We've heard it all before, that 4e is the worst edition, or that it's the best edition, or whichever...

>Halfling Swordmage
Horrible.

Human and Halfling start flipping through the books when I start asking about ships for sale and where we can get fancy clothing. Party looks at me funny but the DM rolls with it and says we could get a decent sized vessel and still have a fair amount of money left. Drow looks at party and says one word - "Pirates". Team joins in on the fun!

We buy a vessel, we get cool clothes and we take our first mark. We're asked to go to some city and meet up with someone to get some info. But as we head there we encounter a ship and we just have to go pirate on them!

It's an odd vessel, strange design, but we attack. Turns out it belonged to a secret Tiefling faction and on board is a prince of the Dragonborn empire. We agree to escort said prince back to his empire for a hefty fee. Trip was uneventful but the pay was really good! Getting payed, we decide to follow up on that lead and head in only to find that the informant we were to meet is dead.

Getting some clues from the body, the room it was in, and some other things (can't quite remember what right now) we figure it was some sort of cultist attack and we head out to their island.

We barely make it back alive. Long story short, lots of crazy magic pools that summon up masses of monsters and we barely escape and are glad that the pools have a long respawn time. Getting back to the main island, we decide to try our luck with something else for the time being as we try to figure out how to handle that cult.

That's when we learn that someone connected to the cult is heading to some odd island that fighting tourneys are held on. As we ask around some more, find out that this asshole also was the one who had tried to capture the half-elf babe with crazy vortex elemental powers.

We head off to Back-Fat Isle, named after the walruses and seals that beach there. Lots of boats, lots of contenders.

Continued...

We wait until early afternoon and board his ship and find a strange cask of some viscous liquid in it and steal it but other than that nothing. Deciding to test our own mettle in the fight, we join the team event.

We handily win over the next short while and get to the team finals where we face off against some fuckers. Tough fight but we eke out a win narrowly. Getting a good amount of pay, we need it to pay another ship to take us back since our crew has apparently mutinied and made off with our ship (those glorious bastards!). En route we decide to see what this viscous liquid does.

Pouring some into a mug, we berate, tease and outright bully one of the sailors into drinking it. Drow steps back and grins as the nasty brownish goop goes down the sailors gullet.

And good thing too as he transforms into a raging treant and starts rampaging on deck. Fight was hard but we break the mast some and knock him overboard. Spending the next few days in silence, me and the fighter start thinking up ways to use the liquid evilly.

As we get back to the town, we decide to ask around for more info on the cultist dude and his strange liquid. We make our way to pawn shop sort of place and head in to ask questions.

Not sure what happened but the Drow gets pissed by something the pawn shop dude says and, after seeing his pregnant daughter, swears a dark promise on his house. That night he breaks in to kidnap the woman, have her give birth and raise the child in the dark and cruel ways of the drow.

Or that was the plan but the bitch turned out to be married to the town guard captain who was really strong. We do kill him but with the guard now bearing down on us, we levitate out and set some roofs on fire to distract them.

The halfling, meanwhile, who is a member of the local mages college, the Inkwells, has started asking around about the woman with elemental powers.

Continued...

Yup. Don't you remember old D&D bards?

Come to find out she is basically a minor noble and her family is wanting her back. Heading into the college, we find her in basically a coma and being tortured to siphon her power but it isn't working too well. Halfling flips shit, demands they turn her over and the archmage says that they would do so but the halfling would be expelled.

Taking the expulsion, we haul the woman off and return her to her family. Halfling takes no payment (little asshole) but we do agree to a favor to be named later. Returning to town, we get a message from the guy who wanted us to steal that old war banner.

Find out he had had it stolen and wants it back. "WTF?" He states he had left his home and came back to find it broken in and his shit stolen. He has learned the banner was taken back to the temple and my drow decides it's time for easy money again.

Sneaking in, it was easier this time. But as we get into the reliquary, the doors slam shut and he curses about being double-crossed. Sure as shit, room had illusions on it and was filled with temple guards. Looking around the room, DM describes it as having banners and holy symbols on three walls and a massive stained glass window overlooking the slightly bubbly caldera of the volcano.

