MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - The Work of an Enemy 「 E D I T I O N 」

not in the graveyard while reolving. I assume same reason delirium cards can't see themselves.

Tarmo doesn't die,it's a classical Modern case

What is the interaction between two Opalescence (each other enchantment is a creature in addition to enchantment with P/T equal to its CMC) and one Humility (enchantment, each creature loses their abilities and becomes a 1/1)?

To make it clearer, Tarmo wouldn't die until the spell finishes resolving and states are checked. The last step of resolving bolt is putting it in the graveyard.

Very simple. It results in a ban.

gA is kill

>"when ~ comes into play"
It's a triggered ability. The thing etb first, then the ability goes to stack.

>"as ~ comes into play"
This ability modifies how the permanent etb, you cannot respond to the ability.

is right. Basically, as Lightning Bolt resolves it'll do two things: Go to the graveyard and deal 3 damage to Tarmogoyf. By the time state based actions get around to seeing if Tarmo should go to the gy, he's got the toughness boost to make 3 damage non-lethal.

>Go to the graveyard and deal 3 damage to Tarmogoyf
the other way around

I didn't mean it happened specifically in that order (wasn't sure if there was an order that mattered for this case, really).

The effect happens then it goes to the yard. It may not be important in the case of Tarmo, but it's important in the case of Dryad Militant.

Yeah. I'm sure the order exists because it's important in some other fringe case where these rules become important.

I think this rule system is one of the best parts about MTG, since it's a lot less ambiguous than certain other card games.

Does this target on cast or on resolution?

Targeting is always on-cast, choosing is always on-resolution.

In this case your choice is "pre-chosen," because your "Choose [x]" set is exactly one creature, instead of being "Choose [x, y, or z]"

So it targets on-cast, and then as you resolve the spell, you choose the creature you targeted.

Both players share responsibility for maintaining the game state. In this scenario, at an FNM level, I'd just move the card to the zone it SHOULD be in, and let NAP take back their spell, reminding both players to be more careful. At Comp REL, I'd do something similar- we'd apply that same default fix (because the IPG lets us), and I'd back up the casting of the Extraction since it technically was cast on an illegal target. I'd give a Warning to AP for Game Rule Violation, and a Warning to NAP for Failure to Maintain Game State, remind them to be more careful, and move on.

You're never 'forced' to pick a legal target if something fucky happens. If I cast Doom Blade targeting your black creature, the fix is to undo the illegally cast spell, not force me to target my own non-black creature.

Call a Judge, and explain that you had concerns about the opponent's graveyard, and when you asked to inspect it, the opponent immediately conceded the game. The Judge will decide whether or not that's worth investigating.

Again, the goal here is to utilize the Judges to make sure everything is on the up-and-up, not to "sic" them on an opponent that you want punished.

Yep! Whenever ANY of your creatures do combat damage to a player, Grenzo triggers per creature- if you attack one player with 3 things, or 3 players with one thing each, you get 3 triggers (assuming all 3 creatures connect).

>Spelltwine
Twincast creates a copy directly on the stack, which is not considered 'cast'. Spelltwine exiles the cards, creates copies of them in exile, and then has you cast the copies. If it just said "Copy those cards" and stopped there, you'd have copies of spells in exile... and then they'd stop existing as a state-based action.

Your opponent is wrong. Spelltwine allows you to cast spells at a time you normally couldn't: During the resolution of an ability. You can't dodge actual TIMING restrictions (like "only during combat")- but Flash Sorceries is OK

Why is it worded that way? I always understood it that targeting is targeting and is affected by hexproof and what not but choosing is the same but gets by hexproof and the like.

This wording is really throwing me off.

Yes. "When ~ enters the battlefield" is a trigger which can be responded to. "As ~ enters" is a replacement effect, which cannot.

That's also a key thing here- it's a 4/4 with Trample until that trigger resolves.

It does not. It is dealt 3 damage, but SBAs don't check to see if anything has lethal damage while a spell is resolving. By the time SBAs are checked, Bolt is in the graveyard and Tarmogoyf is now a 3/4 with 3 damage on it.

Depends on timestamps. I'll come back to this one, to save post length.

gA was sent on errands.

