Imperium Asunder

Putting it all on the wiki edition

Previously on Imperium Asunder: This is a 40k alt-lore thread with new legions to replace the old ones, new xenos races in addition to the old ones, and a bunch of other wild shit , new posters are welcome.
Want to find out what the setting's deal is? Check out our wiki.
1d4chan.org/wiki/Imperium_Asunder
The wiki is not as up to date as we'd like, feel free to post questions/clarifications/ideas

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Ofcourse I just finish posting all my crap and its time for a new thread. Repostin'.

I agree. We should cut them. They are retarded.

Pic related. Can post more if this is insufficient.

I see the warmaster as neither. His meetings would be short. Or rather as long as they need to be. He would be concise. He would talk with brevity saying exactly what he needs to and nothing more. If people have questions he'd amswer them directly. Clear, cut, and to the point. I think its something everyone would think well of. The more flowery primarchs would take away how precisely crafted his orders are to capture what they need to. The more pragmatic would like the idea that he isnt wasting time with flowery fluff.

As for how they would treat him. Depends on the time frame. At the heresy before chaos taints gets them. A first among equals. Enoch might take it further. Later on, depends on who.

REEEEE

The way i see it the heresy didnt continue for 10000 years. The heresy is over. The loyalists lost. Its not about winning the heresy. Its about surviving afterwards.

Exactly. Its both hopeful (they survived) amd far more bleak (there is no win conditions)

Then hawks dont return to solarthey move to intercept the pursuing forces east. Interception also doesnt work unless they hit them after they Intercept the other forces? But thats a lot of Interception.

>raydon etc
Ive been away so this might have changed but what I posted was the penence quest which sends the hawks to the South and prevents them from joining most of the heresy.

possibly a few thousand with the hawks.

Council of Titan info dump coming in next post.

Attendees:
>Fabricator General of Mars (Artisan Decain)
>Acting High General of the Imperial Auxillia (Insert Name Here)
>High Admiral of the Imperial Armada
>Navigator Lord, Representing the Surviving Navigator Houses
>Lieutenant Commander Wrey of the Adeptus Custodes (refused title of Captain-General)
>Knight Templar Equerry (Name Req)
>Gene-Lord Bastion of the Oathsworn
>Speaker of the Scions (Name lost somewhere, I thought I saved it)
>The Master of Mars, Equerry to Sinistrum
>Malcador the Regent of Terra and Voice of the Emperor Ascendant

Primarchs
>Raydon, Xun, Alexios, Engerand,

Notable Topics, Who Raised them, and anything notable & Cool Quotes/Writefaggotry
>Selection of a new warmaster & chain of command prior to launching counter-attack // Raydon // Engerand selected
Role of the Custodes // Malcador // Put under Malcadors command.
Quote:
>"Of their loyalty to me there shall be no question nor doubt. I, and I alone, shall have the authority to stand in judgement over them."
Quoting the Emperor, - Lieutenant Commander to Engerand and Xun whilst they critiqued the value and trustworthiness of the failed Custodes.

The role & assets of the Mechanicus // Master of Mars // Fabricator General supports MoM suggestion to take over protection and garrison of Mechanicus Assets & Personnel.

>The nature and reliability of the Firewall // Xun // Alexios seeks to be put in charge of the investigation, the common vote however puts Xun in charge.

The Duties, Responsibility, and methods of protecting the Tempestus Gap in the short term. // Alexios // KE are put in charge of organising the defences, each legion promises to aid in some manner

>The whereabouts of Grashnak // Anders Kor // Grashnak is presumed dead.

more to follow.

>Authority, roles, and assets of the Imperial Armada and Imperial Auxillia // Alexios // Raydon is made Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armada, Engerand as the new "Lord-High Marshal" is made Supreme Commander of the Imperial Auxillia.

>The Establishment and Maintenance of the Warp Beacons // Malcador // Alexios offers his service as 2IC, Xun offers aid as well, however Alexios rebuffs saying he is needed elsewhere IRT the Fire Wall (Score 1-all)

The threat from further betrayal from within // Alexios // Nothing conclusive is determined, though Alexios does not leave the idea alone and begins work on the Adeptus Astartes (which would go on to suggest breaking into smaller groups to lessen the effective loss of a single rogue element)

>Plans for the counter attack, which would later be known as the 1st great crusade.

"Like any scholar, I feel a great sense of pride for my works of literature, my discoveries, my printed arguments. Far more than my military achievements, the knowledge I accumulated on Alexandria is my crowning glory.

Alexandria is, or perhaps was, a place of great worth. No greater repository of knowledge, wisdom, and art exists in the whole of the galaxy. The vaults of Mars, the reliquaries of Holy Terra, the new Library of Constantine, all these venerated repositories pale in comparison.

