Stop feeding Colette edition
Godbound is an OSR game by Kevin Crawford (of Scarlet Heroes and Stars Without Number) for playing demigods in a world that is falling apart. Players select powers from a range of "Words" to give themselves various abilities like flying or retconning a turn of a fight
It's basically exalted, but with less crunch and intended for more sandboxy gameplay
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I'm still interested in the sorts of concepts that people are going for when they first build character concepts. I feel like Alacrity, Sword and a third thing based on theme is going to be the most popular option, but I'm wondering how many people look at this system and decide to make a non-combat character.
I mean, tend to prefer sneaky spy characters, so I tend to prefer Night and Deception, then probably Bow because melee is uncivilized.
Godbound General!
What is Godbound? It's a 3pp Pathfinder class that basically transforms Pathfinder into a brand new game, though still a d20 game.
In Godbound, you play a Godbound. You're a superpowered godling whom no mortal hero can stop, no matter how powerful they are. If you're a level 1 Godbound and the other guy is a level 20 mortal wizard, you'll win because your can fling your divine powers at them and they'll have no chance of resisting. Your only opposition comes from other Godbound.
What kind of Godbound can you play? Think of an Exalted type. Those are the playable Godbound, because Godbound's setting is actually just Creation from Exalted. So you can play a Solar Godbound, a Lunar Godbound, a Sidereal Godbound, an Alchemical Godbound, or whatever.
What do you do in Godbound? Take over the world, try to make the world better, or both. But don't worry, because this game doesn't have any clunky domain management rules to slow you down. You'll just have to trust in your GM to fiat how things work in downtime.
Sounds good?
Wife made Might/Artifice/Endurance. She's playing a muscular smithing/artificing dame. Not sure how it's going to work just yet, haven't gotten out of the origin story.
Sounds fun.
>Alacrity, Sword and a third thing
This will only really the case for melee-centric characters, given how necessary Unerring Blade and a mobility gift are for them. Even then, Sky or Might can substitute for Alacrity given their own mobility gifts.
For a ranged attack-oriented character, Bow alone and the Bolt of Invincible Skill and Rain of Sorrow gifts alone will net a character perfectly respectable ranged capacities with no further investments. This takes only a single Word and three gift points, so the character is left with two Words and three gift points for actual noncombat utility.
I am thinking of working with Artifice, Journeying, and Knowledge for my own character. Artifice can craft any items out of any materials ( forum.rpg.net
I will also be taking the Know the Path and The Path of Racing Dawn gifts for rapid travel. They allow a party to travel virtually anywhere in just a few days at most. Going by the map of Arcem, it should allow a party to travel from the northwestern-most tip of the realm to the southeastern-most corner in just ~15 or ~16 hours without stopping and without need for food or sleep. This should be tremendously useful when trying to affect the world on a grand scale.
I will also be using a Fact to select an 8-Dominion artifact containing 1 Effort, Unending Abundance, and Ender of Plagues to ensure the health of any peoples I come across. At levels 2, 3, and 4, I will be purchasing a mix of The Exodus Road to help bring along whole nations with me and The Omniscient Scholar and Irresistible Query to be able to make the right decisions.
It would probably be a good idea to swap out Endurance for either Bow or Sword for such a character.
Endurance only really benefits characters who will make themselves primary targets. Disregarding Voice of the Winds madness, the Bow or Sword Word is the simplest method for attaining immediate combat prowess at a relatively low cost. At the lower levels, a combat-centric character really, really needs an auto-hit gift like Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade, unless the GM only pits the party against low-AC militiamen and wild animals.
A decent build for this type of character would be:
Artifice: Ten Thousand Tools (lesser), Perpetual Perfection (greater)
Bow: Bolt of Invincible Skill (lesser), Omnipresent Reach (lesser)
Might: Effort of the Word (lesser)
Ten Thousand Tools and Perpetual Perfection are bread-and-butter "very good at crafting" gifts. Omnipresent Reach should allow the Might Word's Strength 19 to be used for ranged attacks and lets a character shoot or throw weapons out to line of sight. Bolt of Invincible Skill is a self-explanatory auto-hit gift, and Effort of the Word can fuel Bolt in combat and provide leeway for miracles outside of combat.
Remember that there are absolutely no penalties for using ranged attacks in melee, so nothing is stopping a character from throwing a hammer or an anvil point-blank and activating Bolt of Invincible Skill if it misses.
>I'm still interested in the sorts of concepts that people are going for when they first build character concepts.
The first thing I did was design like fifty characters and see how meaningfully distinct they would be. My very first one was a rip off of the Yellow Emperor myth, as a Sword/Alacrity/Knowledge character who would eventually buy the Command Word. Warrior-Scholar turned Leader type thing.
Then it was dozens of touhou characters. DOZENS.
If we're going with a character I actually played, I went Might/Endurance/Beasts beastman demigod, which was kind of fun. Shame it only lasted one session
>to be able to make the right decisions
Yeah, because that's what roleplaying games are all about for the minmaxer. Making the "right decisions" so you win at D&D!
>Then it was dozens of touhou characters. DOZENS.
Any particularly fun ones?
>a Sword/Alacrity/Knowledge character who would eventually buy the Command Word
Purchasing Words in general is on shaky ground, because you will have to "save up" for a level just to conserve the three gift points and because those same three gift points could have gone towards buying a lesser gift and a greater gift.