Take my chance and bash out the window like a madman. DM laughs and says my levitate ability only works for one round and my character is basically dead. I laugh right back and show him my most recent character update from leveling - "Continuous Levitation."

Levitate out, make it back to the quest dude and slit his throat and steal some shit. Change clothes, sneak away.

We find out the cultist dude is apparently trying to make a portal to the Elemental Chaos. Not sure how we learned that, I missed that session, but we are staking his place out. This is bad since that small nation with the H-Bomb? Yeah, they have forbidden inter-planar travel for the world for a belief that it is slowly eroding reality for the world.

Continued...

>I'm the dumb faggot who assumes I know what other people play

I played it, it was awful. Fights take to long. Monsters are fucking damage sponges and players get tons of healing so combat never feels lethal for anyway.

We stake his place out and decide it is time to fuck him up. But before we could, dude escapes and runs off to Back-Fat Isle again for another tournament! But we have unfinished business before we leave...

Convincing the party to assist the drow in breaking into the pawn shop again, he swears he saw rare and mystical items but is really trying to kill everyone in there. And we get attacked...

Pregnant woman had slipped away and her father had called in some cousins of his, big bruiser bastards. We kill one, kill the father and have to flee... AGAIN! Damn town guard was keeping extra patrols in the area now. Fucking off to the docks, we pay to get to Back-Fat Isle with no questions asked.

We learn that this cultist dude is powerful, but we are head strong and decide to face him down in the ARENA OF (DIS)HONORABLE COMBAT. All three of us jump him and he summons in some shit. Fight is pretty epic but my Drow levitates up and just starts sniping the asshole. He flees and we get payed up again.

But as we try to figure out what to do next we get invited back to his place for a meeting. We demand it be a public place and they agree.

Come to find out the guy is trying to end the cold war, restore the "natural order" of the world by allowing inter-planar travel and had already gotten one group across the veil of worlds into the Elemental Chaos and they are working to get some fuck-huge portal open on their end (they were our second party, we were playing the two parties simultaneously in 2 week segments). Promises are made, blood oaths taken, and we decide to assist him. Firstly, we need to get some rare alchemical agent from cultist isle (turns out they were a cruel off shoot branch of his organization or something).

Heading back, we get overwhelmed again, the human fighter and my Drow Rogue falling against a veritable wave of Grell monsters. Halfling escapes narrowly.

We then focused on the EE campaign, but that is a story for another time!

No. Started with 3.5 and never found anyone with whom to play either the older editions or OSR games.

in AD&D you had to get levels in fighter, then rogue, then druid, and then you'd be able to take bard levels, and you basically only got some druid spells and some bardic music

Right. Not much worse than some of the PrC fuckery in 3.5.

biggest difference is in older editions you couldn't find information whether what you're trying to do is shit or usable.
With 3.5, you could read up that 90% of prestige classes are utter shit, and have no reason to exist

So the biggest difference is the internet, i.e. it has nothing to do with the games themselves?

Kinda but not really. "Builds" weren't really a thing in early AD&D 1e and even early AD&D 2e, but it started to be a thing with the arrival of Kits and stuff. 3e though made it pretty much apparent with their feat taxes, prestige classes and new multi-classing rules and such. Fighters such, but you could use dips into them to get certain feats and fast BAB to get that prestige class you wanted for instance.

I'm still not seeing how that makes the older editions worse than 3.5.

The balance is sorta all over the place in od&d. Its main issues are that everything has completely separate and sometimes unintuitive mechanics. Things like finding hidden doors and picking locks working on absolutely different mechanics as well as things being poorly explained.

That said, retroclones generally fix all of these problems and allow the design of the games to really shine. Things like bards being its own class and the sort of houserules that became common after 30 years of play.

3.5 has similar problems. Especially the first one.

