Last thread: mediafire.com
>lots of stuff from 4e and previous editions
mediafire.com
>some other 4e stuff can be found here (9th link from the top)
Question of the thread: if you've played more than one edition of L5R, what would you say were the biggest additions and changes between said editions?
I ask because I see a lot of people say they've only read 1st edition and equally as money who never read anything other than 4th edition.
3e/4e player here, I feel like one of the bigger changes between editions were how schools were designed and the mechanical benefits from schools.
In 3E, school progression generally went like this:
>r1: bonus to action, technique
>r2: Second bonus to action, technique
>r3: first bonus *2, stuff
>r4: Second bonus *2, stuff
>r5: First bonus *3, maybe, stuff.
With stuff/technique being the equivalent of a 4e technique. While the rank ones are similar (but not identical) across both lines, the reduction in those bonuses generally reduced the impact of schools on the power level of characters.
Of course, within the umbrella of school design comes probably the biggest difference, that between ronins 4e and 3e. Going from schools to techniques usually linked to organizations was a massive change, as without GM Fiat it meant jumping from organization to organization (which is probably, in part, why ronin weren't in the main schools section). However, it did provide a number of easily taken techniques for designing ronin schools, and eventually a generic ronin school was created.
A more minor change was that there was generally more setting information in 3E, in part because 4e was pushing the "rokugan your way" idea. In 3E core, you had information on the clan's imports/exports, population numbers, and even a timeline.
There's a big difference between only reading one edition and only playing one edition. I've read material from all four editions and even some from the d20 abomination, but I've only ever played 4e.
>the reduction in those bonuses generally reduced the impact of schools on the power level of characters.
I consider this to be a positive. It means that choosing a school for fluff reasons doesn't limit your character too much, even if you go against the school's grain.
>yfw a player really thinks that his character can learn TERoiE within the span of a single Winter Court
>Oh boy... Our GM would have had a field day with you.
This is one of the problems with these sorts of events: different players and groups had very different perspectives on things. There were several ways to justify things (character has been learning it for a while prior to winter court but only after spending the XP have they full mastered it for example) and technically none of them are wrong. No ruling was made prior to the start of the event so pretty much every interpretation started out equally valid.
Your GM's way is not the only way or inherently the right way.
Pretty apt comparison for any massive group event with multiple factions. More Players requires more staff which means more conflicts.
>Your GM's way is not the only way or inherently the right way.
I'm just saying that you are really visiting Min/Maxland if you want to acquire a kata like TERoiE in the middle of a Winter Court. I mean, these techniques don't grow on trees, and learning them is not, like, spending 6 hours in the dojo with a random Crane chap who happens to know the kata.
This actually sounds much worse for me (YMMV is in effect tho) than shaving off a single xp with Advantage tricks.
There any consensus on if the generic school could act as the main school for ronin, with all the individual ranks acting like alternate paths?
It's recommended as an option, so there's no reason it couldn't work. Some of the generic techs aren't great, but that's what the paths are for.
It's easier to allow the generic ronin paths as ronin techs. Despite half the fanbase hating this as much as the original designers, it makes ronin bushi very much playable, which is exactly what they should be.
IIRC it goes like this:
1E: the original edition, a high-lethality mid to late '90s system where going first is king. Colorful but really needs a strong GM hand to rein it in.
2E: the double statted d20 one. The power level is toned down from 1E and things are generally grimmer. I've heard this one has better editing due to WotC's involvement, which I can buy because 1E's editing can get really bad.
3E: back fully into AEG's hands, this one makes the system broader and more encompassing. System mastery was always part of the game but this one actually allows talking about legit builds with new options like kata, all the new schools. High power level.
4E: an attempt at consolidating and streamlining the rules. Power level is taken down a notch from its 3E heights. Decoupling from the metaplot with options to play at any era.
How did you get to play a plot-protected character?
Played all but 3rd.
Feel like is largely correct.
1st has a lot of spark, but is rough around the edges. Still has the best source books, in terms of sheer idea fuel.
2nd basically reigns in, polishes, and summarizes 1st, then proceeds to pump out source books crammed with filler.
3rd, from what I can tell, is OP as fuck. I haven't played it, so I can't know for sure.
