Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

People Who Did Literally Nothing Wrong, Unlike Arthas edition

Discuss the lore of the Warcraft universe and its potential uses in TTRPGs.

Previous thread:

nice oxymoron OP

PROTECT ME, VOL'JIN

I don't know why this makes me laugh so much. Garrosh's face though has to be the best part though.

Needs more Garrosh

How difficult would it be to get an audience with the various racial leaders?

I feel like getting a chance to talk to high tinker Mekkatorque is probably much easier than getting to talk to Magni Bronzebeard (before he was crystallized), but surely each race would have their own set of hoops to jump through to get a chance to talk to their leader

you just gotta walk into the throne room and click on them user. Totally not hard.

I'd imagine Mekkatorque has a queue ticket system in place, so you're probably going to be waiting in a line for a while.

Sylvanas is unapproachable unless you're Forsaken or she comes to you.
Baine can freely be met in his hut.
Lor'thermar requires an official audience, if only because the guards insist on it.
Vol'jin, when he was alive, could unofficially be met whenever, but usually you have to pass your message to a couple trolls before they give you a time to meet.

So the nathrezim/dreadlords are the masters of scheming and plotting and getting people to do whatever they want.

The sign of a perfectly planned scheme usually doesn't involve getting caught. Has anyone considered that certain events happened the way they did due to their influence, and they never were outed?

It would certainly explain why the army of light was marching on the black temple just as the Illidari gain a keystone that would give them access to Argus. But everything goes according to the plan and Illidan's soul delivered right to KJ, and the demon hunters who threaten them all get locked up.

As the saying goes, it's only lying/cheating if you get caught. In a perfect world, a nathrezim only reveals themselves as a final power play against their enemy.

Well, that's because most PCs are King Badass of Eat My Shit Mountain, so they can come and go whenever and wherever they want.

I'm pretty sure that there were more than the 3 from the WC3 campaign and Mal'Gannis working in Lordaeron.

Maybe one operating in Stranbad with the hand of Argus or whatever was there prior to Cataclysm. Maybe in Stromgard too. Still its easy to look at things and see a Dreadlord when there isn't.

I know Malfurion isn't technically the leader, but he holds such considerable influence over the night elves he basically is one. Regardless, he would be absolutely impossible to get an audience with, due to napping in the barrow downs, or he would be off traveling in some remote forest.

A random druid exploring the emerald dream has a better chance of getting to see Malfurion than any diplomatic delegation.

>WHERE IS STORMRAGE?! I MUST HAVE A WORD WITH THAT PURPLE BEANSTALK!
>SHHHHHH! Please, your excellence, keep your voice down. Master Stormrage will be unable to see you, in any case?
>AND BLOODY WHY NOT?
>He's having a nap. Night elves, druids especially, are very particular about their, ehm, sleep. It's an Emerald Dream thing; you understand.

On the one hand, this seems like an ass pull to justify "Illidan dindu nothing."

On the other, it would mean the dreadlords actually accomplished something other than fucking with the Scarlet Crusade since WC3.

So I'm torn.

To be fair, when have you ever seen a succubus work as an intelligence agent, like the Exodar database claims it is?

Too busy gathering cum instead of intel

>Mekkatorque
Explain the purpose of your meeting to a secretary, fill out the form they give you, take a queue ticket and wait your turn. Alternatively, explain the purpose of your meeting to one of the other gnomish councillors and they may be able to fast-track you through the queue. But while faster, this is much less reliable

>Magni/Council of Three Hammers
Fill out the pre-requisite forms (which may take several hours, there are a lot of forms involved) and present a gift "worthy of a mountain king". The gift need not actually be highly valuable, but the act of giving a gift to the king shows that you respect the authority of Ironforge

>Anduin/Varian
Arrive at Stormwind keep, explain the purpose to the guard, then to the official the guard summons, then to the lord the official summons, then wait for the king to see you. This wait may take several days and no one is going to tell you how long you have to wait. If you are not waiting in the right place when the king can see you, you lose the right to speak to the king and must start again from the guard.