Still not seeing it.

desu, a lot of the issues in 3.5 were things inherited from older editions. Things like unified mechanics and whatnot are usually used in retroclones as well. The balance is imo worse in 3.5 though. Spellcasting classes had a lot of restrictions and less spells overall compared to 3.5 while martial classes were a lot more beastly. A 1e fighter is like a 3.5 fighter with a lot of feats built in, all good saves and a comparatively higher hp since damage was lower in older editions.

Dude, are you just looking to be eternally triggered bitch, user?

If so, nothing can convince you of anything.

Well, I'm waiting for an explanation as to why OD&D is worse than 3.5, but all I'm getting is that the two are roughly on par, with 3.5 being worse in some areas.
Not triggered, just genuinely curious.

You must have missed the explanation as to why OD&D is worse than 3.5. It happened a few posts above.

You're kind of acting like a troll at this point, especially when people are going out of their way to explain things to you just so you can willfully ignore them.

You really, really don't understand. 3rd edition was revolutionary when it was released because it actually unified the mechanics. You decide what you want to do, add/subtract the relevant modifers, and then roll a D20 vs. a number the DM thinks of.

OD&D/AD&D is a mess mechanic wise. There's no unified system for ANYTHING. Allow me to share a small excerpt from The Tomb of Horrors:

>All pit traps throughout the Tomb, except where noted to the contrary, are concealed by a counter-weighted trap door that opens as soon as any person steps on it. Thrusting with force upon these trap doors with a pole reveals them 1-4 on 1d6. They may be discovered in other ways as with other traps.
>Those who step upon one of the concealed trap doors fall into the pit unless they pass a special saving throw based on their Dexterity. Unlike normal saving throws, this one is made on percentile dice (D100). PCs have a 1% chance to save per point of Dexterity, with an additional 1 % for each point above 12. Thus, a character with Dex 16 has a 20% chance to save (16% for the Dex of 16 plus 4% for the 4 points above 12).
>The pit is 10 feet deep with five iron spikes at the bottom, each coated with poison. Roll 1d6 to determine how many spikes wound the victim; a roll of 1-3 indicates the number of spike wounds that occur, and a roll of 4-6 indicates that the spikes missed the falling PC. For characters that fall, give 1d6 points of falling damage, plus 1d6 of damage for each spike wound. For each spike wound, the PC must pass a saving throw vs. poison or die in agony within
three turns.

Shit like this is all over the place in old rule books. Perception checks are rolled on percentile dice. Attack rolls are made by subtracting an opponents AC from your THAC0 (To Hit AC 0), then trying to roll a D20 OVER that. Strength checks are made by rolling a D20 as well, but you try to roll UNDER your strength score. Say what you want about 3. PF, at least it's coherent design wise.

Which post exactly?

I guess I'll throw my story out there.

A couple years back, I got sick of forever GMing, and went to my FLGS. There was a 4e game that ran on Wednesdays, so the DM helped me make a character, and we rocked and rolled.

His name was Koffi, a kobold rogue, and I did have a great time with him.

It was actually the first non-GURPS game that I ever played, and it was kind of weird. One thing that was bizarre was how abstract everything felt. I'm a 40 pouns lizard, but I have 80 hit points? Alright...

The other thing I noticed was how everything about the game was designed to push you towards combat. OTOH in GURPS, there's no Appropriate Level Challenge ranking system, so you might be able to beat that lion, or maybe you won't. Who knows!

Still, I had a pretty good time with the game, to the point that I was disappointed when I had to drop it due to work related stuff.

1) Get the updated monster rules. Trust me they make the game much better.

2) Do you remember that you don't fucking spend Healing surges whenever you want and that if you run out of them you can't heal at all?

I doubt he knows this.

Basically the MM3 revised monster rules some to where monsters got 1/2 their HP (that giant that had 150 hp? 75 now) but to compensate their damage was doubled as well (used to hit and average 15 points? Now it's 30).

And healing in combat can only come from a limited number of sources - a healing surge via second wind, a healing potion or other piece of equipment like Dwarven plate or something and from a leader class ability (unless you had some class ability or feat or something) but these are always fairly limited. Add to that that some races and classes get boons for staying healthy or bloodied, sometimes people will hang the fuck back and others will run in and get hit until they get all them sweet bonuses and stuff.