4th I have mixed feelings about. It seems another reign in, summarize, and polish effort, and the overarching system feels better than ever before, but the dissonance between system and setting is stronger. The schools not just appear weaker than ever before, but thematically uninteresting and inappropriate, and the same can be said for many advantages/disadvantages.
For example - take the standard Scorpion Ninja schools in 2nd and 4th.
2nd: Add stealth skill to TN to be hit, significant stealth bonus while blowing shit up to create distractions
4th: Don't lose honour for doing ninja shit
I basically run 4th ed with 1st/2nd ed schools.
Did we all play the same 2nd edition? Because 2e also came with a bunch of core rules changes that cause the game to be a clusterfuck of confusion, failure, and utter nonsense.
The 4e School does a lot more than just reduce the penalties for doing dishonorable ninja shit.
It's got significant bonuses to stealth, and an entire chain of sneak attack buffs that end in a Shosuro being able to kill with impunity.
I allow it, but I also actually understand the place of ronin in samurai fiction.
L5R has always been a bit of a clusterfuck, to be fair
It's endearingly awkward
I was just comparing the first technique, but yes, 4th gets better at stealth kills - 2nd gets interesting and not completely reliant on stealth.
My point is more that the 4th edition school is boring and thematically inappropriate (why would a shosuro ninja care about honour) than that it's weak. The first rank Saboteur is actively encouraged to create distractions and disappear - the rank one 4th edition fucker gets to be more honourable.
And even if a 4th edition school started getting interesting halfway through (many of them seem to not develop much of a personality until the very last rank), I'm not sure I've ever seen a character reach rank 4, let alone rank 5.
I mean it's a setting and system that actively encourages you to retire, pass the torch, see your effect on history.
4e toned down reliance on Techs, so of course they're not as drastic as they used to be.
>I mean it's a setting and system that actively encourages you to retire, pass the torch, see your effect on history.
Only, not? Pendragon is a system with very definite ways for you to establish a lineage and play out the lives of your character's descendants. That's never been one of L5R's strengths
No, he only gets to keep his 1.5/10 honor if he uses sneaky ninja skills in service to the Scorpion clan. Using them for any other purposes still loses honor, and they get stealth bonuses as part of the same Technique.
Older editions had clan specific honor charts, 4e boiled it down to some rank 1 techs altering the now-universal honor chart.
Do remember Atsushi was a strong traited non-min/maxed premade duelist who started with Air 3(Awareness 4), Void 4, Iaijutsu 4 (no emphasises). Pretty much max stats you could have as a duelist for the XP that pre-made and player created PCs could have. He did not have any of the advantages or the Kata normally used to make a duelist awesome. Most player created characters started out with inferior traits in exchange for advantages and Kata.
XP was originally supposed to be a rare reward for good rp. Weekly XP was not planned to be given out and characters were supposed to be mostly static.
This was messed up when the Crab AGM started handing out weekly XP which forced the other AGMs to give out weekly XP also. All the AGMs then started giving out 5 XP per real world week.
Atsushi only needed 5 XP to max out Iaijutsu and 4 more to get both of Iaijutsu's emphasises. At the end of week 4 I had pretty much maxed out my ability to duel outside of Kata/Advantages (which it turned out I could not purchase) and had an excess 5xp. Where as the player created characters had all gained enough XP in the same time to improve a Trait from 3 to 4 removing my Trait advantage.
When I sent in my application, I made a note in the section that asked which Clans I preferred and whether or not I wanted to play a pre-made or player created character. In this note I mentioned that I'd like to play Daigotsu Atsushi if possible. Staff said okay since the character was on their list of pre-made characters and I got him even though Spider was my second choice clan.
According to the staff of the event, when the event was being organized and the pre-made characters were being selected all characters were to be expendable Daigotsu Atsushi and Bayushi Atsuto (the two characters who ended up having plot armor) included.
Atsushi's XP version caught pretty much everyone off guard as there seemed to have been a story team/design team/brand management disconnect somewhere.
That's something FFG could do to really leave their mark on the game instead of ruining it with specialty dice and expensive peripherals.
I'm.hoping that they keep Roll and Keep just to use it to keep the trademark.
I don't think that would work well outside of a single-clan game. You already have to contrive reasons for characters from different clans to stick together, doing that while jumping generations would be really difficult.
Doing it in a single-clan game is easy enough though. Don't need special rules to work out how a character's life will go and then insert a new character 20 years later.
