How special should PCs be?
Even in "It's all up to you to save the world" stories in books/tv/whatever, there's usually at least a few other people who aren't villains who have comparable power levels, doing their own thing somewhere else. Are your PCs true snowflakes, or are there other people who are as great as them who just have nothing to do with them because of circumstance?
Well, to be PCs, they should be somewhat exceptional, or else someone else why would people need the PCs to do something they already have capable people for?
I would say it depends on what power level the PCs are starting at:
At level one, they're probably not so special, maybe something slightly out of the ordinary or just above NPC power. This would be a Private in very general ranking.
Around level five, they should be making a name for themselves as a generally tough guy, someone who someone else might have heard of in the local area. This is folk hero status; a level for a leader of other men. Probably close to Sergeant if we're continuing the theme.
Around level ten, they should be somewhat exceptional, having seen some shit, done something noteworthy, and probably started fleshing out a character theme; the character probably has a song written about them that's all the range at the most travelled taverns. This is Captain, a leader of leaders.
At fifteen and higher, they'd probably be considered special snowflakes and mary sues by any metric had they not either started at that level or grown into it. This character probably has books written about their exploits, if not having penned a few themselves as either autobiographies or studies into what they've encountered or their own areas of interest. Possibly being nominated as a champion to a powerful patron like a deity. Now we're in General territory.
Specialness increases as power increases, but someone pretty exceptional at the start would probably need to start at a higher level. Half-Angel Half-Demon Half-Dragons would probably have a much higher entry-level than an apprentice wizard just learning to cast his first spells. A roguish and adventurous nobleman duelist is probably starting off a bit higher than a street kid thief.
Specialness has an entry-level; you build to an appropriate power level, or you grow into it.
> It's "Quest giver much more powerful than you needs PCs to complete a world saving task" adventure
Depends on the setting and style of the game. Sometimes the 'specialness' is just that they're the player characters, so they carry the same narrative weight that the cast of a story does and the action tends to revolve around them.
Other times it's an in universe degree of 'special', that they all have a certain power that isn't shared by most people or some such.
And then some games do both. There are people in the world with PC tier power, but actual player characters are the only ones lugging around that degree of narrative weight that warps the story and setting around their actions.
Elminster's a busy guy. Those waifus won't fuck themselves.
It depends on the game style and setting. Games like D&D lean towards snowflakiness and I would be really interested in some gritty, low-fantasy stuff. I'm thinking Asian Peasants Rebellion the game.
Unless you're playing "nameless peasant #12 who gets bossed around and massacred 10 minutes into the first battle", the PCs are still going to be equal to everyone else or more special.
If we're talking about D&D, even level 1 PCs are a cut above your average city guard. However, they aren't anything special. Any properly trained soldier could take them on and win.
At level 5, they become powerful enough to be noticeable. They won't be the best adventurer's in the kingdom, but they are exceptional people who various factions will seek to court as pawns in their schemes.
Around level 10, they become true heroes. Instead of just raiding dungeons, saving a few villages and getting used as political tools, they organise expeditions into lost cities, defend whole towns from enemy armies and manipulate other people for their own political goals. They aren't saving the world, but they are saving kingdoms and generally making sure nothing bad happens.
By level 15, barely anyone can compete with them. They do things that shouldn't be possible, not through Mary-sueness, but through sheer badassery. They venture into other planes of existence, battle the most deadly foes of civilisation and are probably in charge of political entities themselves. They don't have to save the world, but they could.
By level 20, they are the peak of (supernaturally-augmented) human achievement. They've probably invaded the Nine Hells and won, or something like that. All those liches and dragons and things are scared of them and they're probably emperors. Beyond 20th level, they're bordering on godhood, not even human anymore.
It depends like fuck. One of my favorite games is Magical Burst, where the PCs are the only ones (in their general region, usually aside from a few NPCs) who between them are doing an amount of saving that far exceeds their capacities, and they're often literally one in a million. Comparable power levels are often eclipsed as the story goes on.
