Can redeemed demons be done right?

While I accept that as your taste, I am obligated to inform you your taste is shit.

Probably not by you.

Actually, in a semi-high-powered game a friend hosts, I am playing a reformed demon.
I play him as a reformed criminal / recovered druggie.
He does good, but when people start tempting him with sins he easily falls in to old routes (Being a devil, he takes the traditional devil with pitchfork and tempting mortals with sin.)
When the party paladin finds out, he acts like he hasn't done anything, he swears to Pelor! This even if there are naked prostitutes everywhere.
Finally he breaks down and cries for his repeated sins and whips himself in flagellation.
In essence, he wants to do good, but he is to good at doing evil.

>"Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestiaIs and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil"

Nothing wrong with D&D, but not every setting is D&D user.

Fair, I was just offering one of view of the thing. Moreover, I'd use demons in a similar way in most of my settings/games. They're more like constructs created by evil gods or feelings, with angels being the inverse. That's what separates them from just being another race.

You sound boring.

It's not a matter of taste. Demons and angels shall not be characters.

Every setting is D&D.

First, what are demons, precisely?

DnD demons. no. Never.

Exalted demons. You will need some serious therapy for the physical abuse the landscape inflicted, then a Sid who know the witness protection ability.

Demon the fallen demons. They might be redeemed already depending on their actions before falling.

Warhammer both types. Fuck no.

MTG demons. Motherfucker no.

She's in the Magnimar book, and the idea of redeeming Nocticula is in WotR, and I think a more recent or future book does/will also include the tiefling.

And to add to my own shit. Your DMs setting will not be the systems base setting. These are just statements of the canon settings rules for demons and turning over a new leaf.

Nope, they're literally made of Evil.

Almost anything can be done right if presented in the right way. And the right way will depend on the players and GM, DM, or whatever he wants to be called.

Yes, but they are no longer demons if they are redeemed.

no

If I were forced to include one in a game, I'd play it up for laughs: they may be good-aligned, but they still *act* like a devil - they'd manipulate wannabe villains into doing good for what they think are selfish reasons, and then laugh manically once their victims realise what they have become.

>DnD demons. no. Never.
I mean, that's canonically not the case. Or was that a suggestion?

Demons aren't characters. They're aspects of gods or fragments of spiritual forces.

Well it is taste since some people want angels and demons to be characters.

Holy fuck, you weren't kidding.

Well they can be characters. It all depends on the setting.

Yeah. That's why I said it depends on the setting, but I personally don't like it when they are because of my opinions on what demons should be.

The fact that I accept fallen angels makes me feel obligated to say yes, although I can't think of a situation where I would believe it's been done well. Although I suppose if you define "redeemed" as "not outright evil" it would include selfishly neutral demons that can have one of a variety of outlooks that I have no problem with.

I have always enjoyed the idea that to daemons wanting to be redeemed and be nice is to them as the edgelord's are to us

Paizo is such a fetish fest.

If an Angel can fall, wouldn't the reverse also be possible?

Does Cestree count as a redeemed demon?

Yes.

Redeemons?

only if a curse of reverse alignment is involved

>hellboy
>done right

fucking kek

And those people are wrong. This isn't optional. They will change the way they play or be destroyed.

No it doesn't. They can never be characters.

I bet you hate skub, too.

My opinions are fact. Reality changes itself according to whatever I choose to believe.

>After being constructed, the retriever didn't quite get the right memo.

>Instead of serving demons, it found it's way to the mortal plane where it only retrieves newspapers and begs for belly rubs.

Sure, but as transcendental astral beings their change of heart may well represent a devotion to an incomprehensible ideal beyond mortal ken.

Demons and also Angels should be more like alien cosmic horrors than spiky edgy people with nipple rings.

No.

tbf, 'hermaphrodite' is one of the random results on the tiefling variations table.

i bet you like skub, too

Yes they can.

You don't mean...THE FUN POLICE?

I honestly prefer it to demons and angels being just humans with wings or horns.

