I am upset

In my experience with Pathfinder most players aren't familiar enough to really break the game through exploiting caster supremacy.

And the ones who were generally preferred not to play wizards because they felt it made the game boring.

>I played my first RPG
>I can now compare all RPGs I have not played to the only one that I have
Don't bother trying other systems, you fit into the crowd perfectly.

Veeky Forums doesn't even get shit done anymore

Nigger you sent the roleplayers to a new board.

What's the ivory tower problem? Is it something that got transferred from 3E to Pathfinder?

Veeky Forums is still getting shit done, we just shifted emphasis on a different word in that phrase.

wanted to quote

It's truly a dark age, Old man Henderson is mocked as a myth, nobody likes anything fun, 40k is taken seriously by the majority of the board....

What board is that?

...

I think he's talking about /quest/

quests are not and never were the same crew that plays a lot of real-life games

Pretty much.
It mostly boils down to certain classes (Full casters, mostly) being able to make other classes obsolete. Stuff like a caster being able to summon a monster that is better at fighting than the dedicated fighting classes, or being able to turn invisible, open locks with a thought, and do other such things that make sneaky classes useless.

Pathfinder took the problem and then kind of shifted it. It's not the exact same problem, but it's still very much there in the hands of different classes.
There's also some opinions that it's not a problem because "magic is supposed to be better!", which defeats the point of having classes and levels to begin with.

A good (Or lucky) group can avoid the whole thing, but there are other systems that don't have the problem to begin with.

It was actually made worse in Pathfinder. It means that there are character options (particularly feats) that are specifically designed to be worse than others because Monte Cook thought it would be fun to reward people who "mastered" the system and punish people who wanted to use crossbows. Someone who falls into one of those traps will always be thoroughly outperformed by someone who didn't go with the "this sounds good to a beginner but is actually useless" options--putting them on the namesake ivory tower.

It's not something that requires an active effort. All it takes is someone saying "I dunno, I guess I'll specialize in... conjuration," or "Wow, a bear companion!"

>Old man Henderson is mocked as a myth

Of course it's a myth. Do you really think an allegedly hardass, railroading, That GM would let someone get away with half the crap Henderson does?

Ivory Tower Design is built in to 3.pf as a core problem with the system.
Basically, the game present all pc choices and options as "equal", despite the developers themselves knowing full well that is not the case and choosing to maintain a facade.
It most often effects newer players, a la the "Timmy Card" effect in Magic. It basically exists to make people who have invested long term in the game feel "smarter" for know what is actually good and what is actually shit, despite being described as being good all around.
As for OP, no one said you can't have fun with 3.pf, but there are a shitton of issues with the system that stand in the way of it, making the game harder to have fun with than is warranted.

it's literally like 5-10 guys and they only post here when they feel horny and the threads are exactly the same

it would take 1 mod who actually spent time on the board and wasn't 1 of these guys to fix

...

It's funny you say that, since I've been consistently playing RPGs with a group I found while playing a quest over 5 years ago.
Every single one of us had experience running and playing RPGs before that.

Yeah, this board is full of retarded /pol/ shit now. I'd rather have "elf slave wat do" threads back.

My point is proven

>40k is taken seriously by the majority of the board....

No, it's just that modern 40K lore has divided people heavily, and 40K has the major issue of "the first fluff I read is the correct fluff, all other fluff is wrong." People who got into 40K in 6th or 7th view the setting in a radically different way from people who got in 3rd-5th, because the setting itself has changed so much.

40K was also never a "parody." It was a setting that both took itself seriously while also throwing in metajokes that the players would get. Rogue Trader was so cobbled-together that it can be argued (ARGUED, not that it simply "is") not even really 40K given how radically the fluff has diverged from RT.