On the other hand, I also like games like Shadowrun or Unknown Armies, where you're dirt on the ground – but you can become powerful dirt, and interact with a level of shit that other people never even have to see.
I don't recall ever playing a game where the PCs are true snowflakes in the sense that nobody in the world is of comparable power level aside from villains. If I did, I'd want to do it anime style where each player has a specific gimmick power that they could extend, which probably means it'd have to use FATE. Even then, the PCs wouldn't start as the most powerful in the world, but just have a unique potential and be able to grow into it.
Fuck now I want to run that game.
Honestly, I've never really liked the
>Players are The Heroes because they're just that much more powerful.
paradigm. Plus, it makes it harder to restrain murderhobo impulses if they're the strongest around.
Usually, even in my "save the world" sorts of games, the PCs are the heroes because they're in the right place at the right time to stop things before they spin too widely out of control, and luck, perception, initiative, and persuasiveness mean a hell of a lot more than being able to throw the biggest fireball, shoot the biggest gun, or swing the sword the hardest.
So I'll often make the PCs narratively special, but not mechanically special. They're not (usually) superhumanly powerful. What they are is they're the ones who notice the Big Bad Plan, and are, by apparent serendipity that has the GM hand behind it, in the right place at the right time to deal with it.
Do you use narrative points/bennies/whatever to empower them, or is there just enough narrativium sloshing around to make them always there when they're needed?
I usually play two extremes, most of the time when we play some sort of sci-fi or darker fantasy or lets say WoD my players are dirt. Literary dirt, small fish trying to survive in ocean full of big bad sharkos.
But from time to time i do some sort of high fantasy, exalted kind of shit where my players almost from the start are godlike and i let them just go batshit. Its fun. Most of the time.
So i hate to fucking regurgitate this awful meme but it depends on the setting
The PCs can become special through the things they do, not because I gave them 8 different kinds of plot armor right out of the gate.
>Do you use narrative points/bennies/whatever to empower them,
Not often. VERY occasionally in a dramatic moment, but even that's pretty rare.
> or is there just enough narrativium sloshing around to make them always there when they're needed?
There's enough narrativium sloshing around to make sure that they always have the clues available to them (if not always in plain sight) so that they have a chance of making a reasonable next step. There's also usually a bit more sloshing around clogging up the vision and giving other problems to people who are mechanically higher up in the food chain than the PCs, if it's the sort of game where the players are expected not just to identify the threat, but take it out personally. My latest completed campaign was more of a sci-fi investigator one, and the end "fight" was a sideshow, as the real challenge was luring the badguy conspiracy away from their stronghold into the ambush that they set up. 4 "ordinary" soldiers (they were genetically modified supermen, but in setting, every soldier of the Filalien empire has extensive genetic modification) just blew them apart with hypersonic rifles.
Err, this post is meant in response to , not my own. Ewps.
>restrain murderhobo impulses
Why do that?
>to be PCs, they should be somewhat exceptional, or else someone else why would people need the PCs to do something they already have capable people for?
That's the setting. Nearly everyone is capable to a degree that adventurers have to compete, lowest bidder style, to get quests. "I can do it for 4,000 gold!" "Well, I'll do it for 3,000 and the provisions needed!"
Because I as a GM view my first responsibility to worldbuild, and it's stupid as shit. Society has to be able to defeat random bands of 4-6 psychopaths, or you wouldn't have civilization in the first place. If a powerful group of adventurers can wander into a good sized city and murder everyone and take their shit just for giggles, then you would never have concentrations of wealth and population in the first place. Same goes for very powerful monsters.
So unless I'm running a fantasy Mad Max, there are mechanisms in place to stop that kind of thing. Depending on the tone, they'll take a number of different forms, from things like
>There are just a lot of high level characters running around
>There are very powerful spells that are only castable with a shit ton of preparation time and/or expensive materials giving defenders large advantages
>Most towns have a lot of one use items for serious dangers
>Mechanically, you just can't get that powerful relative to a "standard" warrior
>etc.
But there are always there. Allowing a game to descend into a world where the party can murder and run as they please is absurd, and worse, it tends to a kind of game that doesn't actually go anywhere.