What I would do for such a character is work with Alacrity, Knowledge, and Sword and then either:
A. Pitch the reskinning of Know The Inner Truth, The Lieutenant's Wisdom, and Bearer of the Scarlet Crown for the Knowledge Word ( forum.rpg.net
B. Use an artifact for Command gifts, possibly even an 8-Dominion artifact from a Fact at character creation.
>If we're going with a character I actually played, I went Might/Endurance/Beasts beastman demigod
Taking Endurance and Might without an autohit gift is a good way to find yourself endlessly whiffing at opponents. Your character would have been better served by Beasts, Might, and Sword with Nine Iron Walls for defense and, more importantly, Unerring Blade for that ever-important auto-hit.
Allowing a character to make proper, well-informed decisions is, in fact, the province of the Knowledge Word.
>Irresistible Query, Action
>Commit Effort for the day. Ask the GM any question about current or past events and be answered in one word or short phrase. This power cannot be used more than once on a given topic until the situation changes significantly.
>The Omniscient Scholar, Constant
>You have mastered all spheres of mortal academic knowledge. You always know the answer to any question involving such learning, if any mortal sage knows it and automatically succeed on attribute checks to accomplish intellectual tasks if they're within mortal capabilities.
These two greater gifts make a character a well-lanned sage.
I did spend a bit of time looking at my previous fantasy characters and seeing how they'd work in Godbound. Only one that actually worked AS a Godbound; a 5e Warlock that I managed to get from level 1 to level 14 over most of a year, whose backstory fit the "touched by and able to access a vast semi-external power" theme pretty well.
My Pathfinder Magus who kicked all the ass would only be a major heroic mortal. He ended his campaign by becoming an immortal undead, so I got to thinking about the Undying gift, but it occurs to me that as an NPC he'd work well if some other entity, such as a Parasite God or a Made God, was using No Release on him. You could do that as a campaign theme if you were running Godbound; antagonists that keep coming back, no matter how creative the PCs get with destroying them, until the actual villain is defeated.
Another fairly basic build I am fond of is a "generic sniper" as alluded to in the sidebar for the Bow Word. All it takes is Bow, Sun, and whatever third utility Word one fancies. I would personally take Alacrity, Bow, Command, Deception, Knowledge, Might, Passion, or Time to improve an attribute of 8 at character creation to a much higher value.
Gifts are simple:
Bow: Bolt of Invincible Skill (lesser), None Beyond Reach (lesser), The Inexorable Shaft (greater)
Sun: Creation's First Light (greater)
Find yourself a good, elevated vantage point and activate Creation's First Light.
>Creation’s First Light, On Turn
>Commit Effort. Your vision penetrates any non-magical barrier, allowing you to see anything and everything out to the horizon. Focusing on something not in the immediate area requires a round. This vision automatically penetrates illusions and sees the true shape of shapeshifters. It cannot pierce the gifts of the Deception Word, however.
Once you have located your target, commit Effort to The Inexorable Shaft and start firing away. Use a pair of thrown or one-handed ranged weapons for 1d10 + Dexterity modifier damage; None Beyond Reach should extend their range indefinitely. Bolt of Invincible Skill will ensure an automatic initial hit, and The Inexorable Shaft should allow your shots to penetrate any barriers.
As long as you keep up Creation's First Light and The Inexorable Shaft, you should be able to continuously fire away at your hapless target from miles away.
>Taking Endurance and Might without an autohit gift is a good way to find yourself endlessly whiffing at opponents.
Yeah, it sucked, hard. Lmaofistsofblackiron
TOUHOUFAG!
I HAVE A SRS QUESTION FOR YOU!
It's about 4e D&D. You gave me good advice in past days of yore, o I'd like to pick your brain again. Is there a base class, ie no hybrid or multiclass, that is a dedicated gish type? One of my players is really looking for a spellsword type, but I'm not really sure they exist.
THANK YOU.
Man, that is just dirty. I feel like any GM is going to have to get harsh with the retaliations against that sort of strategy to prevent it from becoming dominant.
>improve an attribute of 8 at character creation to a much higher value.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, I really like that the sample character uses this trick. I can see some GMs getting sniffy about this sort of minmaxing approach, so it's nice to see the game highlight it as a legitimate approach. I do like me some high base stats.
There's a character I was going to create based on Might, Endurance and Health. You could roll a 3 for every stat and still have a Strength of 19 and a Constitution of 18 with those words.
Swordmage or Hexblade. First is a Defender with a minor in Controller, second is a Striker from the Essentials line.
Are people still playing 4e? I haven't seen any games for it. Plenty of 5e, a bit of Pathfinder, no other DnD-alikes.
Sticking with Godbound, though, has anyone looked at the Sorcery options? I feel like they're pretty awesome, especially the low magic stuff, given how low the cost of entry is and how wide the themes are. Never seen anyone discuss that part of the rules though, since everyone is completely reasonably focused on the Words.
>Swordmage
I heard it was garbage
>or Hexblade
I heard it was WORSE.
>people still playing 4e
Yes. Some people still play BASIC.
>no games
Because PSTripple, son.
But really, this is a irl table game.
>I heard it was garbage
It's really not. I played one for about a year in an IRL game and he was a fantastically tanky motherfucker who could mitigate damage and control the field very nicely.
From the same experience though I would say that only the Shielding/Warding aegis type is worth it; flat DR per round for your team is far more valuable than teleporting to enemies when they don't attack you, and teleporting enemies to YOU is only situationaly useful.
Still, build defense to maximum and take as many debilitating effects as possible, and you'll have a really solid defender of weeaboo fightin magic.
Fists of Black Iron, as we have established in previous threads, is one of the most flagrant trap options in the entire game. Going from:
1d10+4 damage: (1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4) / 10 = average 2.9 damage
to
1d12+4 damage: (1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4) / 12 = average 3.08333333333 damage
Is completely pathetic even by the standards of no-Effort lesser gifts.
