/osrg/

You could easily have the painting be included as loot in any other regular delve - just an incidental treasure. Could even be the answer to the hook in

...

What hooks can I use to lure PC's in under a "If it seems to good to be true..." kind of scenario?

The trick is balance, any fantastic opportunity has to be counterpointed by a similarly high risk to explain why someone else hasn't taken advantage of it yet. One way to use this is to be upfront about the hazards (there's a dragon, the environment is a horrible wasteland, two hostile armies are fighting in the area) but present the PCs with a solution that turns out to either: a) not be all it's cracked up to be or b) be an incomplete fit for the actual danger.

Personally I'd flag it a little, make the source of the opportunity look a little sketchy, but if they go for it anyway then it's up to them to take care of it.

Are OSR games synonomous with an open world, hex crawl, sandbox style of play?

There seems to be a meme that new school games invented linear, story based play but I don't see this holding much water and would go as far to say that most games since the inception if RPG's have been linear ,illusionist games in structure. Heck arguably a dungeon crawl is an incredibly linear experience depending on design of course.

But I didn't play in the 70's so I'm throwing this out to all the real grognards.

OSR often strives toward a free open hexcrawl environment, but I admit that there will be a lot of illusion of choice since a DM very rarely can be expected to know exactly what the players are gonna do. This is the reason why dungeons are the first and foremost environments in these games since it is easy to figure out how the players will move and how long time stuff takes.
I think a what sets old-school style apart from new-school the most though is the fact that the DM has a strong responsibility to create the open world, you can't really dragonlance it and have players not be allowed to die or stray from the path. If the players do something you didn't expect you just have to suck it up and figure out what should happen. I also think OSR relies more on the DM creating systems that the players slowly but surely learn, like encounter tables for example. A new-school DM might just have players encounter whatever he wants, but an OSR DM will have rolling a 6 always mean brigands, and that teaches players about the world.

OSR means a lot of different things to different people, of course, so I imagine I'll get some arguments against those points. That is however some of the things that have stood out to me the most when I discovered old-school play.

For anyone who has run Better Than Any Man, would it be possible to add the location to a hexcrawl without much issue? Would it be possible to remove the time limit the module sets or is it strongly connected to how much fun the setting is?

Anyone have the random dungeon generation from AD&D, Trove is down and I wanted to give it a go through.

Your question depends pretty much entirely on definitions, for instance some would say a game isn't OSR if its rules don't focus on such play, but lots of people, including in these threads, seem to be flocking to the OSR just because the streamlined rules make them easy to run, and because this is where the creativity is right now in the RPG world.

Similarly, an old-school purist would say that new-school gaming invented linear play *by definition* because that's what old- and new-school are, that's what the terms mean. But did new-school *games* invent it? A game can't literally invent anything, obviously, and the reason new school games were created at all is that people were playing D&D in that style first. Nobody just came up with the style out of nowhere, then wrote a game for it, then began to play it. But new-school games were certainly *invented for* and pushed new-school play.

Absolutely most games invented since the inception of RPGs are new-.school though, it took over incredibly fast and thoroughly. That's why there needed to be an old-school revival at all, the old playstyle had all but died out in the 1970s already.

Here you are.

This blog post has some helpful advice as well:

>beyondtheblackgate.blogspot.com/2011/03/ad-dmg-appendix-random-dungeon.html

Does OSRG consider Cyberpunk 2020 an OSR game? I've been playing it and it's spin off, Cyber Generation, for about a year now, and have really enjoyed the simplicity and old school design philosophies behind both.

Thanks for both user.

>automatically assuming everyone uses roll20

I'm super interested as a player (of that's what your looking for too), but right now I have a bit too many games going on to GM. If running a modified module was okay once and getting a feel for it, then maybe? Either way if your still looking for players I'm down.

>Does OSRG consider Cyberpunk 2020 an OSR game?
Yet again: no. In practice, only derivatives of OD&D, Basic, and 1E AD&D are considered "OSR games".