Something like the Great Pendragon Campaign could be doable, I think.
Kharmic ties can cross clans, user.
Then why not just use the rules for kharmic ties as they are presented? They've got mechanics, and there are mechanics for inheritances.
Because since karmic ties and legacies play a larger role in that type of campaign, it'd be fun to expand on it more and have a book or chapter giving advice and ideas.
Use your imagination, user.
Those two sentences don't go together very well.
This is a long shot, but yo S-Dawg, the usual group of faggots is waiting for the GM.
>The power level is toned down from 1E
2e fucked the basic roll and keep mechanic by switching to roll skill, keep attribute.
>and things are generally grimmer
1e had Bearers of Jade's flavour of grim darkness. 2e had the Anvil of Despair produce a "red paste".
Has anybody got the rules for the Imperial Archive cut minor clans that were posted a while ago?
I got you fampai.
My thanks.
...
>Kitsuki no Holmes
Fucker.
So I figured this would be the most relevant thread to ask this question:
What are some good Samurai movies where I can pull some inspiration for a samurai character?
Also looking for good samurai movies in general.
I think aside from usual classics, 47 Ronin is actually pertinent to L5R because it has more fantasy going on. Kinda weird to see Clan Scorpion acting that way, though.
Honestly just go look up a list of "best" samurai movies on IMDB or something, there's usually not much variation of what people will recommend.
I'll look into 47 Ronin, didn't think much about the more recent movies.
Fair enough, thanks for the help.
they obviously go ronin, user
Which reminds me - how WOULD a white devil character get treated in Rokugan if he wasn't part of an invading army or something? I mean, you end up washed ashore or something. Could you realistically end up as part of some family?
Look up Infamy ranks in the core book. They might be able to manage if wearing a basket and able to disguise their accent, or a single court might hold them if they're a diplomat.
The Mantis, Unicorn, and Tortoise clans might be able to work something out with them on the down low. Some samurai miiiiiiight choose to eject them from the country nonlethally out of compassion. Most of the time, you're fucked.
There are gaijin that have ended up allied to various houses, from Alhundro Cornejo to Rama Singh (later [i]Yoritomo[/i] Singh) But in most cases if they don't get their head cut off by xenophobic Rokugani they're going to end up like Magda in Ryoko Owari at best - a curiosity.
If they can pull off being non-threatening and non-offensive (And don't encounter a tightass right away), they might be able to survive in a "fourth-class citizen" kind of way. If someone gets offended or feels threatened by them, they're dead. If they meet someone too tight on Imperial Law, they're dead. If they can make friends in high places, they might be able to get out or possibly join a clan under false pretenses. Being dead or dangerously close to dead is far more likely though.
I would completely avoid it. Adding tangible foreign nations and shit just diluted L5R in the long run if you ask me.
>If they meet someone too tight on Imperial Law, they're dead
Emerald Magistrate charter says otherwise.
Emerald Magistrates are not the only source of law. Regular ass clan magistrates enforce the Emperor's laws when it's not an inter-clan issue. The Emerald Magistrates are like the FBI. They don't get involved except across borders and when lesser jurisdictions are too muddy to deal with it.
And frankly, it doesn't take a dedicated lawperson to deal with a random gaijin. Unless he's got friends in high places or special legal permission, literally any samurai from the lowliest ronin to a Clan Champion could kill him and suffer no repercussions.
There's a prevailing theory that the whole reason AEG had Meranne and Thrane completely wiped out eventually was simply to get people to shut the fuck up about them.
Are you referring to the "visiting dignitaries" line? Because the version I'm reading makes it pretty clear that it means one clan's dignitaries in a hostile clan's territory. The Crane could ask the Emerald Magistrates to protect their ambassador to the Crab if they felt that the Crab might attack them. It's not there to protect gaijin and it's definitely not there to protect random unimportant gaijin.
Also Unless the gaijin number more than two and doing something "blasphemous" or are plotting a large scale crime, it's not in the Emerald Magistrate jurisdiction and is handled by local authorities. Incidental law enforcement isn't in their wheelhouse, and a gaijin washing up on shore is very incidental.