At the behest of others, let us use a D&D 4e general thread to discuss this: >I feel like any GM is going to have to get harsh with the retaliations against that sort of strategy to prevent it from becoming dominant.
I sincerely believe this to be an overpowered, campaign-distorting build. It pushes the pantheon towards solving problems via cheesy, long-distance methods. There is no point storming the fortress of a villain when the ideal strategy is to simply shoot the bad guy from afar.
Any given realm has to be filled with countless magical walls to prevent this madness from being the prime strategy for adventuring.
>There's a character I was going to create based on Might, Endurance and Health. You could roll a 3 for every stat and still have a Strength of 19 and a Constitution of 18 with those words.
Constitution 16 is somewhat of a trap option, because it does not actually improve your hit points per level past level 1 compared to Constitution 13. You need Constitution 18 to make it relevant.
The first three low magic traditions (Academy of Thought, Cinnabar Order, Curse-Eaters) are quite powerful to gain archmastery in via a single Fact. The Academy of Thought allows for spontaneous major mind control, the Cinnabar Order lets you summon 8 HD fire elementals and hurl out 2d10 damage fireballs with no saving throw, and the Curse-Eaters let you employ very powerful no-save debuffs with prior preparation.
>Bolt of Invincible Skill will ensure an automatic initial hit
This is why I rate Bolt as more important than Blade; Bolt gives you a free strike if you initiate combat and/or if you can conceal yourself somehow to lose attention (Damn Their Eyes comes to mind)
Blade ignores some defenses, but that's much more situational.
The other five low magic traditions are worthless.
The Empty Way's effects are too weak.
Hedge Magic's effects are too weak and take too long to cast.
The Merciful Hand's healing is minor and requires that Effort be committed.
The Seers of the Bright Eye are hampered by basic wards and take too long to cast their spells.
The Theotechnicians demand much too much time and Wealth for their effects, and Kevin Crawford says it does not even synergize with the Artifice and Wealth Words ( plus.google.com
Keep to the first three low magic traditions (Academy of Thought, Cinnabar Order, Curse-Eaters) and ignore the other five like the plague.
As for theurgy, I do not think it is worth the heavy investment. Theurgic invocations are not *that* powerful for their price and their casting time. Even the highest-tier invocations of the Throne confer relatively middling effects at best, and the strongest of them, Auspice of the Divine King, cannot be sustained in the face of a major supernatural opponent.
Theurgy requires a generous GM willing to come up with new invocations and place them in the hands of the player to be worthwhile.
I would personally use the Sorcery Word solely for Greater Pavis of Rule, the Subtle Eye of Knowing, and Wizard's Wrath (quite cheesy with Rain of Sorrow, Fury of the Avalanche, or Voice of the Winds). Unless I absolutely knew my GM would be generous with invocations, I would avoid theurgy.
Bolt of Invincible Skill is indeed slightly better, although note that just because you go first in initiative does not mean that your targets are "unaware." This will, of course, happen if you initiate combat from miles away with None Beyond Reach or Omnipresent Reach.
It really is just plain better to rely on ranged combat than melee combat. It does not help that Bolt of Invincible Skill + Rain of Sorrow is a far more synergistic combo than Unerring Blade + Cutting the Crimson Road.
>Fists of Black Iron
Have you considered that Fists upgrades 1H weapons to D10s?
This would let you deal the same damage as a 2hander, 4's on Maximized rolls and Blade activations, while also letting you get a little a little more AC.
You can potentially use this to put your AC at 2, if you have Reverence of Steel or are willing to eat the save penalty and wear armor crafted by someone else's RoS.
It's not a good 1st level choice sure, but I think you're looking at it too narrowly.
>Bolt of Invincible Skill + Rain of Sorrow is a far more synergistic combo than Unerring Blade + Cutting the Crimson Road.
Cutting the Crimson Road feels like it's meant for higher level godbound to style on armies of weaker enemies with, and it seems like it's meant to pair with Thirsting Razor not Unerring Blade.
Another level 2+ (or 1 if you want to hyper-specialize) possibility is The Path Through War + Shattering Hand, which would let you kill infinite lesser foes with your fray die over time as long as they didn't have a wizard with them (and if they're Lesser, they probably don't). Pair it with Banner of Passion to make all Lesser's nearby hate you, and you can singlehandedly deal with a foe's entire supply of minions while the rest of your Pantheon fights the Greater Foe(s).
Thinking and reading it over, it's probably only worth taking Shattering Hand with The Path Through War at later levels, or vice versa, because of the limited killing opportunity as opposed to other minion-clearing skills.
The Path Through War + Banner of Passion however is absolutely fantastic at "taunting" minions that would otherwise get in the party's way, and since people you're fighting should always have some degree of desire to kill you then pushing that to a desire to kill you and ONLY you shouldn't go beyond "the limits of their character" whether you fluff it as bloodlust or seeing you as the most dangerous threat toward a ward.
The combo also leaves you free to cast buffs and heals unto the rest of your Pantheon, since Path only drops if you make an aggressive non-fray action.
I'll also say that it's possible for Path+Banner+Shattering's Fray Dice to be better than they seem, since it's stated that Fray dice can rarely be upgraded with Gifts, but I can't seem to find a single default gift that actually does that.
>Have you considered that Fists upgrades 1H weapons to D10s?
Wielding a pair of weapons, be they needles (as the sidebar for the Sword Word shows us), thrown or one-handed ranged weapons, or even fists, improves your damage dice to an automatic 1d10 + Strength or Dexterity modifier. If you are taking Fists of Black Iron just to wield a single one-handed weapon at 1d10, then all you are getting out of it is +1 AC, which is completely pathetic.