>Tyrande Wisperwind
She wanders Darnassus at night, just walk up and talk to her if you see her. She is always surrounded by guards though, and one false move may result in you getting an arrow in the back.

>Prophet Velen
If he wants to speak with you, he will meet you as soon as you enter the Exodar, if not, you will never be able to find him and should give up sooner rather than later.

>Genn Greymane
In Gilneas, you would have to spend several months desperately trying to navigate the impenetrable mess of Gilnean bureaucracy. After Cataclysm it's gotten much easier, simply shout down his guard and start talking to him. His guards are worgen though, so you'll have to be pretty good at shouting

After the Stonetalon mountains quest chain i always imagined Garrosh being cool with the Druids.

Like if he had a chance to go completely wreck a Nelf settlement he would gladly kill all the huntresses, but if he saw any sleeping druids he would just tuck them better under their blankets.

As I see it, there's no way warlock demons don't report to their true bosses what they saw while "serving" on Azeroth when they return to Twisting Nether when desummoned. And... voidwalkers aren't afflicted with Legion, felhunters are too stupid, infernals are mindless burning rocks, imps are too crazy to be useful, dreadguards can be only summoned for a short time for one battle, and felguards are too focused on being warriors... who's left to serve as Legion spies? That's right, pic related

I like to think of Warcraft succubi as a failed experiment by the Legion that got a bit out of hand

They were engineered to be intelligent agents, with mind control capabilities and invisibility, but they were made to be "attracted to power" to prevent them from using their mind control on demons that outrank them, and this made them easily manipulated by mortal warlocks

So now, like so many other demonic races, they're just burning legion cannon fodder

>She wanders Darnassus at night, just walk up and talk to her if you see her. She is always surrounded by guards though, and one false move may result in you getting an arrow in the back.
I think you mean
>She wanders Darnassus at night, enjoying the local fauna and/or possibly flora

>enjoying the local fauna and/or possibly flora
>possibly flora

Last I checked, warlock-dominated demons are fully under the warlock's control and don't answer to the Legion. In fact, if the wiki is to be believed, a dominated succubus in particular will fall madly in love with their new master and will serve him/her ceaselessly; they may even have a bit of a jealous streak if they see their master chatting up some other bitch.

As for Legion succubi, I imagine they follow the tactics of any other agent and go under deep cover to gather their intel. Plus, I could imagine a warlock sending their own succubus into similar situations to gather data.
That Scarlet Crusade armorer chick you saw that other crusader fucking atop a barrel when they thought no one was looking? Succubus.
That street walker you see chatting up the guards in Stormwind? Succubus.
That cute Kirin Tor mage wearing what she calls a "mage's combat harness" under her robe when it's basically a fancy slingshot bikini? Succubus.

I think the Illidan dindu nuffin thing is a bit overblown. He did pull a lot of decidedly evil shit, like taking advantage of every downtrodden group that would follow him, binding Akama's soul to guarantee the loyalty of the broken, creating more fel orcs, enslaving the nether drakes, etc.

The ultimate crux of it though is that he did it to try to fight the Legion, with his "by any means necessary" approach.

It's pretty consistent with his character, he was completely ready and willing to break the entire continent of Northrend in half to stop Arthas.

>warlock-dominated demons are fully under the warlock's control
TRIFFLING GNOME

[Spoiler]Welp, time to go fap to more wow porn

The problem is that the Illidan book exonerates him of literally everything, and even gives him credit for a couple things that aren't expressed in the games.

Oh shit, I haven't read the book, does it really ruin his character that badly?

At least, where the PCs are concerned. They're smart enough not to summon someone like Jaraxxus and expect to not get pasted. PC warlocks are much more capable than your average warlock.

Considering Mekkatorque doesn't really have a throneroom, and is just kind of hanging around in Tinkertown, I don't think he would be too hard to meet.

It doesn't really. The book notes all the awful shit Illidan did, but then Illidan and his coterie of Demon Hunters say "it's worth it to destroy the Legion", literally nobody else says that and they just see what the players saw, Illidan defiling Karabor, making dumb decisions and enslaving Demons.

