Running FATE

Advice for GMing this?

Haven't played it or seen it played (going to be running in the next couple of days optimistically) but I'm looking to it as a system that emphasizes narrative/rule-of-cool stuff without being too mechanically heavy.

The problems I'm seeing are that fate points seem to be a mechanical resource that allows players to essentially veto your decisions/story hooks, which doesn't sound fun for anyone - additionally, the fact that most of the action involves playing the mechanics makes it seem like it'd be easy to get too caught up in the terms of the game and what "moves" are available to you, as well as generating some potential inconsistency in terms of what PCs are capable of at a given time with or without help, and what's going on in the story.

Are these legitimate concerns, or am I overthinking? If they are, what house rules or GMing choices can I make to help mitigate them? Anything else I should know - wisdom from other people who've GMed this system - or should I be looking for a different system entirely?

>fate points seem to be a mechanical resource that allows players to essentially veto your decisions/story hooks

They aren't so much that as they are suggestions for alternate routes for the story to take. When a player spends a Fate point they aren't saying "I decide that doesn't happen". They're saying "I'm gonna try to make something else happen". And that something else has to be related to the Aspect invoked. Luke Skywalker invoked his Force Aspect to get a bonus to his Death Star attack roll. He didn't invoke it to say "Darth Vader crashes his ship".

That said, it's important to make sure your players understand Fate. A lot of people who aren't good at actually seeing the big picture of Fate games go in thinking "I'm Good At Everything" is a valid Aspect.

I also recommend using a different Skill progression system. The skill pyramid system is pretty stupid, in my experience. I usually start players off with a point buy pool of like 20 and give skill increases an exponential point cost. And a hard cap of how high a single skill can be raised at character creation. Then I offer experience points, which the players can spend on either new stunts or more skill ranks.

These are legitimate concerns but the solution is having good players. If you can trust your players to nudge the narrative in constructive directions, FATE works well. If the players can't set aside the "us vs. GM" mentality, your group is missing the point of FATE no matter what house rules you introduce.

I like my group and do my best to play with "good" players or people I think will be able to handle the system; none of the groups I've ever run for have been interested in games that lend themselves easily to powergaming/system mastery approaches.

It's just - I'd prefer to know whether or not the system is sound, whether it's a good choice for a story game with occasional high action, and whether or not it's able to stand without some unspoken code of honor existing among the players not to try to game the system.

> I'd prefer to know whether or not the system is sound, whether it's a good choice for a story game with occasional high action

It is both of those things, though bear in mind it's a very generic system and no matter what you do you will need to homebrew a lot to get a quality game out of it.

> some unspoken code of honor existing among the players not to try to game the system.

It's not a "code of honor". It's whether or not the players are capable of actually understanding the point of Fate. It's actually impossible to powergame in Fate if you have a good, aware GM. That's because you as the GM can dictate what is and isn't an acceptable Aspect/Stunt, and more importantly even if a player invokes his Aspect you get the overall say in how it affects the story. A good example is how most players will save their invokes in case they're up against the wall or if they fucked up on a critical roll. If you're worth your salt, you let them use their Aspect to "fail forward" instead of just succeeding as normal.

As said, a competitive perspective towards the GM is poison to Fate. I remember running a Fate game for a couple of RPG virgins who I've been friends with forever. They were incapable of actually playing it, because their perspective on games is it's just a series of challenges they have to overcome with their stat blocks and if they fail it's because I intentionally orchestrated it. When we switched to Savage Worlds, a much crunchier system, they did a much better job. They couldn't get themselves into the mindset of a writer, which is absolutely critical for Fate.

>allows players to essentially veto your decisions/story hooks,
How? You are mistaken. They buy the use of aspects, rerolls, and sometimes special powers - that is all. The main use is to bring aspects into play.

If your players want to break your game they just have to surrender in every scene. It will make the story boring and the mechanics won't come into play.

You are worrying about the wrong things.

What you should be worrying about:
>How will every player learn to invoke against their character?
>How will every player learn to create an advantage as an action?
>How will all the aspects in play be visually available to everyone?

Play FAE until these questions are answered for your group. Approaches don't hold up for long, but 5 aspects per character is just too many at first.

The important thing is that your players understand the system. It isn't like other games where you can hand them a pregen and tell them whenever they need to roll dice, they have to understand how to invoke aspects, compels, stunts, how the fate point economy works, the whole nine yards, or else the game will grind to a halt.

You really need to keep in mind being proactive, flexible, and knowing how to "fail forward." It's a narrativist game, and it should always emphasize what makes the story more engaginga nd interesting.