As the creator of such wisdom, I face a cruel dilemma of will. Would I rather all of my great works be lost for all time, burned by the fury of the Warmaster, or would I rather he recovered them, and put them to his dark purposes?

I find I am unable to answer such a question."

>Musings of Alexios Constantine,

Someone said last thread we werent archiving the threads. How do you do that if it isnt automatic?

Some thoughts on Gengrat I want cnc on:
How about if he's patrician, he looks regal, but with piercing eyes and teeth just a little too sharp for comfort. His mechadendrites and MIU almost give him a halo, perhaps two primary plugs rise from his forehead, one above each eye, the cables swept back over his head like curling horns.


His warplate is massive, cataphractii style. He has pauldrons like art deco beast heads, each with nine horns. He has a machinator array.
I think the obvious comparison is with Perturabo, though I think Vulkan's plate may bear some similarity.
Gengrat has more of an art deco feel to his gear than Perturabo's more directly classical feel.
Gengrat ought to look like he walked out of a German Expressionist film. He's got some Rotwang to him, I'm thinking one of the big legion icons is the nine pointed star.
Gengrat is also less sour than Perturabo. Gengrat enjoys what he does in a way that Perturabo can't. He has nothing to prove. The gates of madness open before Gengrat and he embraces what he finds there. The spirit is in the machine. The machine is the heart of the beast, the heart of the beast is full of spirit.

To kind of expand on that and raise something I'd suggested before, I'm imagining that in part, the fall of the Behemoth Guard can be traced to their take on the role of Spirit in the machine cult. They basically reject machine canon and the Mechanicum hierarchy, claiming with varying degrees of openness that the machine spirit is in all and bestows gifts.
A good example of these gifts of the spirit would be the ability to speak in machine tongues-- talking directly to servitors and automata, revelation of new designs, and odd machine empathy.
So you might have a Forge Tyrant like Pentekos Rotvang, an machine mystic, a latent psyker and techmarine who has tranches in which he begins babbling in binharic and nearby screens fill with images of new blueprints.
Servitors turn to stare as he passes and automata kneel before him.
He can even heal wounded machines at a touch.
Stuff like that.
Of course, the machine spirits are malignant, or at least belligerent and between the legion demeanor and the fact that there is a very good reason the Mechanicum keeps such a tight leash on things, they get pushed towards chaos that way.

The other big factor is the Scorpion Prophet of Xana II. They find him when they take Xana and he pushes them further down the path, his job greatly simplified by the Behemoth Guard's take on spirit.
(It's Scoria.)

So the Forge Tyrants are all getting in to funky shit and eventually Gengrat finds out and everyone is afraid he'll rip their heads off, but he's all "Nah man, it's cool. I used to mess with sorcery, but I figured it was superstition. This shit is legit tho. Listen to the voices!"

>Putting it all on the wiki edition

What needs to go on there, and where does it go?

/suptg/'s archive require manual submission of each thread, and IIRC you have to do it before the thread dies. I think the very first thread might be on there but that's about it.

Warosu's archive is semi-automated and I think most but definitely not all of the threads are archived there.

Oathsworn and Eyes, two of the most important narrative legions, still have red links. Silver Spears page is literally empty, and most legion pages don't have half the shit we've talked about in the threads.

Well if everyone wants to post what they have on the Oathsworn, ill get to their page now.

Does someone want to help me fill in Faustus' relationship matrix.

Im totally at a loss of how he would feel towards his brothers and their legions.

I remember him getting along with the Warmaster, that's pretty much all I know.

Not sure it saves it forever though.

>I remember him getting along with the Warmaster
oh boy is this the wrongest thing ever written

They're mortal enemies ever since the Warmarster 'pacified' Luna.

Really? Well, like it was said before, they don't have a wiki page, so I barely know anything. Remember there being some sort of relationship between the two, guess it was the exact opposite.

Nice. I like how this machine mysticism has changed the machines surrounding the legion, and I'm interested to see if it has repercussions down the road.

>Then hawks dont return to solarthey move to intercept the pursuing forces east. Interception also doesnt work unless they hit them after they Intercept the other forces? But thats a lot of Interception.

Wait, so the Hawks don't start heading back for Terra until the end of the Heresy?

Super important question: if all the primarchs of the Asunderverse had high school aged daughters, what would that be like?

Pls no

Correct.

They are sent away with the intention of 'turning' them when they get back. The idea being.
> raydon displayed signs of disloyalty through disobeying the pacification of the Oathsworn
> almost all of Raydons buddies turn to chaos. He is (in)famous for sticking with his buddies.
> Raydon has always been vocal about his issues with the great crusade and the Big E.
The warmaster also has the Warhawk 'home' planet (space station) destroyed. And makes it look like the Serpents did it. (Blames the other guys)

The only thing that really stops his plan, is that Raydon has a spy at the tournament of blades who reports to him the truth. So when Enoch comes and tells him the warmasters version of events. He knows its a lie.