What is really funny is in 5e Hit Dice are exactly what 3aboos claimed Healing Surges were, though they tend be less accessible than Surges were.

>tfw started with 5e

Never read that, I stopped playing about a year in. I'll look into it though.
I remember that, but temp hit points were also pretty easy to come by, and everyone having a heal once per encounter plus a nice temp buff is a lot of healing.

Except it's the same thing, only not accessible in combat through second wind or powers that grant it.

What do you mean by "it's the same thing"

Do you mean it's the same as what 4e detractors claim healing surges are, or the same as what 4e healing surges actually are?

Sorry, I mean healing surges work the same way as hit dice, only without the extra stuff of healing surges.

No, see, basically the Focluchan Lyrist PrC is literally the bard from AD&D. It's a super neat class but it's so hard to get in and doesn't do anything once you're in. It's unfortunate is what it is.

That is not true

healing potions in 4e consume healing surges, you can't heal off of a healing potion without a healing surge. The same is true for healing spells like healing word.

This is a key difference. In 5e, hit die are extra healing you can use on top of stuff like healing word. In 4e, healing surges are the only form of healing, and once you're out of them. Tough shit, no healing for you until your next extended rest. You can't even get up from unconsciousness from a successful heal check, because all the heal check can let you do is "spend a healing surge"

>Leader at-wills
Literally at-will chump-change healing based off of secondary stats.

You are right about most forms of healing require a surge, though.

Yeah, true, but that's also because that was the primary source of healing, you didn't need a healer.
Really what's changed from 4e is the role of healing, as in now it's more of a dedicated role.
Not having a healer in 5e sucks a lot, and then all your healing is just dice which aren't nearly as good as 4e.
4e was right in trying to move away from this healer requirement.
3.5 was bullshit in this regard, not even a long rest was good enough

There's only one leader at-will that heals. A cleric at-will, and it's bad because it requires charisma and wisdom.

Some of the shit could get hilariously unbalanced if used on anything other than what Wizards wrote.

I once killed a mountain with me in it and lived in 4e.

The whole mountain.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but how can it be bad if it's at-will? Can't you heal everyone up to full after every encounter? The only thing needing cha and wis would mean is in combat healing isn't great, but you already have second wind for that which you don't in 5e, and healing during combat in 5e is a losing battle even with the 5e heal spells.

It's bad because you only get two at-wills, three if you're human. And it's just not as good as the other cleric options. The out of combat utility is often not worth sacrificng the in-combat utility of a worthwhile second at-will

Also, the healing effect depends on the ally you want to heal hitting the same target as you. Which means it can't be used to revive unconscious allies, and, depending on your DM, often can't be used to heal out of combat

>Stop me if I'm wrong, but how can it be bad if it's at-will? Can't you heal everyone up to full after every encounter?
Effects on attack powers only trigger if you're hitting a real target. So you can't spam healing strike on a tree or whatever and get everyone maxed out.

Oh, that's pretty dumb then, using up your at-will for in combat healing is just not right.

Isn't there more "surgeless" healing in 5E though? Been a while since I played it.

I like 4e but it's got a massive problem with number inflation.

When a optimise party well it's a beautiful thing when it comes together. But it's a rare thing.

Enemies have insane amount of hit points and numbers in general but dish out relatively little damage the players who start out with a ton of health and easy access to healing. They're hard to kill but rarely a threat. Please just gravitate to wards the safest most boring tactics and whittling them down.

The worst eddition is still 3rd Edition

The "hard to kill, hardly a threat" problem was solved pretty quick

Your standard paragon-level monster will kill an equal level PC in 4 attacks when looking at MM3 and beyond maths. An elite paragon level monster will often do the same in three attacks. And a standard 4e encounter is either number of PCs x 1.25 standard monsters of equal level, or number of PCs x 0.75 elite monsters of equal level

There are spells that heal.
There are potions and healer's kits that heal.
There are class abilities and feats that heal, or improve upon healing supplied by a different source like HD.