He probably means the "residents who are not native to Rokugan" part in section 2.2
Although I still think that's only for special cases, like actual dignitaries who claim to have something important, or desert Moto coming in from the sands or something like that. It seems unlikely that a random Gaijin would get an audience with an Emerald Magistrate, and it seems even more unlikely that the magistrate would issue anything other than an arrest to said random gaijin. Giving them travel papers means trusting them to actually go where the papers say they're going, and then expecting them to actually arrive safely in an extremely xenophobic country. More likely they'd escort them out under armed guard or kill them.
Even that doesn't mean anything given that the charter was written in the second century and the imperial edict banning all gaijin was issued in the 6th century. An Emperor's decree overrides everything else, which means Hantei VIII overrides the charter.
Which is also how Rama Singh managed to become a legit member of the Mantis Clan. He had Imperial decrees from both Toturi II and Toturi III that allowed him to hang around, and his active attempts at learning Rokugani language and bushido were what cemented his place with the Mantis.
Honestly it would be interesting to see if Rokugani would ever adopt any western fighting techniques for a foreigner, but considering some are still butthurt about Niten I don't really ever see it happening.
The Unicorn use strange gaijin fighting styles, but nobody is too butthurt about it because everything they do is strange and gaijin influenced anyway.
It should be noted that Singh was already a Kshatriya which was more or less a Samurai equivalent.
Clan magistrates deal with clan laws, and are empowered to investigate crimes, administrate tariffs, and collect taxes. Clan laws just don't cover foreigners.
Emerald magistrates are common enough that there's at least one assigned to every major city, territory, and geographical region, with possibly a dozen plus yoriki serving under them.
In any case, if you're playing a gaijin within Rokugan, you plan for a furtive and well-disguised adventure with inside help, and/or you get some serious backing. Colonies is easier, particularly when Rokugani are dealing and learning with the IK remnants already.
>It seems unlikely that a random Gaijin would get an audience with an Emerald Magistrate, and it seems even more unlikely that the magistrate would issue anything other than an arrest to said random gaijin. Giving them travel papers means trusting them to actually go where the papers say they're going, and then expecting them to actually arrive safely in an extremely xenophobic country.
... Even saying travel papers without thinking of an escort is just silly.
>For the most part, it is unlikely that Rokugani PCs will learn the Schools presented here. They are provided mainly for the use of GMs who want to present Ivory Kingdoms NPCs. However, there are circumstances in which these could be player character Schools – for example, if the GM allows a player to run a kshatriya character who swears fealty to a clan (like Rama Singh in the canonical history, who becomes Yoritomo Singh), or if a Rokugani PC becomes a student of a Sainika fighter.
>The Rajya ke Varisa are a group of Crab, Unicorn, and Mantis samurai who study the fighting techniques of the Ivory Kingdoms kshatriya and find ways to use them in conjunction with Rokugani combat techniques. The gaijin-turned-Mantis known as Yoritomo Singh also contributes to the organization’s training, seeking to preserve some aspects of his former culture. So far they have managed to devise only one technique, albeit one of significant value.
>A generation ago the Lion Clan came into possession of a most curious gaijin artifact, one of those things called a “book.” But this was not simply any book, but rather a copy of De Bellis Yoditorum: an ancient treatise on the many tactics and strategies employed by the Yodotai, a vast and ruthless culture of warriors that lies far north and west of Rokugan.
>Although the Lion have considerable appreciation for the information in the book, its existence has only enhanced their disgust toward cultures other than their own. Nevertheless, they have carefully studied everything within, training special units of their soldiers to employ and to counter the gaijin tactics on the field of battle. Some among the Lion believe their understanding of the book has placed them in a unique position to defeat the Yodotai, should those conquerors ever trouble the Empire. However, scholars who are more familiar with the text are deeply troubled by references that imply it is but one of a larger series of works.
It's already happening.
The mantis always had mix breed people since the time of the first powder devils invasion in their ranks. And had contacts with them till the whities were wiped out by plague. So it was easily possible to be alive and well and gajin in rokugan. Crab also did not care how someone face looked like as a kid. If he grew up big and strong, nothing else mattered.
Crane, Dragon, and Phoenix also have relations with Yobanjin.
But that was much later on, when l5r got crazy. Mantis had gajin in their ranks, when true emperors ruled rokugan.