Because Big J wasn't dominated, he was summoned. See, back in vanilla warlocks had the ability to summon infernals and doomguards as super strong mobs worthy of being the big boss of a raid trash pack. You had to separately enslave them, otherwise you just dropped a mindless killing machine on top of a bunch of unsuspecting civilians without any control over them. Assumption right now is that PC wlocks are powerful and smart enough to enslave the demons without much of a problem and now with legion they've proven themselves strong enough to seize the power of a pit lord to control an entire army of demons.

I'll give you one example. At the beginning of TBC, the Alliance and Horde are surging into Outland and crashing into the Legion lines at the foot of the Dark Portal. As it turns out, the Legion were about to flank the joint forces at the Stair of Destiny, ending Azeroth's invasion of Outland before it even starts.

Illidan single-handedly stops the flank attempt and repels the Legion's would-be offensive. The Alliance and Horde never learn of this ever happening. The PCs would never have made it to Outland if it weren't for Illidan.

All without succumbing to the base lust for power that consumes all lesser warlocks, which makes them weaker and more prone to influence. PC warlocks are commendable for their self-control, and that is what makes them terrifying.

What's wrong with it though? Illidan and the Legion are enemies, of course he'd attack them. Plus he had no beef with the alliance/horde, so letting them come to Outland just makes it harder for the Legion. It's only later thanks to Kael'Thas' machinations that the Illidari and Horde/Alliance become enemies.

Also the PC warlocks are willing to work with anybody who is against their foes, whether lore wise it was for the sake of gaining more power safely or because they want to protect their home, while every other warlock organization is full of backstabbing. Hell, in Legion the meat-shield followers you get, Acolytes of the Black Harvest, are implied to kill each other during the mission for the sake of power rather than being KIA by the enemies.

>Warlock mortal minions actively sabotage each other in the dash for power
Fuckin' idiots. No other class has to deal with this bullshit.

That stuff with succubi being in love with their summoners was from the RPG, IIRC, not canon anymore.

Fucking Blizzard and their retcons, nobody know's what's supposed to be proper lore.

Chronicles and the game is now the canon.

Nothing's saying they CAN'T be madly in love, mostly because it never really comes up in game.

Anyone saying the book makes Illidan a dindu hasn't really read it. If anything it makes him more of an asshole. The Maiev situation is the clearest sign of this.

>Illidan's Imprisonment:
>Good bit of room to pace and think
>Has a bed
>wards to keep him from getting hungry or thirsty, or even getting injured
>Maybe even a table
>Probably still got to eat and was surrounded by 'curious' Watchers
>Was never even tortured, just kept there

>Maiev's Imprisonment
>Chained to a wall, almost naked
>Dreadlord constantly going highly in depth of how he'll torture her when Illidan gives the word
>Food and drink literally pissed in before given to her
>Wouldn't be able to move to furniture if it was there
>Illidan constantly telling himself that he has to get to torturing her at some point.
>'She doesn't have 10,000 years to live so I have to fit in as much torture as possible'

Illidan's a fucking insane asshole. It's no wonder Maiev went crazy after she got back and saw people ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE HIM being let back into Darnassus.

so what are the best new demons in Legion?
the new Mo'arg, inquisitors, jailers, or Kerrigan: fel corrupted edition?

Mo'arg, definitely.

Jailers. Like demon Chinese people with the beards

>Mo'arg
Real neat.

>Inquisitors
Their voices are cool.

>Jailers
I don't care much for them, but they're not a bad addition.

>Spiders
The only one I've seen was the one in the DH starting area. They sound interesting though.

There are a bunch in Azuna with the demon hunters

There's one in violet hold too.

Nice lying about illidans imprisonment.
The book opens saying Illidan spent 10k years alone, no food, no conversations, no furniture, no water and all damage he does to himself is healed so that he cant commit suicide. And from the sounds of the anti-magic shackles, he couldn't see either.

He's just a pro maiev shill.