From there he 'follows his gut' and chooses not to go for terra but to try and RV with the fleeing loyalists. Unfortunately the warp is not unstable as shit. So he gives some badass inspirational speech to ths Hawk fleet before charging into the warp anyway.

This is how
>a
They manags to surprise the traitors and buy the loyalists a little time (the warp is meant to be damn near impossible to use over long distances at this time
>b
Manage to lose so much of their numbers, even though a majority of their combats are in space. They lose approximately half / to 1/3rd the legion just getting back.
>c
They avoid the 'morale break' that occurs to those loyalists who fought on terra. (Ie klaus dying) When everyone wants to give up, they want to fight on because they didnt go through the same hell.

Ahhh.

I thought they were sent away on a penance quest for not censuring the Oathsworn, but they started to head back to Terra when word reached them of the betrayal at Cadia. Then the Ruinstorm plus other interference meant that they didn't make it back into Segmentum Solar until the loyalist forces were in retreat, and they decided to make up for not being there by covering their backs.

I guess if we're still having them fight the Warp Raiders we could have them attack toward the end of Raydon's penance campaign, keeping the Hawks away long enough for the Heresy to mostly conclude without them, but also giving Raydon his first clue that some shit is up.

Fist guy here, just came to post something that everyone already knows, Fist guy is shit at input and needs taking over or something

Kek.

Well, we've at least decided how your guy get put in his jar.

i decided that way back in i think the 2nd thread. Unless more detail got put in recently?

Yeah. The reason they are sent is the penance quest. But what was posted was the reason why Raydon wasnt straight up executed for treason.

As for the timings, if people prefer that that's cool i dont mind changing it. I pretty much only made it after to have a bit of dialogue between raydon and enoch.

As for attacking them while they are away i think it doesnt work. Like you say, it gives away the idea that something is up. Likewise it puts them offside rather than turns them to the warmasters side.

What about?
>warhawks return and intercept the traitors
>traitors call in warp raiders to c-ambush
>warhawks now have to attempt delaying actions against the pursuing forces AND fight off tricky hobbitsies -- i mean warp raiders.

Okay, makes sense. We can rework the War in the Void as the Crimson Warhawks v all the goddamn traitors basically, but primarily the Warp Raiders.

So, am I correct in assuming that most Legions had at least a small contingent on Cadia during the betrayal?

The Scions weren't there. I think Alexios or Xun has a handy chart for this.

"The Anandine Campaign is considered by many scholars to be among the first great embarrassments suffered by the Imperium of Old, and a pivotal moment in its conflict-stricken history - even if, at the time, it seemed more a footnote than anything more. Home to the Iron Hearts' father-world of Rust, the Anandine System became a battleground in late 000.M31, when the censuring of the Legion was ordered by our Emperor Most High. Assigned to the task the Primarch Balthasar, fresh from his victories in the rimward Segmentum Obscurus, and confident beyond reason of a certain victory against Rubinek's sons. Though the details of the conflict's formative days are sparse and difficult to discern, due to the secrecy initially maintained between Master of Mankind and his son Balthasar, it would seem that the Primarch's initial understanding of the campaign was fundamentally flawed.

Balthasar had known his brother Rubinek as a child failure - lord over a Legion of genetic offscourings and abominations, each one a singular eyesore before the radiance of the Emperor Most High. Rubinek's Legion was notoriously under-strength due to the genetic instability of the Primarch's gene-seed, and its Astartes often failed to reach their full potential as scions of the Immortal Emperor. Our understanding of the situation seems to imply that Balthasar had to be convinced by his High Father to assemble even a moderate muster of his Legion for the task ahead - best estimates putting the Bloodhounds task force at roughly three times the size, man for man, as the total Iron Hearts Legion at that time. Had it not been for the Emperor Most High's recommendations, Balthasar would likely have taken to the field of battle with a smaller force, perhaps even allowing himself to be outnumbered, and history may have taken a very different turn."

"The Legion of cripples Balthasar expected to tear asunder was nowhere to be found when his fleet transitioned out of the Warp on the fringes of the Anandine System. Rubinek, though spiteful and cruel, possessed the worthy virtue of caution, and, as the events to come would soon reveal, had never put a great deal of stock in the Emperor Most High's promise to leave his Legion untouched despite their genetic instability. The outer worlds of the Anandine System were a palisade formation of well-supplied, well-defended fortress worlds, their surfaces dominated by sweeping castles and outer crusts strewn with reinforced adamantium vaults. Even had the Iron Hearts been as Balthasar expected them, the planetary auxilla would have slowed his Legion greatly, the handiwork of Rubinek's sons forming a maze of confounding defense emplacements that would have allowed a far lesser force to last many months, or even years, against a far superior enemy. Used to chasing down panicked xeno armies, the Bloodhounds were ill-prepared to face a Legion of Astartes in such conditions.

