeling
>main lines

They are more main than Second Sight. I guess he means they are their own full splat or something.

Newscion here still reading through Hero, what is PSP and why are Gods roaming around with a Sony handheld?

Whats the population ratio of beasts in any particular area?

Zero in all the games worth playing : ^)

As someone who also hasn't played Scion before, presumably it's a community abbreviation for something like "primary spellcasting purview"
I don't fuckin know

Take your average number of trans-people. Replace them with beasts.

Done.

Depends. More chambers = more Beasts as there's more options to expand their Lairs.

pantheon specific purview.

I should've been able to guess that.

Holy shit, jotunblut is awful. Why would you even want a human thrall as a Scion when you could just get some type of magical follower or something?

Which is why it is gone, I suspect.

Little amusing fact for anyone who cares; My friend knows Martin Shkreli and played a game of VTM with him. He played a tremere.

Is he as scummy in games as in public dealings?

Sounds WAY too powerful for a blessing. I like the concept, but you're essential getting to play two characters, which, even if done for a short while, is a power ripe for abuse. I'd either put a hefty price tag on it, which kinda goes against the concept of a blessing, or really tone it down. Honestly, doubling up like that sounds more like a Contract than a Blessing.

He plays Tremere :^)

Seems like the sort of game that dude would play.

What kind of blessing would you then give to the kith?

Well, he's an ebin memer, so of course he'd go on Veeky Forums and if he has an interest in video games or Veeky Forums games, he'd eventually find out about vtm/vtm:b and could perhaps become interested in it, so it's not that surprising.

I can ask my friend more about it if you want.

>Martin Shkreli
I had to google who he was.

I thought he was going to jail.

...

Maybe something that reinforces the "split into two" concept, but not quite so much that each half can run about separately. One idea is that, given a relatively safe environment (i.e. not being currently gunned down), you may take two extended actions at the same time with no penalty. If they split, the twins should be appropriately powered down (maybe lose Skills or have very weak attributes?) I just don't like the concept of two fully-fledged changelings of one mind running about. Just feels too OP. But then again, I might be wrong.