Do not take Fists of Black Iron. It is not good.
>Cutting the Crimson Road feels like it's meant for higher level godbound to style on armies of weaker enemies with, and it seems like it's meant to pair with Thirsting Razor not Unerring Blade.
Cutting the Crimson Road does take an additional purchase in Thirsting Razor to make it work well, yes, which makes it more costly than Bolt of Invincible Skill + Rain of Sorrow.
>The Path Through War + Shattering Hand
Oh, we have been through this many, many times. The Path Through War/Voice of the Winds build is one of the cheesiest builds in the game, and yet it is inexplicably approved by Kevin Crawford himself. You can read previous discussions of it here:
archive.4plebs.org
A level 1 Godbound who goes all-in and takes Effort of the Word, Voice of the Winds, The Path Through War, and Wizard's Wrath outclasses the vast majority of combat-dedicated builds in the system. Kevin Crawford considers this completely fine because "all it can do is fight" (false, especially given the utility side of Voice of the Winds), and all of RPG.net backs him up on this, which is completely puzzling to me.
If you really want to do a "mind control everyone" built, by the way, an ideal way to go about it would be to take both the Command and Passion Words.
Spam A Thousand Loyal Troops and Banner of Passion for at-will, no Effort-cost (reclaim the Effort immediately) mental influence. In case of an emergency wherein you must mind control a swath of enemies immediately, use Thrall-Making Shout.
All of this costs only two Words and four gift points.
Also, I would not bother with Shattering Hand for a Voice of the Winds/The Path Through War build. It requires an Effort commitment and 2 gift points, and Fray dice with Voice of the Winds will already be maximized against Mobs.
>Do not take Fists of Black Iron. It is not good.
I specified not at 1st level because it's a minor upgrade, but not a completely worthless one for only 1 gift point at a later level where you might be wishing to drop your AC as low as possible within the system.
>Melee Mobkilling Vs Ranged
for one, Road and Rain are both Greater Gifts, and Bolt and Razor are both Lesser, so the Gift Point cost is equal for both. I would also argue that for the specific purpose Razor is superior because it is a conditionless autohit to your desired target type and doesn't potentially consume Effort that might be needed for Alpha-Striking Worthy Foes with Blade or sustaining your buff effects.
Both combo's Read Straight, but Road inherently maximizes damage which means you will likely kill entire swaths of foes even at higher levels when "Lesser" Foes will have a significant amount of HD.
also
>Fray dice with Voice of the Winds will already be maximized against Mobs.
Nothing in Voice says that damage is maximized against Mobs; to my understanding of the rules Fray against mobs is Read Straight, not Maximized. Could you point to a page in the rules that says otherwise?
>If you really want to do a "mind control everyone" build
sorry if that was the impression, but the intent was to have a 3 GP combo of Sword and Passion that immediately removes all Lesser Foes from the path of your Pantheon and lets them fight the Worthy Foes without distraction.
It also doesn't involve other (possibly innocent) mortals, which may be a concern depending on the Character/Pantheon.
comment was too long, but.
>Wind Bullshit
I'd like to see a link to some of the developer commentary because this feels like it could easily be a misreading, but:
Shattering Hand seems to read that it only applies to Melee Fray Dice, but either way other than concerns of having too little GP to go around at level 1, I would think that a consistent 2/8 damage per attack would be better than 0-2/1-8 damage (Foes/Mobs)
And I would think the Shouting to Activate would break Path but again, I'd like to see the Dev's explicit words on the matter before I make any further judgements.
I may also be missing some topics here and there, because of the span of topics involved.
It's nice to see someone else actually talk about the fucking rules with 2hu, rather then just crying about autism or some shit.
Thank you. I'm not so mechanically inclined, myself, but it helps me get a solid idea of gamestuff by seeing people who are actually talk about this stuff.
>but not a completely worthless one for only 1 gift point at a later level where you might be wishing to drop your AC as low as possible within the system.
+1 AC for 1 gift point is a poor purchase. If you wish to have low AC, take one of the AC 3 gifts, although that rules out using a shield.
>Road and Rain are both Greater Gifts, and Bolt and Razor are both Lesser, so the Gift Point cost is equal for both.
The important difference between Bolt + Rain and Blade + Road is that Bolt + Rain works against Mobs regardless of their HD. If you are a level 2 Godbound and you are facing a Mob of 3 HD "elite warriors," you would be capable of blasting through them with Bolt + Rain. Meanwhile, a level 2 Godbound would be incapable of using Road against 2 HD "veterans," because Road is particularly stringent in terms of HD applicability.
Blade + Road leaves you at the mercy of the GM and their willingness to send low-HD opponents at you. Bolt + Rain will work regardless of the HD of the target Mob.
>but the intent was to have a 3 GP combo of Sword and Passion that immediately removes all Lesser Foes from the path of your Pantheon and lets them fight the Worthy Foes without distraction.
Kevin Crawford insists that Banner of Passion has strong limitations: forum.rpg.net
Voice of the Winds is compatible with The Path Through War, as nonsensical as that might be, and it does not prevent a normal application of the Fray die:
forum.rpg.net
forum.rpg.net
I was indeed misremembering the rule on Mobs and AoE attacks, so yes, Voice of the Winds with Shattering Hand would indeed deal a maximized 8 damage against Mobs. That is quite strong and worth investing in by level 2 or 3.
Yeah I'd rather try and make a meaningful discussion out of it rather than reeeing, as long as it doesn't turn into "no you're wrong". It's also nice to see how other people think on things, even if how they think might be disagreeable.
Also my autism is of a more "optimize to a concept" flavor rather than "optimize numerically" so I go for different paths of doing things.