>Crazy dumb bitch tries to murder Illidan, gets everyone she knows killed on a wild goose chase lusting after that dindu cock, sabotages his attempts to save us from WotLK and intentionally tries to leave Tyrande, her rightful liege, to die.
cool man
>Illidan does nothing wrong and gets thrown into gay baby jail for all eternity because Malfurion is a cunt
douchebag fag

You

I blame you for how stupid Blizzard got about Illidan in Legion

It's your fault that they decided he was an angel sent from heaven who could do no wrong

>Not accepting our lord and saviour Illidan who sacrificed himself for our sins

>Not praying every morning thanking our lord and saviour Illidan for making the sun rise

>Not thanking our lord and saviour Illidan before each meal for the food He provides

>Using our lord and saviour Illidan's name in vain

>Not being glad Maiev was imprisoned in h̶e̶l̶l̶ Black Temple by our lord and saviour Illidan

>lord and savior
>Illidan
>not The Light

>Not actively looking for ways to rescue our lord and savior Illidan in game

>Not abandoning everything to join the Demon Hunters as followers of our lord and savior

>Not sacrificing everything
>Inb4 DKs' """""""sacrifice""""""""", they still have eyes don't they?

DKs never sacrificed anything, they were resurrected after dying in a battle they chose to fight. All they sacrificed was an afterlife, Demon Hunters sacrificed that and however long they had to live before joining the Interstellar Biker gang in the sky.

thats not arthas.

>Buff up my C'thun
>He whispers "well met"

And also "That was a mistake."

C'Thun confirmed Paladin?

Whenever our Lord and Master Illidan (pbuh) does anything slightly endsjustifythemeansy, the Hypocritical Morality Brigade rolls in to lock him away again.
He's going to eat a second Skull of Gul'dan and turn into a double-demon and everyone is going to act like he betrayed the Light and we'll have to kill him as a raid boss again, before it's revealed posthumously that he did nothing wrong.
Again.
And it's all ~-~your fault-~-.

You're the reason characters can only be held accountable for their actions in a binary state. Dindu or Raid Boss.

DKs had a minor sacrifice thrust upon them

DHs chose to make a major sacrifice for the greater good

Honestly I think it's pretty equal, a small sacrifice you were forced to make vs a large sacrifice you chose to make

I don't blame him. Being fed 20 pounds of ass and pussy sounds very appealing.

What

Illidan is a tragic figure, he's made plenty of mistakes and made personal sacrifices for the greater good. But he's also shown distinct tendencies towards jealousy and greed

He is not a great untouchable hero, nor is he a pure evil bastard. He's an anti-hero, with all the teenage edge and shitty fanfics that come with it

That major sacrifice is pretty unselfish though, even if it was chosen. The point of being a DH is to fight the Legion so others don't have to. On the other hand I wouldn't describe being an undead abomination as "small". There's no need for a comparison really.

>DHs do major sacrifices
>blood elf junkies that want to OD on fel to gain more power
>sacrificing

So now that the number of uncorrupted Black Dragons has literally increased 200%, do you think they'll start popping up more from now on?

>cataclysm hits us over and over about how the black dragons are all but doomed as wrath is the only one alive
>conveniently placed cache of black dragon eggs.

>tfw it was originally going to be him in the quest, but the devs thought he couldn't earn the Highmountain's trust that fast
>not having him kill/replace an already existing sage named Ebonhorn

I'm sad.

Sage Ebonhorn was more believable imo wrathion is just a little shit doing what he wants too

Considering how much more influential the elements are on Draenor as appose to their rather chaotic nature in azeroth Shaman and Druids are probably really important. Garrosh was probably taught growing up not to harm them if he didn't want the whole balance to be fucked up again like when Draeno split.

What's the purpose of choosing between Kayn and Altruis in the DH starting quests? As far as I can tell it doesn't really change all that much.

What if Blizz is using this as a poll of player opinions on Illidan to direct the story development?

>What's the purpose of choosing between Kayn and Altruis in the DH starting quests?

Changes the story.
If you choose Altruis then you recruit Akama.
If you choose Kayn then you rape Akama and recreate the Shade of Akama.

based kayn knows what's up

I know that game.
Dusty was cute.