Like every board on Veeky Forums, Veeky Forums is extremely elitist and hipster about its topic. /mu/ listens to mixtapes of train sounds instead of music, while say /vr/ will go out of its way to only play obscure japanese video games on original hardware and period CRT televisions while squatting in the basement of their childhood home wearing a propeller hat. In the same vein /vr/ only thinks obscure homebrew systems written by insane hobos on train station walls are worth playing.

What I'm saying is never take Veeky Forums's advice on anything remotely popular. Especially on such a godawful hive of shitposting as Veeky Forums - at least people on /vr/ play retro video games.

user, you are ignoring the opposite of the problem, where players decide to go with say, a monk or fighter, believe they will be good at *whatever thing that isn't the one true path for the class*, then mechanically fails across the board unless the DM expressly focuses on them to bring them up to par.
To often do people only look at the high end and see problems, forgetting that the low end is a problem as well.

Nigger I read quests too but you're just being hyperbolic

What cause /pol/ to move in?

Everyone knew OMH was made up from the start, except people who have no clue about how tabletop gaming works. That doesn't stop one from enjoying the story.

"Ivory tower" is more about putting weak options in the game on purpose, and leaving it up to the player to separate the good options from the bad. It's honestly not as much as a problem as the designers not understanding how their own game works.

You have the right of things in general. Pathfinder is a rather fragile game, but it's only broken if you break it. It's at its worst when the player who theorycrafts and reads internet guides plays a caster, and the "normal" guy plays a fighter.

This is fucking hilarouse

We definitely see a lot of shit around here these days. A lot of shit.

Even places like /cyoa/ are just constant reposts of the same cyoas. I used to love to hang out in cyoa threads.

>Veeky Forums only thinks

Here, this sums it up a bit, the level thing.

/pol/ is everywhere on Veeky Forums now and it sucks. It's literally this fucking page from Preacher - every single goddamn fucking thing has to be about the /pol/ boogeyman of the hour. As well, resurrecting it brought in a huge influx of redditors and stormfags. Moot said when he brought it back it would be deleted if it turned into /stormfront/ again, but Hiroshimoot probably cares more about the high number of visitors than that.

Did Veeky Forums ever really get shit done?

>Veeky Forums is a hivemind
This was your first mistake.

Spirit of /pol/ was always present all through Veeky Forums, the establishment of /pol/ merely gave it a name.

The problem comes from those that think it's a thing to emulate. WHM regretted ever telling the damn thing.

THIS IS BAIT
ベイットですよ
C'EST L'APPAT
ESTA BAITO, OLE OLE

And the setting is even more divorced for the people that came in in RT/2e, like me. However, the shift in lore was 3/4e, with 5e trying to bring back older RT elements (that the 3/4e crowd hated because notsrsbiznisenuf) and 6e forward went it's own way.
Also, I disagree with you. The setting was British black comedy, which most people, ESPECIALLY Americans, do not get on face.
The setting is so over the top and silly in presentation you are supposed to be amused by it all, not take it seriously, in the same vein that metalheads who get it can love it and still laugh about it.

I don't agree with a lot of the things I see here. Despite that, I still have more than one good group I play with regularly.

I mostly just come to Veeky Forums to stir up shit and make inflammatory posts, because there really is nothing to value to be dredged up from this shitheap.

How is that bait? Veeky Forums is hipster as fuck about everything. It's not necessarily a bad thing of course.

Enjoyment of an RPG almost always is based more on the people involved than the system.

I can't stand the game my group is playing, but I enjoy spending the time with the guys and we have fun in spite of it.

In the vacuum that is Veeky Forums, we can't judge how good groups are, so we have to assume they're all equal and can look at what we have in black and white, which is the system.

>Hiroshimoot probably cares
Yeah, that's why he leaves /qst/ stuck in trial limbo for months without either finishing or revoking it...

/pol/ had turned into stormfront 2.0 way before Hirroshimoot ever took over.

Yes.
There are a number of small games that HAVE gone on to production, as well as love labors like the mighty Chapter Master.
>still fucking pine about that one
Not in the way it is now, user.
When someone spounted /pol/ shit in ages past, they were either flamed or ignored outright.
>WHM
>..... not Wasteland Warrior...
Forgot who this was.