If we absolutely, positively wished to take the optimization of the Kyouko Kasodani build to its logical conclusion, we would wind up with a level 2 character with the following loadout:
Sky: Voice of the Winds (greater)
Sword: The Path Through War (greater), Shattering Hand (greater)
One more Word unchosen and two gift points unspent, preferably noncombat utility gifts to complement Voice of the Wind's noncombat function
Fact for 8-Dominion Artifact: 2 Effort, Greater Pavis of Rule (lesser), Wizard's Wrath (lesser)
The Path Through War and Greater Pavis of Rule should confer invincibility against physical attacks and low magic and heavy resistance against theurgy. Your Voice of the Winds applications should deal an automatic 2 damage against everyone within 100 feet and 8 damage against Mobs in 100 feet, and you can still use your Fray die on top of that.
The only entities that can take you down at this point are miracle-users with offensive dispelling and anyone with the Purity of Brilliant Law lesser gift. Even then, you can continue to pummel them with your Fray die. According to Kevin Crawford, this is perfectly fine.
I do believe this to be the most powerful direct combat (as opposed to "miles-long sniping via Creation's First Light") build in the entire system.
Is Might+Luck the only combo that can possibly make a martial fighter using Might as their primary martial Word work? Salting Away The Luck and the Word's base ability seems like the only way to get around the whiffing problem without resorting to Sword or Bow.
>The only entities that can take you down at this point are miracle-users with offensive dispelling and anyone with the Purity of Brilliant Law lesser gift. Even then, you can continue to pummel them with your Fray die.
Oh, and of course, save-or-lose forcers, such as anyone firing up a Command, Deception, or Passion mental influence gift.
It will help to have some method of passive immunity to mind-affecting effects, although the character simply does not have room in their budget for such a thing.
Salting Away the Luck has a costly and inconvenient overhead and does not maximize damage.
You should see if your GM is willing to let you reskin Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade into another Word ( forum.rpg.net
I imagine that either could be reflavored into Luck or Might gifts, flavored as a lucky hit or unrelenting force.
>Salting Away the Luck has a costly and inconvenient overhead
How so? Keeping an Effort handy so you can reroll literally whatever the fuck you want and sabotage enemy rolls at the same time seems like a very reasonable thing to ask for.
>+1 AC for 1 gift point is a poor purchase. If you wish to have low AC, take one of the AC 3 gifts, although that rules out using a shield.
I meant to specify in saying that, that it's use would be for bringing your AC down to 2 when most AC 3 gifts do not allow you to reduce AC further. Is this practical at level 1? no almost never. Is it practical at higher levels when you already have an almost perfect build to your speciality? maybe.
>Road
alright I've been trying to work out good uses for Road but it does seem particularly limited to cutting through swathes of weak but still meaningful enemies. Situational.
>Kevin Crawford insists that Banner of Passion has strong limitations
alright I looked over your comment chain and while Banner of Passion is limited I don't see anything that denies the ability to use Banner to focus a band of killers on oneself, while focusing a group on one object/person is the explicit use of the power and making murderers focus their murderous intent does not seem like it would run into contention with even strict GM's.
reading through the explanation of Path's compatibility with things, it seems like the design decision is that magical and conceptual attacks should be common opposition to the PC's, which makes sense now that I'm thinking of it; the scale of the default game is much greater than obvious from the usual D&D mindset.
>invincibility against physical attacks and low magic and heavy resistance against theurgy
>The only entities that can take you down at this point are miracle-users with offensive dispelling and anyone with the Purity of Brilliant Law lesser gift.
Note that Path specifically only works on -Weapon- and -Unarmed- attacks, that is: almost all damage-dealing gifts will bypass it.
so while you will have extreme defenses (and you have payed for them) you aren't entirely invincible to equivalent entities.
>cont
Salting Away the Luck's best usage involves rerolling poor d20 rolls on "consequential" actions and then handing those low d20 rolls to enemies.
This is good, but it is not as reliable as the automatic hit and automatic 4 damage of Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade.
That said, you raise a point regarding Salting Away the Luck. Is there anything actually stopping a Godbound from repeatedly using it on a single roll until it turns out to be a natural 20? Effort can always be reclaimed instantaneously as per page 25, so logically, a Godbound could commit Effort to Salt Away the Luck for a reroll, reclaim the Effort, commit Effort again for another reroll, reclaim again, and so on and so forth, until a 20 is rolled.
I would ask Kevin Crawford on RPG.net, but I have been banned from the Godbound thread by a trigger-happy White Wolf/Onyx Path writer and moderator for pressing Kevin Crawford with similar inquiries on murky mechanics.
As well, Smites can still affect a Path Through War/Greater Pavis of Rule-user.
Such a character has many defensive gaps, but they are still far better off in the survivability department than a character without these gifts, especially if they plan on spamming Voice of the Winds anyway.
Voice of the Winds would indeed anniahlate mobs and deal 2 damage to all others, 4 if you use all actions, but focused effort from Conceptual or Gift-Based attacks would rapidly outdamage you in focused damage. Sniper Build using Omnipresent Reach to cast force and avoid Path would be a decided counter.
you'd still murder everything around you slowly, which is a pretty damn good character build.
It's somewhat poorly written but I imagine the intent is that you keep the roll or are forced to spend it. Infinite recursion is almost always a result of bad wording.
>Such a character has many defensive gaps, but they are still far better off in the survivability department than a character without these gifts
I believe that is Krawford's point; if you build a character to be invincible, you probably should end up there or nearby, and your GM should adapt and think of what challenges do not require risk of death for one actor to remain challenging (saving others/things is an easy one).