>Demons have literally no understanding of good or selflessness
>Angels have literally no understanding of evil or selfishness

Still could have room for autonomy and could have variants of grey if all gods in a setting have servants akin to angels or demons that adhere to their beliefs and doctrines 100%.

>Angels of the goddess of love and desire
>Simply wish to spread love in the sense of sexual attraction
>Have no understanding of interpersonal relationships
>To them rape is essentially the same as sex with your loving spouse
>Nothing wrong with stalking a girl much younger than you
>Have no problems fucking up the lives of mortals so they will fall into the arms of someone obsessed with them
>Purposely masquerade as conventionally good angels in order to manipulate mortals

If you are obsessed with someone, kidnap them, and keep them locked in your basement they find it romantic. If you marry a woman you don't love in order to form an alliance between two kingdoms they might try to fuck up the marriage even if it means war so you or your wife can be with your true soulmate.

> when pushed too hard he puts on a red jupsuit and runs around tempting people with pitchfork in one hand
I find this funny for some reason

That's full-blown magical realm here. Paizo, pls.

And according to it's supported in the rules.

i prefer the free will analogy myself

in our current campaign , angels are literally robots devoid of free will , thus unable to commit evil acts.

demons on the other hand, have as direct descendants of humans , free will to the point of outright resisting any attempt to put solid rules into their lives.

[/spoiler]even though i am convinced that what we call "free will" is just the experience of our mind working , and the human mind is as predetermined as a handful of little stones being rolled down a hill. impossible to get a grasp on all factors involved in practice, but there is no reason why there would be a different decision if we reconstruct the circumstances perfectly.

It doesn't make this shit any better. Actually, even worse.
I mean, everyone has their fetishes, but why they put them in the game? I think this is just me going full autistic about some random shit, but it just reeks of cheap fap fantasies.
When they described in suspicious detail sexual habits of harpies, I was wierded out, but thought to myself "Well that's strange, but I'm overreacting as usual."
When they introduced race of bee-girls that take male prisoners to procreate, and said prisoners get addicted to their honey, I was weirded out even more, but chalked it out to my own depraved mind seeing fetish fuel where there is none.
But this. Someone tell me that I'm just retarded and this isn't what I think it is.

Angels and demons dont have free will until they grow old and strong enough
Then they can fall or be redeemed

There aren't really rules for it, just "you are a hermaphrodite" and an example that shows this replaces being male or female.

They could a least include a few male rape monsters for a bit of balance.

>That whole bee-girl thing

Why the fuck haven't I been playing pathfinder... oh right, it's pathfinder.

>They could a least include a few male rape monsters for a bit of balance.
Well, we have ogres. And orcs.

I always like the "anti-villain" style "do good things for bad reasons".

>"Muahaha, now that I have saved that school-bus of children they will look to me as a hero instead of the villain I truly am!"
>"I only saved your cat from the tree so that you would like me in the hopes of getting a favour from you in the future!"
>"Soon the entire world will laud me as a hero instead of the villain I truly am, and then I will reveal to them my true nature!"

Okay, you're retarded in this isn't what you think it is.
I'm lying

I think Cestree is closer to the Japanese "demons aren't REALLY evil!" trope.

How's this for an idea: reverse Lucifer.

We have a demon or devil cast out of Hell for pissing off the wrong demon lord or whatever, and now he's full of such rage against not just the demon that slighted him, but all of Hell, that he joins the Good-aligned gods' crusade against Evil just for the chance at petty revenge.

A not-insignificant number of demons in that series really are evil, or at least massive cunts.

So what you're saying, is that a demon's "edgy teenage years", are them being perfectly behaved and nice to eachother.

>at the demon-bar drinking some souls of unrepentant alcoholics.
>"It's so hard zaihand'er'ith, my spawn keeps doing what I tell them to. Not a hint of disobedience anywhere... I can't help but think I went right somewhere in their upbringing."

The same can be said for a not-insignificant number of humans, actually. Hell, the Central Kingdoms want the war to keep going purely because it benefits them financially.

I want to be raped by something monstrous not gross.

inb4 "just reskin it"

You always can summon a demon or devil, you know.