1. It's barely any time past the clan wars
2. Rokugan practices revisionist history, so it's entirely possible to have some samurai learning from gaijin every century and not currently know about it, because revisionist history and RYW can be used for good as well as avoiding answering setting/rules questions
I've played 1E and 4E. Mechanical differences aside, of which there are many, I always preferred the 1E because it was very focused on what it wanted to be - RPG set in feudal Japan with some magic. Especially when you contrast it with Oriental Adventure which really showed Rokugan does not work if you try to play it as oriental D&D, for example. It's not so much about going into dungeons and taking all the magical loot you can carry as much as it's about maneuvering in rigid and foreign society while adhering to its rules and finding loopholes wherever you can to actually do what you want. I'd like to lean on what one user already said about diluting the setting because that was the exact impression I got from 4E - when you add so much to the core you end up with a watered down book that tries to do too many things at once.
how do people respond to yokuni's glowing eyes? also, was he the original special snowflake, what with being a dragon and all that?
Not a lot of people actually met Yokuni. Plus being from the Togashi family people expect weird.
>1E was very focused on what it wanted to be - RPG set in feudal Japan with some magic
Too bad all it had was focus.
Goddammit, thread.
Ehh... there was a number of things that came up for that event and a lot of times I heard of players paying for techniques to represent skills they might have already had but wouldn't have used till that point.
The best example I can think of was a unicorn Ide player at the court that had a trained war dog as a body guard/ assistant trailing him everywhere. He was new to the rpg side of L5R being a ccg guy and after making his character sheet and it being approved only a few weeks into the game did he and his AGM realize that he didn't have the right animal skills needed to have his dog do anything, but the character had a backstory showing years of animal training, role-played the dog and his character as being highly skilled already and so on. The GMs told him he could spend the experience he earned by that point to buy the skills he would and should technically have had by that point, but that was new player and AGM error and miscommunication from what I heard.
So if the Atsushi player was supposed to be a well trained duelist like his bio said he would be having him pay experience for a technique he probably would have learned in the past before his first duel wouldn't have been that bad from what I gather. It wouldn't have been him "learning the technique over wintercourt" but more him being able to use a technique he would have learned well before the court, and only now being relevant. Being called "a duelist" can be vague as fuck after all.
There WAS precedence for it. Granted, the actions the Ide wanted to perform were saving people from a library fire with the dog and not PVP but still. The other example I can recall was a player paying for the spy contacts their bio said they had, but the AGM didn't actually stat them as having for another already existing character like Atsushi.
Also its clear that all AGMs in this event weren't equal. The Unicorn gm might have just been nicer and more understanding then the Crab and Spider gms.
He wasn't a special snowflake really, more like the god pulling the strings leading up the that point.
I mean he was a Kami that remained among mortals for 1000 years, hiding himself amongst the people until he acted during the second day of thunder. His role in things is pretty solid.
>Ide player at the court that had a trained war dog
Uh... You need Animal Handling only to train the dog. Its Rank 3 Mastery Ability allows any other character without the Skill to command around the trained animal no problem.
Also, LOL, I can remember the guy. Ide Doburu if I rememeber correctly? His dog was some special kind of beast, like, being all intelligent and sheet, right?
>Uh... You need Animal Handling only to train the dog.
I don't know the full details, I mostly followed the actions of my clan's delegation, the crane, along with phoenix and dragon so I only saw him drift into certain scenes. Apparently he didn't post very often but got serious shit done according to a few players I talked to after the fact. I didn't even notice him unless he showed up on the dias except for a few scenes here and there.
He apparently was rich enough to get an audience with the regent and the emerald champion for the Crane, allowing them to undermine the Otomo by slipping them hidden and suppressed documents about the wars in the colonies, getting their main goal accomplished for the court so he's cool with me for that part.
>His dog was some special kind of beast, like, being all intelligent and sheet, right?
APPARENTLY it was a magic or at least heavily enchanted dog, something about the unicorn gaijin magic. I never really figured that part out but the dog was able to see Asako Maemuki's ancestor's ghost clearly and could apparently track people by their souls if a shugenja did the right stuff around it. I don't really know for sure. It answered doors for him and could deliver letters as well.
Ah, yeah. So why the Animal Handling Skill? It looks more like a weird-ass Servant Advantage.
>Also its clear that all AGMs in this event weren't equal. The Unicorn gm might have just been nicer and more understanding then the Crab and Spider gms.