At least in Magi all red headed people are plot relevant because what it means in the setting. Alibaba is a lot more of a snowflake - born a street urchin, turns out to be a prince, chosen to be the magi's champion, has the only treasure that refuses to let its owner use another treasure, etc. Then again Sinbad is even worse.
Still one of the better shonen with its Nazi wizards, God as the BBEG, and consistent enough magic.
In the name of worldbuilding, I give you this.
That's quite nice, I'll admit.
A lot of fun can be had working backwards from 'facts about RPGs' to a working and holistic world.
God bless you, Gygax, Alignment Languages turn the whole place upside down.
>I as a GM view my first responsibility to worldbuild
That gm right there
I don't want an epic destiny, and ancient and prestigious ancestry, a powerful unique artifact, or even to be some special snowflake home brew race. I'm content to hang back, be a side character, step forward to help the party when called on.
All I ask is the strength to kick a bunch of ape men to death.
Pray not for the gains to kick ape men, but for the chance to prove your ability to kick.
>ape men
Buddy, we're in Veeky Forums now. You can call them niggers and no one will get in your hair for that.
>not playing classic D&D
You go crawling through hexes, the DM rolls some die, you need to find out if you're going to fuck with 144 cavemen in case they've got treasure.
I always loved the idea of adventurer eggs. I should do that for the next time I play D&D
I feel like they should be their own race, with stats and the lot.
PCs already have their own stats; they get level progression like no one else, and all the attendant bonuses. It would be too much to stat out all the races in PC and NPC version.
PCs are free agents. They tend to start from the dirt and grow, making their own connections and networks that give them opportunities but eventually tie their hands. Then they become kings and hire other up-and-comers to do the work that they can no longer do for political reasons.
Circle of life.
I think there's no one right answer, even with a given setting, or a given system. It varies, and should vary, from campaign to campaign. If anything, this is one of the most important decisions that a GM can make about their campaign, and generally one that you want to inform the players of, if not make the decision with collaboratively with them.
I like characters becoming special through casuality, accident or manipulation.
For instance one of mine got guilt-tripped into becoming a hero because she's invulnerable and very slightly superstrong. Despite being an untrained, 90 pounds, 5 foot teenager she's doing well through luck and abusing the opponent's dismissal that a skeleton midget may be able to stop them.
Instead of giving your characters all the skills, give them one or two plus a couple flaws and really ride those to success through creativity and good ol' heroic stubborness. You'll have much more fun.
>Sargent and captain
Eh, I'd say more along the line of master Sargent and colonel. Their is a lot of Sargents and captains
No more special then anyone else really. They just have a bigger will, and unlike the rest, will go to the greatest ends to make a way, or die trying.
He's hardly a that GM
However, your first and only responsibility is to make sure your players are having fun.
sergeant
I like the idea that Clutch Mates almost never adventure together, and immediately separate in search of other Adventurers to Party with. An Adventurer can always feel it when one of their Clutch Mates die. If their current party is undesirable (such as having a higher ratio of humans to Adventurers), or their quest is personally unfulfilling (it's aimless, or the goal is dubious, or the final boss is shaping up to be really disappointing in the strength or wealth department) so they'll give an excuse to leave and check out their dead Clutch mates' party. If it has a better ratio of Adventurer to Human, or the final boss is wealthier, they'll stick around with this party and help complete their quests, or go back to their old party, or even find a new party. Rarely will two Adventurers show up to a dead Clutch Mates' party.
This is why previously unmentioned siblings show up to join their dead family's party.
If I remember correctly, in D&D a PC is considered to have remarkable talent from the get go at level 1, being notably more powerful than an average person. But how much you play it up is really up to the GM. Especially in grittier games where you start at the complete bottom of the ladder.
>as a GM view my first responsibility to worldbuild
Your first responsibility is to enable the players to have fun. Worldbuilding is only a responsibility inasmuch as it serves that goal. It's primarily something that GMs do just because we like to.
I was thinking of pitching a dark fantasy setting where a wave of dark magic started dominating everything it touched except for a few lucky people, either reducing people to mindless zombies or more often than not killing them.