That said, it's cool if Cyberpunk 2020 works well with an old-school playstyle. That said -- I've never read it myself, but isn't it a Talsorian game? That at least makes me expect it not to have very old-school rules, the stuff of theirs I *have* read definitely doesn't.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, mind, only we've had quite a few people in /osrg/ who've completely misunderstood what "old-school" means in this context.

>Does OSRG consider Cyberpunk 2020 an OSR game?
Well, narrowly defined, OSR is old school D&D and its immediate derivatives. Cyberpunk obviously doesn't fit the bill for that. More broadly defined, it's old role-playing games in general, but that's a pretty big group with an amorphous cut-off line. Cyberpunk 2020 was released around the same time as 2e, so if that's the line, it makes it (but then so was Vampire: the Masquerade, so we really are being inclusive).

If we're looking for a specific sort of old school playing style, it's hard to see how gamist, fantasy-based dungeon-looting really translates to cyberpunk, other than for a certain mercenary ethic. So out of three different ways of interpreting OSR, Cyberpunk *might* qualify under the broadest one, depending on where you draw the line.

As far as Cyberpunk 2020, itself, goes, I'm really not a fan. I don't mind the underlying mechanic, but much of what they put on top of it is an inconsistent mess. Many of the different careers don't work well together, the cybernetics are unbalanced, and the gun and armor rules are a mess. It could be an interesting game if you went through and fixed the crunch, but unless you're improvising a lot, I don't consider the game to be very good as-is. Of course, I have no experience with Cyber Generation, so I don't know what that did.

>More broadly defined, it's old role-playing games in general, but that's a pretty big group with an amorphous cut-off line.
Who outside of the occasional butthurter in these very threads ever defines it that way? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I've just never once seen it on Dragonsfoot or anywhere else that isn't this board. In fact, I've seen it significantly less often than people calling the original Runequest (1978) the start of the new school. I feel like that pretty much means the "broader definition" just isn't true.

>Well, narrowly defined, OSR is old school D&D and its immediate derivatives. Cyberpunk obviously doesn't fit the bill for that. More broadly defined, it's old role-playing games in general, but that's a pretty big group with an amorphous cut-off line. Cyberpunk 2020 was released around the same time as 2e, so if that's the line, it makes it (but then so was Vampire: the Masquerade, so we really are being inclusive).
Okay.

>If we're looking for a specific sort of old school playing style, it's hard to see how gamist, fantasy-based dungeon-looting really translates to cyberpunk, other than for a certain mercenary ethic. So out of three different ways of interpreting OSR, Cyberpunk *might* qualify under the broadest one, depending on where you draw the line.
In a way Night City itself is a dungeon, and the players choices in exploring the open world and visiting different locations within it sort of draw analogy in my mind to the keep on the borderlands, where you have "safe" corp zones to return to and receive jobs, and arcologies/combat zone ghettos where one explores and loots in a Deus Ex style of play. If you want to take it to it's most extreme, 2020 literally rewards players for killing people in ways that damage their bodies in the least amount possible and then taking those bodies to a body back to be sold. It's one of the few 100% certain ways of making money as defined by the rules.

(1/2)

>As far as Cyberpunk 2020, itself, goes, I'm really not a fan. I don't mind the underlying mechanic, but much of what they put on top of it is an inconsistent mess. Many of the different careers don't work well together, the cybernetics are unbalanced, and the gun and armor rules are a mess. It could be an interesting game if you went through and fixed the crunch, but unless you're improvising a lot, I don't consider the game to be very good as-is.
There a lot of resources available online that hack, home brew, and change aspects of the game, and I have never sat down at one table and had the game be played with the same exact rules. A lot of old, abandoned, but somehow still online web 1.0 pages. For me it just adds to the charm and makes me feel like I'm playing something old school. Maybe that makes me Young.

>Of course, I have no experience with Cyber Generation, so I don't know what that did.
In short, it put a bigger epenthesis on the style over substance by simplifying many of the mechanics, The change from Adult Edgerunners living paycheck and firefight to firefight, to children whom only seem to want to fight for a better future is also a strangely optimistic change of pace for the genera. Overall the game's fluff tries to encourage less violence, putting a bigger focus on interpersonal party drama and teen angst. At least that has been my experience playing and running the game.