In the early days of the war, few Iron Hearts were seen - a fact which infuriated many of Balthasar's lieutenants. The Bloodhounds fought an unsatisfying campaign of constant bombardment against the planetary defenses of the outer worlds, gaining little ground and, to Balthasar's great dismay, little glory. Soon the Primarch reached wits' end, and withdrew his forces from many of the outer worlds, to make a total assault upon the linchpin planet of Pelagos, reasoning that though human auxilla would be free to reinforce the world from unoccupied territories, their interference would be of little consequence if they could not hide behind the walls of their homeworlds. In this assumption, he had made a grave tactical error."

"The full muster of the Iron Hearts Legion met with Balthasar's armies on Pelagos. Though the traitors' abominable durability is widely known today, it was not so to Balthasar, and his forces were taken entirely by surprise by the sheer tenacity of Rubinek's sons. Their gene-seed corrupted by the foul technology of Rust's catacombs, the Iron Hearts possessed strength and endurance well beyond that of the standard Astartes, and the Bloodhounds were simply not prepared to face such a foe on even standing. The battle, by all indications, was a rout. The Bloodhounds crashed against their foes in a tide of bloody-minded steel, but their tried-and-tested tactics were of little avail against the veritable wall of suppressing fire put down by their adversaries.

There is faint evidence that Balthasar, enraged and shamed, challenged his brother to a duel, bellowing to him to stand and fight as a true son of Our Emperor Most High should, with honour and noble bearing. Details on the specifics of Rubinek's reply are sparing at best, and every indication seems to suggest that if they did engage in combat, it did not end well for Bornhold, who clearly did not strike down Rubinek and left the Anandine System thoroughly defeated."

"Balthasar and his forces were forced by sheer weight of casualties to retreat to the outer reaches of the Anandine System and signal for reinforcements, not only bringing great shame to the Bloodhounds, but revealing the censuring of the Iron Hearts to the Imperium at large. By the time reinforcements arrived in the form of the second and third Chapters of the Bloodhounds and the sixth Chapter of the Angels of Light, Rubinek's sons had stripped Rust's surface of its valuables and fled into the void. They would not be seen again by the majority of loyalist forces until the dark days of the Heresy.

Many consider this bloody affair to the first seedling of Heresy, leaving both Balthasar and Rubinek intensely bitter of the outcome, and engendering a gnawing sense of distrust amidst the ranks of Our Emperor's sons. Balthasar, known for his swift and total annihilation of all dissidents to Our Emperor's cause, clearly considered his honour tarnished, and was quick to respond when the time would come to correct his mistakes through the Edict of Nikaea. This second failure would only feed the Primarch's anger, riling the beast that hid in the darkest corners Balthasar's soul. Rubinek left the Imperium with revenge in his heart, any hope of reconciliation between brothers dashed, his Legion declared outcast and his abominable deeds known to all the Imperium. His brothers looked on and knew for the first time an inkling of dread, and in this dread lay the bare bones of betrayal.

Now, on the minutiae of the campaign..."

>Khadagh Tsogt, 8th Master of Ceremonies of the Blood Drinkers, Tzolkin Succesor to the Sky Serpents Legion, 'The Long Road to Heresy, Volume I'

That's a pretty damn cool story, glad to get some more concrete info on that important events.

My only problem lies with the Blood Drinkers. You guys know that's a Blood Angel successor right? With the same color scheme?
Or is that what you were going for?

>You guys know that's a Blood Angel successor right?

Nope.

Not immensely surprised, though. Blood Angels successors have probably taken every 'blood' or 'flesh' related name possible by now.

Either way, they don't have the same colour scheme, OU Blood Drinkers appear to be 100% Red Gore.

Well, they rock the Red with Gold trim. Plenty of other things you could call them though. Red Fangs, Crimson Snakes, etc etc.

I'll probably just change it to Blood Dragons.

WHFB reference hoooooooo...

Led by none other than Captain Rex Colt

Nice.
It reads like good history and I think you make some good points in terms of the impact.

Also have to say I really like that you put it as a Sky Serpents legionary's history. I think that sort of analysis is very important to the legion and upper levels of the civil service.

Hah. I guess their Chapter Master should at least have a cybernetic eye.