Cast. Spells never target on resolution, because picking targets is like, the third step of casting a spell.

>How come Spelltwine says "Copy those spells"
It doesn't. Spelltwine copies the CARDS, then casts them.
It does it this way because there is no existing "spell" game objects don't exist in the graveyard, so the targets can't be copied as spells.

>Is it because Spelltwine's targets aren't being cast at that moment?
They *are* being cast at that moment. Which is honestly kinda weird, most copy effects *don't* count as casting.

>I have a friend who insists that Spelltwine doesn't allow me to cast sorceries if I flashed Spelltwine in during an opponent's turn
Well, you have a friend who's wrong. If a spell tells you that you ccan cast a spell, then you can cast a spell.
The only exception to this is when another spell (often the spell you're trying to cast) tells you you can't cast the spell.
Some spells say they can only be cast at certain times (usually certain parts of combat), and you *can't* cast those outside of those times.

Because if it was "You get EE, then you may pay any amount of E. Target creature gets -1/-1..." would probably confuse people MORE, and make them think that targeting is done halfway through the spell.

The reason that 'choose' gets around hexproof isn't because "choose" has some special rules; it's much more simple than that. "Choose" is not "Target", and that's the extent of it. It could be "select" or "designate" or any other synonym and work exactly the same way, simply because it is not 'target'.

So I can deal 4 damage to it before it puts four +1/+1 counters on itself, and then when the ETB resolves it dies instead of staying alive?

Does this give you double enter the battlefield triggers on creatures like kitchen finks? The wording keeps confusing me.

Alright, so, timestamps. Opalescence works in layer 4 (type-changing) and Layer 7b (setting P/T). Humility works in layers 6 (abilities) and 7b.

So we start in layer 4, where Opalescence A makes every other Enchantment into a creature, and Opalescence B animates Opalescence A. Timestamp doesn't matter here; end result is that all enchantments are also creatures.

In layer 6, Humility applies, removing all abilities from all creatures. That includes removing Opalescences' animation abilities, but that doesn't matter because they already began applying in an earlier layer. It also removes its own ability, which doesn't matter because it has to apply to remove itself, which is weird, but just roll with it.

Then, in layer 7b, timestamps matter. If Humility was the newest of the 3 cards, all creatures are 1/1. If it was the first, all non-Enchantments are 1/1, and the animated Enchantments (including Humility) have P/T equal to their CMC. If Humility was between two Opals, then the newer Opal is a 1/1, but all other Enchantments have P/T equal to their CMC, including the first Opal and Humility.

Right. It'll die, then the trigger will fizzle (assuming it was aimed solely at the Gearhulk).

Current agreement between the Judges I've discussed it with is "yes", but again, grain of salt. Multiple L3s swore up and down that multiple activations of Chain Veil didn't accumulate extra activations of your Walkers when it was spoiled, and were told otherwise by the Rules Manager. So, we'll see.

Is "choose a creature" different from "target creature"? If so, does Hexproof protect against "choose a creature" effects? What about protection from x?

Also: say I manage to put "protection from white" on a white creature with an activated ability that targets a creature. Can it target itself?

Do you judge at only one shop or multiple? Do you play anything else?

See Protection from white would mean that the creature couldn't be Damaged by white spells, permanents, or abilities from white sources; can't be Enchanted, Equipped, or Fortified by white Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications (respectively), Blocked by white creatures, or Targeted by white spells OR abilities from white sources. So it could not target itself with its own activated ability, because pro-white.

I mostly judge all over the place- I have a "home" store, but I don't do a lot of Judge work there, it's just the shop I play at. I play other games, but not other card games.

Remember Innistrad meta? Remember all the fucking tokens? If an opponent does the whole shebang with tokens, dice, etc for every fucking thing, can I get a judge and seek wasting time violation?

I've seen people take one token, put one dice to represent the number, and another dice to represent the P/T (since it's often just a multiple of 1/1 and all tokens get the buff); in the off chance one token is special they'd take out another and more dice. But I remember seeing people with 30 tokens on the board, each with their own dice when it was superfluous, etc.