Some players coming into it from D&Dalikes try to use Fate Points to help them "win" and that misses the point. Your worry they'll use it to neutralize the story also seems to stem from that mentality, as it's not the way they're supposed to work. Fate is flexible and puts a lot of the specifics in the judgment of the GM and players.

it's good when you go for a narrative game that does not need the usual crunch (like exact positions, etc.)

Speaking of, I'm kinda at a crossroads with FATE right now.

I like a lot of what it does, but sadly my biggest gripe with the system is one of it's core mechanics: Aspects. I really hate Aspects as they seem to me like ways to gamify traditional roleplaying. Like rather than the PCs come up with an insane plan and executing it because their skills aren't up to snuff, they can just use some FATE points and say their character was clever for them. Or the whole creating environmental aspects that can be invoked and such. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

The problem is I think if I played without them I'd more or less just be playing a modified FUDGE.

Should I just nut up and play Savage Worlds or try to cobble together a FATE/FUDGE monstrosity and force my abomination upon my poor players?

Aspects are an awesome catch-call mechanic so that you don't have to have a thousand oage backstory or incredibly niche skill list items, and also tells you a lot about a character at a glance. Compels are a brilliant mechanic that helps to drive drama and they need Aspects to function.

Onyx Path's Storypath system has basically stolen Aspects, and Unknown Armies 3e is doing something incredibly similar. They're the best part of the entire system.

>Like rather than the PCs come up with an insane plan and executing it because their skills aren't up to snuff, they can just use some FATE points and say their character was clever for them.

I don't see how this stops roleplaying or making insane plans. Invoking an aspect more often than not is just a +2 to a skill roll or maybe a reroll if your player rolled absolute dogshit.

You're making it sound like Aspects cause your player to automatically succeed at everything forever.

For anyone who is going to GM FATE, if you plan to introduce a magic system be really fucking careful.

If you go the route where magic is a skill, make sure it does not combine the functionality of two or more skills or is just too versatile in general, since your player will just start to crutch on that skill entirely and never use their others.

I'm still not too convinced. Yeah I know that a +2 or reroll here or there isn't that bad, especially since you gotta take Compels to balance it out, but I don't like the mindset it seems to encourage of generalizing backstory and individuality into a catch-call mechanic. I mean, after all, combat and loot is already streamlined or eliminated so all the time I spent creating battle maps, balancing loot drops etc. can be spent on managing those things. I don't need that to be streamlined as well.

Especially environmental aspects, which to me seems to mean that pretty much the end result of a characters plan will be "Okay you can get a free reroll or +2 now."

You still seem weirdly fixated on the idea that invoking the aspect is the same thing as having a plan when it's just an action that's part of a bigger picture.

well, what do you like about FATE?

no, you're not getting what he says. he says aspects always give the same uniform bonus. Compare this with D&D's feats or 40K RP's talents or GURPS ads & disads. and he's right.

what is the best way to handle combat in FATE? i was thinking about doing it like pathfinder, everyone has initiative, and they all roll.

what are your guys best experience with combat in fate? and what would you recommend?

pic related is what my players want me to run, in case that helps

Make maps, not hex-based maps but zone-based maps. Be sure to make the zones interesting with the use of Zone Aspects, especially if they interact with the opposition in a planned way (like for instance, you have a Flooded Floor zone between you and them, and they're using electricity).

I make my fights highly tailored, not drop-in encounters. Use villains with Stunts that work with Zone and Scene Aspects.

For streamlining I just have a set turn order based on Agility and let everyone adjust their turn's position once per encounter. It's faster than making everyone make Agility rolls. However, agility rolls are also fine.

Always remember that more hits is better than bigger hits unless you're aiming for a OHKO (the OHKO threshold in Fate is [the highest stress track] + [the sum of all available consequence slots] +1). Getting two 1 shift hits is better than getting a 2 shift hit.

Don't be afraid to break the rules a little for mooks. Having 1, 2, 3, and maybe 4-shift stress boxes and 2, 4, and 6-shift consequence slot means it takes several hits to down anyone, and that gets annoying and drags on. Save full-strength for major encounter figures or bosses

I think Aspects reinforce good consistency of character--they constantly remind you of your overarching, significant traits/abilities and the facts of the game at hand.

The [meta]gamification of roleplay is the real shift from traditional games when you realize playing Fate isn't "playing the character" but more like "playing the character's writer". I don't necessarily find this bad.
Just remember that almost all character actions, in any game, are coming from a player. There is always metagaming and gamification in general because the player will know more or understand facts of the game first before filtering them through the mentality of their character.

by zone-based map, do you mean use regular squares? im not very familiar with tabletop terminology and ive been playing for nearly 5 years i like the idea of
> let everyone adjust their turn's position once per encounter
ill definitely try to introduce that into my fate system

i knew pretty much everything else, i didn't specify clear enough, i was curious about stream-lining combat and if turn-based is the best way to do fate combat.

thanks for the advice!