>Such a character has many defensive gaps, but they are still far better off in the survivability department than a character without these gifts, especially if they plan on spamming Voice of the Winds anyway.
This is what gets me most of all.
Obviously I as a GM can ban some of the stupid bullshit that sausage sucker Crawford has okayed under the pretense of it being alright because we are, after all, talking about demigods here. But when you compare some of the bullshit you can pull off to the very easy to make unoptimized stuff you can design, it's clear that not all level 1 Godbound are equal. Or even operating in the same hemisphere of prowess and capabilities.
>it's use would be for bringing your AC down to 2 when most AC 3 gifts do not allow you to reduce AC further
If you are taking an AC 3 gift, then using a shield would do nothing for you anyway. Fists of Black Iron is still rubbish.
>I don't see anything that denies the ability to use Banner to focus a band of killers on oneself
Kevin Crawford seems to insist that Banner's effects are purely up to GM fiat.
>it seems like the design decision is that magical and conceptual attacks should be common opposition to the PC's
Which makes it all the more bizarre that Kevin Crawford thinks that "speaking to animals" is more powerful than "passive immunity to mind-influencing and mind-reading effects and the ability to flawlessly fool mind-reading effects": forum.rpg.net
The only way I can make sense of this is that Kevin Crawford runs games wherein mind-influencing/mind-reading effects are quite rare, animals are quite common, and non-physical attacks and smites are ubiquitous as well. That is a highly specific set of unwritten expectations.
>Note that Path specifically only works on -Weapon- and -Unarmed- attacks, that is: almost all damage-dealing gifts will bypass it.
As I point out in , this is true. Smites will go straight past it. However, The Path through War protects against magic weapons: forum.rpg.net
This means that The Path Through War will protect against Fertility's Seeds of Death or the Fire Word's basic effect.
>Conceptual or Gift-Based attacks would rapidly outdamage you in focused damage
This is true, and it will also be taxing to the enemy. I would rather eat Divine Wraths from major supernatural opponents than multiattacks with straight damage.
>Omnipresent Reach
This is a magic weapon, and thus The Path Through War protects against it.
>if you build a character to be invincible, you probably should end up there or nearby, and your GM should adapt and think of what challenges do not require risk of death for one actor to remain challenging
This person has already expressed my point with great eloquence. It is less of a matter of "This character is too powerful" and more of an issue of "This character is too effective compared to similar fully-combat-optimized Godbound."
Kevin Crawford and virtually everyone in the Godbound RPG.net thread swear up and down that the Voice of the Winds/Path Through War build is perfectly fine, but at the end of the day, a more conventionally optimized Bow or Sword Godbound trying to slay armies the "legitimate" way will have a far harder time doing so than the Voice of the Winds spammer. About the closest one could get without the Sky Word is taking the Endurance Word and spending Effort on Fear No Steel, and even then, that will not have the sheer AoE destruction of Voice of the Winds.
It is completely ridiculous that the best army-killer in a demigod game is *not* someone with one of the dedicated martial combat words (Bow and Sword), but someone shouting very loudly while hiding behind shields of invincibility.
Most of the bullshit is combat focused though, and even mind control bullshit can be countered because as easy as it is to build a massive army, it's similarly easy for an enemy to cut through said army so it will be a delay at best.
To paraphrase Nobilis, which may get me lynched here: you might be able to crack the planet in half at level 1, but that won't necessarily be helpful to you.
>Black Iron
I specifically pair it with Reverence of Steel, which can create heavy armor without restrictions, or with less restrictions.
>Kevin Crawford seems to insist that Banner's effects are purely up to GM fiat.
there is a difference between pure fiat and discretion, which may be hard to discern. For banner it is what is reasonable for NPC's, aka playing NPC's characters, aka the GM's job.
>"speaking to animals" is more powerful than "passive immunity.. etc etc"
The sticker of the Beast word's gift is that animals will -Always Obey- as long as you don't make them do blatantly unnatural things. There is a great amount of subtle utility to this, allowing you low level influence across a wide area at a low player level.
Mental Immunity isn't actually that unusual for a Word Power, given that for example the Sky word gives you passive immunity to three types of damage regardless of their source and Sun makes you immune to the common damage type of Fire.
Fate also occupies a special position, to quote the rulebook: "Undestined Godbound all have bound the Word of Fate, and are the only ones who can barring special GM permission."
It is a word primarily designed for an enemy faction, and as such has characteristics of other major divine enemies such as Angels. Were a player to argue for binding it, presumably they would have to accept consequences and concessions to their character for the privileged; by default it is not a player Word.
>cont because holy shit typing
>cont
>Path
quote your linked post
"no energy powers"
physical attacks will be deflected, but energy/elemental attacks will get through, which fire, sky, sun and others provide. Omnipresent Reach's "Force Bolts" could be counted as energy attacks and thus bypass Path.
Divine Wraths are not the sole method of piercing Path, and all of Krawford's posts imply that this is the correct reading of the rules.
Path builds are optimized for army killing, other builds are optimized for dueling equivalent divine entities. Army Slaying is important and a powerful skill, but it's not the only kind of combat that exists.
I would argue that the a pure physical warrior's slow but inevitable slaying of a purely mundane army is perfectly appropriate given that you are hacking through the army by your lonesome. Any Demigod who specializes into this sort of thing would probably want as a character to do all that fighting and killing by hand.
It also trivializes Voice of Winds to call it shouting loudly; divine figures cowing/breaking mere mortals with divine presence on a mass scale is perfectly acceptable, pic related.
>Fate also occupies a special position, to quote the rulebook: "Undestined Godbound all have bound the Word of Fate, and are the only ones who can barring special GM permission."