I assumed they'd be a bit more even-handed with their history, since they believe the Emperor was fallible as a man but is now infallible as a god. Whereas an Angels of Light historian would be all "THIS HAPPENED AND THIS HAPPENED AND IT WAS ALL THIS ONE GUY'S FAULT AVE IMPERATOR PRAISE IT 420."

O-oh.

Okay.

I didn't know that.

Personally one of the things for the Fists that could be cool to write about would be the battles some of their companies fight against the Dark Mechanicus during the Heresy, and the mad scrabbling the retreating FoM make to pick up as much stuff as they can from Forge Worlds that are not completely fucked as they retreat east.

Most definitely. I think it's something of an obsession with them, to understand.
I'd been thinking that when Xun tears out Rubinek's heart, he nearly yells "Blood for the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor". The whole legion comes out of the heresy feeling like it could just as easily have been them rallying to the Warmaster's banner, so they spend a lot of effort trying to figure out why they didn't, and to understand that, they need to understand why the traitors did.

I'll dig it out this evening.

Speaking of, Sarco, we were discussing a potential Scions Serpents link up during the heresy, a massive armada that arrives just in time to cover the retreat, and plays a role in evacuation, and then leads into the Century Siege. Something we want to pursue?

Yes. One question I have is how long after the battle of Terra does the Council of Titans happen? Would the Century Siege prevent the Scions from attending?

Nah, I think the idea was that the scouring leads into a period of severe warp storms that keep everyone boxed in for a century or two. That's what keeps the Traitors from continuing their push and sets them to fighting eachother.
After the storms subside some, everyone gets together, so you've got a couple hundred years.

Bump

Decided to do some more on these guys.

>The Blood Dragons Chapter
A Second Founding Tzolkin successor of the Sky Serpents, the Blood Dragons are one of the first successor Chapters to be formed directly in the wake of the Heresy. Like others of this Founding, they are comprised from a patchwork recruiting base of both of Sky Serpent recruits and Loyalist Astartes who put service to their Emperor over service to their traitorous Legions, particularly the Oathsworn and the Negators. Possessed of a fervent need to prove their loyalty, the Blood Dragons served valiantly and mercilessly in the First and Second Crusades, making a name for themselves as one of the more successful Chapters of fractured origins, alongside the Knights of MacLior and the Hammers of Luna.

Time has seen the Chapter transformed into fervent believers in the faith of the Jade Empire, though their internal rituals and customs are often thought of as strange and bloody by other Chapters. Their initial obsession with past transgressions has shifted over the millennia into a rigid upholding of tradition and a strong sense of historical worth, with no less than five specific ranks within the Chapter devoted to the performance, overseeing, and maintenance of particular rituals and their associated histories (Master of Liturgies, Master of Sacraments, Master of Devotions, Master of Invocations, and Master of Ceremonies). This scholarly nature is in sharp contrast to the Chapter's battlefield doctrine - the Blood Dragons prize the savagery of rapid assault and close combat, preferring to descend quickly upon jump packs and rend their foes apart, and many have reported incidents of Blood Dragons Astartes entering fiery passions in the midst of battle, their wits fleeing from them as the rush of battle transforms them into implements of the Emperor's holy wraith. Some have even claimed to have seen them drinking from the torn throats of their enemies, though few consider this more than an ill rumour.

I'm Xunfag and I approve this message.

Also like the idea of fractured chapters as a distinct class of Astartes organization set up in the wake of the Heresy. Are you thinking they're a Sky Serpents thing, or are they linked to other legions?

General thing. I would imagine some Crusader States have them and some don't.

The Knights of MacLior and the Hammers of Luna I've envisioned as Storm Kingdom folks.

IIRC the largest number of outcasts are in the Broken Blades, so there are probably only six 'fractured' Chapters max.

Writefaggotry of Oramar aboard the All Seeing Eye, watching the first meeting of the traitor primarchs. First draft, unedited. C+C pls senpais.

pastebin.com/0qnui4TQ

So are these guys breaking into chapters before Alexios publishes the Codex Astartes (after the first crusade) or after?

Nice.

I can't help but imagine Rubinek's outburst crushing Aodhán's mug or something, and Aodhán just looking at him for half the meeting with a "dude, you gonna clean that shit up?" expression.

I think these first Chapters are more like containment. The loyalists from among the traitors have to go somewhere.

It's later that successor Chapters become a big thing.

Yeah, I'm thinking that Xun is making special administrative groupings for them . They've got different gene-seed and fighting styles so he has to do something with them.
So he makes Tzolkin with a bit more autonomy. They're still centrally managed, Gene-Seed, supplied, but they'reallowed their own traditions.
Which really isn't that different from being a regular Tzolkin.
I suppose he's trying to bring them into the legion without taking a crap on their teaditions.
I suspect that he also helps them rebuild their numbers to an extent. I'm thinking the Oathsworn gene-wrights are given substantial space on Tepectitlan.

