What is the best system for granting players access to spells or abilities?
You have systems where you get many spells but only have access to X per day. Or you have things like 4e, where you have to pick spells from a list and permanently learn them every level.
What, in your opinion, is the best method of handling spell progression?
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Allways depends on the setting and the kind of magic.
If you want to go for the "cultist/witchcraft/european folklore magic" style, GURPS Ritual Path Magic is pretty fucking unbeatable
I never cared about spell lists and D&D style magic. I don't like that kind of setting nor system and thus can't really say much about that, just that Zadmar's Vancian Magic system for Savage Worlds is pretty bearable.
GURPS Powers is pretty fucking great if you need to cover just about everything under the sun that can be described as "inherent magic/powers with lots of custom stuff", but not so much for "magic" magic IMO
A good system for freeform or real magical magic does not exist yet in I think, or at least I have yet to find one. They are either have severe quadritical wizardry problems, are boring, to narrow, too verbose, or not crunchy enaugh. There are just none that satisfy me.
I personally like dungeon world's rituals.
You know every spell, per say, and it just breaks down to getting all the prerequisite materials and planning in order.
Also any given effect exists, for a dm determined cost.
Have you checked out Ars Magica?
Not that guy, but I'm actually kind of interested in Ars Magica, what with hearing it brought up fairly often whenever the subject of magic systems comes up. What's nifty about it? Tried googling it before, but all that got me was the basic game info page without much system detail.
Vancian casting is best casting.
Other user here, I'll just go over the basics.
In Ars Magica, your measure of magical prowess is split into two main groups, Techniques and Forms. Techniques are how you interact with things, e.g. creation (Creo) or moving (Rego). Forms are what you're trying to affect, e.g. air (Aurum), plants (Herbam) or the mind (Mentem). Every mage starts with basic knowledge of how to use them, and can improve them over time.
To cast a spell, you take (usually) one of each. If you have it learned as a formulaic spell, you roll a d10, add your stamina, the score of the technique and the form, and any other bonuses, and compare it to the level of the spell. If you exceed it, it goes off fine. If you're within 10 under, then you cast it but take a level of fatigue. Any further, and it doesn't happen. You can also spontaneously cast, but your casting score is either divided by 5, or you spend a fatigue level and it's divided by 2.
I'll explain spell creation and give an example in the next post, since I feel like I'm just running on and on without giving a good explanation.
There are two types I prefer.
1. You can do pretty much whatever you want but are limited to a power supply of sorts (mana, power points, etc). This allows for simple spells to be used frequently and more complex or power spells to be used sparingly. The best way to use this is to have a real world charge time to be honest. You get a power point of X amount of mana back every fifteen minutes without using outside help.
2. Dicking around magic is basically free.
Spells are created in a few parts. First, there's choosing the Technique and Form that apply. Usually, it's fairly straightforward (creo ignem to light fires, muto terram to make stones with strange properties). Next, there's a set of guidelines for the base level of a given pair, going from base level 1 (making a plant grow well, creating moonlight) and on pretty much indefinitely (I think the guideline for reanimating a corpse is ~50). Next, you apply the range, duration, and target for it. Each of them is set up in steps, so a range of Sight (anything you can see) is two steps above Touch (anything you're in contact with). Each step above the default (in order, Personal, momentary, and individual) adds to the spell level.
Example because I feel like I explained it badly:
>Gaius of Flambeau finds his path blocked by a wooden barrier. Partially to bypass it, and partially to show off to his companions, he decides to light it ablaze.
>A spell to create fire is, fairly obviously, a Creo Ignem spell. The wood is fairly dry, so the base level is 4. So as to avoid contact, the range is Voice, and to ensure the fire catches, the duration is Diameter (~2 minutes). Voice adds 2 magnitudes to the spell, increasing it by 1 level to bring it to 5, then up to 10, while Diameter brings it to 15.
>>N.B.: Adding levels go by 1 until the spell reaches level 5, at which point they are added 5 at a time. It can be strange at first, but you get the hang of it quickly.
>Gaius, fortunately, already learned the spell, and is now casting it. He decides to cast it quietly (-5 to the casting total), but with normal gestures. His Stamina is +2, his Ignem (as it is his favorite Form) is 10, and his Creo is 5. His pre-roll total is 12. Unless he rolls extremely poorly or flat-out Botches, he'll likely cast it without trouble. If he were trying to spontaneously cast it, though, he would need to spend fatigue to have even a chance, and would likely end up spending 2.
what about complexity of use?