In upper level play, can any of this be relegated to memory? Say someone has a creature that's 200/200; they want to get 34 d6s to represent its P/T. Can't I call bullshit on this? Can't we have a gentlemen's agreement "ok this card is 200/200"?

I can't give you a hard answer, because that's a case-by-case and judgement call sort of thing. Generally I prefer that players err on the side of caution and obviousness, because holy shit SO many problems in Magic games, overall, are just caused by poor communication. So generally, unless it was just choking the board to a stupid degree, I'd prefer someone using 5 different Saproling token card things over one Saproling with 5 dice on it, ESPECIALLY if some of them might have counters, etc. That said, they could go too far- if they're putting down a Spirit token, and putting a d6 on 1 to represent that it's a 1/1, I'd ask they remove the dice because it's way too easy for that to be confused for being a +1/+1 counter, or an 'extra' Spirit beyond the base, etc.

Basically, I'd advise that you start by just politely asking your opponent to streamline/uncomplicate his board state of tokens if you can't tell what the shit is going on, and if they're obtuse you might escalate it to a Judge call. If your worry is that you think they're intentionally doing that to slowroll and waste time, call a Judge and pretend you have a question about a card in your hand to get away from the table, and then just say "Hey, my opponent is taking out a new token card for every token he makes, using a red d6 to represent how many he has, and a blue one for base PT, and a green one for counters, and a white one for static boosts, and I think he's just doing it to either confuse me or to intentionally slow play- can you watch the game for a bit?".

gA, am I correct in the following line of logic?
>I cast Madcap Experiment and have 3 life.
>Run through a bunch of cards (let's say 15) before finding Platinum Emperion
>Madcap puts Plat Emp into play.
>Since Emperion is in play, the 15 damage that madcap experiment deals to me doesn't change my life total and I stay at 3 life.

Am I missing something here, or does this actually work?

If i Stasis Snare an opponent's land creature like Wandering Fumarole, does it stop being a creature when it hits exile or when the turn ends?
If the snare leaves the battlefield when the Fumarole is no longer a creature, does the card return to the battlefield? I assume it does.

1 exile
2 yes it does

is it legal to break the "one of a kind" edh rule if the duplicate card isn't from your deck?

Correct, because you perform the instructions in the order written. By the time the Experiment is doming you, Emperion is on board.

It stops being a creature as soon as it changes zones, because nothing's telling it that it's a creature in exile.

If Snare leaves, the Fumarole comes back tapped and unanimated.

I think the 'official' EDH rules on Wishes are just "Do what your group agrees is best".

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I'm making a spirit deck with a bunch of cards that exiles and returns cards to the battlefield right away.

So my question is:
If I use something like displace to exile two Guardian of Pilgrims and return them, I can give them+1/+1 until end of turn. But what happens if I use displace again? Will they end up with +2/+2 or will the first effect be removed when they are exiled?

I hope I managed to convey what I mean.

They'll lose the first +1/+1 when they leave the battlefield. The spirits that come in are totally new objects with no memory of their old existence. That includes the former +1/+1.

Thank you!

When cards change zones, they become new objects with no memory of, or relation to, their previous selves.

If my opponent is shuffling my deck and he is doing it sideways, as in the front face of the cards are clearly somewhat visible to both of us as he is doing it.

Can i punch him in the face?

To clear this up for my friend - Dark Salvation, Player A plays the card, pays the mana, and gets the zombies. Then Player A can pick a target creature (any creature at all) to receive a -1/-1 for each zombie Player A currently controls, correct?

No. You can say "hey, can you shuffle with the cards facing differently?" and/or call a Judge.

Player A casts it, choosing a target player, and a target creature. The target player gets X 2/2 Zeds, then the targeted creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each Zombie the targeted player controls. So assuming Player A casts it targeting themselves, it will shrink the targeted CREATURE for every Zombie they have, not just the ones made by the spell.

I see - so I would be correct in assuming that, barring some strange zombie vs zombie mirror match, you'd cast it targeting yourself and targeting your opponents creature.

My friend kept insisting that the card meant that the target creature had to belong to the same targeted player, despite my assurance that that would be a really shitty rare card.

Correct.

He was most likely playing on xMage where it was working like that.

Which would make Dark Salvation one of the most INSANELY SHITTY RARES in existance.