Now that I think about it, I suspect that it's a big deal to Xun that they stood with him and Jade Empire propaganda likely makes a huge deal out of the fact that sacrificed all for the Emperor.

I think we should keep similiar to ou user however that whilst the loyalists might have geneseed from traitor legions, its almost never used to start chapters and when it is used, it ends horribly for everyone.

I was mostly thinking of the Oathsworn and Knights Exemplar, though I think Xun thinks of them as falling in the same boat as the loyalists from traitor legions. Might be that he stops the practice after people yell at him for it.
Either way, the fact that there were loyalists in the traitor legions is a major point for propaganda and is held up as an example across society in the Jade Empire.
The understanding that there were also traitors in loyalist legions is mostly kept to the very well educated, where their stories are used to check ones own behavior.

Unfortunately im a terrible writefag which really hampers my ability to contribute

This was a good read

t. Balthasar

I think the big thing is probably in the daemon engines.
Now that I think of it, the Behemoth Guard probably maintains a distinction between daemons bound to machines and machine spirits proper.
They probably see daemon engines like the Defiler as a cruder thing than the unnaturally augmented battle automata.
Abomination engines are a bit different, since they're pure warp constructs.

This said, the Behemoth Guard summons freely and binds freely. They just differ in prestige.

Actually, how do the post heresy Asura see the Behemoth Guard and vice versa?

Nice. I really liked the descriptions of everyone.
Couple thoughts-- does Rubinek have a literal hole in his chest? Seems like a major liability.
Is Kashaln armed with a Lance of Longinus?

I'm surprised to see Enoch in Tartaros. It's cool plate, but he always seemed like a cataphractii type to me.

Gengrat feels right, though I feel like his head needs work. At the moment he sounds like Medusa, which feels off. I'd been thinking of something more like Perturabo or Angron dreadlocks, but I feel like he should have something a bit more menacing going on. Some sort of iron devil horns or something.
I dunno.

For what its worth i think devil horns wpuld look tacky.

...

THis. Much this.

im so useless no one even cares im quiting

Even the ankh fits.

Also, Saul Sheridan as a black man. Thoughts?

Yeah, I agree with that, hence the going in circles.

Yes!! This. You win one internet.

What? No. Just put up ideas. Stuff like Tarsis Sinister have been fantastic. I, for one, value your input.

Now that I think about it, there might be potential portrait lookalikes for all the primarchs in the Shadowrun games.

This warrants further study.

How about metal Laurels to give the implication of horns? Fits into his whole kinda Grecian theme, and even brings him closer to some kind of weird Pan/Faun. They could be implants with functionality as well.

Boo-hoo someone validate me.
If youre going to quit, quit.
If youre going to input, input
if youre going to pop-in every now and again THATS FINE TOO

Just don't be a self-pitying fool.

Oooh, I can see that. The bald mocha love child of Idris Elba, Laurence Fishburne, and Marlon Brando!

Filter-mask in the shape of a snarling beast's mouth or a rictus grin? Or an aniconic geometric grill?

Oooh, this too is a great idea. It's subtle and functional. Simultaneously works with his mask of civility and the undercurrents that flow beneath.

Who were the best looking Primarchs like Sangy or Fulgrim?

Kashaln's a pompous tit

I'd say Kashaln, Klaus, maybe Aodhan if you like that sort of style.

Thanks for validateing me Xun. thanks for stoping me from being a bitch user.

Guess ill pop in every now and then. I just feel bad for it after hearing the talk on hektor herasy, seems like folks get pissd about it.

I for one try not to compare the two projects. For a few reasons, but primarily we are different people, things will be different.

I like FoM, I like Sinistrum.

I mean, work takes me away from this for days (soon to be possibly weeks) at a time. Its just how it is.

Klaus or Faustus in the distant, handsome way until he opens his mouth. Kind of like Sanguinius and Fulgrim really.

Thanks Raydon your a bro, ill think some shit up and post when i can. let's break up the circle jerk though.

Xun is like Sanguinius on his scary days, so more majestic and aethereal, rather than pretty.
I imagine Kashaln has the pompousity of Fulgrim down, while Klaus has the noble bearing of Sanguinius, but I don't think he's pretty like Sanguinius. Klaus is rugged like Dorn.
Aodhán, I think, is the pretty one. As time goes on, though, I imagine he'd feel like he's always striking a pose.
Ooh, Anshul. Anshul is just kind of graceful and serene. He's probably the closest to the way Sanguinius is just heartbreakingly beautiful, but without the menace that underlies Sanguinius, since Sanguinius has fangs.

I'll screw with some doodles in the next day or so.