A few times when we were really fucking drunk and made some shitty settings that actually turned out alright. It got sprinkled into a fucking heap of shitty "Elv slav wat do" threads and the like.

Didn't we slap together CATastrophe here? Or am I thinking of something else?

You didn't even read the rest of that sentence.

/qst/ is finished. It's not a containment board and there's nothing left to be done with it.

Definitely not true - /pol/ is the board with the most outsiders coming to it. Poe's law in action.

Cat, also Engine Heart, OpsandTactics, Song of Swords, Chapter Master.

I did read the whole post. I purposefully chose to only quote specific part taking it out of context.

Shit, I forgot about Song of Swords that was awesome shit there.

Didn't we also put together Time Wizards? I got my group to play that when we were smashed one time. It was the weirdest game I've ever played. Of all time.

They're like the aliens in Independence Day. They've shitted up their board so much they can't stay there. Now they move from board to board; once they've used up its natural resources and filled it with shit, they move on.

There's a whole wiki for it.
1d4chan.org

Also the WoD splats, Genius, Princess, forgot the other one.
Point is, YES, at times, Veeky Forums does get shit done, but it won't be Veeky Forums at the end, but a dedicated few anons who forge the way. Veeky Forums helps, but is too fractured (and vitriolic) to finish anything.
Well, apparently, Veeky Forums is the most "blue pilled" board on Veeky Forums because /pol/'s howling is looked poorly upon.

So they come here to preach? Fucking radical.

>because /pol/'s howling is looked poorly upon
More like there's enough of a /pol/ presence and a bluepilled presence that threads just get shat up instead of /pol/ shit getting shut down

Time wizards was put together by one guy who was absolutly nuts and knew such but posted it anyway

Veeky Forums has, for as long as I've been visiting it, been particularly easy to troll. It just takes one /pol/ack in a thread to derail it, maybe two.

I ate them both, does that mean I'm a purple pill for accepting sad cynical truths without becoming an asshat?

More shitpost, like the African mythos settings thread a few days ago. Of course the belligerent invade it, despite it being fairly serious.
>he believes in the *red/bluepill* elitism
That you can spout such drivel tells me you are not worth my time. You are no different from the CONSERVATIVE/LIBERAL American politics rhesus monkeys.

It's more like Veeky Forums hates staying on topic in general

>Highlander: the Gathering
>Zombie: the Coil
>Giant: the Perdfidious What the fuck?
>Mutant: the Aberration
Looks like we did more than I thought. I've only played Zombie, though. Can't say how the others play.

that means you're green pill short of a daily dose.

Monte Cook didn't invent the concept, with this much history behind us it is very clear that ivory tower game design as a concept was a WotC executive decision to monetize 3.5.

But aren't they meaningully different? I mean we all know the Republicans are the villains here

So I'm bully fodder? Oh you were making joke

No, it means you're a functional adult and not a reactionary retard with a persecution complex.

Thanks, doc.

Ivory Tower began with Magic, user.
It was brought in to 3e by accident/intent.

Nice annecdotes faggola, really convinced me!

>punish people who wanted to use crossbows
I never really got this argument. Crossbows are simple weapons, and are much easier to get proficiency with than bows. They are for people who don't want to spend a feat to get a martial proficiency. Sure they have a lower ceiling than bows, but that's the price You pay.

You don't even have anecdotes, just insults and feefees.

Yes, and if you take feats to improve reload and shit, you're just wasting your feats because it'll never be as good as a bow, despite MORE investment overall.

The problem is that investing anything into using crossbows beyond using one at low levels as-is is a massive trap.
You're spending more on feats, levels and gold than a bow user but you just fall further behind, to the point where a dedicated crossbow user becomes effectively useless no matter what you do.