(2/2)

>Dragonsfoot
A group of autismos who have sexual fantasies about Gary Gygax's Greyhawk are by no means a relevant source of opinions.

Okay, but that doesn't seem to answer the question in the least: who else says it?

Nobody I've seen. All across the OSR blogs and RPG forums, everyone seems to understand that the "old school" that's being "revived" is specifically old school D&D, the thing that new school D&D tried to shove off into the retirement home.

>A group of autismos who have sexual fantasies about Gary Gygax's Greyhawk
>he seriously thinks this doesn't describe us

>by no means a relevant source of opinions
Well then maybe you shouldn't ask /osrg/ for theirs, Hutt Burt.

Agreed, and I think that was the other guy's point too: it's just the occasional shitposter in these threads who tries to get it to mean anything broader than that.

>tfw remember when /osrg/ didn't have shitposters

Are the Troves ever coming back?

I think the time limit is important, but you can just start the timer when the enter the area and spread rumors about what might happen when they get there.

Of course the players may just ignore the armies and city conflict to fuck around with the bug god and the infinite tower like mine did

1. Large rough cloth fragments of the map of exactitude, once a full-scale map of the country which an insane cartographer's guild waged exact, strategic war to seize control of and make. And which, having been made, was found entirely useless and abandoned to the elements.

2. An impossibly thin, delicate sheet of mica with moving silvery veins of hematite. It is an inverse map of the underdark, and will show the geography of your current location -beneath- the earth's surface.

3. A death-map made of the tattooed leathered skin of a dead woman's head. Marked on the map are the locations of the residue of her life: her properties, belongings, lost loves and children, etc. The face moans when the wind is blowing.

4. A vellum map completely blank except for the party's current location. It will fill itself in as they travel. If it comes into the possession of any new owner, it will wipe itself completely blank again.

5. A map to an island where there is a map to a tree where there is a map to a chest where there is a map to a hare where there is a map to a duck where there is a map to an egg where there is a map to a needle where there is a map to... something else. You can probably guess.

6. A map of the current place at a far distant time (past or future). Short hagiographies scribbled on the map in an alien script give clues to the rise of the future (or demise of the past) that it shows, which seems peopled with impossible horrors.

7. A map to a man's death. One specific man, resident and alive in the world, known or unknown to the PCs. It meticulously maps out the man's habits, manners, vulnerabilities and locations at any given time of day. There is a bounty on this man, somewhere.

8. Elaborately bound and filigreed with all the markings of a vanity project, this map of maps only lists the locations and dates of creation of the most famous and unusual maps known to history.

>had some more but no space

therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34527-The-Third-Gen-of-the-OSR&p=899862&viewfull=1#post899862

therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34527-The-Third-Gen-of-the-OSR&p=900200&viewfull=1#post900200

Two people, neither of whom are shitposters, one of whom is a blogger/writer both agree that OSR should be broader.

And there's C.R. Brandon, who has written a The Fantasy Trip/Holmes Basic retroclone.

Maybe do what gurps gen does and have the op and all extra info in a pdf.

Well that's a bit of interest at least. This is mostly at the idea spitballing phase. Format wise I was thinking of Roll20 (makes it easier to coordinate multiple GMs as you can share notes/material). Games would be (hopefully) low prep and sort of pick up and play - just announce "I'm gonna GM at X time", get some signups, and roll with who's there. If you plan to GM and play... I guess you'd have to work via honour system as there's no way to hide stuff on Roll20 from other GMs.

The idea is that you get some exposure to different game practices and procedures, maybe tips and tricks for running games online, or at the very least generate usable stuff for a home campaign.

Setting wise, some sort of city with a dungeon under it would probably be best. Some sort of sewer system with multiple entrances around town, so different GMs can run completely different dungeon complexes without having to overlap if they're worried about spoilers. Less hexcrawl hassling (although other GMs could run adventures outside the city bounds) and players can jump straight into dungeoncrawls.