Yeah, I was just watching Pacific Rim this afternoon and Pentecost struck me as another good inspiration for Saul. Especially the whole dying of cancer but trying to remain a stoic and steadfast leader to a group of people running on very little hope. Also the whole "Those are my rangers that die out there." I can see Saul saying something like that to some Imperial General questioning the high casualty rates of his campaigns.

Speaking of the Second Sons and casualties, I saw last thread there was mention of legion sizes and the Sons were one of the biggest. That makes sense given their high casualties, but I imagine that they kinda fluctuate across the whole Crusade. Ranging from anywhere between 75k and 125k depending on current reinforcement. I think the recruitment/integration speed for the Sons is probably a little higher than other legions for a couple reasons.

Also, what's the status of this symbol the 40k universe?

>Saul as a leader to die for
Totally. I think the more he's that guy you'd follow into hell, the better it makes it when he snaps. I imagine he has a slight martyr complex. Nothing that you'd notice and go 'woah, he's nuts', but generally that he's the sort to bear the weight of the galaxy on him. He expects discipline and takes responsibility for his commands, which means that he takes responsibility for every rad weapon and phosphex shell. And he tells himself what is to come is worth it.
He seems like the sort that even in his madness, he's still a good leader that commands the loyalty of his men.
I think that's what Gengrat misses--he thought Saul would snap and finally admit that he loves war the way Gengrat does. Instead, Saul goes off the deep end with trying to end it. Gengrat finds nihilism intensely liberating and fun, while Saul finds it a terrible burden.

>Legion Casualties
Could be that they've got a resilient and adaptable gene seed, like the Iron Warriors. That'd explain how they can get away with using so much toxic weaponry and still harvest gene seed, etc.
Even so, perhaps they have a ritual after like 20 years, when the progenoid has matured, they harvest it while the marine still lives. With that done, it's no longer exposed to chemicals and radiation and the marine no longer has to worry about their duty to the legion's future. Instead they can focus solely on their duty to the Imperium and Saul.

Exactly. He's got the kind of charisma/presence that people on the outside don't really get but people around him all the time, that is his marines, are really invested into. From an observers point of view, killing everyone in the galaxy seems like something a crazy person would say but from within the legion it seems like genius. He definitely has that martyr/weight of the world thing going on. Every decision is *his* decision, and he fully accepts the consequences.

As for the geneseed thing, yeah I was thinking something kinda like the second. I also think there might be something about either the training/legion culture of the Second Sons, or the geneseed itself, that leads it to take quicker/by more people and result in slightly weaker marines. There's more variance within the Second Sons than other legions, except for a universal sense of duty.

If he is going to be a 'follow into hell sort' he needs to tone down on the callous disregard for life (IRT his own troops). So far he has been played straight as a numbers guy. One user even likened him to an IG General, I think Alexios might have as well. But those types are certainly NOT the follow into hell sorts.

Honestly my first thoughts of him are pic related. Im not sure if he was inspired by pic related, hence the name. Or if I linked the name in my head and have been drawing my own conclusions.

Im not saying we can make him an inspiration leader, but i certainly havent seen him that way from the previous descriptions. I do like the idea of a tactically proficient 2IC/Commander who struggles in the hot seat himself.

Bump with Black Suns warband strength:
In the height of their power, the Black Suns had over 10,000 Marines, backed up by an entire sector's worth of production and 20 regiments of professional soldiers. Since then, their power has waned, and by the 13th crusade only 2,000 Marines remain. To compensate for this, they now have 35 regiments of guardsmen and every citizen strong enough to use a gun is considered a member of reserves for PDF forces.
Despite this seemingly desperate position against the Dark Imperium, Black Suns have managed to hold every world of Calixis sector, earning them reputation as mighty warriors and enemies of man, alien and daemon alike.

On an only slightly more serious note than my last post: Say we drop the average marine from each of the 20 legions in a jungle and tell them to have a go at each other; Who comes out on top? Who get eliminated first?

Well with any hunger games style scenario, it typically boils down to a few archtypes.

1. The most athletic/strongest. - Arguably a Knight Exemplar or Negator
2. The smart guy - well go Angel of Light
3. The survivalist - Ironhearts are by far the hardiest.
4. The guy who hides and waits it out, which puts them in the top 4. - Eyes I guess?

From there its really up to the writer. One thing is for sure.

Generalists suck in arena battles. If you aren't set in an archtype you lose straightup without plot armour.

If playing hunger game mods has taught me anything, I'm betting on the guy who hides.

Typically the smart guy takes down the strong guy through traps and such, but those same traps aren't good enough to take out the survivalist so the smart guy and the survivalist have to duke it out. The Survivalist wins (its in his name) and the sneaky dude runs out last minute to kick him when he is weak.

So we have.