So when controlling your opponents turn, how does a trigger like avacyn work?

So this happened at my LGS the other night, and the player who's turn was being controlled forgot about the avacyn trigger. However the player who cast emrakul did not. He then called the judge and asked if he can "forget" the trigger as his opponent, and the avacyn owner, had.

The judge said no because he acknowledged it, and that otherwise it seemed shady but wasn't 100% on the ruling. What's your opinion on it?

You cant intentionally forget a trigger, thats not how forgetting works. If both players forget something then theres no issue because nothing is going wrong, but if someone forgets something and the other one doesnt, then anyone can just call on the judge and have the game reversed to the state before shit went wrong if it isnt too far away.

My friend was playing Magic: Duels and someone used a "return target permanent to player's hand" on a hexproof creature he had on the stack, waiting to be cast. I thought spells aren't permanents until they've entered the field?

I've got a demonic pact and a harmless offering. I use demonic pact and take the first 3 buffs it gives you. Can I then use harmless offering to give it to my opponent so they lose? Or does it reset when it enters their battlefield?

It was probably unsubstantiated which can return either a permanent or a spell to its owners hand

Totally works, and yes its awesome

If I block a creature with trample with a creature with protection from the attacking creature, can my opponent have the attacking creature deal all its damage to me?

Any card on the stack is a spell, and hexproof only works when the card is on the battlefield

He didn't say what counter card it was, I'm assuming it was unsubstantiate and he didn't read it properly.

Going by the rules, trample creatures are forced to assign lethal damage to their blockers before assigning any to the defending player.
For sure the attacker can't just assign all the damage to the player, but i'm not sure if a 1/1 with protection can absorb all the damage a 10/10 trample would deal

I'm pretty sure Unsubstantiate is the only bounce spell that targets the stack in Duels

They have to assign "lethal" damage to blockers, which is damage equal to the blockers toughness ignoring any prevention effects, including protection. So beyond not killing the blocker the rules do not interact.

The trampler needs to assign lethal to the blocking creature (it's toughness) then it can assign the rest to you.

It's still technically the responsibility of the player whose turn it actually is; the player controlling them is just making decisions for them. The controlled player can't try to "forget" their own triggers (but if they do just legitimately FORGET them, the opponent isn't obligated to point them out in any situation, including this).

Not quite. You're never required to remind your opponent of their triggers, and we never rewind for a missed trigger. If it's caught quickly enough, the opponent can have it placed on the stack right then, but we never rewind for them.

There is no "their" battlefield. The battlefield is zone shared zone. It doesn't reset because it didn't change zones, just controllers.

Yep! They only have to assign lethal damage (which is "damage equal to a creature's toughness"); the game doesn't know, or care, whether the damage will actually kill the blocker (or in this case, even happen).

How does Chain Lightning usually work in Judge's Tower?

Not 100% sure! If it's "go back and forth forever" I'd say just don't put it in the Tower, but if it's just completely optional I don't know if it's even worth running.

If Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is on the battlefield does it make ANY land a swamp including hand, library and graveyard?

Nope- just battlefield. When a card refers to a permanent type like "creature" or "land" without any qualifiers (like 'spell' or 'card'), it means 'permanent'. Urborg only works on land permanents the same way that Glorious Anthem doesn't give a P/T boost to the creatures in your hand/graveyard/library.

How do I use this things 0 ability?
Can I attack with a 4/1 and switch it to a 1/4 if someone blocks it with lets say a 1/1?
Can I respond to a spell that deals one by swapping it to a 1/4?
I'm new please don't kill me.

You can activate it any time you have priority, and it'll switch on resolution. So yeah, you could animate it, switch to a 4/1, then attack; if they don't block, they take 4, and if they DO block you can switch it back to a 1/4 to not die.

If someone tosses a Gut Shot at it while it's a 4/1, you can swap it back to a 1/4 in response, sure. Be wary, though: the smart play from them is to Gut Shot it in response to you activating the switch the first time. Then, there's nothing you can do to save it; if you activate it again, it'll become a 4/1, then take 1 and die. If you don't activate it again, it'll take 1 damage... then become a 4/1 and die.