Suffice to say, the people that survive are either pissed beyond imagining or fighting for their life or both.
Good news is it's not a repeat event, and enough people with magical knowledge survive that they believe it can be reversed if the original caster is found and the spell the mystery enemy used is modified to have the opposite effect.
You're not just the PCs because you're the best people for the job- you're the PCs because you're the ONLY people for the job that you know to still be alive. I was considering having them come across other groups of wandering PCs, but in the end they have to stick it out until enough magic gets brought together to fix everything or the 'plague' ends.
Sure, it's been done before, but who cares? The only problem is coming up with intelligent enemies for the party to face that don't make them lose their faith in the remainder of civilization.
My setting's using a semi-homebrew and doesn't have levels so idk how well it meshes, but...
All the PCs (and their NPC sidekicks) are experts in their field. They're a gifted and experienced hunter, a trained pit fighter, a smooth talking noble heir, etc. They've been put into the situation they're in and given the gear they have, because they're expected to handle the plot on their own.
Thing is none of them are supernaturally skilled. I'm using the same stat and skill trees for NPCs, PCs and hostile sentients, so any well trained veteran swordsman can kill my pit fighter with a lucky roll.
It's technically /v/ but I always really liked the concept behind the kind of low-fantasy design shown in games like Legend of Grimrock where you start off as a naked lvl 1 loser with a rock and some mushrooms.
With how the game is designed every level is a major achievement and even finding a sword is actually a major achievement. The kind of campaign where if you actually invested money into a standard adventurer's kit you'd actually have a severe advantage over some people.
I always wanted to run a campaign like that but in practice you just end up with a lot of tedium and bonuses that don't feel like bonuses (because when the enemy has AC 12, having a +1 doesn't really do anything to make you feel empowered).
Path Of Exile has you wash up naked onto a beach and then pick up a stick/pointy rock.
Of course, your enemies are basically just slow zombies and mudcrabs at that point, so you still experience victory.
It's your game. Make your magic items unique in some way. My magic items include a shield that can deflect cannonballs (but makes you suffer greater injuries while holding it) and a living sword that has to consume a pound or so of meat every day or it tries to eat its wielder.
Upper-middle badasses is where I try to put them. I think it's good for the players to get at least some kind of reputation fairly early, if only to have an in-story reason for them to be talking to Big Important People all the time.
But it's equally important to have people the PCs hear stories of. Ancient wizards who need to be treated with, shadowy master assassins that they hear might have been sicced on them, other groups of adventurers whose deeds they hear of. Shit like that is what gives a setting a sense of danger and wonder.
So, I mean, the PCs are almost always going to be the biggest badasses in the room. But it's important that they be aware of (and occasionally have to deal with) the even bigger ones that are out there.
Every bartender in every town in every kingdom in every setting I've ever ran was a retired adventurer, usually 5-10 levels higher than the PCs' starting level. They're just too old to keep delving dungeons and saving maidens, but still strong enough to give them whipper-snappers a thumping if they go causing trouble in their tavern.
I like you and your idea. Can I play with you?
>Well, to be PCs, they should be somewhat exceptional, or else someone else why would people need the PCs to do something they already have capable people for?
...Why would the PCs not be those capable people?
Why would the PCs need someone to tell them to do shit?
Also, if you're going by D&D, at level 1 they should be pretty damn exceptional.
>Unless you're playing "nameless peasant #12 who gets bossed around and massacred 10 minutes into the first battle"
That is who you would be playing, yes. Or, it's who you could be playing.
Depends on the group.
Some people really really want some sort of epic destiny, while others relish playing Joe-Bob the dirt farmer.
And do clutchmates come out as the same class? Would explain the revolving door of clerics.
This guy gets it.
The relative power level of your PCs depends entirely on the type of game you want to run.
For example; there's a world of difference between running a game of street level chummers in Shadowrun caught up in something bigger than them and running a game where the players already start decently connected and well funded.
Your PCs will always be exceptional in some respect - you don't get into the Runner business by being normal - but the mood is going to be vastly different when most of the party can't even afford their own car.