Knight Exemplar, Oathsworn, Paladin of Kor, Warp Raider, Eye of the Warmaster, Bloodhound, Silver Spear, Judgement Bringer, Second Sons
Ironheart, Behe Guard, Arm of Asura, Negator, Warhawk, Fist o Mars
Storm Hammer, Void Lord, Angel of Light, Sky Serpent, Undying Scion

Assuming they are just average joe tactical marines...

I'm going to say either the Storm Hammer or Angel of Light gets taken out first. Storm Hammers are too loud and aggro, they would draw attention to themselves almost immediately. The Angel stands a somewhat good chance if they can last long enough to compile geographic data, the strengths and weaknesses of their foes, etc. But I just don't see them getting the chance.

Coming out on top, i'd say Iron Heart. Pound for pound they are just superior to most other legions. Im not sure how the terrain would effect them, but no Astarte is 'dumb' and would probably figure out a way to mitigate it.

>This is assuming no specialists such as librarians, veterans, terminators, Dreadnought etc.

I'm still here guys. I just don't have anything to add to any of the current discussion. Until someone wants my opinion or I have something, I'm gonna continue lurking.

Why am I imagining this as an episode of Star Trek starring an Iron Heart as a Gorn and an Oathsworn on hand to say thinks like Dammit Xun, I'm a doctor, not an ice cream truck!

That's the standard Oathsworn reponse to anything post heresy. Every single one of them has at least some medicinal knowledge to rival an apothecary in an area, their real apothecaries are the only ones who truly know how this whole geneseed shit, and they're all inherently bitter, jaded fucks after getting so rekt by chaos its inplanted into their genes like the Black Rage.

Hell I think it was thrown out in additional to being Nam vets once implanted, they have flash backs to Terra and all thr terrible, sanity crushing horrors that were unleashed by Faustus and Chaos at the end. Probably come back from it unlike Death Company because there are so few, but they really just fuck shit up like nothing else when under a flash back.

Terra really needs to be expounded on how fucking horrible it was to be on a proto-daemon world at its peak of the siege.

Sarco obviously. Dat chassis.

For real though. Aodhan, I think, is the breathtakingly good looking one.

I imagine Klaus and Raydon as ruggedly handsome. Anshul as the prettiest, in an androgynous way, but also sort of disconcerting. Kashaln is for moustache enthusiasts.

Do they have their weapons?

If not, I'm gonna say it comes down to an Iron Heart, a Warhawk, and a Negator.

Depends on if someone can cheat using psychic powers, tech powers, or Emperor forbid an Oathsworn uses their bio powers to just phage nuke the entire god damn arena.

>The Angel stands a somewhat good chance if they can last long enough to compile geographic data, the strengths and weaknesses of their foes, etc. But I just don't see them getting the chance.

>in a jungle

Bloodhound dude would be 100% in his element. Armed with simple weapons, on his own, and told to hunt down Astartes in a thick jungle?

That's literally what he did to earn his geneseed in the first place.

Not to mention that, pre-heresy, the Bloodhounds had more experience fighting other Astartes than anyone else.

You mean getting their asses handed to them by other Astartes.
>laughing Iron Hearts.png

I'd say they aren't even close to being experts in that.
>Black Suns
>Mostly ignored
>80% losses despite constant recruitment and 20 regiments of guardsmen supporting them
Sure, Black Suns have thus far "won" every fight (survival and holding ground is enough for them) but have taken casualties they can ill afford.

>>laughing Iron Hearts.png

someone should shoop this guy's armor to be bronze and green

At some point I need to write a short scene with a bunch of Negators underestimating Alexios and getting their heads caved into their chests by his sick space pope stick.

Not to mention they're getting drawn into a full scale war with the Ash Bearers.

And to rub it in, Ash Bearers' fire is the bane of Black Suns' shadow powers. The rest is still there, but that's a large chunk of their tricks negated, or at least diminished.

Nice. So I suppose this would imply that as the treachery is revealed and the daemons are unleashed, Faustus opens the seals and unleashes ruin upon Terra.
If I'm not mistaken, the Emperor is down in the vaults, fighting in the Webway.

So does Faustus form a second front from Luna? Or does he change the orbit so that it's over the Imperial Palace?

Either way, I imagine the whole thing looks like a power metal album cover on scary drugs.
Are we still thinking Faustus is tinkering with nulls?

And then there's also the question of how each legion deals with their Oathsworn post heresy. Xun brings them into the legion and even in M41 the Regent of Tepectitlan has an honor Guard of Oathsworn and Knights Exemplar.

I imagine everyone has a Cadre of Oathsworn Genewrights, though generally kept on a shorter leash.

Probably changes orbit, since he was already getting ready to colony drop Luna.

Faustus was tinkering with everything but definitely nulls.