>We'll never get to introduce Warthion to his big brother
>Wrathion won't get super deffensive about staying head of the black dragons, all two of them
>Ebonhorn will never laugh and say he just wants to pass the peace pipe with Tauren all day and Wration can stay the head
>They will never have begrudging weekend trips where Ebon tries to teach Wrath about other cultures and Wrath just wants to go home and eat people.

Genn acknowledged as supreme dictator of the alliance when?

Return to ancient hostilities when?

Alliance and Horde returning to vicious and bloodthirsty enemies when? People choosing to die before cooperating? Locking doors and setting buildings on fire?

Genn v Garrosh would be a good move for the lore.

Or an actually schism of the alliances shifting which groups are aligned with which. Blood elves to return to the alliance, night elves to be slave race, worgens to overtake human settlements, and gnomes banished to horde. Pandas genocided outright.

>Genn acknowledged as supreme dictator of the alliance when?
>Genn turning heel so he can be put down like the Alliance's Garrosh and no worgen will ever be mentioned ever again forever (except maybe Fiona)
Please just fuck off.

>only the horde is allowed to have big meanie no no's as leader

>but garrosh still wouldn't commit genocide

>Genn acknowledged as supreme dictator of the alliance when?
Nah man, Genn works best when he can be on the front lines ripping and tearing with his elite band of Worgen.
The only time a faction leader is aloud to be near the front is when they die, except trall but he isn't aloud to be anything but perfect so he doesn't count.

Wait, so, the tauren in the comic is a black dragon?
Huh.
Daf..

you're not funny

Death Knights made no conscious sacrifice. They were the sacrifice. They now walk the land of the living, bearing the curse of undeath, unable to find peace and thirsting for battle. They have sacrificed nothing, rather, they have everything taken from them.

Demon Hunters willingly chose it all - to follow Illidan, to bind a demon to their flesh and soul, to damn themselves to the same eventual fate as the demons they loathe or worse, become one of them should they fail, and knowing all this, all the dangers and struggles that await them each day, they still did it. That is a conscious sacrifice.

This is by no means saying that Death Knights have it easy. Arguably they share a similar fate as the Demon Hunters, as they are both unholy abominations that have no place on the mortal world, serving as living weapons to ward off a greater fate. Ironically, just as Illidan and Arthas realised they could be fighting each other to a standstill forever, so can their scions both in terms of fighting prowess and how much it sucks to bear their own damned fates.

Death Knights know much about sacrifice, for they were the ones slain on the altar in the name of the Lich King. Demon Hunters have sacrificed everything, so when they see the bullshit the people of Azeroth are always up to with the red vs blue, they are quite justified in asking what exactly have they given for the cause of destroying the Legion that can even remotely compare.

>whether you choose hell or not changes the end point. Being in hell.

At least edgy edgy illidans can sleep at night knowing they chose their fate. Death knights are forced to exist against their will.

>muh sacrifice
>most of them are blood elves who were looking for that extra kick because they wanted to play with fel magic.
>night elf niggers had to choose between dying in swamps or becoming illidan's servants
>knowing anything about sacrifice.

It is pretty clear that Genn is not going to even contest the leadership of the Alliance, both out of respect for Varian's will as well as knowing full well, that on some level Sylvanas and Nathanos are right, that he is on some level a beast that will stop at nothing to get his vengeance. So he does exactly that, giving the Gilneans the thing that many crave so much - bloody vengeance on their hated foe.

>anduin wants to setup forsaken internment camps
>he wants Greymane to oversee it
Yea, Anduin, the hippy faggot, would never make a request that would be unbelievably stupid or against the core of Gilnean mythos.

Somewhat related to the thread edition, do the Naaru know that literally all blood elf paladins are siphoning power off of a captured Naaru? Specifically, do the Sha'tar know?

Yes, I'm playing TBC. How did you guess?

Yes, they know. Muru got captured willingly as part of a convoluted plan to bring the Blood Elves back properly into the Light and reignite the Sunwell.

Nah man, that's stupid. The whole High King thing was bad enough, and you want to hand ALL power to one man? The Alliance is, well, an Alliance. Think member states and cooperation, not vassals and commands.