Spells are more valuable than in 3.5, you don't get nearly as many, and they increase in ability based on slot spent not caster level. So heal spells are never gonna do a whole lot unless you're spending major resources on it, which could be better spent preventing the damage in the first place.

Magic items are not as common, or technically, even a given, So you're down to those Kits, which, though cheap (10 uses for 5g) are slightly bulky (same weight as a spear) and require a feat to actually heal damage not just stabilize, a successful check of 10, and does a somewhat piddling amount given all that effort (1d6+4+HD, at best 1/6 your health, at worst 1/12) That said, it is spammable as long as you've got kit uses to expend, if you're willing to sacrifice one of your 5-7 feats/stat increases for it.

There's also another that gives 3-5 temp HP to the whole party for a 10 minute speech once per short rest. Woo.

Bard's healbetter is nice, but requires you to be spending HD in the first place.
Paladin's Lay on hands is great, but the pool to spend from is a bit small.
Cleric of Life's ability's boil down to spells heal better (but you're still spending spells), when you heal others you get some heals too, and their channel is just ranged lay on hands that has to be spent all at once.

And then there are HD. Which unlike surges can only be spent outside combat. So no last-minute saves.

So the answer is yes. surgeless healing, or improved surges so you don't have to spend as many do exist. But if you want something effective, it's still costing you dear resources in some way or another typically.

It's a good balance I think.

OD&D didn't have bards though.

I think they might have been added in a magazine though I can't remember which issue.

Halfing the health and doubling the damage also deals with things nicely, but the damage had been done by that point.

The thing that really slowed it down large number of various of the power and the action economy. Someone who knew he spells inside out and had his moves planned had no trouble but you only need a single FNG to grid things to a halt

>Spells are more valuable than in 3.5, you don't get nearly as many

They are however way less valuable than in 4e, which is I think what we are comparing it with.

>So heal spells are never gonna do a whole lot

What they do is pick up characters with no effort involved. The most a leader could do in 4e is pick someone up twice (or maybe thrice, at higher levels). Healing word is the only heal spell you need, and you can fire it off as many times as you have spell slots. I had a Cleric make the fighter/barbraian stand up 5 times in a single battle in 5e, and he had slots remaining (since he could do melee and only had to concentrate on his horde of angels). It's impossible to keep 5e characters down, compared to 4e (it doesn't help that monsters in 5e are boring as shit and all they get to do like 90% of the time is damage).

Also, life cleric essentially heals the full party to half health if they have time to short rest with his channel divinty anyway.

Pathfinder is the best edition of the game. It's got huge amounts of depth and verisimilitude. A hugely interesting array of feats, races and classes and huge amounts of options to build whatever you want. It has a robust core system and explains everything in detail. There's great balance as long as you run the game properly and accept the high power level at high levels as a feature.

5E is a close second, lacks a huge amount of depth but really easy to pick up for newbies and easy to run as a GM. Sadly it's missing rules for a huge range of character skills , it's hard to build a non-combat focussed character and there's massive HP bloat which is jarring alongside weird AC values. A guard in chainmail has the same AC as a frost giant
A cr 2 bandit leader has the more HP than an Ogre...

AD&D is next for its old school charms and millions of charts. Its various itereations go below here too.

4E is last on the list. It's not even D&D to be honest it's more a tactical minuatures game where a bit of side roleplaying is kinda encouraged as long as it leads to more 3 hour tactical combats. At level 1. With 4 kobolds. I'd rather just play warhammer or magic the gathering.

It's incredible how you discredited your entire post within the first sentence.

The rest of his post isn't much better, desu.

Don't know. Didn't read.

By stating an indisputable fact?

It's a shame that WOTC decided to abandon D&D with 4E in order to sell miniatures to World of Warcraft players. I think if they'd used the budget they had to update the 3.5 rules we would have a better game than Pathfinder now which I'm aware is not perfect, just the best edition of D&D. ( I prefer Runequest/Rolemaster/Harmmaster if anything but good luck getting players for those.)

