Systems that Dis-empower Players?

So, my group refuses to touch GURPS, GURPS-lite, or anything that stinks of too many rules... However when I explained to them the concept of Bunnies and Burrows they were fascinated, especially when I explained that it was basically designed to be a game that forces players to think in a semi-D&D game.

So, anyone have any systems that have this sort of gritty player dis-empowerment, and is Generic enough to adapt B&B to it? So far I'm considering Savage Worlds, and the Cypher system. We did think about Apocalypse World, but it was vetoed when the players learned it used the same system Dungeon World uses.

Gritty systems general as well, I guess.

I'm sorry, but I can't take seriously any discussion that has bunnies with laser beam eyes in it.

Sauce ?

Is it Fables? The text reminds me of that, but I haven't read the comic in a while. Still, talking bunnies + crazy magic hexes is a thing that would fit in Fables just fine.

Now I want to run something centered around woodland creatures wielding the dark arts. What system would that use?

I think its from a weird X-Men thing.

Usually when you're talking about player disempowerment, it's the other way around. With a robust rule system, players can point to that and say "yes, my character IS supposed to be able to do that." It's a more metalevel conversation. Do you mean having weaker characters, relative to their surroundings and settings, in general? Because you can do that with any system, you just need to ramp up the ambient powerlevel and make the NPCs not be idiots.

GURPS bunnies and burrows

No kidding.

Did you guys know that you can literally use Google to find the sauce on images

OP, there's a non-GURPS version of Bunnies and Burrows.

>when user just looks at the first hit and doesn't do the legwork

It's from Fables.

Yeah, I did that, and it said Gurps Bunnies and Burrows, but most of the links below that appeared to be people posting that exact image to chans and shit, and I figured it was a "lol, GURPS" meme rather than an image actually taken from GURPS Bunnies and Burrows.
.

Okay, so I was right, it is from Fables, and the image being linked to GURPS is just a dumb meme. Thanks, user!

Man, I really need to read Fables again.

>Yeah, I did that, and it said Gurps Bunnies and Burrows, but most of the links below that appeared to be people posting that exact image to chans and shit, and I figured it was a "lol, GURPS" meme rather than an image actually taken from GURPS Bunnies and Burrows.

I know everyone's search results are different, but this image was on the first page of hits for me.

Huh. I guess I need to visit more sites where people are posting whole comic pages. Stupid google bubbles.

>Systems that Dis-empower Players?
There's ONE and ONLY ONE way to "disempower" players.

It is to take away their agency. It's to make their decisions in-game mean ABSOLUTELY JACKSHIT.

And once you take away their agency? It's no longer a game.
It's just a story where they are along for the ride.
It's a railroad in its stritest sense.


The motto of "disempowering" players is "Welcome to Whose Game Is It Anyway, where everything's made up and your decisions don't matter."

So, if you want to look at the games that "disempower" players - just take a look at, I dunno, Telltale recent games.

What the fuck is player dis-empowerment?

I think OP wants systems where players don't have as much power over the world as a lot of modern systems do. Like grittier, less high-flying pulp and more small-scale.
Bunnies and Burrows fits that, and is very different from what this guy thinks OP means: .

If that's the case play BRP as a universal system. The free Mythras rules are 34 pages long and can easily be used for bunnies and burrows.

>user really wants to post but doesn't know anything about the topic

This user is correct

Gurps Bunnies and Burrows user, with whatever magic system you want to use.

>We did think about Apocalypse World, but it was vetoed when the players learned it used the same system Dungeon World uses.

Well, that is hardly fair.
Dungeon World is a failed attempt at translating AW's mechanics to the dungeon crawling genre, brought about by its creators' inability to comprehend the reasoning and design behind AW's mechanics.

>Dungeon World is a failed attempt at translating AW's mechanics to the dungeon crawling genre, brought about by its creators' inability to comprehend the reasoning and design behind AW's mechanics.

>hugely successful game with a wide community and tons of third party support
>developers spoke with Vince Baker frequently while designing it

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e

Dark Heresy

seriously regardless of your opinions about DW give AW a look

>someone never played paranoia

well, CoC is pretty disempowering

>hugely successful game with a wide community and tons of third party support
Doesn't make 3.PF a good game, either.

>developers spoke with Vince Baker frequently while designing it
You know how you can explain stuff to some people over and over again and every time they tell you "Got it!" and then go and fuck exactly that thing up?

>Doesn't make 3.PF a good game, either.

I'm saying it didn't fail. Its mechanics work well, people like the game, you just don't like it. That's fine, but "DW is a shitty remake of AW" is a dumb Veeky Forums meme.

>You know how you can explain stuff to some people over and over again and every time they tell you "Got it!" and then go and fuck exactly that thing up?

Yeah, but why don't you try asking Vincent Baker what he thinks instead of stuffing words in his mouth? He's only an email away, and he's not in your camp on this.
Probably because he understands game design a lot better than "I don't like this therefore it's shitty design" which is all I've ever gotten about Dungeon World on Veeky Forums.

>he's not in your camp on this.
And I can merrily claim that he is, for all we know. Back it up with facts, would you?

I've typed my explanation a couple of times now, but to keep it short DW's design problems are incentives and consequences.

AW grants experience for rolling the stats your fellow players and MC highlight at the start of a session. Each stat represents a distinctive approach to a situation and is tied to one or two basic Moves. None of the moves ever give you a perfect outcome; you are always left wanting. And every outcome tangibly changes your situation.

DW grants experience for failure; no way for the group to incentivize interesting actions. STR, DEX and CON all deal with fighting and every stat can be used to Defy Danger. Hack'n'Slash, Volley and Cast a Spell all give you perfect outcomes on a 10+. Almost every move that deals with HP often fails to change the situation in any meaningful way.

This version of Watership Down really jumped the shark

>And I can merrily claim that he is, for all we know. Back it up with facts, would you?

I'm not the one making claims about Vince Baker's interactions with the DW creators, you are.

I'm not making any claims either, I was just pointing out that your argument doesn't mean anything.

Even if you often talk to the creator of the game you're taking the system from, it doesn't mean jack if you don't ask the right questions.
And Vincent Baker didn't actively work on the development on DW, now did he?

>Dungeon World is a failed attempt at translating AW's mechanics to the dungeon crawling genre
Yeah! They cut out the sex powers!

CoC or Dark Heresy would be at some of the lowest points for raw power a player has, while Mythras/RuneQuest 6 lets you be pretty damn strong as an individual character but you still die if you get overwhelmed or caught in a nasty trap or something.

>developers spoke with Vince Baker frequently while designing it
Vincent Baker is explicitly making a fantasy hack for AW 2e, so he clearly has an opinion about what fantasy AW would look like and it's not he same.

I like DW, but it definitely has flaws compared to a game like Monsterhearts which is more niche but is incredibly good at what it does.

Hackmaster 5th Edition