Ruleset-wise, candidates are probably OD&D, B/X/LL, Swords and Wizardry (free). Leaning towards S&W as it's free (not that anyone on Veeky Forums has any hangups about that, but access to the rules is independent of Trove status).

As great as LoTFP is the silver standard makes module conversion extra work (although I wouldn't be opposed to stealing the Specialist class). ACKS might be a source of stuff to pilfer (Mortal Wounds table, for example) but a lot of the options would be sort of wasted in a game like this.

>Are the Troves ever coming back?
The temporary trove backup link from the first thread is back up, if it was ever down: mega.nz/#F!oN9XQRaR!3IOuPLcjR9zBh_xvIvrwEw

Plus, the links pastebin OP didn't copy: pastebin.com/FQJx2wsC

This might be a good idea though.

>first thread
Last thread. Not first. I only discovered this general, like, a week ago.

I ran one quite a while back and it was fun. Lasted for about 20 sessions, 13 different players, half of those were regular players, had 9 people show up at once to play.

Don't do multiGMs. Make sure they have some way of online communication (so their characters can converse at the "camp/tavern" in the form of facebook wall messages or something). Slap visible random effects once in a while, play with their curiosity (eg. skyship falls down 30 miles to the north).

Post some sort of contact info, I'll get in touch.

System-wise I love OD&D and have been running a weekly game of S&W for a couple months. That being said it's slightly problematic since its such a barebones rule set. It would be a bit awkward jumping between each GM's differing rule interpretations unless a universal rule set was agreed upon. If you want to avoid that work, maybe a more explicit system would be better? Again, I would love to be a part of it, so post some kind method for those interested to dicuss.

Not the guy trying to set it up, but that Facebook wall idea is really interesting. What software/site did you use to achieve that?

Oh sorry, didn't achieve that because I didn't have the Facebook idea back then. Adding the idea here now so maybe some user does it better than I did.

Only software I used was CorelDraw for the hexmap.

Maybe some mod of a TiddlyWiki could be set up? It would definitely be an interesting project. I don't know if that would 100% possible, since I haven't actually looked at the code for creating plugins for it myself yet. From what I understand it's pretty capable though.

As annoying as it sounds you could also use a Reddit board (ugh). It would be kind of perfect for that, and it shouldn't be ignored just because the Reddit community kind of sucks. Runnerhub is a great example of this in practice, although it's not really exactly what the organizer is intending. (Actually an OSR equivalent of runnerhub would be pretty awesome)

What's wrong with multiple GMs?

There's campaignwiki.org and shoutwiki.com which both offer free wiki hosting.
I was planning on using those for general info in my vaporware campaign, and maybe setting up a forum for discussion, or perhaps just opening a "Tavern" thread for the campaign, on Veeky Forums weekends or something.

Personally, it's a pain in the arse, using the same setting/characters because they'll suddenly go either monty haul on the party (or custom-give their chars cool stuff) or not give a thing.
And their style can usually clash with your own, making you resent them/the game. If you were going for a horror/low combat game, and they have you clear a goblin den, it's gonna mess with the entire campaign because the players are going to be confused.

You can have multiGMs in Diablo games, where the only reward should be gold (the PCs could make their own magical stuff, or make it and then have it be found in a dungeon or something) and there's no real story hanging overhead. Multi-GMs in a story-based game (even if the other-non-main GMs only do optional sidequests) could bring about a lot of problems, mechanically or story-based.

This. Me and my group had a forever GM who decided to step down and let two other players have a go at it. One straight up railroaded the party and just threw monster waves at us over and over. When we finally said we didn't want to play that way anymore, another player to the spot and would drop magic shit from things as weak as goblins ("Oh yeah, that's a +1 shortsword too"). This was all in the same campaign too, and needless to say it didn't exactly last long after these two hopped in the DM chair.

Yeah, good points. Honestly I'm not super worried about campaign consistency or overarching story - I see this more as a series of one-off games without the hassle of rolling up new characters every time.