WOTC realised what an awful mistake they made in alienating most of the community to pick up a bunch of neophyte video gamers who would get bored as soon as the next COD came out. So they made 5E but because 4E flopped so hard it was made on a shoestring budget with mostly players doing the playtesting. Hence why its missing so many rules and options and has all its issues with bloat and a 'flat' feeling because of the bounded accuracy issues.

I do wonder what could have been...

No, they weren't.

If you look at the classes without realizing how experience worked, if looked imbalanced, but between fighters and rogues gaining experience quickly, how initiative suystem made casters incredibly vulnerable to losing their spells before they could finish casting them, and the narrative nature of both combat and noncombat skills (aside from proficiency, almost anything could be solved with a d20 roll against your stat, rolling below your stat), it was far better balanced than 3.5 core ever was.

You sound mad, user.

Yeah I'm pretty mad.

A bunch of chucklefucks who mostly copy pasted the 3.5 SRD still made a better version of D&D than WOTC ever managed as they wasted their money time and resources creating a tactical skirmish game for 13 year old X-box live gamers.

...

Oh look, it's eternally triggered bitch user.

I don't know if I should find your rage amusing or your stupidity insulting.

...

Oh look, it is eternally triggered bitch user.

...

>but between fighters and rogues gaining experience quickly,
Except Fighters don't - they have the second slowest XP track in the game - and Thieves are fucking terrible if they're not multiclassed, especially so in the early levels, so it takes them several levels to even be capable of doing their job.
>how initiative suystem made casters incredibly vulnerable to losing their spells before they could finish casting them
You mean how weapon speeds were consistently higher than core spell casting speeds were in a subsystem where higher = worse?
>it was far better balanced than 3.5 core ever was.
This is objectively true but it has nothing to do with any of your examples.

I recall one user crunched the numbers and found the health decrease wasn't nearly so significant. The damage was close to double, but health was barely changed, sometimes only by single digits. I figure the major MM3/MV changes were to power design and monster saves.

The mathed out old-school class XP tables actually don't have much variance. At most there's maybe a difference of 2 levels, on average. For the most part the levelling rates are almost identical.

Potions. A couple of my 5e games the party pretty much survives off potions. As long as we can survive an encounter we can chug them and keep going indefinitely. We just stock as much as possible before setting off and restock with the inordinate amount of potions the random loot tables hand out. I rather miss the 4e way of healing as it's own limited resource

This, the health change wasn't that big, what they did do instead is nerf the defenses of elites and champions (and some other roles) and up the damage. Point is the HP was sorta okay, but the high defenses meant that you kept missing all the time.

It was kinda like 5e with the roles reversed (this time the players having ridiculous defenses).

>Pathfinder is the best edition of the game.
Wut? Pathfinder is the bloat king that is there to keep martials down, exacerbate the issue that is the quadratic spellcaster, with trap options galore. About the only thing it does well is printing some halfway alright adventures (but even these need to be houseruled and homebrewed so much that running them straight out of the book is rather silly.

AD&D, even with all of it's quirks, blows Pathfinder out of the water. 5E is great with it's focus back to basics for the most part, scrapping a lot of issues from the previous editions (martials still aren't quite as powerful as spellcasters per se but they aren't bad 99% of the time).

What 4e did was streamline everything, get rid of almost every trap issue, balanced the classes by having them all have the same core grouping of abilities (flat increases to skills instead of constant point buy per level, AEDU power structure, etc.) and if one simply tweaks the skill challenge resolutions then it plays out mechanically very similarly to other editions. HP bloat for monsters (coupled with sub par damage output) was noted and errata'd via MM3 and the Monster Vault monsters. And I've played the game for a long time (see ) and combat lasting more than 1 hour only really happened a few times.

There was also the additon of the expertise feat tax to bump up players' to hit

Really it was an overall patching of the game design that fixed the issues with the monsters

Oh look, an actual ETBA.

Every edition of D&D has sold better than the last, it's just never enough for their hasbro overlords

Yeah I realised this as a DM pretty quickly and I'm rather concerned about my group working it out. There's no real use for gold as there's no magic item economy but you can buy huge amounts of consumables instead.