And that's hardly the only option with that problem.
Fighter with sword & shield? You're not doing relevant damage to your enemies even if you blow all your feats on it, while the fighter with a greatsword takes Power Attack and regularly oneshots enemies. Same applies to dual wielding unless you dig through 5+ splatbooks and have a specific build.
And in general everything mundane falls behind anything that uses magic as the game progresses. You literally have to limit your spell selection to only blasting spells to not get this problem.

Don't get me wrong, i had lots of fun with D&D. But a group has to work around those problems, because balance-wise it's awful.
And nobody likes being the guy who can't do anything meaningful to contribute to the party.

> we all have a good time
> everyone contributes
Well, that's the secret. People say "oh this system is great, my group had fun with it, everyone contributes" But that's because you have a good group. My group could run FATAL and have a blast.

The magic was inside you the whole time.

>That you can spout such drivel tells me you are not worth my time. You are no different from the CONSERVATIVE/LIBERAL American politics rhesus monkeys

Hey, I'm just using the terms for them, considering the argument is usually stuff like full on misogyny vs anti-misogyny, inherent white supremacy vs white supremacy being circumstantial rather than inherent, etc.

You know, the kind of politically charged shit that people usually debate about

That's true.

I've been co-DMing this group and it's been awesome fun. (Basically I do most of the background work and the setting details as well as providing extra voices because I've got more accents than the rest of the group combined. He is excellent at making and running encounters and doing character details.) We use Pathfinder despite complaining about it all the time. If we could get the players to play anything else, we'd be doing it.

Reminder that /pol/ would have lost it's shit during the Hal Turner days.

That's a misrepresentation of OP's argument, or at LEAST a misread. He's just saying that he had good fun and not endless ammounts of cringe. Show the part where he's comparing this system to the others or fuck off.

Until election time passes, /pol/ be raiding.

>If tramp wins, expect in your face Veeky Forums cartman style shit for about 9 months until SSTHTF, nevermind the approving crowd who also gathers here.
>If shillary wins, expect passive aggresive bitching about how cucked and extinct the whites are and muh rits tramples by joos for about two years.

We have it good, you should see Veeky Forums, at all times there is at least one race bait thread and one "why atheists?" bait thread.

That's the perfect state for /qst/, it has been there now for months yet the quality of the board hasn't magically improved because we're still the same posters and now have more space to sperg.

The only reason it remains there is so that the wankers that really hijacked the threads by whinning stop their shit, so it will remain a quest board forever.

Don't forget poor ol' /lgbt/, which has been more /pol/ than not for years now. All that's left now is a used-up husk, a hollow mockery of what it once was.

>feefees
For a board that hates gays, /pol/ comes up with some faggy buzzwords.

>The setting was British black comedy
40k isn't gallows humour. It's amusing because it's so absurd, but never makes light of its own subject matter. That's why it's pastiche rather than parody.

>murricans don't get it
Pardon m8, but one of its more prominent inspirations is American science fiction.

silly does not mean comedy

I find it useful, since it implies ludicrousness.

I didn't want to say anything about that because I didn't visit them regularly, I just passed once or twice and they were surprisingly ok. Heard it's going pretty bad for them but that's it.

Really? I've been there like thrice and it seemed super gay

One time I went through and counted up all the false flags and bait threads; they were ~60% of the total threads. And when I looked at some of the non-/pol/ threads, it didn't take long to find /pol/ in them. So that's about when I stopped going there.

> hi son, what are you doing?
> counting bait threads in an anonymous /lgbt/ image forum

How long does it take you to count things, user? I learned how to do it when I was three, so I've had a lot of time to practice.

I'm sorry mate, it just seemed funny. We're all ultimately on an anonymous Taiwanese Dishwashing forum so those in glass houses.

Btw, you gay? It's just that you said "that's when I stopped going there". Why were you there in the first place. Genuinely curious.

Not the person you were replying to, but you do realize queer fa/tg/uys exist, right?
(Flamboyant bi dude and Forever GM here)