>It is a word primarily designed for an enemy faction, and as such has characteristics of other major divine enemies such as Angels. Were a player to argue for binding it, presumably they would have to accept consequences and concessions to their character for the privileged; by default it is not a player Word.
Is there a reason you think the optional rules for Themed Godbound are part of the default setting?
Nigger fate and shapeshifting aren't even in the default Word listing, they only show up listed together with them in the PDF bookmarks, which isn't indicative of the print order.
even if you treat Fate as a default Word, godbound have numerous avenues to avoid or deflect mental influence, which is just another avenue of attack that you can gain invulnerability from like plenty of words provide. The intention is that mind-magic is only as common as those other types; that the world isn't populated entirely by 3.5 wizards hurling save-or-lose mind effects all day.
>you might be able to crack the planet in half at level 1, but that won't necessarily be helpful to you.
The issue is that a more conventionally-optimized Godbound who is supposed to be an army-slayer simply cannot do so as well as a Voice of the Winds build. It is nice and all to have an RPG where characters can crack the planet in half, but there is an issue when some characters can do just that while others can only mildly dent the planet's crust.
>I specifically pair it with Reverence of Steel, which can create heavy armor without restrictions, or with less restrictions.
You have spent a total of 3 gift points for marginal survivability game. The Sword Word's Nine Iron Walls lesser gift already handles the "temporary, perfect defense against physical attacks" gimmick far more economically.
>There is a great amount of subtle utility to this, allowing you low level influence across a wide area at a low player level.
Yes, there is. Compared to outright immunity and distortion of all mind-affecting and mind-reading effects, in a setting where Academy of Thought archmages and Command/Deception/Passion-users roam the land? Give me the immunity any day.
>Fate also occupies a special position
Nothing indicates the Undestined to be an antagonist-only faction. The Fate Word's basic benefit is accessible to an Exemplar using Skill Words, and anyone willing to craft a 3-Dominion artifact that grants the basic benefit of the Fate Word. The latter is particularly low-cost for such a major benefit.
If the Beast Word can grant immunity to such effects only with a lesser gift and with Effort temporarily committed, then it certainly should not be available in a broader form as a basic Word benefit.
>"no energy powers"
The Path Through War grants invincibility against "weapon or unarmed attacks" and does not function against "environmental, spell, or magical effect damage." At no point does it mention "energy."
Kevin Crawford has stated that it functions against magical weapons: forum.rpg.net
Therefore, The Path Through War will protect against Fertility's Seeds of Death or the Fire Word's basic effect.
It will not help against Smites, as I have explicitly acknowledged here .
>other builds are optimized for dueling equivalent divine entities
Voice of the Winds builds are not quite as good against singular, major opponents. Against a tetrad of Angelic Ravagers though, you will definitely want someone who can simultaneously injure all four of them with no rolls whatsoever, both as an action from Voice of the Winds and with the free application of the Fray die.
>Any Demigod who specializes into this sort of thing would probably want as a character to do all that fighting and killing by hand.
The fact that they will do so *less effectively* and with *greater cost* (Fear No Steel costs Effort for the day for the immunity) compared to a Voice of the Winds build is a disheartening one.
>It also trivializes Voice of Winds to call it shouting loudly
Voice of the Winds explicitly demands that you shout to activate it. Furthermore, if it is not actually shouting, then that makes it more overpowered for an invincibility build, because then the Sky Word could not grant immunity to it.
Spending Effort for the day to automatically save is quite costly, so you will want to do so as infrequently as possible. It takes a Beast Word lesser gift and at least 1 Effort free to have outright immunity to mind-affecting effects, and that is much larger an investment than a single Word's intrinsic benefit.
That's a very large amount of words to avoid answering a question, especially using an argument as pathetic as the print somehow being "more official" than the PDF.
>cannot do so as well as a Voice of the Winds build.
cannot do so as -quickly-, they will do so precisely as well. If killing the army is time-sensitive on the scale of minutes, then this is a problem, otherwise your battle will occurs on a normal scale and you will be a buzzsaw making your way through the army at the pace of an invincible man.
>quote your linked post
>"no energy powers"
forum.rpg.net
from Krawford himself, who you refer to for many of your arguments. If you insist on ignoring my points to make your own or going back on your own sources, I will just stop debating.
If you want to abuse Fray Dice at a level where you are fighting whole groups of angels, there's more than just Winds that you can abuse (fire word Greaters come to mind)
>Fear No Steel costs Effort for the day for the immunity
fear no steel also offers flat DR from literally everything, which no other power in the game offers.
Likewise with the commitment of Effort your ONLY weakness becomes magical weapons, and if you pair it with Path then you will have TRUE invulnerability, albeit only reliably available at higher levels.
>Voice
you are shouting to invoke the power of the atmosphere to rend your foes apart, that is not "just shouting" and should be understood as significant. Voice of Winds is a Greater Gift and on par with the ability to create Tsunamis or similar mass disasters.
>cannot do so as -quickly-, they will do so precisely as well.
And with greater cost, since Fear No Steel's mundane immunity requires Effort for the day. The slower pace and the greater cost make such an army-slayer ultimately less effective than a Voice of the Winds spammer.
>from Krawford himself, who you refer to for many of your arguments. If you insist on ignoring my points to make your own or going back on your own sources, I will just stop debating.
Energy *powers* like Smites will go through The Path Through War, but energy *attacks* will fall flat if they are considered "magical weapons" as Fertility's Seeds of Death and the Fire Word's intrinsic benefit are.
>fear no steel also offers flat DR from literally everything, which no other power in the game offers.