That's their strength.

>Genn vs Garrosh
Garrosh is dead. And not even the 'can come back' kind of dead.
>Blood Elves return to the Alliance
could be okay, but the Horde would lose substantial amounts of players
>Night Elves to be slave race
that's not something I see the Alliance wanting to do, let along being capable of
>Worgens to overtake human settlements
the Worgen are just cursed Humans. It doesn't even breed true.
>Gnomes banished to the Horde
but why though?
>Pandas genocided outright
but WHY though?

Gilneas WILL rise again.

I wouldn't mind having an Alliance raid, but Genn is literally the only relevant character representing his race, which has already been almost entirely ignored (two camps and a tree in the expansion they were introduced, nothing in Mists, nothing in WoD, Genn being a fuckup for most of Legion).

I think fascist Genn would be cool but I don't want worgen made more invisible than they already are.

So DHs and DKs are rivals like Illidan and Arthas (sorta) were? That's cool, I can see it.

That brings up an interesting question, since Legion has introduced so much class-focused content, is there any conflict between different classes in it?

Spoilers for Shaman questline:

So, given that Thrall has given up leadership of the Earthen Ring, dropped the Doomhammer in the fucking Maelstrom and admitted that ever since he fucked Garrosh the elements won't heed his call, are we finally rid of him?

Also, I am super pleased that Thrall actually got punished for breaking the rules of Mak'gora

We don't deserve the Naaru, do we?

>You will never get to be a worgen wearing scarlet crusade attire and purging non-worgens from azeroth

That's just what the Naaru want you to think. Don't fall for their lies, user. They'll come back to their true masters in time.

No one is worthy, boy. But the Light loves us anyway.

>but why though?
Because fuck gnomes and pandas.

>alliance wouldn't enslave night elves
Literally the best sex slave race.

>garrosh is dead
I know, I was just implying I liked garrosh as a horde leader. He wasn't orc jesus. He actually did want to conquer azeroth instead of just be content with endless attrition of his people.

>blood elves would bleed horde of players
Yea, that's why horde gets gnomes. I'd have genocided gnomes too, but gotta keep the balance.

>sleep at night
If the demon within even allows that. Do remember that all those subjugated demons want is to get out of the flesh prison and do demon things and so do anything and everything in order to fuck the demon hunter over. A death knight is already at his terminus, there is no way his fate can get any worse, he's already dead.

Those who wanted an extra kick just went with Kael'thas - that was the path of the least resistance to get that sweet fel high. Why the fuck would they go through all the demon hunter training, the rituals with an 80% mortality rate and then risk their own souls for the rest of their lives when there were far simpler alternatives available. There's one thing about junkies - they seek the simplest way to get their next high, and when there's a guy who doesn't give a fuck about what you do, so long as you stand on your post, wear the tabard and follow him to open up a portal for KJ, why would you ever follow the other absolute madman who seems to be pitting demons against demons, demands high standards from his chosen disciples?

Also,
>night elves
>following the goddamn Betrayer for any other reason than smoldering hatred for demons
Do remember that the only night elves in Outland before the portal opened were either some stragglers that willingly followed Illidan through or Maiev's forces. Once again the path of least resistance is simple, and it in no way is following this guy who has been demonized for possibly all of their adult lives as the absolutely last guy to trust, who in turn of your service demands rigorous training, chaining a demon to your immortal soul and the whole nine yards.

The Illidari demon hunters are all one hundred percent willing members, who knew exactly what they were signing up for. Altruis is an outlier who pussied out and rather than finishing his job, decided to fuck around and kill his own kin, choosing feeling good about himself over fighting the Legion.

>So, given that Thrall has given up leadership of the Earthen Ring, dropped the Doomhammer in the fucking Maelstrom and admitted that ever since he fucked Garrosh the elements won't heed his call, are we finally rid of him?
No, if they wanted to get rid of him they would have killed him. When people were speculating that Thrall would be one of the heroes to die in Legion after the announcement, the devs immediately came out to say that he had merely "given up hope."

He'll be back to his old self by the time Legion wraps up.