This is meant to be more a diversion and a place for players/GMs to experiment, at least for now, I'm not intending for this to be a big project but it would be fun to have a common place to just do a beer-and-pretzels dungeon crawl.

I've set up some rudimentary architecture on Roll20 - app.roll20.net/join/1649454/svVeGA and can be contacted at app.roll20.net/users/1532559/stagehand. Since the log saves everything the chat could be used as a means of discussion for now.

Sorta want to run ACKS. Any advice? Any classes/races I should add?

I need encounters!
Urban encounters!

Also is the idea of abstract concepts as 'loot' a la Sunless Sea as dumb as it sounds or could it actually work?

Do you mean abstract in the sense of larger chunks of loot, or abstract in the sense of "roll to see if you have enough cash"? The former needs a rework of a loot-to-xp system, while the latter throws a monkey wrench into the whole idea...

you could make the loot come with a weird concept loot attached. Zzarchov does this in Thousand Dead Babies and Pale Lady.

I don't know how many of you read various OSR blogs (I imagine probably almost all) and I don't know which ones you read but my holy trinity is like Goblin Punch + False Machine + Playing D&D with Pornstars. And just FYI to anyone looking for ideas, the Goblin Punch guy has been on fucking fire over the past few days.

Feel free to recommend more cool blogs, I am always looking for them. This is shilling I guess, but I have no connection to any of these and I am part of no other community that I could point to this specific stuff and say "Hey look at this cool shit"

>abstract concepts as 'loot

Do you mean like finding love in a mimic chest?

Those are the same ones I main t b h, since Rients stopped writing regularly anyway. Arnold Punch and False Patrick rule. (Zak's good too obviously but he doesn't really need the hype, the way I figure it)

Slightly more like what said, but more useful. Treating stuff like 'A Secret', 'Recent News', 'Tales of Distant Shores', 'A Searing Enigma' as actual items (albeit ones without weight or physical dimensions) in order to allow them to be "traded" (Give a noble a good Secret to get into a hidden society, trade Recent News for Sea Stories on islands) or "used" (Find a mysterious settlement? With the correct item, you might remember hearing it mentioned).

The idea is that it keeps note-keeping and the like (for both sides of the table) to the minimum, preventing games getting bogged down by having too many non-essential details. Also it just sounds kinda cool to go on a quest looking for a Legendary Riddle or an Ancient Vision as opposed to more treasure and +1 swords.

In this case what you're proposing is just different methods of chunking or tracking loot, which is still fairly easy. Just assign an XP/gold value for the loot and handle the same way you would jewelry.

Things you'd probably have to figure out - is the value of the info time-sensitive, and can the players "lose" the information?

Alternately, if you want tradeable ideas the slightly less "weird" way is to simply use books, scrolls, tablets, etc. as pieces of loot with variable value to different people.

Some of the other cool ones just died, sadly, like that Straits of Anian or what I think used to be Monstrous Television. I tend to like Zak's rules content and hate his community content (or really, just the bitching part of it). False Machine is probably my overall favourite.

Elfmaids & Octopi is always super useful - a d100 table for anything. A lot of blogs propose systems and ideas you need to chew on, but E&O always has something immediately useable, which is handy once the campaign has begun or if you're in the middle of a session.

>I tend to like Zak's rules content and hate his community content (or really, just the bitching part of it).
I have to admit I sympathize with it; I know exactly how obnoxious those guys are, and I respect that he wants to push back against it and often simply needs to do it with mockery.

I mean, we're all here and not on Big Purp for a reason, right?

Eh, I don't think I'd be there either way. I really like Veeky Forums's format of posting, which I know kind of makes me a weirdo.

Games With Others has some really damn good stuff, even if it hasn't updated in forever, also it has one of my favorite non-standard Campaign Setting concepts;

Trollworld
gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/troll-world.html

Trollomancer Class
gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/trollomancer.html

Trollworld Items & NPC Reaction Charts
gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/things-you-find-in-trollworld-magic.html

Troll Master Class
gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/it-is-hard-to-find-cool-pictures-of.html

Trollworld City Encounter Chart
gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/trollworld-city-encounters-d-wandering.html

really need to run a game in this setting someday

I like Against The Wicked City and Aeons & Augauries.