And while that damage reduction is certainly helpful, a Godbound will still need to rely on the Effort-for-the-day expenditure to be protected against an army.
>Likewise with the commitment of Effort your ONLY weakness becomes magical weapons, and if you pair it with Path then you will have TRUE invulnerability, albeit only reliably available at higher levels.
Fear No Steel and The Path Through War have redundant effects and will not be synergistic. You would be better off with a Voice of the Winds/The Path Through War build and spending your gift points on other benefits once you have the core of that build set up.
>you are shouting to invoke the power of the atmosphere to rend your foes apart, that is not "just shouting" and should be understood as significant.
Shouting very loudly to rend enemies apart is still shouting very loudly.
>Voice of Winds is a Greater Gift and on par with the ability to create Tsunamis or similar mass disasters.
It could really be viewed as two lesser gifts squashed into a single package, since half of the benefit is the long-distance telecommunications and eavesdropping.
>And with greater cost, since Fear No Steel's mundane immunity requires Effort for the day.
please pay attention to what I am making my arguments towards, I realize this is hard with so many topics being discussed at once.
I have been arguing for a Sword user using Path and other Melee skills, not a purely Might user or one fighting an army with Fear No Steel; My comment on Fear No Steel was only for it's effectiveness in general.
>energy *attacks* will fall flat if they are considered "magical weapons" as Fertility's Seeds of Death and the Fire Word's intrinsic benefit are.
Not all energy attacks are treated like this, in fact most aren't.
>I have been arguing for a Sword user using Path and other Melee skills
Relying on The Path Through War and the Fray die alone will take a *terribly* long time compared to blasting away with Voice of the Winds. That could very well be enough time for the army to scrounge together some environmental effect to harm or impede you.
As for other Sword gifts, Thirsting Blade works against only lesser foes, and Cutting the Crimson Road applies only to Mobs of HD of half your level or less. Whereas a Voice of the Winds + Wizard's Wrath spammer can affect anything, these two Sword gifts are more limited in their applicability.
>Not all energy attacks are treated like this, in fact most aren't.
Then you are mostly looking at the likes of Rain of Lightning and Smite, which I have already acknowledged as working in The point is that compared to a more conventionally combat-optimized Godbound, the Voice of the Winds builds has far too much automatic, roll-less damage to spread around against even worthy foes and is able to severely restrict the offensive options of opponents.
It seems that Kevin Crawford has been noticing us in this thread, because they just so happened to have posted this:
forum.rpg.net
Kevin Crawford has ruled that Voice of the Winds breaks The Path Through War, thereby putting an end to that stupid build. Voice of the Winds is still quite strong in conjunction with Wizard's Wrath and Shattering Hand, just not insanely powerful.
The Path Through War is now inapplicable against Bow's Omnipresent Reach's force bolts, Fertility's Seeds of Death, the Fire Word's intrinsic benefit, and so on, thereby making it less impregnable.
I suppose this is a significant improvement to Godbound's overall balance.
Take that, kuso doggy!
Godbound ERP with 2hu as player when, planefag?
How did this meme even start
>Might/Luck/Time
>Demigod of GAR
>Punch through time and space itself to achieve the impossible, break the unbreakable
>Row row, fight the power
You should still see if your GM is willing to allow Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade as reflavored gifts of Luck, Might, or Time. If that is allowed, then the build I would suggest aiming for is:
Luck, Might, or Time: Reflavored Bolt of Invincible Skill (lesser)
Might: Descent of the Mountain (lesser), Thews of the Gods (greater)
Spend two more gift points
This way, you can pick up a medium-sized building and hurl it with Descent of the Mountain for an area attack. If it misses (not unlikely with the -4 attack penalty), you can force it to hit for maximum damage with Bolt of Invincible Skill.
If your GM is unwilling to allow such a reflavoring, then the build above will have to be Bow/Luck/Might or Bow/Might/Time instead.
>human bean talks about a character they made
>2hu: YA BUT BLADE OF UNERRING SKILL THO
>Someone talks about how excited they are to gm a new campaign
>2hu: BE SURE TO SUGGEST NEW PLAYERS USE BOLT OF INVINCIBLE SKILL
>"Hey guys game seems cool what's it like to play?"
>2hu: "TAX TAX TAX"
Joke's on him, I'm implementing the +2 base hit chance house rule specifically to make sure Blade of Unerring Gift Tax isn't 100% necessary on everyone who wants to hit things
>still believing there's such a thing as 'gift tax'
Why are you this retarded?
>still believing characters who wish to engage with combat should contend with a 50% whiff chance against everything even worth rolling combat against because muh OSR
You know you have Fray dice right?
>The answer to having a 50% chance to not do anything in combat every round is to rely on the die every deity and their grandmother gets to begin with
Why do you continue to rely on this rhetoric? The fray dice is a consolation prize for showing up, not a primary means of combat.
Or maybe, just maybe, you could stop telling people that there are 'mandatory' gifts?
>"It's not a gift tax"
>'Yeah it is, because the game's base miss chance is insane, so the only way to meaningfully do stuff in combat as a combat Godbound is to use Gifts that get around attack rolls completely.'
>"You have Fray dice tho"
>'Yeah and so does literally everyone, combat Godbound or not'
>"IT'S NOT MANDATORY IT'S NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOTTTT"
Sure convinced me bro
Not every character is a combat Godbound. They're not required to take anything. And you have Miracles for autohits anyway.
>Not every character is a combat Godbound.
How is this even remotely related to the point that it IS a Gift tax for characters who ARE combat Godbound?
>And you have Miracles for autohits anyway.
>It's a "retardposter continues to argue that choosing to suck is an equally valid decision to not-sucking" episode