I could hope they just don't realise. From experience players hate buying consumable items and hate using them even more. You know the trope of finding all those one shot items in a video game you never use of fear of wasting them.

Or I could house rule it that you can't heal if you have 0 HD OR healing potions drain a HD but heal what they heal as well as a HD. But my players are pretty new so I dont want to add more rules to complicate things especially unplaytested ones.

I tried working out an addiction system but Veeky Forums hated it so I never actually tried it in a game

I was a DM for 4th edition, and we all had a good time. I know there are better systems, but it really wasn't as bad as bandwagon-hoppers like to portray it as.

I do like the idea of that but it might be more suitable for a more post apocalyptic setting like Dark Sun.

>>"Do not, my friends, become addicted to water. It will take hold of you and you will resent its absence."

Feel free to post it again I'd be raly intereated to see what you came up with , TG can be full of abrasive dicks at the best of times so I wouldn't scrap something on a few comments

>I feel like it could be good for running a very anime-esque campaign, what with calling your attacks and the combat focus, leaving out of combat very open and loose.

As I get older, the design philosophy of 4e appeals to me more. The 'combat rules heavy, non-combat rules lite' approach seems to solve a lot of the problems I had in other games. You don't have to play it as anime-esque but it can do that if you want.

It has been years since I played any TTRPG and I am feeling the itch to get back in with 4e.

Well, the /4EG/ people now have their own compendium thing which makes it easy to reference the rules. I'm going to try to get my new group (I'm moving out of state to my fiancee's home and her and her friends are all gamers too) to try it though one of them is a huge "4E is evil evil do not approach it sucks" person who didn't even so much as look at the game but heard all the shit online.

>4E is evil evil do not approach it sucks" person who didn't even so much as look at the game but heard all the shit online
My entire group is exactly like that. Scratch that, BOTH my groups are exactly like that. I'd love to try the system out, but I doubt I ever will.

What's that compendium you're speaking of?

The hardest part of convincing someone to play 4e is getting them into the mindframe.

I convinced my long-time 3.5 group to give it a shot two years ago, I now have a two-year-strong 4e game still running and three of us still have subscriptions to DnD Insider

funin.space/compendium/

Best of luck though. At least the new group I'll probably end up forever GMing is willing to try other games like Palladium, GURPS, and others. It's just the one player who is dead set against 4e.

Some guy in the 4e general siteripped the DnD Insider 4e compendium, which contains all up-to-date rules for the system, but normally requires a paid subscription to use

funin.space/compendium/

First post of 4e General has stuff () while someone did a backup of the compendium ().

>4e General
I'm sorry. I should have looked for that. I couldn't imagine such a thing to exist.

Thanks.

Out of curiosity, how old are the players who are really against 4e? I encounter it with people in their mid- to late-twenties who reached adolescence as 3e came out and went to college around the time of 4e's release.

>OD&D is a mechanical mess
>cites examples from AD&D
>from a module
>from a fucking tournament module

Okay kid.

Funny enough: I am of exactly that age group. Most of the others are too, but we have some divergence upwards and downwards.

And yes, drinking the 3e coolaid is a big part of the problem.

Yes it's mostly that age group. People who were of just the right age to start getting into RPGs right when 3.5 was at peak popularity

I'm that age, but I still love 4e, I think it's mostly because Pathfinder felt like a personal betrayal though. It promised so much, and delivered so little that it pushed my into the arms of the competition

Me and my old 4e group are in our 20s but I've played with people in their 30s, teens and one guy in his 40s. I think the major issues were the people tied to 3e/3.5 and then a lot of the games promised software becoming vaporware post murder-suicide.

>software becoming vaporware post murder-suicide
W-what?

As a 4e player who would have played 3.X if martials were any good/interesting ... And stat blocks for monsters looked cool. This is vaguly depressing

... I think my playing of Diablo 2 LoD and M:tG made me aware of how important monster design is, and the general fun of martial characters as a concept.

>Pathfinder
>huge
>hugely
>huge
>robust
God bless 5e for having the good sense to trim the fat.