The Spider AGM didn't even get a chance to weigh in on me buying the Kata. The Crab AGM jumped in on things while I was talking to other Spider players OOC in the Spider private section of the forums and pulled in the Head GM when it was pointed out that other AGMs were already allowing players to buy Kata during WC.
>APPARENTLY it was a magic or at least heavily enchanted dog, something about the unicorn gaijin magic. I never really figured that part out but the dog was able to see Asako Maemuki's ancestor's ghost clearly and could apparently track people by their souls if a shugenja did the right stuff around it. I don't really know for sure. It answered doors for him and could deliver letters as well.
Damn, what kind of stuff have the Unicorn been up to that they can make shit like that!
This makes me want to play a magistrate all about hunting criminals with soul tracking hunting hounds.
How the hell would I stat something like that?
>How the hell would I stat something like that?
A normal (war) dogie with Inner Gift?
Glowing eyes isn't actually that strange. Every single shugenja gets glowy eyes whenever they're calling on the kami. Usually glows white, but strongly focusing on one element can make it jade green (Like the entire Kuni Family) or orange or blue.
The strange part is that his eyes never stop glowing.
Eternal loli bump
So how viable is Maho for actual usage as far as PCs go? Provided you manage to keep it secret, of course.
You will start visibly rotting, sprouting tentacles, etc sooner rather than later. Even before that, it's somewhat more like spouting radiation and evil ghosts than calling on the kami, unless you're a Chuda shugenja.
Short answer: Not in your average game.
Long answer: - in addition, you'll need some kind of disguise/graduation of sorts (i.e. Doji courtier) - if you take the Bloodpseaker rank 1 instead of your own, the lack of technique will be suspicious to your brethren.
In a lost game, it works fine.
If you use it extremely sparingly, it can be done. But every point of Taint is a point you'll never get rid of, and once you hit 1.0, you're on the fast track to being retired/killed.
Just remember, it's not illegal to be tainted, but it is illegal to conceal it, and it's extremely illegal to not follow a relevant authority's (Kuni Witch Hunter, Phoenix Inquisitors, Emerald/Jade Magistrates, monks in charge of jade petal tea monasteries, ect) orders related to it.
Soo, how would one out shoshuro a shoshuro?
By being a Soshi, duh.
Aside from that. What schools have a shot?
Any scout school. Really, any school. Being a ninja mechanically relies more on skills and traits than Techniques. A Shoshuro with shitty skills will be outclassed by a Hiruma with decent stealth.
Schools? None, really. Shosuro school is the best option for ninja. You'd be relying on a superior ratio of XP invested to out-ninja them.
Hiruma Scout with Crab Berserker and Hiruma Slayer paths.
>suddenly ninja Berserkers everywhere
you forgot about crab knife fighter. Making a tanto a 4k2 weapon.
Doesn't synergize well with Hiruma Slayer, and replaces their ultra stealth ability. CKF isn't worth it for that build.
Nah. Knife Fighter w. Berserker gets you k3 damage. Slayer with Berserker gets you k4 with exploding 9's on damage rolls by R4.
... and the books expressly caution GMs on allowing Berserker / Slayers.
The book is mostly talking out its ass. A Hida 'zerker using a Tetsubo outdamages a Hiruma 'zerk-slayer, and doesn't even need to lower its overall school rank to do it.
It's an impressive combo, but it's not really bad enough to deserve a special warning.
Admittedly I haven't deliberately tried break the system, but I haven't seen anything outrageously overpowered that doesn't explicitly say "this is for NPCs only."
Ryoko Owari has a white russian geisha sex goddess who runs a geisha house for the Unicorn Clan
Although she might have been from Merenae, I don't know. Magda sounds more like a slavic name to me, but whatever.
>how do people respond to yokuni's glowing eyes?
Barely anyone, ever, goes up the Dragon Mountains, and of those people, barely any, if ever, actually meet Yokuni.
Besides, Yokuni's eyes are the least wierd thing about him. usually when people meet him, they can't tell if hes moving or still, and the whole encounter has a dreamy drug haze quality to it. People aren't even ever sure they hear him talk, much less say anything meaningful, and everyone comes away with a confused feeling.
I don't think the gaijin nations were defined at the time City of Lies was published.
And even if they were, likely AEG told Stoltz they were completely different just to fuck with him