So...what the hell is the Advanced D&D 3E Fanmade? Is it complete? How is it?

Let's get some more discussion going.

How do you guys design and organize your dungeon/hex crawls?

Do you literally book keep or do you store it in your pc?
Do you actually keep tract of every detail or just a small list of POIs and NPCs?
Do you draw the maps by hand or do you use some tool?
So you give the players the same map(if any) or do you abstract a simpler or more stylized one for their use?

>create a hexmap using hexographer
>store a hex key in a tiddlywiki on my external HD
>external HD dies

Just.

>he uses tabletop simulator

Is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup based on 2e?

Also, just a general question, what do you generally try to accomplish when you're designing your games?

1.) I do both. I have a binder that gets printed and handwritten notes and maps. There is a folder on hard drive that is just for keeping track of my roleplaying resources. I've been doing that for something like, ten years or so.

2.) I make up lists of NPCs, and add to it as the situation demands. Obviously, I can't plan for every PC choice or interaction, so if they make a certain NPC important because of their interest, I will gladly detail them more and fit them into whatever events are occurring around and because of the PCs.

3.) I usually draw them by hand, but I've also drawn them using GIMP and Hexographer. I've been an artist for as long as I could hold a pencil, so I'm more comfortable with physical media.

4.) If I let the players see the map, it's generally a simplified one. I don't let them see the maps with DM notes or information they haven't discovered yet.

As for dungeon maps... They get to make their own. If I provide a map of the dungeon for them, it'll be something they sought out and paid for (and could contain unreliable information).

I usually take notes at the table and then translate those (expanding and nixing some) to the PC

I usually only keep track of the NPCs and quest lines. For the map, I also write small POIs but don't really expand on things until needed.

I tend to use hexographer for my overland maps and then hand draw the dungeon maps.

As for players and maps, one player really likes hand drawing out maps himself in regards to dungeons. He also likes writing down his own notes for gameplay use. Comes in handy, let me tell you!

>what do you generally try to accomplish when you're designing your games?
Simplicity with scalability.

>>Original Trove
>Down
>>Secondary Trove
>Down
>>Temporary Trove
>Down

Don't worry user, I have copies of everything. Anything you want in particular?

I think that making time sensitive ones, while more realistic, would be a bit of a sucker punch for players. I wouldn't want to track exactly how many hours its gonna take for my Secret to 'go stale'. It would also ruin the idea that each piece of information isnt specific unless it is revealed in a way that would require that.

>Tradeable books
Yeh that works to an extent but
>Less "weird"
Aww whats the point then.

See

S&W or LL?

You can still make books "weird". They can be pickled brains full of secrets, flayed skins scribed with shifting runes, a potion that when imbibed grants knowledge, a needle meant to be pricked, silver discs, a miniature mannequin that speaks in riddles, etc. etc.

The thing about books (or whatever weird storage media you come up with) is that they itemize your information in a concrete way - complete with all the drawbacks of encumbrance, safekeeping, etc. without having to do the meta-game thing of keeping "secrets" on an index card.

There's nothing wrong with the approach you outlined but it definitely can mess with immersion by introducing a deliberate meta element.

LL, personally. They are both similar enough but LL also has the Advanced add-on that you can use to customize it some more. But both are really good and solid.

Expanding on this, LL has a fuck ton of classes but S&W has a fair number of spin-off games (Golden Age supers, ninjas, space travel, etc). So really, take your pick, both are awesome, I just prefer LL personally.

like their D&D board, but I don't go on their general one.

Demi-Humans as classes or races? Full advancement or stopped advancement?

Classes, either full advancement or Expert-style stopped advancement where humans stop at level 14 anyway.