>Your first responsibility is to enable the players to have fun
If the players only find fun in being murderhobos, then I don't want them in my campaign.
Then you are a non-compatible group, and you shouldn't try to 'force' them to do what you want, you just agree to not play together.
That goes without being said.
It's a lesson a shocking amount of Veeky Forums really needs to learn, though.
I like to have at least one other Adventurer group around at a decent level. When you're level 1 someone still needs to take care of those trolls. Maybe you walk into a town and notice the bounty board is pretty much empty aside from a few pest extermination missions, you talk to the Innkeeper and she says that Generic Group Leader and his Band of Fucksticks came through and did most of the bounties already, so PCs can take a day to relax and prepare.
>My latest completed campaign was more of a sci-fi investigator one, and the end "fight" was a sideshow, as the real challenge was luring the badguy conspiracy away from their stronghold into the ambush that they set up. 4 "ordinary" soldiers (they were genetically modified supermen, but in setting, every soldier of the Filalien empire has extensive genetic modification) just blew them apart with hypersonic rifles.
That GM
>Because I as a GM view my first responsibility to worldbuild, and it's stupid as shit.
RETARDED that GM.
Didn't see this since I had gone to bed. I'm gonna turn the idea over in my head a bit more. I'm thinking I might go full generic anime and do it as a "you died and woke up in a new world" thing. Will probably do a gamefinder post. Email is [email protected] if you want me to let you know when it happens.
Never post your email in a computer-legible format, user.
Google has a good spam filter. I'm not worried about robotic solicitors.
Depends on the setting.
Also depends on the system. Something like D&D and to a greater extent Exalted has players acting eventually as demigods, with loads of special snowflake powers. Something like Dark Heresy, you're shit. Hell, you might be better than the average mook overall or you might be an expert in something, but you're not special. You're still going to die easily.
More than likely, yes.
Also, I feel like each Adventurer has a chance to be born with a vestige of their draconic heritage. More often than not, they are identical to a human, but sometimes, they are born with an aberration, such as horns, a dragon's tail, scales, or even a dragon dick. The more severe cases may look like a dragonborn or tiefling.
>vestiges
That takes away from the background, imo. I like it when they're identical to the demihuman races except for their lust for gold and disregard for common morality. It's only when they start gathering power and taking prestige classes that people can see at a glance that they are Adventurers and not run-of-the-mill bastards.
Exactly. There's a clutch of Fighters, Clutch of Rogues, Clutch of Wizards, etc.
Which is why they rarely form parties together. They need to seek out more balanced parties.
Depends on the setting, it's a major plot point in my pf game I run. The players are gestalts and run into the odd NPC gestalt now and again but they only began appearing after the God wars and all the deities upped sticks and left. I keep leaving a few little hints here and there about why this is.
"It depends" has to be the worst answer to 90% of questions on Veeky Forums.
OP clearly set it up as a broad comparative, and pointed out that even in the most special of cases there's usually someone else of similar standing. And even if he didn't, "It depends, here are the obvious extremes" is a pointless post, especially after the first 5 times someone has said it.
>PCs are free agents.
I actually find it funny how that is usually at odds in a game like L5R unless you specifically roll Ronin characters. Unlike your classical fantasy everything is REALLY heavy on honor and glory, duty to your master and family, etc. Characters need to develop some serious double-think by default simply to preserve face.
Missing the point there, omae. He's saying that PCs can go and do the things that other people can't because of politics. That holds true even in L5R, and maybe especially in L5R. You'll never meet any of those overpowered Wick wank characters, because there all off being clan champions (which means paperwork), while the PCs, as low-ranking samurai, can go quietly talk to their equivalents in the Lion clan and stop the self-important old men from marching on Crane, while all the hoity-tioties sit around drinking tea and doubletalking each other.
Heck, unless you're specifically playing Imperial bureaucrats or something, no one really cares if the 1 Honour bushi stabs some 0.5 honour 19th son of a secondary clan at a brothel. By definition, you're beneath notice.