Thanks. I was just checking if I'm playing right since I only play casual.

What's your favorite flavor text gA?

Didn't mean to quote that

I don't know if I have a single favorite, honestly. I know for a little while, my group did this thing where we'd look through all the cards in our EDH decks and try to pick one flavor text to 'summarize' the entire deck, that was fun.

The most common rule says that whenever possible, "may" abilities are done. Which would lead to Chain Lightning looping forever.
So I should take it out of my Judge's Town.

Yeah, seems like the best option.

I really want to build a Tower, but I'd never get to play it.

If two Flayers of the hatebound die at the same time and subsequently return to the battlefield via undying, do they count each other with their ability, dealing 5+5+5+5 damage?

I assume if you Unsubstantiate a copy of a spell, it counters it?

both Undying triggers go on the stack at once, but one resolves before the other

so the first one sees itself, and they both see the second

three times total

Do you believe that SJWs are taking over the Magic community?

Sorta. They come back one at a time because the triggers can't resolve simultaneously; the first one comes back and domes for 5, then the second comes back and triggers itself AND the first Flayer, each of those triggers doming for 5. So 3 triggers total, not 4.

Now, if you were to bring back two Flayers simultaneously with a spell (like Living End), they would 'see' each other, and you'd get 4 triggers.

Sorta. It doesn't counter it in the sense of triggering Lullmage Mentor, but it does STOP the spell. The copy will go to their hand where it will stop existing, because a copy of a spell can't exist anywhere but the stack.

I do not.

I play Utopia Sprawl on a Breeding Pool. The opponent plays Blood Moon or Spreading Seas on it. The Splawl falls off right?

This may sound stupid as fuck, but I'm kinda new to MTG

If I have a Endbringer on the battlefield, and I want to tap him to draw a card, do I have to use Wastes, or can I use any type of mana?

Are Wastes a new type of mana, or is it just the new symbol for colorless mana?

If my opponent has 3 Spelltwine and i have 3 Spelltwine in my graveyard, then I cast Spelltwine, can I go into an infinite loop?

>Now, if you were to bring back two Flayers simultaneously with a spell (like Living End), they would 'see' each other, and you'd get 4 triggers.
I thought since Living End exiles the creatures before returning them, that return from graveyard effects dont trigger.
What about Victimize?

Yep, because it's no longer a Forest, so it can't legally have a Utopia Sprawl on it.

Hey, the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

Wastes is not mana, just like Mountain is not mana. Wastes make COLORLESS mana, which is what that goofy symbol is- we used to use the same symbol to denote generic mana in costs as we do to denote colorless mana created by things (a number in a grey circle), but now we distinguish between them. Endbringer costs 6 mana, one of which must be colorless, and the other 5 of which can be anything. To activate the second or third activated abilities on it, you need to spend specifically colorless mana, but it doesn't necessarily have to come from Wastes!

For example, tapping a Mountain is probably the 'simplest' way to get red mana, but I could also use an Iron Myr. Likewise, I could tap a Palladium Myr for CC to activate the last ability of Endbringer.

tl;dr "Wastes" is the name of a land, not a new kind of mana. Colorless mana just has a symbol now instead of a number.

Not sure how you think that'd go 'infinite' since the Spelltwines exile the cards you target. You'd cast Spelltwine Prime, exiling their Spelltwine 1 and your Spelltwine A, then copy them. Spelltwine 1 could eat Spelltwine 2 and Spelltwine B, while Spelltwine A could eat Spelltwine C and Spelltwine 3.

And now you're fresh out of Spelltwines because all 6 copies in the graveyards have been exiled.

Yeah, I done fucked up, that wouldn't work. Victimize would, or Rise from the Dark Realms, or any other 'direct from bin to board' spell that hits 2 or more things.

So 3 triggers for an undying proc, causing 5+5+5 damage.
4 triggers for Victimize (you go victimize), causing 4+4+4+4 damage.
And none for Living End. (bye)

Thanks for clearing all that up for me.

Happy to help.

Also, remember to use Shadow of Doubt when your opponent cracks their Scalding Tarn, then Snapcaster it back when they try again next turn.

They'll learn to stop trying to make fetch happen.