>They could a least include a few male rape monsters for a bit of balance.
Feminist interest groups would sue their pants off, and then sue them for indecent exposure and sexual intimidation. And let's not forget that the CDC doesn't even define female-on-male rape as rape.

I guess I'll have to settle for that...

I think it needs to be hot to count.

>it's fantasy doomguy

Doom has a story?

Play the new game. DEEPEST LORE

>Doom has a story?
youtube.com/watch?v=n3LKadZ4LFU

Trust me, this is more "What the hell?" than "Oh that's hot". Seriously, their entry looks more like bad fanfiction than anything else.
It's in "Bestiary 3", p 263, if you're interested.

It depends on what exactly demons are in the setting.
In dungeons and dragons, demons are monstrous embodiments of the cosmic force of fucking EVIL. Redeeming one is always stupid because they shouldn't have any capacity for that in the first place.

In a setting that doesn't really give as much of a fuck about anything and treats them as just another race with a tendency for being dicks, yeah there are ways to do it right.

>Can redeemed demons be done right?
only if u call them "redeemons"

that doesn't mean it was "done right"

Sure, if demons are 'just' a celestial/otherplanar/otherworldly step up the food chain from humans and/or mortals in general, in whatever sense you please.

Especially if you want to explore point of view morality.

No.

Cestree counts as a shitpost

Yes.

The thing to keep in mind about extra-planar entities is that they are LARGER. THAN. LIFE. Lucifer thinks a little highly of himself, and as a result HELL is created. If anti-Lucifer gets this idea in his head that helping people is a cool thing to do, something equally epic must follow (maybe not immediately, but eventually). If your angels and daemons are just shitty ground troops in an eternal, never ending struggle between good and evil, then they might as well just be another flavor of Elves. Angels falling and Daemons rising must be events of mythic proportions, and assuming your world is like most P&P RPG worlds, only involve the PCs if they are at least mid level and able to influence such magnificent events.

Sometimes. Not all the time for sure. Not all of them. Not even the whole of them. But some times, you get a little bit of them right again. You may not even mean to do it. You probably won't, but in a moment of true virtue, selflessness, or nobility, you can, maybe, get a little bit of a dent in that inexorably evil barrier that is a demon's own existence.

It takes a special kind of person though, to unwittingly trip their way into a situation that inspires even the most vile and profane of entities to reconsider their very nature.

Demons cant redeem themselves

I love this. Poorly programed evil automatons are getting worked into my next campaign at some point.

I'll redeem YOU
*unzips dick*

Considering one of if not the most OP and good characters in the forgotten realms setting is a descendant of one of the most evil drow houses, i would say redemption is always a possibility.

It can't happen often. It can't even be an option to the majority of them. But when that one in a million actually manages to be redeemed, or an angel falls, it should matter. there should be impact to it. It needs to be an important part of the story, and they shouldn't just be redeemed. they need to struggle with it.

Nothing is absolutely ironclad. Especially in DnD. However, that doesn't mean it can happen often. it would cheapen the idea.

In the defense of harpies, i'm fairly sure they probably just copy pasted that shit from another source. Harpies have always been weird and sexual.

From some eroge maybe?

i'd be willing to bet from greek mythology outright.

i dunno the exact description used, but greek mythology was pretty explicit about that kinda stuff.

I'll just leave this here

Hey, fuck you, skub is great.

Funnily that's against actual religion, where they do have free will

Actually as much as I love torment I'm gonna argue that Fall is probably one of the worst examples.
>HERESY! Why!?
Because when you encounter her she has already been redeemed, for presumable at least a century at the point you met her. The whole redeeming story happened off-screen as backstory, and the character rarely wishes to talk about it.

In MTG Black isn't necessarily evil you idiot. A demon may not be compassionate but it can be pragmatic and pratical and not kill people for the lulz

True, but it is an example of a character that fits the description of a "redeemed demon". While i agree that in this case it would just be fluff for all intents and purposes, it does set an example for possible behaviors such a being would exhibit.