For a more complete game: LL
For a versatile toolbox: S&W

depends

most demihumans are fighter/thieves, and I'm inclined to think a fighter/thief is the low end of the power spectrum compared to a normal fighter
so most demihumans are fighter-thiefs and fighters, and not really needing their own class combos, with the exception being, of course, elfs, who fight and cast. So elf the class works just fine.

>full advancement

Full advancement for fighters and fighter thieves is fine.
For the elf fightermage, it depends. The paladin, for example, is basically some sort of mutant fighter/cleric with stopped cleric advancement. It can thus be argued the fightermage can reasonably receive a level cap.

I would personally just give them unlimited advancement and cap their magic, or restrict it somehow.

Absolutely not. OSR has had story focused railroady style adventures since the dragonlance adventures modules and companion set adventures, if not sooner.

Stopped advancement was always a bad idea. Fortunately it didn't come into practice that much except as an encouragement to multiclass, but it was dirty pool from the beginning. It only advantaged the humans in a super-high-level or extremely long-running game, and it significantly disadvantaged them at low levels, especially since low-level multiclasses are so strong anyway.

All it takes is a little in-setting favoritism towards humans and they're balanced fine, especially if you keep the racial class restrictions.

I say both(but then I own a lot of different OSR systems in print)

>Demi-Humans as classes or races?
either can work if done right, how ACKS handles it is the best way of doing it in my opinion though

>Full advancement or stopped advancement?
if it's not Race-As-Class then it needs to be Full Advancement, if it is, then it depends on what the max level for Humans is, if it's something low like say between levels 10-14 then I'm fine with a stopped advancement if it's handled right(although a max level for a non-human beneath say level 7 is dumb)

Isn't Dragonlance the beginning of the new-school mindset in D&D though?

In terms of module design, perhaps. Just pointing out that OSR games are not synonymous with open world hexcrawl sandboxes.

From what I understand, yes. The modules seem to be very structured and your characters are more there for the ride than to change the outcome. Where you once had Keep on the Borderland which was open ended and could go anywhere, then you got stuff like Dragons of Despair which was a story game where you followed a set path for the most part and lord help you if you deviate from it!

Pretty much. It's wrong to say that the OSR's had railroads since Dragonlance, since the OSR hates Dragonlance for being a railroad.

This is a dumb post.

This is a dumb post.

Tell me what part of OSR has had "story focused railroady style adventures", or what part of the OSR movement accepts Dragonlance and the Companion adventures as being "old-school", then.

I raised the point of 1e and BEC modules that are story driven to point out they are not recent. This is relevant to his post. Specifically:

>There seems to be a meme that new school games invented linear, story based play

As far as the question of it being synonymous with open world hexcrawl sandboxes, that itself is a flat unambiguous no; if asked to give a more nuanced answer, it is anything from the pedantic "no, dungeon crawls are not hex crawls and do not necessarily operate in tandem with an open world" to "no, different DMs use all manner of different formats, to include story based ones."

Old School D&D isn't defined as "not recent". There isn't a timeframe on what is Old School and what isn't. There is no cutoff date.

You can't draw a line in the sand and say "Everything up to December 31st, 1986 is Old School, everything from January 1st, 1987 is not Old School", or any other date.

When the OSR community uses the words "old school" and "new school", they're not talking about what year modules and books came out, but they're talking about the design philosophy of what is being published.

Some 80s modules, like Keep on the Borderlands and Isle of Dread, follow the Old School mentality: They are locale-based, sandboxy and PC-driven.
Some 80s modules, like Dragons of Despair and The Veiled Society, follow the New School mentality: They are plot-based, linear and story-driven.

Just like we have modules from the 2000s and 2010s that are OSR, and modules from the 2000s and 2010s that are new-school.
It's never about publishing date, but about philosophy in design.

>There isn't a timeframe on what is Old School and what isn't. There is no cutoff date.
It kind of depends on your definition. Pre-3e D&D editions all use the same core system, so there really is a pretty good dividing line. With that said, some things that were done back then were atypical for the period, so I can certainly see how somebody could say that something wasn't in keeping with the spirit of OSR, and thus set it apart.