Speaking of FATE, is Diaspora any good?

>fate points seem to be a mechanical resource that allows players to essentially veto your decisions/story hooks, which doesn't sound fun for anyone
It's not. But they will keep doing it. They will reroll every failure, they will retcon every mistake, they will fiat their way out of every minor inconvenience they can. It's incredibly annoying. Ultimately, they also spoil their own fun, but most people can't see that sort of thing, so they will keep doing it.

>it'd be easy to get too caught up in the terms of the game and what "moves" are available to you
That can also be true. Combat does, ironically, become incredibly meta. It's probably the most overtly metagaming system I've seen, and for some players, that can kill roleplaying and encourage them to make purely mechanical choices.

>what house rules or GMing choices can I make to help mitigate them?
Not much. Make most enemies have only 1 or 2 Stress, so they go down in one hit. That will limit the effect stacking and meta gaming in combat. Try to build adventures around hitting your players' weaknesses as much as possible. It does in a sense further advance the meta stuff, but it also can encourage role play when done right.

>Anything else I should know
The worst thing about FATE is that most players can't come up with three dimensional characters and represent them with varied Aspects. They just can't. It's based more on talent than experience, and some people don't have the ability to build narrative characters in that way. Unless everyone in your group is a skilled GM or writer, they will probably struggle with the game from start to finish. FATE is based around a very simple narrative concept: if I fail, that's GOOD, because it's more interesting than success. Any good storyteller understands this. But most rolplayers do not, and that makes the game very hard for them to excel at.

>A lot of people who aren't good at actually seeing the big picture of Fate games go in thinking "I'm Good At Everything" is a valid Aspect.

Literally had a guy show up to a game with the Aspect "Nothing I Can't Do". Left me speechless, how utterly he had failed to grasp the point of the system. And of course, after playing for three years, he was still just as oblivious.

>"Nothing I Can't Do

Man, though, you can compel the hell out of that. Guy won't have any Fate points left for all the buying out of insane situations he'll have to do.

Just something like this (I know, it's a shitty MS paint shit, but it works) - this one being a rather straightforward one, of course they can be more complicated, but even something like this can help players figure out where things are.

I'm with on this one. Aspects sometimes require a bit of clever reading to get the most use out of them. I wouldn't take something like "Nothing I Can't Do" as a literal statement - I'd take it as a metaphorical one. The character thinks he's invincible. You could Compel the everloving hell out of that by making him basically unable to grasp subtlety or tactics or avoiding any obviously bad situation.

>You approach a Doorway of Obvious Trap. The BBEG is on the other side.
>We step back from the doorway.
>GM holds out a Fate Point
>Because there's Nothing You Can't Do, you're tempted to just kick in the Doorway of Obvious Trap...

are you just talking about drawing a picture for your players? cause i already do that, you just used the term "zone-based maps" and i had no idea what you were talking about

Ironically, Fate is better for newbies than experienced players because experienced players will bring the win-or-die mindset to it. I run a game where two of the people in the game have literally never played a TTRPG before and a third comes from nanowrimo's forums and they're the best at Fate because they understand their character can fail without detracting from the game.

Sorry, maybe I was unclear. I mean Zones as in how Fate handles the concept. For instance in that map, Outer Field, Trench, Inner Field, and Fortification are all Zones.

Zones can have special rules, Aspects that can be Invoked/Compelled, or other such things.

I just mean base movement and position off of the Zones of the map rather than, for example, a hex grid.

Did you try directly asking them how it could be Compelled? Is it possible they thought of something you didn't, or interpreted it differently? I hardly think someone who has played Fate for three years doesn't know what Aspects are unless the GM has utterly, utterly failed to even attempt to explain it. Or they're too retarded to play.

Fate's rulebook specifically says good aspects are double-edged. It's not really a matter of not getting the concept of the system, that's just plain failing to read the rules.

>what is the best way to handle combat in FATE?

>Mandatory Threadly Post

File Related, required in some part or another to make FATE combat non-garbage.
Heavy and Precise attacks, and the related rules on Style Attack/Defense moreso even.

>The problems I'm seeing are that fate points seem to be a mechanical resource that allows players to essentially veto your decisions/story hooks

I stopped reading there.

If your players are looking to use any excuse to say no to you, you're in your rights to tell them to leave the table.

If that leaves you an empty table, so be it. They were SHIT roleplayers.