Like things that you can fling off in a fight, or things that take minutes or hours to do.
Or things that take building up lots of people, particular resources, etc etc.
That's the basics, but there's a bunch else to hook into it (casting requisites, Wizard's Twilight, spell sigils, labwork, enchantments, et c). Here's some of the PDFs, I'd suggest giving it a read regardless of whether you want to play it, as it gives a lot of neat ideas for brazen theft into other systems.
>mediafire.com
e.g. for those extras:
Formulaic spells and spontaneous spells are combat-round scale. For longer things, there's rituals which consume Vis (general magic "stuff") and require 15 minutes per magnitude of the spell. They're longer and costlier, but
>they can use the target "Boundary"
>they can use the duration "Year"
>they can be over level 50
>Creo spells cast via ritual are permanent
For lots of people, one of the unique spells is "Wizard's Communion", which lets lots of magi pool their effort to make casting much easier, but botches more disastrous.
Objectively false, 3aboo
>his Ignem (as it is his favorite Form) is 10
Clarifying this, your scores can go well over 10, but for just out of apprenticeship, having your best score be 10 is a bit focused, but not absurdly so.
This, and everything following, is indeed very nifty. Thank you, user, you've done well (I'll assume) at explaining the system, enough so that I really do think I'll have to make an effort to put it on my list of things to study.
Realistically I'd have to say the earlier D&D systems. I know, I know, supposedly I'm picking the worst one. But Vancian magic and simple unlocking of abilities by level is all pretty simple and allows you to jump into the game quickly, which is what most games call for. Everyone wants to just play.
At the other end of the spectrum *if* you want to make the game all about the magic system itself then Ars Magica is my choice. I mean that's the point of the game. It's in the name. Use all the rules you can find about magical research, make it take forever, make it interesting. This is the way to go if you've got time. If you have no time and just want to mess around then go with the above option.
>Or you have things like 4e, where you have to pick spells from a list and permanently learn them every level.
4e is actually a little more involved than that.
You have a "combat" spell list, which are spells fast enough you can use effectively in combat (because they are fast to cast), but their effects are temporary (except if it kills stuff, I guess). These are the spells you have mastered.
But if you need spells that do something larger (say, teleport you to another plane) you also have rituals that take a longer time to use and aren't combat applicable (unless you are that one wizard PP). You don't "know" these spells, you need a ritual book to perform them, and they take multiple minutes and reagents and stuff to do. These take a skill roll as well.
My ideal system would be a tweaked version of this, with each spell school having its own skill (with restrictions on what it can achieve, little overlap with other schools, and no replacing other skills if possible), a list of combat spells you have (depending on character), and a list of rituals you can use the skill to perform, with the option to tweak/improvise rituals if needed.
That means you can have enjoyable in-combat without having to get fiddly with spells, but you also get a concrete out of combat spell system for when you need magic for utility purposes.
So would you know all those spells or, like 4e, must you choose which ones you know and leave others by the wayside?
The combat spells you'd have to pick which ones you master, but I guess swapping from a book (like 4e wizards) could work too.
Although, the more likely solution I'd go with is that your combat spells would be just your trappings for a generic power system.
That didn't originated on dungeon world
But whatever
My brudda.
I've always gone back to it because it's got a fairly simple way to balance magic. Powerful, but limited times per day, and you need to plan ahead.
The only thing is you've got to have a long enough adventuring day that limited times per day is an actual limitation, which doesn't happen in later editions.
Ah wizard communion;
cost:
4 years real time
~40 years game time
Half the tribunal in communion
80 pawns of wis
When the caster rolls a 0 and the GM just ends the campaign there
Priceless
>4 years real time
>~40 years game time
>Half the tribunal in communion
>80 pawns of wis
>if I lie, I'll feel better about myself
The way Unknown Armies does it. The best spells are always with in reach, it just depends on how much you're willing to sacrifice to get them.
There's no list. You just ask the dm "I wanna do this thing how do?" And he tells you.
So, I mean, I guess technically? It's basically giving codified rules for freeform. It's not a system i've seen any other modern rpg use though.